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aj_vader
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Posts posted by aj_vader
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So if you catpured the audio would it be multichannel or stereo? meaning if you opened it in audicty to see all the channels?
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If they did a proper release of the music we'd know by looking on the back cover of each release 😡
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2 minutes ago, karelm said:
Even where you say both were in sync, those wave forms look quite different! They are timed correctly but details in the original are missing in the remaster but you can see compression was applied. The Disney Remaster is louder int he green section right channel but both are quieter in the orange. There are also timing issues. What does this mean? Different takes?
The waveforms are different yes, but I promise they are the same recording. The big difference in the right channel I suspect is the hyped close mics of the basses. You can really hear it in the softer section, those low marcato stabs are almost like timpani's the way the bottom end has been hyped. There is definitely a considerable amount of compression on the Disney one yes.
I'm saying it's different takes in both versions. The Disney one is only different in when those takes come in, they aren't different takes to the original, but they are definitely different mixes, without a doubt.
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Hope this is the right place for this.
Breakdown of Mynock Cave.
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Because one has no life, I synced the original Imperial March from the OST and put it on top of the Disney 2018 remaster. They are the same takes, however the timing is a little different and confirms a suspicion I had regarding the recording of the piece.
So the audio phases up to the quiter section at around 0.47 (as you'd expect it to phase considering it's the same recording), but then the audio goes out of sync, you move it back and it does phase cancel again, but then at 1.37 it happens again.
I think it's three different isolated recordings that were cut together, why else would different releases of the same mix have different timings that corrolate in those 3 places?
Green = in sync. Orange = out of sync.
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I forgot the date and got excited. Cruel. Now I'm low again 👍 back to normal.
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1 hour ago, Manakin Skywalker said:
This broke me! 🤣
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If it is really down to Williams why we haven't had Star Wars and Indy expansions, why would he approve *insert current expanded releases list here* before Star Wars and Indy?
Maybe it's happening but just taking an extremely long time because they are still trying to find the best sources?
We can hope right? We can speculate? This is normal behaviour right? -
10 minutes ago, Bespin said:
ANH is fine too, the real problem is with ESB, they tried to push the limits of the poor master too far.
Yeah A New Hope is okay for the most part, the shift in top end during the Tie Fighter Attack is very strange and the panning is a little extreme. I know that Eric Tomlinson set the mics in an effort to give a very wide sound, however I think the Disney Releases have pushed it too far and it feels inconsistent.
I think many have mentioned the crazy reverb on The Asteroid Field, but the hyped top and bottom end (EQ, shelving) on most tracks [possibly most obvious on The Imperial March] is sounding like all those pop 'remasters' from the 90's.
It's been 5 years now since this release and it's still as dissapointing as they day it was released.
Help us Mike M, you're our only hope!
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12 hours ago, TheAvengerButton said:
The brass section is leaving a little to be desired here especially in the more fanfare-esque pieces but the rest of the orchestra is top notch, although I wish the percussion would hold back just a little as they overpower the rest of the orchestra.
This is the case with most concerts you go to, you can see around 30-50 people bowing and you can sometimes barely hear them. We are all so used to hearing Williams' music played in studios with multiple mic positions, the concert hall is rarely 'forgiving' for those kinds of balances we are used to hearing.
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Boring answers here, sorry in advanced.
Gold - The Imperial March
Silver - Main Titles/Luke's Theme
Bronze - The Force ThemeGold - The Imperial March
I don't really know what I can say here that hasn't been said many times, but has there ever been music (in film) more iconic and a more characteristically successful theme in portraying a character, vision or affiliation? If there is, it's probably something else by the Maestro himself (likely from Star Wars). The speed in which Darth Vader and The Empire are conveyed and delivered in the statements of this theme are truly spectacular in it's use and musical design. The problem here is I struggle to look at this and most of Star Wars objectively (especially The Imperial March). I am far too obsessed with this music too not be blinded by bias.
