Anakin's Betrayal - City Under Ice

[boom-tzzzz 0]

Maybe this came up before, but did you notice that the main motif from "Anakin's Betrayal" (Lament) ressembles the motif of the first two minutes of "Stored Memories" from A.I.??

[Sixers 0]

Yeah, John Williams does things like that all the time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,282]

Of course if Horner does it, he gets bashed.....

[ChrisAfonso 189]

Even at reusing his themes, Williams has ultimately more skill than Horner.

[Red 75]

What are some other examples of this?

[GoodMusician 56]

the difference is that you almost don't notice it because he elaborates on it so well, orchestrates it so differently... that it is in essence, very different.

AI's track, 'Abandoned in the Woods' spawned Episode II's 'Across the Stars' B section (2:02)

[deleted account 108]

And then ATS's B-section resurfaced in Catch Me If You Can...

[John Crichton 4]

And don't forget the infamous No Ticket=Gilderoy Lockhart.

[Ollie 1,069]

But that was almost 14 years apart.

[King Mark 3,635]

Knight Bus=Synfonietta for Wind Ensemble Mvt.3

"Boggarts" scene in PoA=the unreleased banquet scene in ToD(each time a weird dish is served in ToD there's similar music to when a boggart is cast in PoA).

Anakin's Betrayal=Refugee Status

K.M.Who thinks it's not the same as horner's self ripoffs

[Luke Skywalker 1,824]

Cowboys love/personal theme - Men of the Yorktown March - Kent Family theme (from Superman)

Just to note that this happened in Williams' ''supposed'' golden age

[Richard Penna 3,824]

Allow me to elaborate on that last comparison:

Cowboys open space/love/personal/whatever it is theme - Kent Family Theme - Jesus of Nazareth Theme - Medal of Honor Allied Assault Theme.

And yes, Horner gets bashed, but doesn't just use the same sort of idea and put it in a completely different context - he reuses the exact motif (danger) and then changes one note from the Braveheart theme and hopes we won't notice.

Everyone does it. I've noticed a lot of Tom Newman themes are based around 3 ascending notes but they're all still good.

[Luke Skywalker 1,824]

Allow me to elaborate on that last comparison:

Cowboys open space/love/personal/whatever it is theme - Kent Family Theme - Jesus of Nazareth Theme - Medal of Honor Allied Assault Theme.

Where is the Yorktown march?

MOHAA... i'll check it.

NO wonder it sounded so Williamsy, i suppose

[Frosty 0]

And Superman's "Trip to Earth" is actually Yoda's Theme"

[Henry B 51]

Maybe this came up before, but did you notice that the main motif from "Anakin's Betrayal" (Lament) ressembles the motif of the first two minutes of "Stored Memories" from A.I.??

That's the Dies Irae motif. I've cited its appearances before:

Star Wars:

"Tales of a Jedi Knight/Learn About the Force" 3:30-3:48

Close Encounters of the Third Kind:

"The Mountain" motif; see "Forming the Mountain," "Roy and Gillian on the Road," etc.

Home Alone:

"Carol of the Bells" motif; appearances of Marley, "Setting the Trap," etc.

Jurassic Park:

secondary theme; see beginning of "High Wire Stunts"

A.I. - Artificial Intelligence:

"Stored Memories"

Attack of the Clones/Revenge of the Sith:

"Lament"/"Anakin's Betrayal" motif; see "Anakin's Betrayal," end of "Anakin's Dark Deeds," unreleased music (all unreleased in Clones)

War of the Worlds:

"Epilogue" 0:21-1:51

Up to debate, of course.

[JMan 0]

YEP! Absolutley!

[Pelzter 0]

Williams clearly repeats writing styles from project from project, especially his more recent, dramatic string work.

Ray and Rachael from WotW is basically underscore from The Patriot, which again, is basically The Long Road to Justice and other pieces from Amistad. And so forth; the list goes on.

This does not bother me at all however, since Williams has a unique ability to keep this from the casual, and even experienced listener's ear. I'd often go years without realising the often quite dramatic similarities between pieces - unlike Horner, which I think is an important difference between the two.

--Pelzter

[JMan 0]

Williams clearly repeats writing styles from project from project, especially his more recent, dramatic string work.  

Ray and Rachael from WotW is basically underscore from The Patriot, which again, is basically The Long Road to Justice and other pieces from Amistad. And so forth; the list goes on.

This does not bother me at all however, since Williams has a unique ability to keep this from the casual, and even experienced listener's ear. I'd often go years without realising the often quite dramatic similarities between pieces - unlike Horner, which I think is an important difference between the two.

--Pelzter

I agree with that. Most of Horner's music is not only repetitive but cheesy.

[Ollie 1,069]

Actually boring and predictable would be a better explanation for Horner's music.

[Trent B 337]

Actually boring and predictable would be a better explanation for Horner's music.

At least with most of his later works. His earlier works like from the 80's and 90's is pretty good and enjoyable.

[Pelzter 0]

Upon further pondering, Morricone actually share Williams' talent for 'disguising' similar harmonies and chord progressions. It was only very recently, that I discovered that the main theme from Malena (2000) begin in almost the exact same way as Deborah's Theme from Once Upon a Time in America (1984) - both very beloved themes of mine. And yet it took me a very long time to realize it. I do not know why, but I do know that Horners variations are much more blatant, for whatever reason.

Incidentally, the lush, slow string writing in Susan Speaks from The Patriot (2000) sounds very much like those two tracks as well.

--Pelzter.

