Do you hate Howard Shore now?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

After skimming through the Oscar thread I have again come across some comments by people why for some reason think Howard Shore did not deserve the Oscar for Best score, because John Williams was deprived of so many Oscars for his franschise scores (4 star wars films, 3 Indy films, 2 Potter films...etc)

I've always failed to see the logic in who so many people insist of comparing oscarwinning films or scores with each other. ( Titanic score is not as good as Star Wars, so it does not deserve an Oscar!)

For me, if the Oscars have any value, it's because it attempts to compare film that were released in a given year.

The fact that Titanic won more Oscars then Schindlers List does not automatically make Titanic a better film then SL, since they won in different years.

People who loooove the Owcars overrate their importance, but people who piss about the Academy every year overrate them even more i guess.

Howard Shore has won 2 oscars for Best Original Score for 2 films belonging to a single franchise, This is something that I think has never happened before.

Some people might say that Howard Shore achieved something that John Williams never did.

But I say that the Academy GAVE Howards Shore something they have never given John Williams.

It has nothing to do really with either composer, and it is all kinda a coincidence.

I think Howard Shore did an AMAZING job with these 3 scores, and i've respected and enjoyed some of his work before I ever heard his LOTR.

And he's certainly a composer i'll be looking into in the future.

But for me John Williams is still there, Howard Shore did not replace him for me, he was just added to the variety of composers who's work i enjoy.

On some days I think Jerry Goldsmith is better then both of them, and how many Oscars did they give him?

Thanks for letting me rant.

Stefan.

[Morlock 11]

I am a big Shore fan. But I don't think the three scores are all that amazing.

I don't think Goldsmith ever had better 'days', even though he has had better scores (but that is a very rare event IMO).

I blame the acadamy for the stupid decisions, not Shore for winning.

[Lurker 5]

No, I don't hate him.

Neil

[Ren 75]

i don't hate him. it's just luck

[King Mark 3,631]

I'd say a combination of the first 3 reasons,but it's not really Howard Shore's fault,he just won,it's the Academy...I still think A.I. should have won in 2002,and that ESB should have won in 1981,and that Williams should have won for for at least one of the Indy scores.

Still,it was more than talent that made Shore a winner last night,he was very very very very lucky.Lucky to be associated to a franchise that was destined to clean up everything last night,lucky that the state of film music has besome so generally dreadfull and generic(thanks to Hans Zimmer and friends in the past few years) that there really isn't much cometition anymore if you go slightly above painting by number.The whole standard of judjing Film Scores has changed as it sounds less and less like music and generic wallpaper for the special effects.

There is also no way to compare the intricacy and brilliance of the Star Wars OT scores scores to any of the LotR scores.I have been listening to the SW scores repeatedly for 25 years,and' i'm still not bored with them...and I'm having trouble making it through the LotR scores ONCE(FotR is boring to death),even if I am really trying to like them,because I really want a new composer to eventually take the place of the old masters(Goldsmith and Williams).

Of course I expect you to like these scores,as they are straight from the Horner's soundscape style of Braveheart,Glory,Apollo 13,plus some Barry's Wall of Sound approach of Dances with Wolves,but with less good thematic material than those 2 composers are capable of

K.M.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

How do you merge the second and the fourth answers together?

[Hlao-roo 389]

How can you hate the Dean of Film Music? That would be an affront to the entire profession.

[Gizmo2k4 0]

I'm really curious what Williams would have made of Lord of the Rings.. and would he have won the awards too if he was the composer instead of Shore?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well they were looking for a composer that was willing to commit to the project for a number of years, Williams schedule just does not allow for this, even if he wanted to.

Williams was just never an option.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

where is no,

because no I don't hate him.

[Morlock 11]

I don't know what he'd do. Shore's work was perfect, but my point of contention is that I don't think it works on the CD nearly as well as in the movies. And there are simply not too many tracks I enjoy listening to.

And he wouldn't have won the award. They don't really like him, they just nominate him for the sake of tradition. Only in the face of undeniable genius and a real classic score will they concider giving it to him, and even then they usualy haven't. Oh, and the music branch is a bunch of idiots stuck in a room thinking what will make them look the best.

[King Mark 3,631]

On the other hand,what I do admire about Shore is that he is willling to re-tool and write new music for the various edits of the movie in the long run...like new music for new scenes the Extended Editions...now that's dedication,and even Williams does not go that far.Maybe the Star Wars SE would suck less Williams he had done that,or TPM if had managed somehow to find the time to re-work his music to the last edit before release of the movie,or AotC,if he made the time to write music for the completed Geoenosis battles even if it was a tight schedual.