Silver - Main Titles/Luke's Theme
Almost the same reasons as above, it encapsulates all the excitement I associate with all the Star Wars films and manages to achieve this very quickly when it’s stated. Would I feel the same if this was a piece of concert music without any film association? Hard to say, but I’d like to think so. I think the Main Titles probably receives most of its positive praise due to its melody, I think the orchestration becomes overlooked. If you listen to the music without the trumpets, you can see the point I’m trying to make.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FISl_GaFwMIAxSYf55CEjiU4MCKeV7Tj/view?usp=sharing
Bronze - The Force Theme
One of the most beautiful pieces of music written for me, a ridiculous thing to claim considering how much beautiful music there is (even in the Star Wars scores alone), however this piece moves me emotionally unlike much else. There has to be honourable mentions as this list was very difficult to choose after the gold and silver awards (Across the Stars, Rey’s Theme, Leia’s Theme etc). It works in every textural iteration that Williams employs through its various uses. From the Solo Horn in Binary Sunset to the Trumpet section of The Throne Room it always conveys that sense of mystery, hope and subtle heroism.
A very difficult exercise to take part in, but more than welcome. Thank you artguy360. -
On 03/10/2022 at 9:31 PM, Marian Schedenig said:
I was too. Still sad I missed ROTJ.
I think LPO is the traditional acronym for the London Philharmonic Orchestra, so that's how I read it.
Hopefully one day they cycle through the original trilogy again. I'd go see them all again, fantastic experiences. So sad we won't see/hear the prequels.
Yeah I always refer to them as the London Philharmonia Orchestra, bad force of habit.
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2 minutes ago, Jay said:So you're telling me that England has:
The London Symphony Orchestra
The London Philharmonic Orchestra
The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
The Philharmonia Orchestra
And those are all completely different from each other?
They are the same people, they just swap instruments.
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2 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:
That was the Philharmonia Orchestra, not the London Philharmonic.
I know I was there.
I'll change it to PO 👍, they aren't actually called the London Philharmonia Orchestra, didn't know that.
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I've only seen 3 live to pictures and they are;
A New Hope, LSO, Royal Albert Hall (2018)
Empire, PO, Royal Albert Hall (2019)
Jedi, LSO, Royal Albert Hall (2022)
If I were to rate them i'd say
1. A New Hope
2. Jedi
3. Empire
The performance of A New Hope by the LSO was incredible. Empire suffered because the sound of the film was far too loud and badly mixed against the music. I think I saw one audience member go talk to the sound team, I assume to ask to turn the sound down at the interval. The PO were very good of course but the brass suffered compared to both LSO performances. Jedi was also a fantastic performance, but it's just the editing on jedi is awful, the jump between the cue from Empire to Jedi during the Destruction of the second Death Star was very distracting, maybe because I knew it was coming perhaps? But moments like that took me out of it.
They were all fantastic of course and moments i'll treasure forever.
Here's a little of 'The Emperor Arrives' from Jedi. Sorry it's only a mono recording on my phone in the pocket, you can imagine the sound in the hall!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N_Pio9nEPTKMxq4Lszii6VqPC0BecIt7/view?usp=sharing
I'm going to see The Halle Orchestra do E.T this month in Manchester, really looking forward to crying in front of many people again.
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18 hours ago, crocodile said:
What I find so strange is that the intro to the second half ends with the crescendo from the very end of Battle of the Heroes suite.
Karol
It's the version they used for the laser show after the interval in Star Wars A Musical Journey/Star Wars In Concert.
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4 minutes ago, Jay said:
So are you saying 4 of the 6 horns on stage played the wrong part during that cue, or are you saying the paperwork itself is wrong and no one's caught it yet?
The score is wrong, the players performed correctly.
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6 hours ago, ciarlese said:
Am I wrong or "the Emperor's Arrival" was quite different than the original version?
It is the original film version, it's just when the 'Imperial March' ostinato appears theres a horrible clunky edit that loops, i'm guessing the original scene was longer?
The main melody when we are in the hangar was meant to be played by 4 Trumpets, 4 Trombones and 2 Horns (the other 4 horns doing the syncopated part). However all 6 horns were doing the syncopated part in the live to picture, which resulted in the melody not having that large stereo/left & right spread across the stage (like the original recording does).
It was still a fantastic performance though, the trombones were stand out and much better than the trombones in the Empire Strikes Back performance at Albert Hall back in 2019.
Maybe these differences are what you were hearing?
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I'm sure some of you have heard the VuVu Land story where on the original Star Wars soundtrack recording, Williams used to go in to listen to the take in the control room and asked Eric Tomlinson (Recording/Mixing Engineer) to move the levels into the VuVu Land, meaning push the gain up into the higher levels, which then resulted in a much 'cruchier' and 'agressive' sound. This is also known as 'going into the red', it creates something called harmonic distortion/saturation and that is "the sound" of the original trilogy (Specifically Star Wars and Empire). This would affect the sound of the brass the most (I suspect) due to the dynamic nature of the instruments.
