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Hans Zimmer's DUNKIRK

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2 minutes ago, publicist said:

Because they aren't done by one person and as far as we know, often ruled by all kinds of interferences that just makes the label impractical and misleading.

 

It's just another stupid label invented for film fans to hang their adoration on this one face when the term 'film director' pretty much sums it up. 

 

Publicist and I agree so rarely that when we do, it must be because whoever is arguing against him has lost his damned mind!

 

Comparing a single author novel with 800 crew member films and asking why we can't attribute films to one person. Jesus Christ. 

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3 minutes ago, publicist said:

Again, who keeps track of who did what? You decide?

 

Yes? Read Nolan's quote again. He could clearly see that Alien and Blade Runner are from one and the same mind. That this kind of creative control was possible in film was an important realization to Nolan.

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Which is proof that Ridley Scott is an auteur? You completely confuse the (semantic) argument about a term with the realization that a film director imprints a movie he's directing (to wildly differing levels). How is that proof that he's the sole auteur? 

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Maybe. But he knew who directed both films when he came to his realization.

 

My guess is if you blinded people and put those two films in front of someone they'd not come to the same realization.

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Interesting that Blumenthal demands evidence from other people but hasn't ever shown a tendency to back up his claims!

 

It's official. Blumenthal is David Irving. The Holocaust denier!

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Exactly. I can tell when Deakins is cinematographer. And I can tell when Ken Adam has been designing sets. I can tell when John Williams is composing.

 

But to then turn around and say this film is clearly the vision of one person...uh...defies logic. 

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Also curious that on a forum devoted to a film composer such discussion is even possible. And i'm certain all these directors working with Williams over the years happily refrained from micromanaging him to make sure he can make his own contribution - after all, he's the musician. And even if there is some kind of briefing involved, the heart of the matter is that you hire talented people to serve AND enhance your vision. Paul Verhoeven could prod Jerry into improving 'Basic Instinct' but he never could've written anything approaching it. And i think most filmmakers would agree.

 

 

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But can you prove Mozart wrote The Magic Flute without any input from anyone? He couldnt play every instrument of the orchestra anyway.

Did Tolstoy write War and Peace completely and utterly on hos own. using no reference? Taking no advice?

 

I find your utter rejection of the theory rather all-sweeping and flawed.

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8 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I find your utter rejection of the theory rather all-sweeping and flawed.

 

And i find your (and Alex') insistence that it has any meaning or importance just assertive bullshit. You certainly have never expressed much interest in academic matters before, but now finally, Stefan has found his guiding light in a french caprice that was chic in the 50's and 60's? Come so on...

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15 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

 

And i find your (and Alex') insistence that it has any meaning or importance just assertive bullshit. You certainly have never expressed much interest in academic matters before, but now finally, Stefan has found his guiding light in a french caprice that was chic in the 50's and 60's? Come so on...

 

Meaning? To enjoy the hand of Kubrick or Tarantino is all the meaning one really needs. Importance? It's there or not. And you either recognize it or you don't.

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True! As already stated the theory cannot be blanket applied to the entire medium but it is a potent lens through which you can explore the work of some film-makers including many working in Europe today.

 

Think about it, it is not that much different from books written by any artist in a way. It just seeks to see the artist as the author of his works and identify his signature and worldview.

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15 minutes ago, Jwfan2234 said:

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, Interstellar just to name a few

 

Dark Knight Rises a masterpiece? It's easily his worst film and doesn't deserve to menstioned among his great films. 

 

Dunkirk looks like it's going to be great though.

 

and Spitfires!!

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It does fit that description in its purest sense, before the word became overused.  The climactic Wall Street fight sits comfortably with some of the most well executed and impressive large scale cinematic battles of the past.  It's Nolan putting every other DC and Marvel climax to shame.  Only a few buildings and one bridge are destroyed or damaged during it.  Plus, I was in it.

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13 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

That's a good way of putting it.

I have always found it interesting that those 3 films give Bruce Wayne (and his Batman creation) a very symmetric art. It starts with a man who tries to conquer his fear in order to become a symbol. Then he becomes completely submerged and obsessed to the point he isn't afraid of anything anymore...and is ultimately broken. Emotionally first, then physically. At the end, he needs to rediscover fear to become human again.

 

Karol

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23 hours ago, karelm said:

You are confusing fad with vision.  Do not equate innovation with vision.  Do you believe Justin Beiber who has 12 billion youtube views, 78 million facebook fans, 1000 million dollar sales for an album to be a visionary or a fad (frankly I think we would all agree these are sad stats but I just looked them up)?  Zimmer is not in any way a complete reshaping of musical rhetoric.  He is a sharp and savvy producer and that is why composers mimic him.  You tell us why he is more than that.

