David Coscina 4 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I was watching Pirates of the Carribean this evening and while I thought Depp's performances was grand, the music by Klaus Bedalt was plain horrid. That ubiquitous Media Ventures block-chord i-v-i progression with samples choking out any real orchestra is so damned annoying. This film could have been that much better if a real composer had a chance to write the score. I'm a huge fan of Korngold's SEA HAWK which to my mind is the finest pirate score. However, here are some other options.Sorry but my OTHER option seemed to be omitted. please specify if your choice doesn't appear on this list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Hook. One of my all time favorite scores no matter which way you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Composer_Fan 2 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I'm biased by voting for Williams' Hook because it's Williams. But I really like that score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Let the POTC bashing begi-- oh wait, it already hasbanghead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Hook, though I only have three of the listed choices. Waterworld is amazing too, but it's really a different beast.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I had the same thing when I was recently watching PotC. I was looking at it and thinking, "hmm, this looks pretty good. Nice, rich colours, great scenery, great costumes. Oh, now a swashbuckling fight ensues. Looks pretty cool. But what's up with the horrid music?" The same theme is repeated ad nauseum. It worked for the entry of Jack Sparrow, but after that it just gets annoying. If only they had hired a real composer. :roll:- Marc, who has only heard Hookof the scores mentioned in the poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 This is sort of a pointless poll, because this is a Williams forum and Hook is going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitch 58 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 This is sort of a pointless poll, because this is a Williams forum and Hook is going to win.I wholeheartedly agree with you Morn. Even if I had a heart I still wouldnt have voted for Williams' HOOK. Dave Grusin's score to THE GOONIES has THE Best Pirate Music around! Hitch Oh...I think I'm gonna burp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Whatdya know, Hook is winning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrScratch 294 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Captain Blood, though if ever a poll needed an "Other" option, it is this one, AArgghhhhh.Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I had the same thing when I was recently watching PotC. I was looking at it and thinking, "hmm, this looks pretty good. Nice, rich colours, great scenery, great costumes. Oh, now a swashbuckling fight ensues. Looks pretty cool. But what's up with the horrid music?" The same theme is repeated ad nauseum. It worked for the entry of Jack Sparrow, but after that it just gets annoying. If only they had hired a real composer. :roll:The true awfulness of the score hits me when the theme for the undead pirates is introduced. That's one of the moments when, as I've said before, I almost go into my garage and start hitting myself over the head with a baseball bat. It's more comfortable on the head than that music. And it's truly a shame, I love the movie and it has such potential for a great score that was squandered.John- who has to give an honorable mention to the Monkey Island music in this poll. You knew it was coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 You mean the awful "Moonlight Serenade"? I had it with the escape of Jack Sparrow (after he saves Keira) and the Johnny vs. Ollie sword fight in the beginning. After that, I decided to just try and block out the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 You mean the awful "Moonlight Serenade"?I don't know if that's what it's called. It was moonlight, when the pirates are shown in their skeleton form for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 4 Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 The worst thing about the POTC score is that Bedalt rips off Wojciech Kilar's Bram Stoker's Dracula score. Bloody annoying to hear a crappily orchestrated version of the original. at least Horner has orchestrational chops to rip something off properly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Yes, that's the Moonlight Serenade sequence. That's what it's referred to as on the DVD anyway.- Marc, who still has PotC as one of his guilty pleasures, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Those of you who voted Hook over The Sea Hawk really need to listen to some other composers, and to attempt to do so with some degree of objectivity. I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but Morn is right: it is unrealistic to posit a question of this sort on a John Williams fanboy -- er, fan board -- and expect to receive any kind of balanced response. Glazed eyes will simply fall down the page until they settle upon a Johnny score and zombified fingers will click in automatic response. Quite a while ago, someone came up with a poll along the lines of "Best actor to play James Bond." Why bother? As Ricard (I believe) commented at the time, a more interesting alternative would have excluded Connery. Similarly, if we take into account an obvious bias in favor of Williams, then voila! The Sea Hawk assumes its rightful place at the forefront of all pirate scores. That it yet sways members here, despite their obvious admiration for Williams (I am among them), then it must be a powerful score, indeed.Personally, I rate it more highly than Captain Blood, since Korngold was forced, due to time constraints, to fall back on Liszt's Prometheus (for CB). Besides, the theme (to say nothing of the Entrance of the Sea Hawks) kicks ass harder than any pirate music before Williams' Olympic Fanfare and Theme (for the L.A. Games)!The best music in Goonies was lifted from Steiner's The Adventures of Don Juan (although the dagger-in-the-sail trick originated with Douglas Fairbanks' The Black Pirate).More polls about pirates, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Cutthroat Island?!!!!! Currently tied with The Sea Hawk?!