[Red 75]

Most composers copy themselves at one point or another. Williams just seems to do better than anyone else.

[deleted account 108]

Horner wouldn't be quite so bad if he only copied himself - but he also plagarizes other composers and then denies he's done it.

(BTW, that COWBOYS/SUPERMAN HOME THEME also forms the basis for the opening theme from JFK)

[Ollie 1,069]

If you think of how music Williams has written it makes sense that there will be similarities.

Goldsmith found a set of notes that he nearly used in every score over the last 6 years of his career.

[Dole 17]

One of my favorite composer stories is when someone confronted Bernard Herrmann about some similar sounding music in a couple of his scores and he responded something along the lines of "Of course the music sounds similar. It was written by the same person you f*&%ing idiot!"

Oh and I think the worst example for JW is The Unfinished Journey which is just Williams completely plaigarizing himself from start to finish (Amistad, The Last Crusade, Far and Away, Empire of the Sun, etc.)

Dole

[bondo 33]

Newsflash - it's not just Horner and MediaVentures, most composers do that.....

[GoodMusician 56]

it's called 'sound.'

Certain composers use similar intervols and such to create a sound. Thedifference between John Williams using this and others is that he has such a broad palate that even when he uses the same motif, it SOUNDS difference.

Or, even if it's similar, it still isn't recognizeable. I didn't realize the similarities between City under Ice aka 'Stored Memories,' and Anakin Betrayal until this thread... and I LOOOOVE AI and I've been working on my complete Episode III edit again as I did earlier this year... so I've been working intimately close with this and it never dawned on me lol...

I guess my point is, composers have certain soundscapes they like or enjoy... or that they can pull from, but in this case, JW will do that but have it just so subtely different that you dont' realize you've heard it from him before.

Now there are cases where this isn't true... but there are exceptions to everything...

I don't enjoy the pieces any less. Now, comparing it to theoriginal version of the track, they are quite different. But Steven Speilberg went for the one that was very similar to what would later become Anakin's Betrayal.

Cybertronics also has a similar theme but again, is vastly different in it's inflection, feeling, tone, and sound. It's very strained, and robotic and yet...searching...searching...

Anakin's Betrayal is just purely operatic death... and chilling at that... it's loud... bousterous...and just...grave...

Neither peiece from AI conveys this sense of tragedy.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Most composers copy themselves at one point or another. Williams just seems to do better than anyone else.

The thing is, would u consider it 'copying', or 'developing an earlier idea'? I can imagine myself as an artist wanting to develop ideas I've come up with earlier.

[Red 75]

I'm sure Williams develops past ideas some of the time, but I don't know about every single time.

[GoodMusician 56]

I personally don't think that John Williams sits around thinking this stuff out that much....

Personally, I believe that he probably just goes on instinct... on what feels right... and in that, it's easy to inadvertently copy himself and the like...

I could be wrong, but when I imagine him composing, I imagine it almost like a spiritual experience... that he lets himself tap into something else and uses his instinct and schooling to focus this. If this is so, then I don't think he really thinks "Well, I'm gonna take this piece from AI..." or what not... You know?

Again, I could be wrong, but this is what I imagine... and how I compose...

[Pelzter 0]

Cybertronics is Williams in Khachaturian mode, which I think is fantastic. The tracks feels like a natural continuation or supplement piece to The Gayane Ballet Adagio (which Horner UTILIZED, not copied, to great extent in Aliens).

--Pelzter.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Did he really copy himself, or is it possible, considering the mammoth amount of music he has written, heard and played in his life that he hears an idea in his head, thinks it's completely new, and uses it? I'm sure he doesn't remember everything he's written, and we know that he doesn't go back and listen to his earlier work.

[boom-tzzzz 0]

I've often heard about the Dies Irae Motif - but who composed it? Where is it from?

Henry

[claesgrufman 0]

I might be wrong (just reminiscing off the top of my head from a score I haven't even owned in years), but doesn't the Dies Irae appear at the start of "Hell's Kitchen" in Sleepers?

EDIT: Also, the four-note motif that runs through "Devil's Dance" from Witches of Eastwick is the Dies Irae, but shifted one beat forward.

[ChrisAfonso 189]

Huh? That's a four note motif, but not the dies irae... I don't get what you mean by "shifted one beat forward".

DD: d f c# e

DI: f e f d (e c d d f f g f e d c e f e d d ... to complete it... nowhere do i find a succession of notes that resembles the DD motif)

[claesgrufman 0]

You are correct. I got the theme mixed up in my head. It is true of The Omen, however. Or...?

[ChrisAfonso 189]

From what I remember from the Omen, yes. And even: You could say it's shifted one beat, but you can also see it as being backwards (what's the english term for this? The german is "Krebs"), therefore being a twisted version of a christian symbol, just like the usual "upside-down cross" things etc.

[Trumpeteer 302]

Mozart came up with the "Dies Irae." Watch "Amadeus" to see how it was created. At least how Peter Shaffer and Milos Forman think it was created.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,282]

As brilliant as that film is, it is not historically accurate.

[Ollie 1,069]

Yes I would imagine there were some fictional events.

[Red 75]

The thing is, it doesn't have to be. If I wanted the biography of Mozart, I'd watch the biography of Mozart. Last school year, I tried to get my string teacher to let us watch Amadeus, but she wouldn't, not because of the quality of the film, or the relevance it had at the time (it was Mozart's birthday). She wouldn't let us watch it because it was "too inaccurate". Needless to say, it ticked me off.