The Positive Hans Zimmer Thread...

[alfredo 0]

I just love to hate the man. I mean, just go to http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001877/ He is just a man you can enjoy hating. He probably took that picture himself in his bathroom. I respect the man for inventing a sound, I respect the man for bringing quite a few talented composers into the business and I respect the man for being so successful. I just would rather see some of the attention and praise that man gets go to some other far better less recognized composers.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I don't hate him. He's invented a sound and produced some wonderful work. My main problem with him is his Media Ventures and his barracks of proteges (clones). His sound (or shall I say now the MV sound) has just been overused everywhere, even TV shows feature knockoffs of the MV sound. I personally enjoy his work most when its embellished with dashes of ethnic influence.

That said I think its obvious to the casual music listener, or at least non film music fans in general adore the good gut feeling (that I hand it to him) of the simplistic, loud, bass heavy MV power anthems. I've lost count of the number of times friends of mine have mentioned how the score to POTC, The Rock, Narnia or even the 2d and 3rd Metal Gear Solid games (which Gregson-Williams did in full MV autopilot) was 'brilliant'

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I've lost count of the number of times friends of mine have mentioned how the score to POTC, The Rock, Narnia or even the 2d and 3rd Metal Gear Solid games (which Gregson-Williams did in full MV autopilot) was 'brilliant'

Hmm, Narnia doesn't fit with the rest of those scores at all.

Ray Barnsbury

[Incanus 5,715]

Goldsmith had been using synths in combination with the orchestra for years. And did it quite well, I might add.

The combination in the battle cues from Gladiator (the one that comes up most often when speaking of Zimmer) doesn't work and really has no place at all being in that score. I found it inappropriate and distracting when watching the film, and I generally skip those parts of The Battle and Barbarian Horde on the album, because it gives me a headache if I listen to it for too long.

The other parts of Gladiator are rather enjoyable, though.

I agree. There are good parts in Gladiator, the less MV ones. And the Earth theme (e.g. track Honour Him)

is wonderful.

And what was said about scoring different time periods Stefan made a good point about it. Even if Romans or Medieval times did not have a symphony orchestra the instruments therein have been developed through centuries from instruments that even the Romans had: drums, horns, military bugles, lyres etc. So the "organic" sound of the symphony orchestra sits better for historical films IMO. You expect such sound not synths. Of course those expectations can be broken.

And if you love synths then there is really no film they could not score. And there are exceptions to the rule that synths cannot be used in a historical films like Vangelis' 1942 Conquest of the Paradise where I think the synths do not take away from the reality that Scott is trying to create. And Chariots of Fire is a good film with a synth score.

Hans Zimmer is not my favourite composer but I admit he can, occasionally, write a great theme or sequence or even a score. One of the best scores he has done IMO is Hannibal. There atleast he flexes his orchestral writing more though that legion of other composers helping him is annoying, since the results range from good to awful on his albums.

Another example of a good Zimmer score is Prince of Egypt where he uses symphony orchestra and his synths and old bag of tricks but manages to write a moving, thematic and a suitable score for a film set in ancient times. I even like the songs for the most part even if I am not a big fan of sing song animation

So no Zimmer is not evil or bad. I really like much more of his orchestral style rather than his fast paced synth, bass driven, Bruckheimer action block buster scores.

[fommes 153]

I mean, just go to http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001877/  

Sometimes credited as Ludus Tonalis? What the?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's credited like that in My Beautiful Laundrette.

Interstingly enough, his first cdomposer credit is for Histoire d'O: Chapitre 2.

AKA soft core porno.

[Olivier 5]

Because it's trendy, some people repeat what they hear / read-- pretty ironical in this case, that the same argument (electronics, noise, ...) be repeated against the founder of MV.

Zimmer has written more than action music, and can indeed write very good music-- yes, even with an orchestra, small or large.

The Lion King, Beyond Rangoon, The Thin Red Line, The House of Spirits, Spanglish, As Good As It Gets, The Prince of Egypt, Muppet Treasure Island, and several others I have not heard.