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Sadly, I think it's possible that most here just haven't heard The Sea Hawk.Neil - who was listening to The Sea Hawk as he voted for The Sea Hawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Cutthroat Island?!!!!! Currently tied with The Sea Hawk?!!!!!Disgracefull indeed.But soon the complete Cutthroat Island is released and then it will reach the # 1 position, were it belongs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Well, I must admit that I voted for Hook, based upon me (currently) liking it most of all the scores mentioned. Though I only know one track from the Sea Hawk (Main Titles), that one track really is awesome. I'm trying to get to hear some more of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Sea Hawk is good, but i'm not the world greatest fan of Golden Age scores, I prefer Cutthroat Island with it's modern beefed up orchestrations and epic scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Hook is a pirate score, I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 But honestly nothing in Cutthroat island can beat that virtu-f*cking-osic brass in the Sea Hawk MT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Cutthroat Island?!!!!! Currently tied with The Sea Hawk?!!!!!Disgracefull indeed.But soon the complete Cutthroat Island is released and then it will reach the # 1 position, were it belongs!Obviously, the Dutch know nothing about piracy. What are your thoughts on scores about tulips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Intelligent response. Now i'm waiting for wooden shoes, weed and prostitutes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Argh, me matey. What be ye implying?- Marc, who knows no tulip scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Now i'm waiting for wooden shoes, weed and prostitutes!Me too. Sounds like heaven (except maybe the part about the shoes).I do find it deliciously ironic that you of all people would comment on the intelligence of my posts. You've haven't exactly attained "star child" status on the power of your insights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 4 Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 Spielberg tracked parts of Hook with Korngold's Sea Hawk. "Hooknapped" featuring that rising/falling figure in the strings is right from Sea Hawk in fact. So, those who voted for Hook indirectly have heard Korngold's score before.And I agree- the brass writing in Sea Hawk is unbelievably complex, and sounds fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 There are a few Robin Hood references, as well, in the final battle. It made me smile when I first heard it (you know, a smile of recognition, as in "I get it!"), but ultimately it kind of feels slapped on, like everything else in that infernal movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTennisBallKid 17 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Can anybody reccomend a good recording of Sea Hawk?ttbk_who's seen the film and loved the score... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_burke 0 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I had to vote for Hook because I don't know any of the others well enough. If the Goonies was on there I would have voted for that instead.How about Ennio Morricone's "The Island"? There be pirates in that even though the music wouldn't be typical pirate stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 4 Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 Can anybody reccomend a good recording of Sea Hawk?ttbk_who's seen the film and loved the score...I've got the Varese Utah Symphony version. It sounds amazing. Not sure it's in print any longer but I snagged that back in 1992 along with their reading of Adventures of Robin Hood. Don't listen to the latter too much but I love Sea Hawk still.I've heard Previn's reading is terrible so stay away from that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 If Hook is included on this list why isn't Peter Pan?Justin - Who doesn't consider Hook to be a Pirate Movie. (I have yet to vote. Hard to go against Korngold.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Can anybody reccomend a good recording of Sea Hawk?The Kojian is great. And of course, the stuff recorded by Charles Gerhardt is phenomenal. You really can't go wrong with either. Sadly, both seem out of print. Maybe you can find them on eBay.