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Leia's "memories" (possible spoilers)


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Having watched the fantastic ROTS earlier this evening I came home and watched Jedi on DVD. To be honest I just wanted to see how "watered-down" Jedi would look after the shocking events in Sith. Jedi, of course, looks very silly and cheesy compared to Sith, although certain scenes now seem much more important than they did back in 1983. In particular I found a depth in the scene between Ben and Luke that I had never felt before. Also, all the scenes with Vader and the Emperor have a completely new slant on them!

The scene in Jedi which bugs me the most now is Leia's revelation to Luke that she remembers her mother. Even goes so far as to say she was "beautiful, but sad". Now of course one can argue that Leia just sensed these "memories" through her latent force powers, but frankly the whole speech now seems horribly jarring. I don't see how Lucas can "fix" this without completely destroying the scene, and yet as it stands it seems to completely contradict the events in Sith. What do y'all think?

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I had hope padme would hide in Alderaan and die of grief there when leia was little.

Sadly she doesnt.

Still she was beautiful, sad.

And hey, we dont know if luke was checking if his memories of padme were the same as leias...

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I think the original concept with Owen Lars was for him to actually be Anakin's real brother. Because Obi-Wan says stuff in Ep4 that makes it sound like they were living with each other and knew each other alot.

"He didn't believe in his father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed at home and not gotten involved."

He really didn't know him long enough to even think he should have stayed at 'home'

Yeah, I thought about the Leia thing too.

~Sky

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That's true. Obi-Wan's dialogue in Star Wars implies that Anakin and Owen were brothers.

And of course, according to RotS, Anakin never learned how to become one with the Force. Therefor, he could not appear as a Force ghost in RotJ. Not as an old man, nor as his younger self. Also, the inclusion of the young Anakin in the RotJ finale means that he was not redeemed, and that Luke's efforts in that movie were futile. Luke shouldn't even recognize him at that point.

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She does not die with a pain face...

She dies after childbirth not during it.

Preoccupiedexpression.jpg

Why does Ben forget about R2 and 3PO and Leia? Why does Owen forget about 3PO? Why isn't the news about Luke and Leia told to Luke earlier? We suppose it's to protect them from Vader. But once Luke is told he has to confront Vader, then he's told Leia is his siste, and thens he is no longer protected. So many holes.

Neil

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Maybe Ben didn't consider Leia a hope because he didn't have a chance to train, or even talk to, her before he died?

And about "beautiful, but sad": Padme is beautiful, and she dies of sadness because she cannot face up to the fact that Anakin has "gone bad"

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The Force is strong in the family. They can see the future. So maybe the past too?

They can't see the future. Anakin can, but no on else can. And even he's not 100% accurate, since he knows Padme dies in childbirth, but not that she's having twins. And if they can tell the past, they'd they'd know Anakin was their father.

Face it. It's a plothole.

The entire series is now a plothole. There are just too many implausibilities in it now. It's not well thought out and as a result, the last film simply became "Connect the Dots: The Movie" and it still doesn't make much sense.

Best to just enjoy Star Wars and ignore all of the rest.

Neil

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And of course, according to RotS, Anakin never learned how to become one with the Force. Therefor, he could not appear as a Force ghost in RotJ. Not as an old man, nor as his younger self.

Qui Gon learned it himself after death. Therefore so could Anakin. Especially as Qui Gon, Kenobi, and Yoda were waiting to help him through the transformation.

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Anakin never told Obi Wan to give Luke his lightsaber. Did Obi Wan just assume Anakin, not Vader, would've wanted Luke to become a Jedi?

I've been watching the OT all day today, after seeing RotS last night. The parts with Ben and Luke on Tatooine seemed more interesting. Another thing that I'm watching differently is the redone scene with Vader and Palpatine in TESB. At first, I thought it was weird and stupid, because Ian McDiarmid delivered the lines differently. Then I saw the opera scene and the other scenes with Vader and Palpatine and it made perfect sense. Hayden Christensen did a really good job emulating James Earl Jones, because you can really imagine that's him in the suit even in the OT. (Except for "NOOOOO!!!!") There's definitely continuity.

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And of course, according to RotS, Anakin never learned how to become one with the Force. Therefor, he could not appear as a Force ghost in RotJ. Not as an old man, nor as his younger self.

Qui Gon learned it himself after death. Therefore so could Anakin. Especially as Qui Gon, Kenobi, and Yoda were waiting to help him through the transformation.

Yes, that is the key.

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Hayden Christensen did a really good job emulating James Earl Jones, because you can really imagine that's him in the suit even in the OT.  (Except for "NOOOOO!!!!") There's definitely continuity.

James Earl Jones did do the voice in RotS.

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Hayden Christensen did a really good job emulating James Earl Jones, because you can really imagine that's him in the suit even in the OT.  (Except for "NOOOOO!!!!") There's definitely continuity.

I was looking for the smiley with the big, long jaw drop. Ricardo, O Thou Site Creator, I think the above statement justifies the need for its presence in the emoticon list. Get it!

----------------

Alex Cremers

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And hey, we dont know if luke was checking if his memories of padme were the same as leias...

Are you a friggin' idiot?

Luke says ' I dont knew/met my mother'.

He didnt had any memories.

In the deleted scene, Qui gon says LOVE is the key to become one with the force (i think). Vader saved luke out of love...

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"The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

- Qui-Gon Jinn, RotS illustrated screenplay

But if Anakin didn't find out how to do it until RotJ (finding compassion for Luke), why does young Anakin appear and not the old man he had grown into?

