Which do you like more?

[Josh500 1,615]

I am listening to ToD constantly these days (as if in antipation of the new Indy), and I got to thinking that ToD and AotC have a lot in common. Not because the themes are so similar, but because they are the middle part of a trilogy and somehow they have the same musical texture, if you know what I mean. PM and Raiders both are more serious and sombre musically, I think, whereas AotC and ToD are more action-oriented, more emotional and passionate, and just more intense--if that's the right word.

For instance:

AotC has this huge love theme Across the Stars . . . ToD has an almost equally sweeping love theme.

AotC has Chase through Coruscant, one of JW's best examples of chase music . . . ToD has Streets of Shanghai.

AotC has Jango's Escape . . . ToD has The Mine Car Chase.

AotC incorporates the mencacing Imperial March . . . ToD has the equally menacing (although slightly comic) theme of the bad guys (forgot what it's called).

My question is, which of these two do you prefer, and why?

[Ollie 1,059]

There's no comparison, TOD kicks AOTC ass. It's not even close. There is so much worthy unreleased music from TOD that I wouldn't care if they never released an expanded AOTC if it meant getting an expanded TOD.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

You compare Jango's Escape with The Mine Car Chase?

Seriously, there is no competition here. Temple of Doom is a no-brainer.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Is this serious?

[Josh500 1,615]

You compare Jango's Escape with TheMine Car Chase? :?Seriously, there is no competition here. Temple of Doom is a no-brainer.

You can compare anything to anything, IMO. I was comparing those cues on the basis of them both being "escape" music.

Is this serious?

No, this is big Halloween joke. Just for you!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I knew it!!!

Seriously, I doubt the results will be too surprising. I'm guessing it'll be 78% TOD, 22% AOTC

[Josh500 1,615]

I knew it!!!

Seriously, I doubt the results will be too surprising. I'm guessing it'll be 78% TOD, 22% AOTC

Could this be funnier?

Well, I'm not so much interested in the poll results as in hearing what people have to say about ToD.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

You compare Jango's Escape with TheMine Car Chase? :?Seriously, there is no competition here. Temple of Doom is a no-brainer.

You can compare anything to anything, IMO. I was comparing those cues on the basis of them both being "escape" music.

Yet they are very different pieces, musically. Since this discussion is about the music itself, the comparison seems slightly... off.

This is just silly, though.

Temple of Doom is one of Williams' biggest and most fun scores ever. It's from the last of his golden years, and while there's already great stuff on the OST, the album doesn't do the full thing justice at all.

Attack of the Clones is merely a decent movie score, a sub-par Star Wars score, and the album leaves very little to be desired (it's actually one of Williams best album selections, I think).

Temple of Doom is Williams pulling out all the stops and going to town to have great fun all night.

Attack of the Clones is a score that leaves a good chunk of its thematic development unresolved, thanks to the lack of a good cue for the Clone Wars sequence (The Arena is a fairly nice action track, but it's not where the meat of the story's resolving action takes place, so it leaves me unfulfilled). It's Williams trying to fill in the blanks between tracked music. Not as much fun, but it does leave the sour hangover that's completely absent from the wonderful ToD.

Come to think of it, a more interesting comparison might be Temple of Doom vs. The Empire Strikes Back.

Both sequel scores.

Both wall-to-wall while their predecessors were not.

Both frickin' huge.

Both fan favorites.

I'm not sure if I could choose between those two. The absent of a complete Temple of Doom release makes it even harder to judge.

[Josh500 1,615]

You compare Jango's Escape with TheMine Car Chase? :?Seriously, there is no competition here. Temple of Doom is a no-brainer.

You can compare anything to anything, IMO. I was comparing those cues on the basis of them both being "escape" music.

Yet they are very different pieces, musically. Since this discussion is about the music itself, the comparison seems slightly... off.

This is just silly, though.

Temple of Doom is one of Williams' biggest and most fun scores ever.

Attack of the Clones is merely a decent movie score, a sub-par Star Wars score, and the album leaves very little to be desired (it's actually one of Williams best album selections, I think).

Temple of Doom is Williams pulling out all the stops and going to town to have great fun all night.

Attack of the Clones is a score that leaves a good chunk of its thematic development unresolved, thanks to the lack of a good cue for the Clone Wars sequence (The Arena is a fairly nice action track, but it's not where the meat of the story's resolving action takes place, so it leaves me unfulfilled). It's Williams trying to fill in the blanks between tracked music. Not as much fun, but it does leave the sour hangover that's completely absent from the wonderful ToD.

This is all just your opinion! That doesn't mean everybody agrees with you . . . although most probably will. I just thought those two movies/scores have a lot in common. Come to think of it, another similarity is that both movies are (probably) the worst of their respective franchise!

