CGI, the good, the bad, what do you think.

[Red 75]

I would say that Two-Face is one of the best CG effects of all time, but I still have a hard time saying it's better than Davy Jones. On the whole though TDK has much better effects than any Pirates of the Caribbean films, for the reason Charlie Brigden brought up; they don't feel like special effects. And there are some scenes in the movie, like when the Bat-pod emerges from the Tumbler, that are entirely CG.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

They went a little overboard with Two-Face. Fire wouldn't do that to your face.

That wasn't the point. He wasn't just some guy who got half his face burnt off. He had to become one of the most recognized characters in the Batman canon while also having the appropriate gritty realistic look of the rest of the film.

Well they messed up the character. He wasn't Two-Face, he was a pissed off Harvey Dent.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

thats the geekiest comment of the day.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

How? I don't know much about the Batman universe, but I know Two-Face is supposed to have a split personality.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

just assume it didn't come from you Koray and read it aloud.

[Red 75]

but I know Two-Face is supposed to have a split personality.

That all depends on the incarnation. He is often given a split personality, but that's not always the case.

I don't know much about the Batman universe

You don't say.

[Delorean90 42]

I would definitely like to have more of the Two-Face persona explored. However, I don't think it's quite the mega rip-off it could've been. The themes of chance, justice, and duality inherent in the character were definitely present. And I think it's safe to say Dent wasn't exactly sane by the end of the film. In his right mind, Harvey Dent (no matter how angry or hurt) would not deliberately threaten the life of an innocent child.

I'm not arguing that a more comprehensive, accurate portrayal would've been more than welcome, but I can't call it a botch job, either--especially when you think of Batman Forever.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I too thought the makeup was good, and gross.

[Datameister 2,044]

I too thought the makeup was good, and gross.

As previously noted, there was no makeup involved, with the exception of his scalp, which was usually CG but sometimes a prosthetic skullcap.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

however its done, its done to make him up, so its cgi makeup

[Red 75]

I'm not arguing that a more comprehensive, accurate portrayal would've been more than welcome, but I can't call it a botch job, either--especially when you think of Batman Forever.

I would have liked to see more of Two-Face as well, because I like Two-Face. But I have no problems with his portrayal in TDK, including Dent's death. On the contrary, I think it actually makes the film better, even if it was a story that didn't necessarily have to be told in a Batman movie with the Joker.

But anyway, those effects sure were cool!

[Datameister 2,044]

however its done, its done to make him up, so its cgi makeup

It's CG burnt flesh, eyeball, teeth, and bone.

But I should probably stop being right before you tell me, a descendant of refugees from Nazi Germany, to "blitzkrieg myself" again and get this thread shut down, too.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no you're just a asshole. you had no reason to bring that up.

however it was done it looked good, not real, but good.

I just can't imagine a person being able to function with such horrific injuries.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Datameister's the asshole?

[Wojo 2,453]

I just can't imagine a person being able to function with such horrific injuries.

That's the point I was trying to make. If you burn your hand on a hot stove, you're not going to be lifting heavy objects for a while. If you burn the skin off of your hand entirely, you're probably going to be in a burn unit for a long while.

Now let's burn the skin off exactly half of your face. Are you going to be up and about, dancing and singing and eating and taking revenge on Julia Roberts' estranged brother and pointing guns at little kids? Nope.

But in a comic book world, you just might.

[Jeshopk 8]

I am sure it must have been covered in the thread, but I found the use of practical effects/prosthetics/puppets mixed ith CG in Hellboy 2 to be the best way to go for fantasy/sci fi. If Lucas took this approach more for the Prequels, then it would haved looked more convincing.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I just can't imagine a person being able to function with such horrific injuries.

That's the point I was trying to make. If you burn your hand on a hot stove, you're not going to be lifting heavy objects for a while. If you burn the skin off of your hand entirely, you're probably going to be in a burn unit for a long while.

Now let's burn the skin off exactly half of your face. Are you going to be up and about, dancing and singing and eating and taking revenge on Julia Roberts' estranged brother and pointing guns at little kids? Nope.

But in a comic book world, you just might.

TDK however, tries very very hard to take itself out of a comic book world.

[Wycket 36]

I just can't imagine a person being able to function with such horrific injuries.

That's the point I was trying to make. If you burn your hand on a hot stove, you're not going to be lifting heavy objects for a while. If you burn the skin off of your hand entirely, you're probably going to be in a burn unit for a long while.

Now let's burn the skin off exactly half of your face. Are you going to be up and about, dancing and singing and eating and taking revenge on Julia Roberts' estranged brother and pointing guns at little kids? Nope.

But in a comic book world, you just might.

TDK however, tries very very hard to take itself out of a comic book world.