 

I have yet to hear something from him I thought was anything beyond serviceable.  Get over it Grey, others are allowed opinions that do not glorify him the way you do.  Music is not his strongest point (in my opinion) and I will argue he would agree with me.  His strength is in servicing the directors emotional intention and that is a very good strength to have but not the same thing. 

 

This post is everything wrong with elitist JW forum fans. You comparing Justin Beiber to Hans Zimmer?

 

James Cameron is a visionary director who has enough music sense to pick James Horner as his go to music composer. James Cameron said point blank that Hans Zimmer, John Williams and James Horner are the three modern masters of film music. When an acclaim song writer or coach claims Beiber is top 3 modern masters in singing, then go head with the comparison. A-list directors like Nolan, Howard, Scott, and Malick all worked with him, in some cases, frequently collaborated with him. Zimmer has been critically acclaimed for over three decades. 

 

But no, he is just a fad. To me, if you have yet to hear something from him that you through was beyond serviceable, that is your problem. If The Lion King, Interstellar, Gladiator, and Beyond Rangoon are just serviceable, then you are in the minority. You are hearing something differently than what top level directors, musicians, producers, and millions of fans are hearing. And that is ok. But there is no denying Zimmer's place in history. Objectively, he has a resume of an elite level composer. He basically lead the direction of film music for years. Composers mimic him because he was the one who led the charge. 

 

It is like if I say Jerry Goldsmith is a fad. Or Horner. Or Newton Howard. Or Elfman because I dislike their music. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Jwfan2234 said:

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, Interstellar just to name a few

 

You forgot Inception. 

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56 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

This post is everything wrong with elitist JW forum fans. You comparing Justin Beiber to Hans Zimmer?

 

James Cameron is a visionary director who has enough music sense to pick James Horner as his go to music composer. James Cameron said point blank that Hans Zimmer, John Williams and James Horner are the three modern masters of film music. When an acclaim song writer or coach claims Beiber is top 3 modern masters in singing, then go head with the comparison. A-list directors like Nolan, Howard, Scott, and Malick all worked with him, in some cases, frequently collaborated with him. Zimmer has been critically acclaimed for over three decades. 

 

But no, he is just a fad. To me, if you have yet to hear something from him that you through was beyond serviceable, that is your problem. If The Lion King, Interstellar, Gladiator, and Beyond Rangoon are just serviceable, then you are in the minority. You are hearing something differently than what top level directors, musicians, producers, and millions of fans are hearing. And that is ok. But there is no denying Zimmer's place in history. Objectively, he has a resume of an elite level composer. He basically lead the direction of film music for years. Composers mimic him because he was the one who led the charge. 

 

It is like if I say Jerry Goldsmith is a fad. Or Horner. Or Newton Howard. Or Elfman because I dislike their music. 

 

 

 

You forgot Inception. 

You might be a little new here kid so I will cut you some slack.  Yes, HZ is a perfect example of someone who has rarely done much for me musically and that is my opinion.  I will add that after spending 100 bucks on his masterclass, his musical input is worthless and that I expected.  I was warned by people I respect about it and got what I expected.  His business saviness is absolutely worth 100 bucks and worth hearing.   His musical thoughts were not and that was what I expected.

Get used to the idea of different opinions kid.  Correct, your list of music by HZ is basically serviceable and he would agree.  Bullshit that he is mimicked because he led the charge.  He is mimicked because the films he happens to score make a lot of money.  He is not on par with Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman.  Probably closer to a more successful Brian Tyler. 

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Tyler showed promise in the 2000s, but he's degenerated to loud, compressed, interchangeable noise. Zimmer at least has some variety in his work. Something like Angels and Demons sounds nothing like The Simpsons Movie, and Man of Steel sounds nothing like Frost/Nixon.

 

What seems to aggravate traditional film music purists is that his scores aren't as often gratifying listening experiences on their own as those they yearn for from the Silver Age. But all that demonstrates is that he prioritises the film, and any album experience stuff or issues with listenability are secondary.

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2 hours ago, karelm said:

You might be a little new here kid so I will cut you some slack.  Yes, HZ is a perfect example of someone who has rarely done much for me musically and that is my opinion.  I will add that after spending 100 bucks on his masterclass, his musical input is worthless and that I expected.  I was warned by people I respect about it and got what I expected.  His business saviness is absolutely worth 100 bucks and worth hearing.   His musical thoughts were not and that was what I expected.

