indy4 155 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 This comes off as incredibly pretentious, and even a little stupid to me. Especially the last comment, about how SL is about success while the Holocaust is about failure...First off, I don't think SL was intended to portray the Holocaust in its entirety. It was meant to portray a very specific part of this tragic event, a part that is only marginally more positive (honestly, anybody who says Schindler's List ends with everybody happy...). In fact, he takes Kubrick's quote entirely out of context. Kubrick wasn't talking about why Spielberg's SL was a poor film--he was talking about how Kubrick himself didn't want to make the film because he was looking for a Holocaust film that could accurately portray the Holocaust in its entirety, and that's not what SL was trying to do. Proof:Kubrick's lifelong fascination with the Holocaust coexisted with extreme doubt as to whether any film could do justice to the subject. In 1980, he told the author Michael Herr that what he wanted most was to make a film about the Holocaust, "but good luck in putting all that into a two-hour movie." Frederic Raphael, who co-authored the screenplay for "Eyes Wide Shut," recalls Kubrick questioning whether a film truly can represent the Holocaust in its entirety. After Raphael suggested "Schindler's List," Kubrick replied, "Think that's about the Holocaust? That was about success, wasn't it? The Holocaust is about 6 million people who get killed. 'Schindler's List' is about 600 who don't. Anything else?" The first part of Gilliam's response is more of a matter of taste, but I don't think any work of art has one interpretation that precludes all others.It's one thing to make false claims, and it's one thing to be arrogant when you're right...but put the two together and I get really irked. Anyways, sorry. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Terry Gilliam is a charming, intelligent guy and he's entitled to his opinion. He's known for being straight and I respect that. Only last week in fact did I see him on a live BBC show, where he was asked about his early involvement with the Harry Potter franchise - he spoke about out how he was really disappointed it didn't work out for him at the time, going on to call the first movie in the series "bland" and "safe". I agreed with him. He was however really complimentary about the third movie. As for Schindler's List, I don't think he implied it was a "poor" movie.And besides, Gilliam always gets a pass simply because he made one of the funniest film's ever made.Did you really need to create a thread for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,040 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I'm still not sure about his movies, but I love documentaries about making of those. But, honestly, I kind of enjoy everything around the movies these days rather than the movies themselves. Music, sound design, photography, script, making-of and behind the scenes stories. Strange, but true.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,362 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I disagree with Gilliam. It's not about doing it justice, if you can make 1 person aware of what went on during WW2, then you've already succeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I always disagree with the rather popular argument which which bemoans a movie for not telling or portraying the bigger picture. It was the same with Saving Private Ryan. Some of the British press complained that it made out the Americans "won" the Normandy landings all by themselves, which was of course complete bollocks. Both Schinder's and Ryan are very personal stories and the scope and design of each film reflects that.Spielberg would continue on that theme for WotW and Munich. He's a personal film maker, that's his thing, always has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 It is also very easy to go wrong with trying to portray the bigger picture in film without it becoming a documentary on the subject, didactic more than story telling or extremely ponderous and pompous, all too aware of the importance of things it is imparting. With subject so wide as WWII or even Holocaust to try to encompass it with a single movie is absurd. As you gain a wider scope and try to include everthing everywhere you risk losing the humanity of the subject by presenting millions of faceless people in the midst of these events instead of those few through who you could be telling the story in a more personal manner. There is no dumbing down or sentimentalizing in making a film personal. It is just a choice of what to portray and where and how it relates to the larger events in history that certainly can loom behind the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melange 446 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 At the time I wasn't analysing the movie, but yes I can see what Gilliam is pointing to with this tendency to wrap it all up in a bow / give the viewer relief / consolation, but for me that mostly comes towards the very very end. Prior to that the movie IS the total breakdown of civil behaviour and doesn't pull any punches. It was probably the most blunt portrayal of how humans can disconnect themselves from what they are doing to others, that I'd ever seen up to that point. On a side note, I would recommend Peter Kominsky's Drama called The Promise a portayal it took him seven years to research which begins exactly where Schindler's List finishes. I would even call it an unofficial sequel (historically) to the movie Schindler's List and both movies viewed one after the other would certainly provide an