Actually, Nolan calls it Hyper-Realism. Meaning he can make it as realistic as he wants, but can still work in regards to the a comic book story/situations. That's what makes TDK so good in my eyes, that in one part its a completely believable crime drama, but you still have a guy flying around Hong Kong or another with half his face burnt off. It not only allows respect for the stories and characters (which Schumacher never had) as well as telling a truly great story.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

TDK plays more like a crime drama than any comic book movie.

[222max 1]

TDK plays more like a crime drama than any comic book movie.

Exactly. And I think that's what gives the story and the film itself such gravity. It's not that far removed from this reality versus a fantasy reality such as we've seen in the pre-Nolan Batmans. Nolan was dealing with some pretty heady issues in The Dark Knight; madness, obsession, the illusion of order and civility, true morality and self sacrifice vs. corruption and selfishness. The fight for "Gotham's soul", (being sustained in the hope in something truly moral and good or giving into corruption and the primal instinct to survive at all costs) as he Joker put it, is something which plays itself out in any number of real governments and cities around the world. For those themes to truly have resonance I think The Dark Knight had to feel more real, more urgent than what it would have been in the far-removed, typical comic universe.

But they still had to ask questions like, "what does Batman look like? what does the Joker look like? what does Two-Face look like?". They had to make them fit into this quasi-realistic Gotham that they've created. It's realistic in a way that you really fear what is happening at a gut level but not so grounded in reality that the larger than life heroes and villains don't fit. So when it came to Harvey Dent I think they had to make him look like the Two Face from the comics but execute it so that it wasn't some stylized mask but almost an anatomical deconstruction of Harvey's face. Something that looked real even though a real person could not have survived such disfigurement. It's a visual representation of the distorted madness that Harvey has been pushed into by the Joker.

[Wojo 2,453]

That's a fair assessment. It's why we probably won't see stuff like a Batwing in Nolan's Gotham City. TDK focused more on the characters of the comic book world than the goofy stuff that Batman Begins did, namely the flower with such precise mind-altering effects, and a gun that vaporizes liquid water in a pipe but ignores the liquid water that makes up 70%-80% of each human being.

And at their most basic elements, the characters of the comic books featured in TDK are human beings with human problems, which means that cool CGI gadgetry would not be needed as a crutch for the story, just to help it out here and there. If you didn't notice it, then they did a good job at keeping it real. It's not like TDK could have become Law and Order at any moment, and become real world, because it still had a man in a batsuit jumping around. But it got closer than any other comic book movie ever did.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I think the CGI in Revenge of the Sith looks a lot more convincing than in The Phantom Menace. Aside from the (admittedly) phenomenal Pod Race sequence I find most of the CGI in TPM to be too cartoony, two-dimensional and sterile-looking. Everything looks so much more solid and real in ROTS.

An example of poor CGI would be the wolves in the Gilliam film "The Brothers Grimm", although I'm sure that was more to do with budget than anything else. Although having said that Gilliam has always gone for larger-than-life effects that aren't supposed to look too realistic, but rather add a sense of the unbelievable and fantasy to his films.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I think the CGI in Revenge of the Sith looks a lot more convincing than in The Phantom Menace. Aside from the (admittedly) phenomenal Pod Race sequence I find most of the CGI in TPM to be too cartoony, two-dimensional and sterile-looking. Everything looks so much more solid and real in ROTS.

No surprise, considering it was released 6 years later.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, the CGI in ROTS is generally pretty impressive. Suffers from overuse, of course, but no more so than in the other prequels. There were some really genuinely beautiful shots.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I watched a few minutes of ROTS on TV a few weeks ago, I was shocked how fake the backgrounds looked.

[John Crichton 4]

The more "traditional" shots in RotS are usually really good. When CG is being used to substitue a physical set it's usually not so good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not good at all.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

This entire arrival sequence blew me away when I first saw it. I think it's beautiful.

[Datameister 2,044]

I agree. It's a nice combination of CG and modelwork, for the most part.

I just really wish AOTC and ROTS didn't suffer from this constant zooming syndrome. Almost every shot in which the camera is not moving employs a slow, steady zoom in or out. It's very annoying and unnecessary once you notice it, and it can lend an almost CGI-like appearance to shots that don't even employ much CGI.

[John Crichton 4]

Yes, that's some of the good stuff. Mustafar is also very impressive, helped by the fact that they got some real life plates (from Lanzarote, the same location that the Peter Davison Doctor Who story Planet of Fire used).

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, the photographic lava effects help, as well as the fact that they built a huge model with practical lava effects and everything. I'm still amazed by that thing.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I honestly think Mustafar is the coolest "effects" planet ever made.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Spielberg's sequence in 'Revenge of the Sith' where Anakin and Obi-Wan duel out onto the bridge, then temporarily stop fighting and run for cover as it collapses, is one of the coolest modern FX scenes ever. The combination of the practical models, CG and real lava photography just works for me (not to mention I love the idea that they both just stop fighting at the same time and retreat as all hell breaks loose, plus the music). It's just as I expected that fight to have been, on some bridge or something over a pool of lava/volcano. Of course then they ride the lava on the platforms...God.