Get used to the idea of different opinions kid.  Correct, your list of music by HZ is basically serviceable and he would agree.  Bullshit that he is mimicked because he led the charge.  He is mimicked because the films he happens to score make a lot of money.  He is not on par with Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman.  Probably closer to a more successful Brian Tyler. 

 

You are welcome to your opinion. But don't make dumb comparisons and saying Zimmer is Justin Beiber. You keep making dumb comparisons and I'll keep correcting you on it. It is that simple. If Zimmer is not your cup of tea, fine. And I watched his masterclass class as well. I agree that if you are looking for musical composition, that class offers nothing. It more of a class for people who wants to know the important points and philosophy of the film scoring process.

 

Again, it one thing to have an opinion, it is another thing to make your point by saying something that is absurd. Zimmer is highly respected by many great directors. He critically acclaimed by fans and critics.

 

As to your final point about Zimmer is only mimicked because he score films that make a lot of money...here we go again. Completely false. Do you know where Zimmer ranked among the composers with the highest average box office gross per picture updated as of 2016? Yeah, I actually did some research last year. He wasn't even in the top 10.

 

The top 10 are actually:

1.       Michael Giacchino: $154,130,780

2.       John Williams: $143,067,928

3.       Steven Price: $139,202,394

4.       Randy Newman: $124,214,504

5.       Trent Reznor: $122,415,225

6.       Junkie XL: $119,428,312

7.       Alan Menken: $117,154,275

8.       Henry Jackman: $116,115,876

9.       Steve Jablonsky: $108,959,601

10.   John Powell: $104,058,095

11.   Hans Zimmer: $95,796,890

 

Contrary to popular belief, Zimmer isn't head and shoulders above his peers when it comes to scoring high grossing pictures. Again, it is one thing to have an opinion, it is quite another when your opinion is just fact out wrong. 

 

Is Zimmer on the same level as Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman? Technically? No chance. Legacy wise? Yeah. Objectively, he has score just as many films, and have just as many acclaim scores as those composers. In terms of influence on the industry, he is right up there as well. 

 

I love Horner but I am not a big fan of Elfman. I never felt truly connected with Elfman. But objectively speaking, Elfman is an all time great. Unlike you, I don't completely dismiss a composer's entire legacy because of my own personal tastes. 

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He obviously took the gross receipts and divided them through the number of scored pictures. Which of course isn't saying much if you have Randy Newman's three Pixar movies against Zimmer's 200 across all genres. A fairer number would be a total of highest-grossing box office receipts which probably would pit Zimmer against Williams.

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4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Sorry. Just woke up.

Can you state the sources of your research. And where your figures come from? 

 

BoxOfficeMojo.com

 

The list is incomplete in a sense that BoxOfficeMojo.com doesn't have the box office record of every movie from every composer. But the numbers are based on what I could find on the site. If you search a movie, you can click on the composer's name to generate a list.

 

If you are interested, here is the top 60 composers:

 