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Yes, but entertainment is greatly improved by having a solid story, and following the rules of the universe set within that story. I think most of it went out the window with Jedi, but Sith leaves open a couple of things.

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Because Lucas thought it would be cool to stick Hayden into ROTJ.

These oversights pretty much make any philosophival debate about the SW films futile, since the creator is willing to brush aside the Rules he set out for them or ignore his earlier works.

You COULD argue it was compassion for Padme that destroyed AND saved Anakin.

The main thing about Star Wars were the more central pylosophies and ideas anyway. Not how anything connects to anything else.

So philosophical you can always be, but I agree that the many aspects to Star Wars don't always sound consistent.

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Yes, but entertainment is greatly improved by having a solid story, and following the rules of the universe set within that story. I think most of it went out the window with Jedi, but Sith leaves open a couple of things.

No I don't agree most of the story is solid enough, the important storylines anyway. It's only when you start digging deper and deeper the holes will reveal themselves (ironically this is usually where it gets interesting isn't it).

But then again, it is only one man against a million nitpickers. You will never be smart enough. A bit of slack is deserved I think.

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And of course, according to RotS, Anakin never learned how to become one with the Force. Therefor, he could not appear as a Force ghost in RotJ. Not as an old man, nor as his younger self.

Qui Gon learned it himself after death. Therefore so could Anakin. Especially as Qui Gon, Kenobi, and Yoda were waiting to help him through the transformation.

Yoda and OB1 would not be willing to help Anakin, they saw what he did, their backs were turned on him, he was headed straight to hell where he belongs.

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The thing is, even though he had a rough idea of everything, Lucas may not have planned it all exactly, and had to make changes all the time.

First, he wrote a script that was too long for one movie, so he adapted it and shot it, never believing the movie would even recoup its cost.

Then he expanded upon that in the second movie; its being better amy also be due to the fact it was closer to what he had imagined at first, and not too distant in the past.

He kept adjusting things, adding details for the third movie-- again with no specific details planned beforehand.

When he started working on the prequels, he had an awful lot of things to do and set up, and all this continuity to think over, with many things to introduce.

Some things that sounded good had the time (the Leia's mother bit) don't fit in now, and me have fortgotten about that, however obvious and unforgettable the trivia may seem to geeks; he surely had the essentials in mind (orphan from birth, separated from twin brother, ...) but maybe not the phrasing (I remember her).

Anyone who has written an dissertation will know that you write, re-write, change, sometimes forget words because you rephrased the sentence and ommitted to reword a part; plus, you're so into it you overlook glaring mistakes, even huge typos, when proof-reading.

Sure, Lucas spent maybe a year writing the script, but he didn't do just that.

Sure, there were dozens of people reading the script, but they may have focused on other parts, and possibly corrected even worse plotholes & continuity mistakes.

Sure, he could/should have let someone else write it, but I can understand his attachment to this work.

And I'm just as sure the nitpickers and flamers wouldn't have been able to do better, or even just as good.

And then, as I wrote in another thread, the same people should not complain in a few years if / when Lucas revises his movies again, makes some cuts and edits (cut Leia's memories) to satisfy them.

I know there are some flaws, but I am able to look past them and appreciate the whole enterprise and the movies.

Even such renowned writers as Melville or Hawthorne had some major flaws, yet their works are masterpieces. I'm not equalling Lucas to them, just putting thingsin perspective.

Imagine if the Internet had existed for centuries?

- Prithee, hast thou seen Shakspeare's last?

- A pestilence on ye vile scoundrel! He has violated me of my childhood! Making Richard say such things!

- And Othello? So many mistakes! This Iago character has not the slightest motivation! Methinks the bard just scrawled this on a parchment after a night of debauchery! The man has no motivation! he's just a tool! Such a reversal of character is unheard of! One moment he's devoted to the Moor, the next he serves the Dark One! (he he, hast though perceived ye goode olde pun?)

- I have heard he changed a few things since, to "improve" his play.

- I am glad I downloaded the original scrolls last month. True theater lovers know those are the only plays worth having, and the only versions.

- By thunder! Have you read the young whaleman's latest novel, my good friend?

- I have. I'm afraid the man has lost his mind!

- Verily, verily. How could one man be a good whaler captain one day, a monomaniac the next? And how could a crew be so ready to obey and serve so devilish a captain on the turn of a hat? Surely, Mr Melville has read too many accounts of Mesmer's experiments!

- How ludicrous! I am glad I purchased the original manuscripts of the original version of the text, before he introduced all this Ahab nonsense; it used to be a regular sea narrative, like the others, not a blasphemous hunt!

:roll:

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GL made the decision to kill off Padme in this film because if it he left her alive just to explain Leia's memory, he would have no way outside of EU to explain her death.

Or he could have done a fast forward to her death 3 years later, but that would have really dampened the ending and was not part of the story.

Explaining her death in the Extended Universe would have made the story non self contained within the movies, which has always been Lucas' goal.

So basically, we reason that Padme remembers the past because for some force/genetic memory reason, which works fine for me and is actually pretty interesting.

Yoda, ESB - "Through the force, things you will see...The Future...The Past..."

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Regarding Leia's memories of her mother:

She was talking about her adoptive mother. No other explanation. If Bail Organa told Leia at some point before his death that she was adopted, she would have said something about it.

Plothole filled.

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But the novelizations are canon, right? So what then if the novelization 'contradict' (mostly in details) what the film shows?

Lucas has given the writers of the novels a little freedom, but that doesn't make it canon.

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