Zimmer Sued by Holst Foundation

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Zimmer news.

LOL

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Zimmer news.

LOL

Wow.

Really...they said they are not similar, yeah right.

[Antineutrino 0]

They're not really more similar than the Holst quotes in Star Wars...or The Right Stuff...or Braveheart...or Rudy...or..........*zzzz*

[Morlock 11]

There are many scores that use the Holst rythem. People seem to think Gladiator is the worst/most blatant of the bunch because it's Zimmer, that's all. He made darn good use of something that is part of the idiom of film music.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

The only good usage of that music is when played by an orchestra, not beefed up with synth

[Greg1138 3]

Yep - the battle over whether or not "Gladiator" truly copies Holst's "Mars - The Bringer Of War" finally goes to the Courts. A representative from J Curwen & Sons, who held the copyright to Holst's work until last year and are also taking action in conjunction with the Holst Foundation, states "After a considerable period of discussion between the two parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the Courts". The lawsuit seems to centre around music that was written for some of the battle scenes.

Zimmer's lawyer states "Mr Zimmer's work on 'Gladiator' is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy of 'Mars'. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener this claim has no merit."

Your thoughts?

[scissorhands 16]

I needed to check out today is not April's Fool.

I still can't believe this news. Beware, Johnny, you're the next one...

[Greg1138 3]

Strangely I can find no mention of this lawsuit anywhere on the net.......yet.......but a reputable UK newspaper has reported it and the quotes appear genuine......

[Quintus 5,399]

I assume they're mainly referring to The Battle Ballet? What a load of bullshit. Sure, there exists some nods to Mars, but thats about it.

Its a single repeated note for christs sake, it keeps the tempo. This will go in Zimmers favour.

TGE - Who thinks the Gladiator score is outstanding.

[gkgyver 1,646]

the same language, the same vocabulary, if not the same syntax

I wonder whether Zimmer actually knows what he's talking about here.

[Justin 2]

So when is Yared going to get sued for Troy?

Justin - :roll:

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

So when is Yared going to get sued for Troy?

Justin - :roll:

that is something i noticed too.

I was making a lits os holst quotes in film scores but i forgot to finish it...

[Hitch 57]

Here is the full article as appeared in the UK newspaper THE MAIL ON SUNDAY dated June 11 2006..

GLADIATOR'S NEW BATTLE...IN COPYRIGHT COURT by Ewan Fletcher.

The Hollywood composer of the score for the hit film Gladiator is being sued by representatives of Gustav Holst. They claim some of Hans Zimmer's stirring Oscar-nominated music for the Roman epic starring Russell Crowe is remarkably similar to the late English classical composer's famous Planets suite. In particular, they say the battle music is reminiscent of the Mars, The Bringer of War section of Holst's work.

If they win their claim for infringement of copyright, they could make millions. CD sales of the film's soundtrack have gone platinum, while the movie itself has made £248 million worldwide. Although Holst died in 1934, his work remained protected by copyright until January last year. Gladiator was released in 2000.

The action against Mr Zimmer is being taken by the Holst Foundation, based in Aldeburgh, Suffolk, England and London publisher J Curwen & Sons, which held the copyright of Holst's works. A Curwen spokesman said "After a considerable period of discussion between the 2 parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the courts." It is understood that a writ has been issued.

Mr Zimmer admits in the CD sleeve notes that people find the pieces similar, but say he uses "the same language, the same vocabulary, if not the same syntax". But he will resist the legal claim. His lawyer said: "Mr Zimmer's work on Gladiator is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy of Mars. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener this claim has no merit".

[Ollie 1,059]

Eh...... :roll:

[Sandor 797]

If the foundation win their claim for infringement of copyright they could make millions of dollars, because sales of the film's soundtrack have gone platinum.

It makes you wonder what the REAL reason for all this is...

[Hitch 57]

Yes...sue John Williams' bony ass and Cliff Eidelman's not so bony ass.

[Ollie 1,059]

Zimmer's use was a little more blatant. Eidelmann basically re-wrote Mars making it his own and I still think Williams made it his own as well.

[John Crichton 4]

I guess the next logical step for Horner to sue Horner.

[Sandor 797]

The point is: it's all about the money guys. I guess that song from a very years ago by Meja was right. This has nothing to do with preserving the artistic integrity of Holst.

And for those who disagree: if The Holst Foundation really deserves to win this then Les Baxter should have won too when he sued John Williams about the E.T. Theme back in 1982!!

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Well i also thought it was for the money (then they shouldnt win) but it seems they have been arguing about it for a long time, just that it got public now.

I just heard Yared's use in troy and well, i hope he considers himself lucky that he was rejected since it is more blattant than zimmer.

[Composer_Fan 2]

I guess the next logical step for Horner to sue Horner.

LOL

[Jeshopk 8]

I thought a while back when Gladiator came out I heard that the soundtrack or the movie credits gave credit to Holst for that. It was basically just a Mars remix, I thought.

People trying to say that Star Wars or Eidelman's Star Trek is in any way near as similar to Mars as the Gladiator track need to get their heads examined.

[Romão 2,274]

Or Kilar's Dracula.

[Jeshopk 8]

if The Holst Foundation really deserves to win this then Les Baxter should have won too when he sued John Williams about the E.T. Theme back in 1982!!

No, because in this case it is almost exactly the same, while in the other case there were many differences.

Or Kilar's Dracula.