The prequel trilogy is much cleaner and i'm not sure who dictated the sound, but I vauguely remember Shawn Murphy saying he doesn't change that much from the capture on the day to the final mix, which I speculate is because Williams had 'approved' of the take during the recording sessions.
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3 minutes ago, Datameister said:
The rest of the brass don't actively detract from my enjoyment. But there are definitely broader differences between Williams's London and LA recordings. I've never been inside a scoring stage—more's the pity—but I get the impression that Sony does have a drier sound than Abbey Road or AIR Lyndhurst. The PT and the Potter scores have very noticeable (but natural-sounding) reverb tails that I assume are partly artificial and partly from the room. Recent Williams scores don't sound close-miked to my amateur ear, but the sound certainly seems to decay more quickly.
This holds true for all the instruments, and it holds pretty true for scores like E.T. and Jurassic Park—scores in which the trumpets still sound great to me, albeit different from their British counterparts.
Well I do know that for the albums they add more (artificial) reverb than they do for the film mix [from Shawn Murphy]. I think the film mixes generally are just what's present on the stage through the various microphones. Abbey Road is much more reverberant than the HW stages yes, could be the height of the ceiling?
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13 hours ago, Datameister said:
There has been a shift in the way trumpets sound in Williams scores. The difference is both subtle and impossible to ignore, and unfortunately, it's a change for the worse. I would like your help in figuring out what has changed.
(This is where I give the disclaimers that this is all entirely subjective, that I have the utmost respect for professional trumpeters on both sides of the pond, and that there are non-Williams scores with similar trumpet issues.)
The change became really noticeable with KOTCS, and it's stuck around in his (LA) recordings ever since. It's most noticable in loud passages for multiple trumpets, perhaps playing triads or octaves. There is a quality to the sound that is somehow both grating and underwhelming—aggravating yet anemic.
Here are some examples of JW scores in which the trumpets do NOT have this problem:
- E.T.
- Temple of Doom
- Hook
- Jurassic Park
- The Lost World
I have no complaints whatsoever about the trumpets in these scores, all of which were recorded at the Sony Scoring Stage with LA studio musicians. The sound is bright, clear, and modern, but not unduly fatiguing.As the new millennium hit, Williams recorded six scores in London: three SW prequels and three Potters. These too feature glorious trumpets, recorded mostly at Abbey Road and mostly with LSO players.
Williams's next film was KOTCS. Suddenly, the trumpets took on a different sound: dull but strident, claustrophobic but distant, weak but distracting. It's hard to put into words. To be clear, these performances and recordings are still by professionals, but something definitely shifted.
Unfortunately, this wasn't a one-off. Tintin, the SW sequels, the Adventures of Han … they all have the same problem. But we've also been treated to a few more London recordings—Galaxy's Edge, for instance, and Powell's adaptations for Solo. And what do you know? These sound great.
I've become increasingly preoccupied with trying to figure out what's different on a technical level. Here are some possible factors that have occurred to me:
- Choice of recording venue
- Choice of mics
- Placement of mics
- Mixing choices
- Tape vs. digital
- Use of artificial reverb
- Preference for Bb trumpets in London and C trumpets in LA
- Choice of specific trumpet manufacturers/models
- Shifts in performer technique/style
- Shifts in compositional style
But I don't see how any of these alone could account for the change.
What do you think? It's understandably hard to find truly detailed information on a lot of these recordings, so despite all my listening and searching and pondering, I haven't been able to come up with an answer.
My instinct says it's the players, but I can't be sure. How could you?
I was hoping Williams would programme some Star Wars Sequel music in the 2018 LSO Programme so I could hear 'London' trumpets/brass.
How you feel about the trumpets is how i feel about the trombones as well.
Disclaimer, i'm not trying to 'bash' anyone, i'm just interested in the differences.
Original Star Wars albums now available in Spatial Audio on Tidal and Apple Music
in JOHN WILLIAMS
Posted
Here is a bit of the centre channel for The Imperial March. THAT TIMPANI! 🤩
The Battle In The Snow. Listen to that Contrabassoon! 🤩