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTennisBallKid 17 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Yeah, they're both OOP from what I can find, there's a couple on Ebay though. Weren't Morgan & Stromberg hoping to record Sea Hawk this year? Giving it the same sort of treatment they gave Robin Hood? Has there been any news on that?ttbk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I do find it deliciously ironic that you of all people would comment on the intelligence of my posts. You've haven't exactly attained "star child" status on the power of your insights.I've attained my stardom by the grace of my charisma and sex-appeal, my talent and intelligence.Not to mention the grace of Ilúvatar, Eru, the One, from whom the Ainur had their being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 The worst thing about the POTC score is that Bedalt rips off Wojciech Kilar's Bram Stoker's Dracula score. Bloody annoying to hear a crappily orchestrated version of the original. at least Horner has orchestrational chops to rip something off properly! You know he did that JUST to piss you off, right? Just kidding of course! But mayhaps it had something to do with the temp score and the lack of time and orchestra...... mayhaps?Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxbabe 28 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Wow, now I REALLY want to hear The Sea Hawk! *Putting that on to-do list with a star*Personally, I voted for Cutthroat Island, I became familiar with it just recently and it is nothing short of spectacular. Debney really shows his chops on that one. It kind of blew me away.I love Hook, but it seems to me more of a fantasy score...? And Waterworld whatever the movie might be, is not really a pirate score, just big epic action. I guess Treasure Planet would be a more swashbuckling score.Hey did you see this? POTC Sequels To Be Scored By... With all the great composers out there! WHY? I don't think they have the same ears we do... :roll: Greta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Well, I expect Zimmer to do considerably better than his barbarian horde of clones. If only he would pull off something similar to his "Muppet Treasure Island". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Obviously, the Dutch know nothing about piracy. What about the Flying Dutchman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Hey did you see this? POTC Sequels To Be Scored By... With all the great composers out there! WHY? I don't think they have the same ears we do... :roll: GretaYuck. That's what you get when Bruckheimer produces a movie. Well, I expect Zimmer to do better than his clones, as Chris said. It can't get any worse, right? ... right? :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 POTC Sequels To Be Scored By...Mel Gibson is making sequels to that movie?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Yuck. That's what you get when Bruckheimer produces a movie. Well, I expect Zimmer to do better than his clones, as Chris said. It can't get any worse, right? ... right? :?You'd hope not. But this is no surprise. The score for the first movie was actually (*shudder*) popular in some circles, so you'd figure they'd stick to what they think works. Stress the they think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 They think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Obviously, the Dutch know nothing about piracy. What about the Flying Dutchman? LOL Yes, quite! Of course, it's by a German composer, but it'll do. Perhaps a fitting appellation for Stef -- er, Steef? I mean, since he's obviously flying on something. Top recommendation for recorded versions of The Sea Hawk goes to Gerhardt, hands down. There were two separate suites issued as part of the Classic Film Score series on RCA. One features a stirring rendition of the main title interspersed with the love music, and the other a hair-raising "Entrance of the Sea Hawks" and by far the most rousing performance of "Strike for the Shores of Dover," which can easily come off as more korn than gold when in the wrong hands. A pity Gerhardt never put out a complete album, as he did for Gone With the Wind, Kings Row, and (obviously) the Williams scores. It would have been one of the all-time great recordings. I know I'm not the first to do so, but I cannot recommend too highly collecting the entire Classic Film Scores series, with individual albums highlighting works of Korngold, Rozsa, Waxman, Steiner, Herrmann, Newman, and Tiomkin. I can't imagine any film music lover being without them. They opened up a whole new world to me. There are also three equally fine albums devoted to scores of Golden Age film stars Humphrey Bogart, Bette Davis, and especially Errol Flynn, and a "best of" compilation which includes previously unreleased material. Do be aware that in its very first CD incarnation, the collection which features The Sea Hawk as its title track was awkwardly re-edited, with many selections incorporating material from other albums in the series... interpolated within the original suites. In other words, the two Sea Hawk suites were mixed together, not simply back-to-back, but rather back-and-forth. It may not be so jarring to anyone unfamiliar with the LPs, but it bugs the living hell out of me, and I almost never listen to it. Fortunately, RCA recognized the error of its ways (or at least assumed fans would buy the same material all over again) and issued in almost identical packaging the music in its original form, and they stuck with the classic format for the remainder of the series. The awkwardly expanded set features a white spine and verso; the preferred version silver. Indeed, the entire series as it should be ideally heard has the silver packaging (on spine and rear), save the volume devoted to Waxman, which appeared earlier with a white spine at full price, but was later resissued in the uniform silver. Both versions are acceptable, as the content is completely identical.As for more complete recordings of Hawk, the Kojian is good, but nowhere in the same league. I much prefer his The Adventures of Robin Hood, which