In that regard Williams dissapoints me a bit,especially since his partially incomplete scores for AotC and CoS.

K.M.

[Morlock 11]

Well they were looking for a composer that was willing to commit to the project for a number of years, Williams schedule just does not allow for this, even if he wanted to.

Williams was just never an option.

And recently he has only extremely rarely worked with unestablished directors. Probably the strangest partner he's had in the past decade was John Singleton, and he already had a huge criticaly loved film.

[Morlock 11]

On the other hand,what I do admire about Shore is that he is willling to re-tool and write new music for the various edits of the movie in the long run...like new music for new scenes the Extended Editions...now that's dedication,and even Williams does not go that far.Maybe the Star Wars SE would suck less Williams he had done that,or TPM if had managed somehow to find the time to re-work his music to the last edit before release of the movie,or AotC,if he made the time to write music for the completed Geoenosis battles even if it was a tight schedual.

K.M.

Well, Williams had (IMO) two of his best scores in 1999, he had two great ones in 2001, three great ones in 2002. I think his multiple great ones in one year are more important than Shore's one great one, one okay one in 2001, or one good one, one okay one and one rather useless one in 2002.

I wouldn't give up Angela's Ashes for a less edited Phantom Menace, or Minority Report for one more scene, even a big one, in AoTC, which IMO is anyway beyond all reprieve.

[MrScratch 294]

Lets do an Oscar count really quick... Bernard Herrmann 1, Jerry Goldsmith 1, Alan Menken 8.

Yeah, the Oscars are accurate all right... :roll:

[Morlock 11]

Lets do an Oscar count really quick...  Bernard Herrmann 1, Jerry Goldsmith 1, Alan Menken 8.

Yeah, the Oscars are accurate all right...   :roll:

I think it should be Alan Menken 4.... he has indeed written better songs than Goldsmith and Herrmann. But your point remains of course.

[Magnus 0]

I dunno what to think of the Academy anymore... it's a joke that Williams doesn't get more attention for his works than nominations... The Phantom Menace should at least have gotten a nomination in my opinion... and Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone was so much better then the LotR score... Shore earned the Oscar this year (with the other nominees it was pretty much a given).

Anyway, I don't hate Shore for this, though I choosed option #1, it was more directed to the Academy though...

[hitman20 0]

I am a big Shore fan. But I don't think the three scores are all that amazing.  

I don't think Goldsmith ever had better 'days', even though he has had better scores (but that is a very rare event IMO).  

I blame the acadamy for the stupid decisions, not Shore for winning.

Exactly.

I still wonder how Finding Nemo was nominated for best score too.

What happened to Revolutions? If anyone should have got an Oscar, it should have Don Davis (if he was nominated), or even Elfman for Big Fish.

I think that Shore winning once was by far, enough for him. If he was to win again though, He should have won for Two Towers, not Return of the King. Return of the King is severly weaker than his first two scores.

I think it's a travesty that better composers like Williams don't recieve Oscars for sequels (Empire Strikes Back, The Last Crusade). I'll never understand how the Academy works.

[Morlock 11]

I'll never understand how the Academy works.

I think the how they work is easy- it's the 'why the hell would anyone work like that' that gets me.

[diskobolus 3]

I love the LOTR scores, but dislike the fact that Williams didnt win for A.I.

[Justin 2]

Anyone who voted for any version of yes is a very selfish person. How can someone possibly hate Howard Shore for winning an award? Are you that selfish that you can't be happy for someone winning an award for a score that many thousands love? Please people could we try and exercise the minutest speck of maturity here? If you guys hate Howard Shore for winning an oscar in a year JW didn't write a score, you must hate many people, and You have my pity.

Justin -Who finds many people are so quick to say the Oscars mean nothing...

[Ren 75]

in agreement with Justin. . . .

[Melange 446]

Return of the King is severly weaker than his first two scores.

Really? . ROTK's score was the only one that finally grabbed my attention,out of all three.

It has a very different vibe from the other 2. I felt the first 2 scores were way overhyped.

But Return of the King score had a certain resonance with me. I purchased the CD too

And "The White Tree" is my favourite piece of 2003/2004. Sends shivers up my spine .

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I don't hate him, but I unfortunately will always be a little negative toward him because of the 2001 disgrace, even though it's not his fault.