interesting insight into humanity. I think U.S citizens can only currently get it from here in the UK on Amazon. Worth getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,805 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 who is this guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 who is this guy?Yeah, I was gonna say.I know Spielberg, I know Kubrick, but Terry who? Is he a disgruntled former employee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Terry Gilliam is a charming, intelligent guy and he's entitled to his opinion. He's known for being straight and I respect that. Only last week in fact did I see him on a live BBC show, where he was asked about his early involvement with the Harry Potter franchise - he spoke about out how he was really disappointed it didn't work out for him at the time; going on to call the first movie in the series "bland" and "safe". I agreed with him. He was however really complimentary about the third movie. As for Schindler's List, I don't think he implied it was a "poor" movie.And besides, Gilliam always gets a pass simply because he made one of the funniest film's ever made.Did you really need to create a thread for this? who is this guy? who is this guy?Yeah, I was gonna say.I know Spielberg, I know Kubrick, but Terry who?Is he a disgruntled former employee? :down: :down: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Hey, where I live, it's a free country.Gilliam can criticize Spielberg, but I can make fun of Gilliam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 who is this guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,805 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 The name just rings a bell, what can i do.He must be the American equivalent of Tintin or something.And anyway with what he said about SL, i dont care who he is and i dont want to waste my time searching for that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Actually Gilliam is one of the most vocal Spielberg critics, and always has been. What he says in that interview is nothing new. Gilliam is even mentioned in the wikipedia article for Schindler's List.http://en.wikipedia...._List#Reception Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Ignorance is bliss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,588 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Terry Gilliam is a fabulous filmmaker, and his animation in Monthy Python is pure genius.But here, he's way off. He fails to understand how different outlooks on life influence the filmmaker's style and ideologies. Spielberg's films are very personal, and many of the storylines have a positive outlook despite dire circumstances. This goes back to his very roots, his very upbringing and childhood. SCHINDLER'S LIST is a superb example of this -- portraying some extremely harsh environments, but still focussing on the few people who actually MADE it, despite the odds.That's just a choice. It isn't any more or less valid an ideology than just focussing on the bad stuff and the total human failure.I think this goes back to the notion some people have, that 'dark' films are better than lighter ones just because they're dark. I never understood that. You need to have a message, despite the tone of the film. And Spielberg's films have plenty of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Except I usually don't care about the message, I agree with Thor and others here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Hey, where I live, it's a free country.Gilliam can criticize Spielberg, but I can make fun of Gilliam!Who the fuck suggested otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Hey, where I live, it's a free country.Gilliam can criticize Spielberg, but I can make fun of Gilliam!Who the fuck suggested otherwise?Simmer down.Nobody did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 The name just rings a bell, what can i do.He must be the American equivalent of Tintin or something.And anyway with what he said about SL, i dont care who he is and i dont want to waste my time searching for that information.I'm sorry but after showing your ignorance and disdain for one of the most respected filmmakers of the last decades, I can NEVER take your opinion seriously again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 "You're dead to me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Hey, where I live, it's a free country.Gilliam can criticize Spielberg, but I can make fun of Gilliam!Who the fuck suggested otherwise?Simmer down.Nobody did.Then why did you post this?Hey, where I live, it's a free country.Gilliam can criticize Spielberg, but I can make fun of Gilliam!And don't ever tell me to simmer down again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Why are you cussing then?Apparently, you are very upset over something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Please answer to my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 With this postHey, where I live, it's a free country.Gilliam can criticize Spielberg, but I can make fun of Gilliam!I was explaining my earlier post (which was obviously a joke)Yeah, I was gonna say.I know Spielberg, I know Kubrick, but Terry who?Is he a disgruntled former employee? because some people (you) did seem to disapprove of it very strongly, as evidenced by :down: :down: No big deal. But if I offended you (or anybody else) I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 But I never suggested you couldn't make fun of him. I was just DISLIKING your comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Well, five thumbdowns (as opposed to one for Luke Skywalker) made me want to justify myself. That's all.I