As for more electronic scores, Backdraft and Broken arrow have great moments that set up the mood, suspense, character (within the narrow limits of Broken Arrow).

Pearl Harbor has a gorgeous main theme.

Beyond Rangoon is superb.

As Good As It Gets and Spanglish are light, mixing a bit of drama with comedy, just like The Teminal or the early scores of Johnny Williams, albeit in another idiom.

The Lion King and The Prince of Egypt feature splendid purely orchestral moments.

His action music is exciting, as should be.

Muppet Treasure Island is proof he can write a wonderful, rousing, orchestral swashbuckling score, just as well as John Williams or John Debney, in a lisghtly more modern way. It is exactly what Pirates of the Caribbean ought to have been.

That is the crux of the problem: producers, especially of action movies, fell in love with his action music, and have demanded since then that everything be the same-- to the point of lifting passages from earlier scores.

His job, and that of Media Ventures / Remote Control, is to provide what they are asked for-- and many people labelled Zimmer & MV the antechrists of film music, being totally oblivious (naively or not) of anything else Zimmer and his colleagues might do.

The general audience finds John Williams and other film music composers boring, that they sound all the same, because they don't pay attention, they only know a fraction of their works, don't even know what they have done and / or will not acknowledge it.

Zimmer bashers act just the same. They denounce such attitude when it is directed as John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, ..., but apply it to Zimmer and those composers they don't like.

Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, Elmer Bernstein, Bernard Herrmann, ... are way at the top top top of film music. It's beyond the top: they have done so much for film music (and thus the movies) and their work was / is of such outstanding quality they are in a class of their own.

At the top, you have Basil Poledouris, Danny Elfman, James Horner (another bashing topic), ..., and Hans Zimmer.

You may define sub-top categories, based on melodic talent, career achievements, awards, personal taste, range of styles, evolution, ...

But you cannot simply dismiss a composer and consider him the embodiment of everything anti-film music based on a narrow and caricatural knowledge of his works, making him the scapegoat for a situation only producers are responsible for.

Zimmer himself stated in his notes on Broken Arrow that vilent movies were not his favorite ones, nor action music the thing he preferred to do; he would rather score character-driven films.

In short, equalling Zimmer with noise or stating that "he stands against everything John Williams represents" is ludicrous, and tells more about the ignorance of those who say this than about Zimmer's work.

[A24 4,345]

Muppet Treasure Island is proof he can write a wonderful, rousing, orchestral swashbuckling score, just as well as John Williams or John Debney, in a lisghtly more modern way.

Wait a minute! Are you saying that pop musician Zimmer has the same musical jargon as Williams? Well, I be damned! Just when you thought it was safe to visit this board again!

[robthehand 3]

I "hate" Zimmer because I know he can be a good composer, but he's just so damn lazy! I feel the same way about Horner, only not so much.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I think people are missing the idea that Zimmer pretty much single handedly invented a whole style of music ( that power waltz - gladiator vibe ) and pretty much also invented the groove based orchestral action cue - and additionaly pretty much became the temp for all trailers too. he is awesome!! come on admit it independtently of williams.

Isnt the gladiator waltz based on mars by holst?

Hanst the gladiator sound been used already by zimmer since a decade ago. I dont think he invented nothing new with that movie...

The guy may be talented, but with the load of clone henchmen he has and his almost non-use of live orchestra i cannot stand his music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Isnt the gladiator waltz based on mars by holst?

So is music by many other respected film composers, Williams included.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

we don't need this thread, we've got the Zimmer Spielberg thread, which is too many zimmer threads other than my own

AMEN :?

This thread doesnt belong here...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Isnt the gladiator waltz based on mars by holst?

So is music by many other respected film composers, Williams included.

Yes and we dont said Williams created a new way of film composing for the cue 'Rebel blockade runner', do we?