Ray Barnsbury

[QMM 4]

Other. (specify below)

No, I don't hate him

Since John didn't put out anything new for film music, I'll go for the next best guy in my opinion. And if him getting two awards gets him yelled at since John got only one for Star Wars doesn't mean that other people who deserve it shouldn't get it

[Romão 2,274]

I dislike the LOTR scores. I love Ed Wood. Howard Shore is good composer, still writes for full orchestra, which is always good. I for one thing hope all this LOTR craze could gather new film score fans. But I get very worried when people sya the LOTr movies have better music than starwars. I'm pretty much afraid the new generation of film score fans will grow up rather tasteless.

[King Mark 3,631]

Really?   . ROTK's score was the only one that finally grabbed my attention,out of all three.  

It has a very different vibe from the other 2.  I felt the first 2 scores were way overhyped.

But Return of the King score had a certain resonance with me. I purchased the CD too  

.

Exactly the same for me.It's not that I'm not trying to get with it.Some cues in RotK do stand above average film music,like The White Tree,Anduril,and The Black Gate Opens.

But I'm curious about the LotR/Shore worshippers...who many NON-LotR Howard Shore c.d's do they actually own,or actually want for that matter?

K.M.

[Melange 446]

Exactly the same for me.It's not that I'm not trying to get with it.Some cues in RotK do stand above average film music,like The White Tree,Anduril,and The Black Gate Opens.K.M.

Yeah it's strange. I have noticed a pattern (although this wont apply to everyone) that many lovers of the previous 2 scores, like Return of the King the least. And "then" i noticed that a HELL of a lot of people who'd not been overly impressed by the first 2, found Return of the King was the score which finally grabbed their attention. He must of changed something in his approach. I'm not skilled to say what it is. But i do like ROTK score. I think it is much "deeper" and less pretentious than the other two. Has more genuine emotion and depth. There are many themes used in the scores, and i cant even begin to tell you the name of any of them. But one i love very much from the Two Towers was this...it's about 2:19 into a track called "Isengard Unleashed" (i have the Mp3). A beautiful and very emotional light choral. Mystical and heart wrenching indeed. Apart from that, i was'nt touched by the rest of the score enough to buy it. The 1st score did little for me. For me, it was too much how people "Expected" a LOTR score to be like. I think Shore matured in what he was really after, as went along. Finally he got it right (for me) in Return of the King, which is quite unique.

[Ren 75]

intriguing post, i'll have to listen to the cue, i can't remember the theme.

[King Mark 3,631]

But Melange is on to something.Maybe someone can come up with a better explaination

K.M.

[Ren 75]

YES!

[HPFAN_2 0]

No i don't hate him i strongly dislike him though.

[Guest]

Other. Shore sucks. LOTR sucks. Zeppelin rules!

[Kradia 1]

Shore's ok.

But the only reason he won was because of the over-popularity/hype

Same thing with the Titanic score.

Both were good, but neither Oscar worthy.

But then again, I don't understand Oscars.

[Romão 2,274]

Actually, there were not many examples of actually worthy best score oscar winner, except the JW wins. The Red Violin and Crouching TIger also come to mind. But in the last 25 years, I can't think of much more examples.

[King Mark 3,631]

edit ...beh,I guess I shouldn't be ranting like this...

There,i think that's what's bothering me

K.M.

[Guest]

I kinda think Shore won for "political" reasons. I mean...why else would LotR make a sweep? It wasn't about handing the awards out for art this year...it was about popularity.

Dan--who thinks they should only have Oscars on years that there's actually stuff worth giving Oscars to

[King Mark 3,631]

BTW,I think the only Williams or Goldsmith worthy theme in there is the Rivendell Theme(Many Meetings,The Leave Taking,Anduril)

K.m.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Do you hate Howard Shore now?

Preconceived poll.

I don't think such thing as hate belongs here and to music in general. It's music or practically a "thing" we more or less enjoy. And if I ever said I hated something, then it means I "didn't like" it, regardless of how much I may envy Shore to have achieved what Williams never had. But I enjoy this competition that's never ending.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

It wasn't about handing the awards out for art this year...it was about popularity.

Let's say, 1997: Titanic. I think this year has had a lot in common with 1997, though both movies cut different edges.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

I don't hate him, but I unfortunately will always be a little negative toward him because of the 2001 disgrace, even though it's not his fault.  

Ray Barnsbury

Don't allow for Oscars to be that major gauge by which we would judge the quality! It's just an Award and although it's had a lot of respect throughout the years, it's just that, an award.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I love how there is no "No I dont hate him" option.