[Datameister 2,044]

I honestly think Mustafar is the coolest "effects" planet ever made.

Felucia was pretty freaking beautiful (for all of 20 seconds).

[Delorean90 42]

The more "traditional" shots in RotS are usually really good. When CG is being used to substitue a physical set it's usually not so good.

I don't have any idea how the shot of R2 catching the communicator in Grievous's ship made it into the film in the state it's in.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Yes, that's some of the good stuff. Mustafar is also very impressive, helped by the fact that they got some real life plates (from Lanzarote, the same location that the Peter Davison Doctor Who story Planet of Fire used).

cool. but i think they filmed most of it at Mount etna in sicily.

Mustafar beats the crap out of Mount and Crack of Doom

[Wojo 2,453]

There's no reason that a single volcano should look more impressive than an entire planet of lava.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

And the final duel in the lava pit looked fake in ROTS.

At least Frodo was sweating.

[Wojo 2,453]

Let's be serious here. You've got two short barefooted men fighting with a hairless toad inside of a volcano, where it's got to be hot enough to boil them painfully. Then you've got two men dueling with laser swords over top of lava, using anti-gravity pods, floating robots, rocks, and metal supports.

How can you propose that either situation not look fake, when your brain clearly knows that neither situation could possibly be real?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But in ROTK it looks more real nevertheless.

[Datameister 2,044]

I disagree. I found those scenes in ROTS more convincing, on the whole.

[Wojo 2,453]

ROTK looks more real because we find a volcano more true to life than jumping over fields of flowing lava that are massively spectactular for no reason.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, I agree with you.

[Ollie 1,059]

Let's be serious here. You've got two short barefooted men fighting with a hairless toad inside of a volcano, where it's got to be hot enough to boil them painfully. Then you've got two men dueling with laser swords over top of lava, using anti-gravity pods, floating robots, rocks, and metal supports.

How can you propose that either situation not look fake, when your brain clearly knows that neither situation could possibly be real?

Because ROTK is a much better film.

[Wojo 2,453]

You cannot defend an objective argument with a biased judgment. On the fundamental level, I agree with you, but even truly sucky films can still have spectacular special effects that immerse you in their sucktasticness. The two aspects are mutually exclusive.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Yes, I agree with you.

Me too, though I think LOTR was trying to go for more realism than Star Wars simply because much of Middle Earth is based on a sort of fantasy version of ancient civilizations from human history. My only gripe with the Mount Doom sequence is that Gollum didn't start burning/screaming when he landed in the lava. Anakin sure as hell did!

[Datameister 2,044]

Meh...maybe that scene from ROTK was more convincing. I haven't seen it in a while. (I actually prefer ROTS as a film.) In any case, the effects of the ROTS scene did not bother me in theaters or on DVD. Actually, they DID bother me - but that's only because it was so disturbing to watch Anakin burn, even when I was expecting it!

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

But in ROTK it looks more real nevertheless.

the lava looks like crap. Orange crap.

It is a fact as much as it could be considered a fact that ROTK is a better movie than ROTS.

Let's be serious here. You've got two short barefooted men fighting with a hairless toad inside of a volcano, where it's got to be hot enough to boil them painfully. Then you've got two men dueling with laser swords over top of lava, using anti-gravity pods, floating robots, rocks, and metal supports.

And we forget the pads have personal shield generators. That's why they dont melt. And their hair is sweaty.

ROTK looks more real because we find a volcano more true to life than jumping over fields of flowing lava that are massively spectactular for no reason.

The earth was 'masively spectacular' once.

damn, i just always tease comparing SW with LOTR, and we end with the neverending discussion.

We are sooooo predictable...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

who really cares which looked more real at least ROTK has a story thats worth following. In the end if the story is great you can follow even if the effects arn't, as opposed to having great effects but a story and characters that no one cares about.

ROTK>rots

[Wojo 2,453]

My only gripe with the Mount Doom sequence is that Gollum didn't start burning/screaming when he landed in the lava. Anakin sure as hell did!

I was going to suggest that if Gollum was holding the Ring that it would protect him from the fire. But that didn't stop Isildur from cutting it off Sauron's hand in the first place. So the Ring doesn't give its wearer any kind of personal shield.

Cartoon physics, perhaps? You don't fall until you look down? You don't burn up until you submerge into the lava?

Aside from trying to avoid the visual trauma of being burned alive, maybe PJ was just trying to end that sequence without fire. I know that if you stick paper into liquid solder it will not catch flame. Lava is much hotter and Gollum is a lot more moist than paper, so it's not a very good analogy.