unlike one of the other posters above, I still listen to all the time, as I have since I bought the original LP, back in '84. I actually find it far preferrable to the Morgan/Stromberg version, despite all the wonderful added material. Kojian just swashes his buckle with more enthusiasm. Korngold's own recordings have appeared on several bootlegs in European issues. Not surprisingly, he has the measure of the music, although the sound is dated, as one would imagine (1940), which gives Gerhardt the edge. At least the older version is complete. There are rumors that Morgan and Stromberg will eventually undertake their own reconstruction, but as far as I can tell, none is imminent. Interestingly, one or the other of them, either Morgan or Stromberg (which is which?) appears on a Korngold documentary I own on DVD. They're obviously huge admirers.As is Andre Previn. Unfortunately, the Deutsche Grammophon set, while attractive for all the previously unrecorded material, and while undoubtedly lovingly played, is ruined by the wallowy pacing. Previn is too caught up in the lush orchestrations and savors each moment to the point where there is less-than-ideal forward momentum. The Sea Hawk, in particular suffers. It bothers me far less in The Prince and the Pauper.I hope this encourages some of you to track down a truly wonderful score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omen II 1,236 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Morgan or Stromberg (which is which?)As if you didn't know, Figo, Morgan is the one built for comfort rather than speed, bless 'im!My vote also goes to The Sea Hawk. However, I would also give an honorary mention to William Alwyn's fun The Crimson Pirate, even if it is not quite in the same league (or should that be fathom?).I was interested to hear that Chandos will be releasing a CD of Clifton Parker's film music soon, including his score for Treasure Island. I am not familiar with it at all, so it should be an interesting discovery. I've also read that Hans Salter's Against All Flags is meant to be good, but again, I've never seen the movie.Damien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 POTC Sequels To Be Scored By... With all the great composers out there! WHY? I don't think they have the same ears we do...While I think a solo effort on Zimmers part could produce wonderful results, I smell the ever present stench of Brukheimer and his evil, evil, evil, pig-like, disgusting, pathetic, overly controlling and manipulative way of suck all the creativity out of something with potential turning it into, *BANG BANG CRASH BOOM BANG BANG SPEED-RAMP CRASH DESTROY SHAKING CAMERA AND JUMBLED EDITING CRASH BANG*Justin - Who thinks Zimmer can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Do be aware that in its very first CD incarnation, the collection which features The Sea Hawk as its title track was awkwardly re-edited, with many selections incorporating material from other albums in the series... interpolated within the original suites. In other words, the two Sea Hawk suites were mixed together, not simply back-to-back, but rather back-and-forth. It may not be so jarring to anyone unfamiliar with the LPs, but it bugs the living hell out of me, and I almost never listen to it. Fortunately, RCA recognized the error of its ways (or at least assumed fans would buy the same material all over again) and issued in almost identical packaging the music in its original form, and they stuck with the classic format for the remainder of the series. The awkwardly expanded set features a white spine and verso; the preferred version silver. Indeed, the entire series as it should be ideally heard has the silver packaging (on spine and rear), save the volume devoted to Waxman, which appeared earlier with a white spine at full price, but was later resissued in the uniform silver. Both versions are acceptable, as the content is completely identical.I probably shouldn't debate Figo over matters relating to Korngold and Gerhardt, but what the hell.The expanded suite of Sea Hawk was prepared by Gerhardt. That first CD was over 70 minutes and was what the CFS series was supposed to be on CD. That album came out and did very well. For some reason though, RCA decided not to continue with it, so instead they went with simple re-issues but also mucked up the sound by re-mixing them into Dolby Surround. So while the original album content is preserved, fidelity was lost.I'd love to see them go back to the original master tapes and see them re-mixed for SA-CD. This series would sell like mad.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I'm actually quite happy about Zimmer doing PotC2. I was never expecting anyone like Silvestri ever being part of the sequel, and this is much better than having his clones do it for him. MTI was a great score too, IMO, so it proves he has the right ingredients for a good Pirate score.But now he just has to get past Bruckheimer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturgisPodmore 0 Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 So the themes are simple and it's a rather typical Media Veantures score. PotC is still very enjoyable to me. The track titles make absolutely no sense though, for instance Elizabeth never appears in the scence with "Will and Elizabeth." "The Medallian Calls," "The Black Pearl," and "One Last Shot" are all messed up as well. Seriously, I know it's not great composing, but I find PotC to be a very enjoyable score.~Sturgis, hoping to not be hurt for such a rash post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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