Furthermore it is not as ovbious as Zimmer's

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I doubt Zimmer thinks he created a new way of film composition with Glad I Ate Her.

The Chess Match is as obvious as those Zimmer cues.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Take that Simpsons film for instance - what an incredible shame to hire Zimmer! He already screwed up Thunderbirds. And now instead of Alf Clausen (2nd choice is obviously Elfman), he'll add his style to it. Hopefully he'll score it in the good way, which he's capable of.

Zimmer's agency has denied Zimmer will score the Simpsons Movie.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It wasn't just Zimmer who screwed up Thunderbirds.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I've lost count of the number of times friends of mine have mentioned how the score to POTC, The Rock, Narnia or even the 2d and 3rd Metal Gear Solid games (which Gregson-Williams did in full MV autopilot) was 'brilliant'

Hmm, Narnia doesn't fit with the rest of those scores at all.

Ray Barnsbury

You are right. Overall as a score it does not. I should have been more precise, as it was the power anthem bits which have my friends praising.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The scores he's mentioned don't really qualify as scores, they're just nice music, recorded for the commercial aspect of the project (except Narnia).

Does he in any way threaten Williams' musicallity? I dont believe so

Yes he does. Because he shows young boys and girls how simple it is to get big assignments, big cash and recognition amongst the common folk, without having learned anything really, except two meters and the basic note values.

Why should a young person think about undergoing lots of stress and pressure when there's an easier way?

Of course, a person interested and gifted in the art of music will probably always choose to study it at a university, but the one or two kids out of a hundred who don't do that are already too much.

[Justin 2]

People are actually putting some effort into their posts.

Away with it!

Justin

[Olivier 5]

I think people are missing the idea that Zimmer pretty much single handedly invented a whole style of music ( that power waltz - gladiator vibe ) and pretty much also invented the groove based orchestral action cue - and additionaly pretty much became the temp for all trailers too. he is awesome!! come on admit it independtently of williams.

Isnt the gladiator waltz based on mars by holst?

Hanst the gladiator sound been used already by zimmer since a decade ago. I dont think he invented nothing new with that movie...

The guy may be talented' date=' but with the load of clone henchmen he has and his almost non-use of live orchestra i cannot stand his music.[/quote']

The Holst quotation is so obvious Zimmer certainly won't pretend he invented it.

The Zimmer / MV action sound debuted earlier than this, with Backdraft-- and possibly Black Rain, but I don't have this one so I can't be positive.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Goldsmith uses a different class of synths than Zimmer though...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Then again, Mars is the Roman God of War.

[pi 0]

I am not saying he invented the notes which were used. He DID invent that whole french horn with strings with everyone else powerful statements, which we have heard in

BACKDRAFT

POTC

THE ROCK

etc.....

he INVENTED that specific variety of industrial music - we never heard that kind of dorchestration in films before

listen to the rock or POTC and you know what i mean. It is aggressive, punchy and quite square rythmically.

even though rachmaninoff hints at it in the last movement of Symphony 1 and also Saint Saens (spelling) in his first symphony first movement.

because his music is like your questions

your answers are like watching days of our lives while listening to horner while scraping my fingernails against the chalkboard

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I am not saying he invented the notes which were used.  He DID invent that whole french horn with strings with everyone else powerful statements, which we have heard in

BACKDRAFT

POTC

THE ROCK

etc.....

Actually Goldsmith's been doing that for a lot longer.

[David Coscina 3]

Actually I think Richard Strauss and Rachmaninoff used this a little bit before Goldsmith did. In all seriousness, it's a standard orchestrational practice. The only difference is that Zimmer adds his Yamaha CS80 "brass" patches in unison to make the sound thicker (and unfortunately more fake sounding). I know many people like Zimmer's work for its emotional impact, but I am continually stumped...no, flustered at how any composer would choose to mar some wonderful orchestral performances by layering synth/samples on top of them. Goldsmith treated synths as separate instruments, like an extended instrument choir group of the orchestra and used them well. Goldenthal does the same thing. I;m actually not too crazy about how Williams uses synths but on occasion he does a nice job. He tends to go for obvious synth patches that draw too much attention away from the actual music in some cases.