1.       Michael Giacchino: $154,130,780

2.       John Williams: $143,067,928

3.       Steven Price: $139,202,394

4.       Randy Newman: $124,214,504

5.       Trent Reznor: $122,415,225

6.       Junkie XL: $119,428,312

7.       Alan Menken: $117,154,275

8.       Henry Jackman: $116,115,876

9.       Steve Jablonsky: $108,959,601

10.   John Powell: $104,058,095

11.   Hans Zimmer: $95,796,890

12.   Danny Elfman: $93,058,898

13.   Heitor Pereira: $85,536,231

14.   Harry Gregson-Williams: $84,099,190

15.   Atticus Ross: $81,631,313

16.   David Arnold: $81,540,231

17.   Alan Silvestri: $76,094,494

18.   Lorne Balfe: $75,357,961

19.   Ramin Djawadi: $72,797,387

20.   James Newton Howard: $71,862,549

21.   Joseph Trapanese: $70,333,617

22.   Brian Tyler: $69,281,277

23.   Howard Shore: $65,596,626

24.   Alexandre Desplat: $63,836,863

25.   Marc Streitenfeld: $63,491,211

26.   Trevor Rabin: $63,342,267

27.   Rupert Gregson-Williams: $63,212,414

28.   Mark Mancina: $62,374,680

29.   John Debney: $60,335,460

30.   James Horner: $58,630,266

31.   John Ottman: $58,373,941

32.   A.R. Rahman: $55,482,405

33.   Christophe Beck: $53,905,912

34.   Thomas Newman: $52,561,867

35.   Elliot Goldenthal: $48,447,108

36.   Patrick Doyle: $47,346,062

37.   Theodore Shapiro: $45,483,373

38.   Tyler Bates: $45,121,213

39.   Marco Beltrami: $44,977,326

40.   Jerry Goldsmith: $42,142,497

41.   Trevor Morris: $40,663,803

42.   Craig Armstrong: $38,824,853

43.   Klaus Bedelt: $37,396,636

44.   Randy Edelman: $37,351,120

45.   Jóhann Jóhannsson: $35,946,926

46.   Carter Burwell: $34,362,010

47.   Fernando Velázquez: $30,816,563

48.   Christopher Young: $28,659,712

49.   Geoff Zanelli: $26,262,314

50.   Gabriel Yared: $25,522,002

51.   Roque Baños: $24,518,362

52.   Clint Mansell: $24,311,622

53.   Trevor Jones: $23,289,959

54.   Mark Isham: $22,206,375

55.   Dario Marianelli: $22,166,759

56.   Michael Brook: $21,725,803

57.   Mychael Danna: $20,173,506

58.   Daniel Pemberton: $20,098,795

59.   Rachel Portman: $19,393,151

60.   Ennio Morricone: $17,253,751

 

 

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2 minutes ago, publicist said:

He obviously took the gross receipts and divided them through the number of scored pictures. Which of course isn't saying much if you have Randy Newman's three Pixar movies against Zimmer's 200 across all genres. A fairer number would be a total of highest-grossing box office receipts which probably would pit Zimmer against Williams.

 

I have a list of that too:

 

Lifetime Box Office Gross:

 

1.       Hans Zimmer (110): $10,537,657,872

2.       John Williams (70): $10,014,754,983

3.       James Newton Howard (117): $8,407,918,195

4.       Danny Elfman (77): $7,165,535,110

5.       Alan Silvestri (89): $6,772,409,957

6.       James Horner (106): $6,214,808,171

7.       John Powell (52): $5,411,020,926

8.       John Debney (84): $5,068,178,666

9.       Christophe Beck (83): $4,474,190,659

10.   Howard Shore (69): $4,526,167,193

11.   Thomas Newman (85): $4,467,758,718

12.   Michael Giacchino (27): $4,161,531,054

13.   Harry Gregson-Williams (46): $3,868,562,728

14.   Jerry Goldsmith (90): $3,792,824,748

15.   Brian Tyler (47): $3,256,220,041

16.   Randy Newman (25): $3,105,362,607

17.   Alexandre Desplat (43): $2,744,985,114

18.   Carter Burwell (77): $2,645,874,756

19.   Henry Jackman (21): $2,438,433,392

20.   Trevor Rabin (37): $2,343,663,864

21.   Marco Beltrami (51): $2,293,843,613

22.   Mark Isham (103): $2,287,256,574

23.   Randy Edelman (61): $2,278,418,317

24.   Theodore Shapiro (47): $2,137,718,539

25.   Christopher Young (70): $2,006,179,816

26.   Steve Jablonsky (18): $1,961,272,826

27.   David Arnold: (24): $1,956,965,551

28.   John Ottman (30): $1,751,218,242

29.   Patrick Doyle (34): $1,609,766,120

30.   Heitor Pereira (18): $1,539,652,158

31.   Mark Mancina (23): $1,434,617,643

32.   Junkie XL (12): $1,433,139,742

33.   Alan Menken (12): $1,405,851,296

34.   Tyler Bates (25): $1,128,030,320

35.   Elliot Goldenthal (23): $1,114,283,479

36.   Ramin Djawadi (14): $1,019,163,416

37.   Rachel Portman (52): $1,008,443,837

38.   Mychael Danna (49): $988,501,805

39.   Trevor Jones (39): $908,308,415

40.   Klaus Badelt (23): $860,122,620

41.   Ennio Morricone (48): $828,180,025

42.   Rupert Gregson-Williams (13): $821,761,384

43.   Steven Price: (5): $696,011,969

44.   Craig Armstrong: (17): $660,022,505

45.   Gabriel Yared (25) $638,050,055

46.   Lorne Balfe (8): $602,863,690

47.   Dario Marianelli (25): $554,168,984

48.   Marc Streitenfeld (8): $507,929,684

49.   Joseph Trapanese (7): $492,335,317

50.   Atticus Ross (6): $489,787,879

51.   Clint Mansell (20): $486,232,444

52.   A.R. Rahman (7): $388,376,838

53.   Trent Reznor (3): $367,245,676

54.   Michael Brook (16): $347,612,840

55.   Philip Glass (26): $306,833,791

56.   Geoff Zanelli (10): $262,623,143

57.   Fernando Velázquez (8) 246,532,507

58.   Trevor Morris (5): $203,319,013

59.   Roque Baños (8) $196,146,896

60.   Alberto Iglesias (21): $193,383,236

61.   Jóhann Jóhannsson (4) $143,787,704

62.   Daniel Pemberton (4): $80,395,178

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1 minute ago, Mephariel said:

The list is incomplete in a sense that BoxOfficeMojo.com doesn't have the box office record of every movie from every composer. But the numbers are based on what I could find on the site. If you search a movie, you can click on the composer's name to generate a list.