There's Mars inspiration there perhaps, but not Mars re-use.

[Romão 2,274]

The could sue Horner for Braveheart.

[Jeshopk 8]

Its a single repeated note for christs sake, it keeps the tempo. This will go in Zimmers favour.

That's not the case. Much more of Mars is directly lifted than just the ostinato. Clearly, it is a very slight re-arrangement of the exact same orchestration, countermelodies, etc. Mostly, it is not even re-arranged at all, just cut up a little, like the Fantasia version of Rite of Spring compared to the original.

[Quintus 5,399]

if The Holst Foundation really deserves to win this then Les Baxter should have won too when he sued John Williams about the E.T. Theme back in 1982!!

No, because in this case it is almost exactly the same, while in the other case there were many differences.

Damn I keep reading about this ET case yet I find no internet sign of it. Please tell me the ET theme is original to Williams! Or at least provide an audio link so I can see for myself

[Jeshopk 8]

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2...wsuit_Recap.asp

Here's the link with information.

[Sandor 797]

Jes; I don't really agree. Les Baxter's Joy is as close to the Flying theme as Zimmer's Gladiator (The Battle) is to Mars. If not closer!

And to be honest; I think Holst would be ashamed. In the world of classical music it was quite common to incorporate music of other composers (sometimes quoting a piece directly). It was a sign of respect. Zimmer never made it a secret that he was inspired by Holst. I think he would have been honored by it in fact.

Of course his family sees those $$$$$ signs....

[Jeshopk 8]

Jes; I don't really agree. Les Baxter's Joy is as close to the Flying theme as Zimmer's Gladiator (The Battle) is to Mars. If not closer!

Part of the beginning of the melody is the same. "Joy" is a jazzy lounge piece that shares what is called a major key "turn" and a descending 4th. The turn used to be so common that there is actually a musical symbol that is used to indicate it so that a composer did not have to notate it all out.

It is an element of music. In the Gladiator/Mars dispute, it sticks very closely to the original in all ways. Mainly it is a remix.

It was a sign of respect. Zimmer never made it a secret that he was inspired by Holst. I think he would have been honored by it in fact.

It was not common for composers to make very slight variatons other composers' pieces and then make lots of money off it. Quotations of yore were melodic quotations much like how the "Here comes the bride" was used for the wedding scene in Terminal. Variations were very, very different interpretations of existing melodies.

[Sandor 797]

I remembered reading a small Enya interview in Veronica Magazine around 2002 and when asked how she reacted to the Titanic score she said she was "thrilled". Of course, Horner's Southhampton cue is REALLY close to Enya's End Of Days.

I'm sure if Holst would know how influential his Planets suite has become, he would be equally "thrilled". What composer wouldn't?

But if Enya died before Titanic was released, probably some sort of "Enya Foundation" would have Horner in court wanting to cash in on the soundtrack!

[nightscape94 965]

Now I really want to hear that Les Baxter piece, but I'm having trouble finding it!

Tim

[Quintus 5,399]

Now I really want to hear that Les Baxter piece, but I'm having trouble finding it!

Tim

Me too. I've read that report before. But I could never find the plaintiff's piece, online at least.

[Sandor 797]

Believe me; you won't find it online. I had to listen to it at a Virgin Megastore in London.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Of course, Horner's Southhampton cue is REALLY close to Enya's End Of Days.  

Book of Days...

But dont all Enya's songs sound the same any way?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This is another bogus law suit.

If they sue Zimmer then they should also sue Williams for Star Wars and Harry Potter (The Chess Game), Silvesti for The Quick And The Dead, Kilar for Dracula and Trevor Jones for Last Of The Mohicans.

[Romão 2,274]

I still don't see any resemblance between Mars and the Chess Game.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The percussion line is identical.

[ChrisAfonso 188]

No, it's not. The one in Horner's "Leave no witnesses" from Mask of Zorro is, though.

[Jeshopk 8]

The percussion line is identical.

That's just not true

Mars is 8 notes while Chess is 12

[Incanus 5,722]

I think the Holst Foundation has gone greedy. There is no other reason for this ridiculous law suit. There are plenty of examples of composers taking their inspiration from Holst and they are not sued. Why Zimmer then? This really shows poor judgement on the part of the Holst Foundation. Poor judgement and poor taste to take this thing up after so many years. I guess it took about 6 years to decide what amount of money should they sue Zimmer for.

:roll:

[Sandor 797]

Why Zimmer then?

It's the Gladiator soundtrack, one of the best selling score albums ever. They want to cash in on it. It's as simple as that.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Yet not for Star Wars, which was even more popular?

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I can barely relate Mars with Star Wars more than three lifted percussion blasts from Rebel blocade runner, and the style is similar in Destructiopn of death star, and Tie fighter attack end like Mars, but Williams did his homework right.

[Sandor 797]

Yet not for Star Wars, which was even more popular?

That was almost 30 years ago. And totally different times.

And Gladiator is more obvious than Star Wars.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Then again, Mars is the Roman God of War...

[Ollie 1,059]

True.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

But Holst didnt really had in mind the Greek gods when writing the music.

Just Mars and Mercury are the ones that match.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That wasn't so much my point. But then, Mars still has the subtitle The Bringer of War.

[Incanus 5,722]

Well I think Holst was influenced by the characters of the both Roman and Greek gods when he created the Planets. All the parts of the suite fit the image of the gods quite well. And after all the planets are named after the old gods so why should there not be an influence.