Anyhow, I'm getting off topic. Zimmer hasn't pioneered any orchestration techniques. No film composer has when it comes to orchestration with acoustic instrumentation. These practices started with a guy called Rimsky-Korsakov and developed from there. Heck, you can go to any Beethoven symphony and find horn/string unisons.

[A24 4,345]

I'm actually not too crazy about how Williams uses synths but on occasion he does a nice job.  He tends to go for obvious synth patches that draw too much attention away from the actual music in some cases.

Really?! I find Williams' synth work to be very sober, almost completely dissolving in the music. I can't say the same of Goldsmith, who's synths can be quite obtrusive (Legend, Supergirl).

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alex, that was in the 80's.

People thought those kinda sounds were cool.

And now will follow a post by Marian stating that the synth in Legend is not obtrusive at all and that the score is brilliant.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I declare Fiery Angel as President of the United Boards of JWfan. My dear mate Hitch will be Speaker of the House and the rest of you can be Zimmercrats and Williamsarians.

[Olivier 5]

The synth in Legend is not obtrusive at all and the score is brilliant.

Rather, the synth is purposedly obtrusive, since the Goblins are foul creatures that are not supposed to be there nor slay a unicorn.

Wonderful score-- opening track, theme and all.

I love it.

[nightscape94 965]

The only times I enjoy any type of synth in a score is when it is trying to produce an effect or sound that a normal orchestra can achieve. I do not enjoy the sounds of fake cellos, violins or trumpets, when it can be done much better by real instruments. If a synthesizer can make an eerie atmospheric noise or something, like that weird little thing in the Presumed Innocent theme, then it makes sense. It adds to the effect, not detracts, like a bunch of crappy mimicking sounds trying to replicate real instruments. It's a nuisance.

Tim

[A24 4,345]

There also synth in Superman The Movie but it blends in nicely with the acoustic instruments. I'm afraid I can't say the same of Goldsmith's whoosing sounds.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Live with it.

[pi 0]

I think a lot of people here hate - or dislike - Zimmer because the average joe considers Williams and Zimmer equal film composers. All people here rightly recognize Williams as a greater musical talent. But it is clear Zimmers success (in album sales also) cannot be a fluke, the guy has some skills - synth or not. For example in the Lion King (and that other African film he did) he came up with the Zulu tunes. And all this orchestration talk is getting stretched, we all know it is Zimmer who has pioneered and mastered the industrial strings/horns thing. I am not saying he invented the french horn and strings playing together but he did make that really fat -thick sound his own. He also is mostly responsible for incorparting snyth instruments doubling the orchestra and using french horns to hit you over the head with the tune. And i did say that Rachmaninoff quite often did this (almost it exactly - check symphony number 1 last movement! you will be taken a back) but Zimmer did it in his own way and it has become an important part of modern scoring, and can also be an exciting and brutal technique/sound. Musically he is no Williams, and doesnt have that amount of skill to offer, but he is still damn good at what he does.

sorry for being the worst speller here once again.

[A24 4,345]

Live with it.

You have to remember the point I was trying to make, Stefancos. Williams was accused of using synths that draw too much attention. I'm only defending him. Of course, your preference for Goldsmith doesn't like me doing that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You picked 2 examples were the synth can be described as being a bit to much.

You didn't mention Basic Instinct, or any of his numerous scores were the synth elements work brilliantly with the orchestra.

[A24 4,345]

You picked 2 examples were the synth can be described as being a bit to much.

You didn't mention Basic Instinct, or any of his numerous scores were the synth elements work brilliantly with the orchestra.

I must disagree again. Williams would never use something as distasteful as electronic Simmons drums on his scores. Never!

[bondo 33]

Come on he is not that bad.  If he was less successful would he be hated by so many?  Or is it just fun to hate people like him?