 

Ok, but what does that list tell you? It doesnt really tell me anything. Is Junkie XL a more successful and influential film composer than Zimmer? I don't think so.

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Just now, Stefancos said:

 

Ok, but what does that list tell you? It doesnt really tell me anything. Is Junkie XL a more successful and influential film composer than Zimmer? I don't think so.

 

That is actually my point. 

 

There is this false notion out there that Zimmer is only copied because he scores the highest grossing movies. But he doesn't. A lot of composers are comparable and some even ahead of him in terms of box office performance.

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No, I don't think your list shows that at all.

 

You obviously ignored the fact that Zimmer has been active in film since the 80's, and has scored far far more films then someone like Holkenborg or Price. Just totting up the box office grosses and dividing them doesnt give an accurate number as to the popularity and influence a composer has had.

 

Zimmer is WITHOUT A DOUBT more successful and influential than Beck, Price, Junkie etc. 

 

You also ignore that fact that Zimmer's two companies Media Ventures and Remote Control have provided several of the composers you see in your list. Even John Powell who struck out on his own quite fast owes part of his success to Zimmer. 

 

I'm sorry, but your numbers really do not hold together in any way. Perhaps you should work for the Trump administration.

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It may be nitpicking, BOMojo isn't nearly as accurate with either older movies (only US box office) or inflation-adjustments. With horrible blockbusters racking up billions in China, of course JunkieXL figures even if he should not. If anything, such lists only prove that good music is a zero factor in today's cinema.

 

As for your second statement, of course Zimmer's success is responsible for being copied. This was so long before Zimmer left the womb in Frankfurt and will be so long after he is gone to ashes. 

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1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

No, I don't think your list shows that at all.

 

You obviously ignored the fact that Zimmer has been active in film since the 80's, and has scored far far more films then someone like Holkenborg or Price. Just totting up the box office grosses and dividing them doesnt give an accurate number as to the popularity and influence a composer has had.

 

Zimmer is WITHOUT A DOUBT more successful and influential than Beck, Price, Junkie etc. 

 

You also ignore that fact that Zimmer's two companies Media Ventures and Remote Control have provided several of the composers you see in your list. Even John Powell who struck out on his own quite fast owes part of his success to Zimmer. 

 

I'm sorry, but your numbers really do not hold together in any way. Perhaps you should work for the Trump administration.

 

I don't think you understand my point. I never said that Zimmer is not more successful and influential than Beck, Price, Junkie. OF COURSE he is. In fact, my chart is NOT to show whether or not someone is influential, but that box office doesn't necessarily dictate how influential someone is. James Horner is in the middle of the list, but he is far more influential than most composers in the top ten. Junkie XL is near the top, but he is no where near as influential as Morricone. 

 

Zimmer IS influential, but it is not simply because his movies made a lot of money. Beck, Prince and Junkie average had higher average per picture than Zimmer. 

 

Again, I am not using my chart to say that Zimmer is NOT influenential. Only that there is more to it than "OMG, of course he is influential because he gets the biggest films!"

 

Your argument that my chart doesn't show how someone is or is not influential is CORRECT. And that is exactly my point. Having a high box office helps. Being around for a long time helps. But is not simply "Zimmer has the biggest films (false) so he is the most influential."

 

I would never vote for Trump btw. 

 

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, publicist said:

It may be nitpicking, BOMojo isn't nearly as accurate with either older movies (only US box office) or inflation-adjustments. With horrible blockbusters racking up billions in China, of course JunkieXL figures even if he should not. If anything, such lists only prove that good music is a zero factor in today's cinema.

 

As for your second statement, of course Zimmer's success is responsible for being copied. This was so long before Zimmer left the womb in Frankfurt and will be so long after he is gone to ashes. 

 

Never said that BOMojo is 100% accurate. But it is most accurate data of box office numbers that I can find. 

 

And yes, Zimmer's success helps him to lead the industry I think. But the point is, there are other successful composers out there that perform nearly as well or even better. None of those guys are as influential. Likewise, Horner is in the middle of the list and he is far more influential than some of the guys on top. 

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I doubt Horner ever was this influential (explained, of course, by the fact that Horner's house style was very traditional). 

 

But i forgot: why IS Zimmer/RCP leading the pack if not by general success?

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