meant no harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I think the difference between the two posts was pretty clear.But nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 This isn't anything new or relevant.Gilliam and Spielberg are both very brilliant, but very different film makers. They see the world in different ways, and film it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,805 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 The name just rings a bell, what can i do.He must be the American equivalent of Tintin or something.And anyway with what he said about SL, i dont care who he is and i dont want to waste my time searching for that information.I'm sorry but after showing your ignorance and disdain for one of the most respected filmmakers of the last decades,I can NEVER take your opinion seriously again.Um, for what i can tell from you attitude towards me in recent years I can't really say you ever did.I know i make stupid remarks (like everyone else does to more or less extent), enough to people not like me. But I just would like to know what I did to get what it seems a personal grudge between us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 CATFIGHT..........CATFIGHT!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXwemM7TaJE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I know i make stupid remarks (like everyone else does to more or less extent), enough to people not like me. But I just would like to know what I did to get what it seems a personal grudge between us. Ricard has always had a fairly confrontational style of argumentation on this board -- and I state that matter-of-factly, not critically. I don't doubt that he disagrees with some individuals more than others, but he doesn't hide his disdain for opinions he considers absurd, no matter whose they may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 "He is a man of deep feelings" - Spock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,040 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 SL is a very good film. Very spontaneously made, by Spielberg standards. It tells an interesting story of an interesting character and creates the sense of verisimilitude. Has a great score too.But I'm not so sure about its value as a far as recreation of historical events. Seems way too wrapped-up for me. Something is missing from it and I can't quite put my finger on it.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Chief Brody, Hooper and Quint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,040 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Nah, Tom Cruise!Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,070 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 People think Gilliam is brilliant?Wow. Low standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 People think Gilliam is brilliant?Wow. Low standards.Brilliant...in a messy sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,070 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 He barely cracks good, and that's mostly thanks to his lovely work on Monty Python...and the occasional good movie that takes him 20 years to make. Gilliam and the hipster pricks that run around with "Oh it has to be open-ended/hopeless to be good " are a bit on the dumb side. As though there is some sort of formula for making a great film. They lack the faculties to realize that different stories require different methodologies. There is no one size fits all. Kubrick wasn't great because he didn't tie things up neatly, he was great because he realized when to tie things up neatly and when not to. He knew when to leave things up to you, and when to take the helm and neatly spoon feed you. It's a subtle difference that I expect Gilliam doesn't comprehend.And he's not in the league of Kubricks or Spielbergs. His inability to appreciate that subtle difference probably explains why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,239 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Gilliam may be hit and miss, but he's certainly brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,070 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 this is kind of like football, Spielberg says to Gilliam, Scoreboard. Jaws, Raiders, ET, JP, anyone of those films has made more money than all of TG's films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Jaws, Raiders, ET, JP, anyone of those films has made more money than all of TG's films.And any TRANSFORMERS movie did, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Jaws, Raiders, ET, JP, anyone of those films has made more money than all of TG's films.And any TRANSFORMERS movie did, too.yes but those are not Spielberg films, thank god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 yes but those are not Spielberg films, thank godYeah, but 12 MONKEYS generated more $ than SCHINDLER'S LIST. Now Gilliam can whip Spielberg's ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 yes but those are not Spielberg films, thank godYeah, but 12 MONKEYS generated more $ than SCHINDLER'S LIST. Now Gilliam can whip Spielberg's ass!sorry but Schindler's List made 96 million domestic, 225 mil. foreign, 12 Monkeys 57 mil dom. and 111.6 mil foreign, Steven still the champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 But Terry Gilliam was in Monty Python, something Spielberg can never, ever claim.Steven loses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 true, but he was in the Blues Brothers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 And in an Michael Jackson video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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