Instead of just claiming that they don't like his music, score fans say "Zimmer sucks", implying that his music is crap and those who enjoy it are misinformed or just plain don't know music. This is, of course, crap.

You will not win this argument, because people get a kick out of bashing the latest Zimmer score with the same old comments and criticisms. But guess what? The fans get the last laugh, because Zimmer keeps scoring successful movies, and we keep getting CDs! It simply boils down to "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and you won't agree on every single thing.

[jasonblueeyes 0]

I was crazy about Zimmer in the early 90's. Rain Man, Black Rain, Days Of Thunder, Pacific Heights, Green Card, Backdraft, Thelma & Louise, Regarding Henry, Point Of No Return, True Romance, Cool Runnings. These were Great Scores. I still Love many of them especially Green Card. I even liked Toys...a little. Not So much Radio Flyer, A League Of Their Own, or A Power Of One.

I like The Lion King score but don't like the songs. I don't like Zimmer's Soft scores like As Good As It Gets, or Riding in Cars with Boys. I Loved Crimson Tide, The Fan and Gladiator but Hate The Rock and The Peacemaker.

I notice on the Pirates Of The Caribbean Sequel trailer Zimmer is the Sole credited composer this time.

[JWfangirl1992 18]

I've never really heard a Zimmer score so I'm gonna go with an open mind with the Da Vinci Code and then I'll give you my opinion.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I must disagree again. Williams would never use something as distasteful as electronic Simmons drums on his scores. Never!

Is that what it is.

It's very cool, very inventive, very Jerry.

[Panthera 0]

His music for The Lion King and The Last Samurai is good.

[David Coscina 3]

I think the resentment in Zimmer is that he has a lot of help with his scores. almost every recent score of his had ghost-writing on it. Zimmer actually does often give credit where credit is due (i.e. John Powell on Thin Red Line) but it's hard to respect anyone who approaches film scoring with an MBA/industry fashion. While Williams and Goldsmith often used orchestrators, they still retained total creative control over the music they wrote. Zimmer doesn't. He has a cottage industry/assembly line approach to composing which is antithetical to what most of us believe is the right way to go about composing.

I don't "hate" Zimmer. He actually appears to be a very good natured person. I just don't think he should be the epitomy of what film scoring is all about. Williams on the other hand serves as a superb figure-head to writing music that's complex, exciting, and works well with the narrative. I just saw Memoirs of a Geisha for the third time and the music underscore is excellent. It works so well with the film. And works well outside the film too.

[orrakul 0]

Fiery Angel is correct.

John Williams is a gourmet chef compared to Hans Zimmer's greasy spoon cook.

[David Coscina 3]

Thanks orrakul.

[Trent B 337]

Instead of just claiming that they don't like his music, score fans say "Zimmer sucks", implying that his music is crap and those who enjoy it are misinformed or just plain don't know music. This is, of course, crap.  

I know this wasn't directed at me however...

Well I got news for you pal, I know film score music and I've heard Zimmer's work and I think it does suck. For the most part I really do NOT like synth orchestras at all.

Yes I did say I have two Star Wars fan film scores which are synth but that's because I liked hearing them in the fan films and I enjoy listening to those two scores that I have. Other than that I really DO NOT like synth orchestras. I perfer real orchestras.

I'll say it again to ME Zimmer's music sucks.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Well if we're going to base the suckyness of music off of the technical sound of things....

Star Wars sucks...because it was an analog recording. And I can't stand analog recordings.

Granted, there was no choice for digital... LOL

[Trent B 337]

That's not really a fair comparison...

Digital recorders weren't invented yet back then...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

And Dont tell me Zimmer doesnt have the option to ask for a real orchestra.

[Ollie 1,059]

Something positive?

Ok he seems like a very nice person.

[A24 4,345]

And I can't stand analog recordings. Granted, there was no choice for digital... LOL

Oh, boy.