Sheesh! Talk about limiting the friggin field.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I chose the other option. I agree with the first statement, but I don't hate him. I hate the academy for making an asshole desicion 23 years ago, when they gave the Oscar to Fame instead of The Empire Strikes Back. Fame! For crying out loud...

- Marc

[CYPHER 1]

I love how there is no "No I dont hate him" option.  

Sheesh! Talk about limiting the friggin field.

Reckon! Of course I don't hate the bloke. The score is fine. However I'm definitely one of those people who, as opposed to Melange and K.M., prefer the first two scores. Admitedly I have only really listened to the Return of the King score once all the way through, and I recognise that a good work generally takes a few listens at least to grow on you. I'm just a little miffed about the double standards of Shore even being nominated for Return of the King considering that recent Academy edict disqualifying all sequel scores :roll: .

CYPHER

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

No, I don't hate him. Quite the contrary in fact (no, not that far away). I admire him and think he definately deserved the ROTK Oscar. I wasn't so sure about Fellowship, becasue A.I. and Philosopher's Stone were both such good scores. I'm glad he won for Fellowship, though he deserved it more for TTT.

Speaking of Fame, we're doing our whole school production of it! It's the stage version, not screen. And I'm auditioning for Schobo. Wish me luck, as I have never sung in my life...

[Morn 8]

Oh, and the music branch is a bunch of idiots stuck in a room thinking what will make them look the best.

They merely nominate scores, they payed Williams plenty of respect, usually make good selections. Shore deserved these oscars though from what he was put up against, yes Matrix should have been nominated. But their votes were probably split between the 2 movies, maybe. If there was no politics or silly rules with the academy though, Williams would have about 10 oscars by now.

[MrScratch 294]

I don't hate him, but I unfortunately will always be a little negative toward him because of the 2001 disgrace, even though it's not his fault.

Wow, how incredibly asinine.

[American-Journey 0]

I think that Howard Shore has great talent and that his works do reflect his ability as a good composer. But I do believe that John Williams is the greatest composer that I have ever heard. But I want to make it clear that I do not hate Howard Shore.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I don't hate him, but I unfortunately will always be a little negative toward him because of the 2001 disgrace, even though it's not his fault.

Wow, how incredibly asinine.

Wow, how incredibly vague and rude. I said I don't hate him. It's just some admittedly unfair bitterness on my part; it's really not that big of a deal, and it's not personal. Don't make silly comments without clarifying them.

Ray Barnsbury

[MrScratch 294]

I don't hate him, but I unfortunately will always be a little negative toward him because of the 2001 disgrace, even though it's not his fault.

Wow, how incredibly asinine.

How so? I said I don't hate him. It's just some admittedly unfair bitterness on my part, it's really not that big of a deal. Don't make vague, rude comments without clarifying them.

Ray Barnsbury

I didn't think clarification was needed... You "will always be a little negativite toward" Howard Shore because he wrote a big orchestral soundtrack that happened to be released in the same year as another great film score from Williams. And a third party decided that Shore's score was more worthy of some award.

We need more John Williamses and Howard Shores and anyone that will write grand and beautiful orchestral film scores. Scores that will not age, despite the passage of time. I can think of many a great hack in Hollywood (composers or otherwise) that I would "feel negative" toward instead of an honest-to-goodness composer like Howard Shore, who did nothing more than write the best film score he could. All over a silly award, an award in which we know the people who do the voting are, for the most part, not musical experts or film score enthusiasts.

I can't fathom how you can feel negative toward a film composer who - whether you like the scores or not - made a commitment and worked incredibly hard to produce that music. He obviously has a love for those films and a love for his own music (something I question about Williams sometimes). The guy is rescoring the extended editions, as needed. For that alone I have a tremendous respect for Jackson and Shore, that they care that much about their films and the relationship between that film and its score. The extendeds could very easily be tracked with other parts of the score, and would be if it were any other studio on any other film. For all the Lucas bashing that goes on here, there seems to be an equal amount of PJ and LOTR bashing by some. I wish Lucas had half the respect for Star Wars that PJ has for LOTR.

In the world of film score composers, I don't see why Howard Shore is viewed as some kind of enemy here on this board.

Ray, that wasn't all directed at you... and I am sorry for the name calling. Some of these threads just get incredibly childish and today I decided to actually speak up instead of just closing my browser...

Jeff