Come to think of it, a more interesting comparison might be Temple of Doom vs. The Empire Strikes Back.

I'm not familiar enough with the whole ESB score to compare that to anything. Why don't you start that thread?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

This is all just your opinion! That doesn't mean everybody agrees with you

Why the attitude? He's answering the question of your thread!

[Josh500 1,615]

This is all just your opinion! That doesn't mean everybody agrees with you

Why the attitude? He's answering the question of your thread!

Why attitutide? I was saying that in a calm, reasonable voice . . . (Although he called the whole thread silly!)

I should have written, "This is all just your opinion! That doesn't mean everybody agrees with you. . . . "

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

It just sounded argumentative...damn inflection-less Internet!

[mahler3 478]

This is all just your opinion! That doesn't mean everybody agrees with you

Why the attitude? He's answering the question of your thread!

Well put, I really can't see the resemblances with these scores either Josh, sorry.

And Ray, love your avatar!!!!

[Trumpeteer 302]

Who's the idiot who voted for AOTC?

As Marc said, there should be no contest.

[Josh500 1,615]

Who's the idiot who voted for AOTC?

As Marc said, there should be no contest.

Well, there are 2 idiots, to use your word.

Some people here are too easily upset by such things, IMO. What's the big deal? You like ToD better, fine. Vote for that. If you happen to like AotC better, vote for that!

And there's no need to attack the person(s) who don't agree with the majority, either! What are we, kindergarteners?

They are just film scores, for Pete's sake, and not George W. Bush vs. John Kerry!

[Henry B 50]

I like Attack of the Clones a lot better than a lot of members here. It's a smart and understated score, much superior to the loud and inconsistent Revenge of the Sith. Of course, Temple of Doom is excellent. Abstain.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

This is all just your opinion!

Yes. But it happens to be one of my strongest. AotC has nothing on ToD. Period.

I have also at least briefly explained why I think that.

I'll try to save my threads for something other than another X vs. Y discussion, though.

Before you know it, they become popular and we'll be having another one of those Williams vs. Goldsmith debates.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

You can compare anything to anything, IMO.

You what?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I like Attack of the Clones a lot better than a lot of members here. It's a smart and understated score, much superior to the loud and inconsistent Revenge of the Sith. Of course, Temple of Doom is excellent. Abstain.

never thought I'd hear the words smart used on AOTC and its a bad score, its not better than RotS which is a mediocre score, the best music on it is from the original Star Wars.

as for comparing TOD to aotc, well thats like comparing a piece of prime beef against a piece of spoiled hamburger meat.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marc, TOD is not a sequel, it's a prequel.

AOTC is both a sequel and a prequel, however....

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Marc, TOD is not a sequel, it's a prequel.

I'm surprised you're the one who had to start whining about that.

It's a follow-up score nonetheless.

Anyway, ToD is basically a sequel to Raiders, except that the year shown at the start was changed from 1937 to 1935 at the last minute.

[bondo 33]

TEMPLE OF DOOM

No contest

[Delorean90 42]

...except that the year shown at the start was changed from 1937 to 1935 at the last minute.

Where did you hear that?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

...um...

If I answered, I'd be dignifying a silly question.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

...except that the year shown at the start was changed from 1937 to 1935 at the last minute.

Where did you hear that?

I haven't heard this literally as such, but there are several hints at this. At least enough for me personally to place it after Raiders rather than before it. It makes more sense continuity-wise.

- There's a direct reference to The Basket Chase.

- There's a mention of the Japanese bombing Shanghai. This happened on August 14th, 1937.

- Indy using incantations does not match with his "religious hocus pocus" attitude in the beginning of Raiders.

It seems like a late change to me (although the final shooting script did apparently have "1935" already in the title card).

[tpigeon 3]

Well, we certainly have a consensus. But so far, few have articulated a reasoning as to why the Temple of Doom score is so superior. I like them both quite a bit, and I think it's unfair to compare them in the sense that Temple of Doom provided Williams more opportunity to write a loud, adventurous score with numerous themes and motifs; the kinds of things that he is famous for. Attack of the Clones is a different kind of good, but it's still quite good, I think. I agree that the Chase through Coruscant is a very unique cue, and I love how it complements the colorful visuals of the scene; definitely a change of pace, though, at least by Williams standards. A more traditional cue like Jango's Escape isn't particularly interesting though, especially compared to the amazingly frenzied music that was written for the last 20 minutes of Temple of Doom. When it comes to love themes, Across the Stars is more epic and bittersweet, whereas the Temple of Doom love theme is epic in a superficial way, as it was written that way intentionally. In that department, Attack of the Clones has Temple of Doom beat. Overall, though, I think they're tough to compare since they're doing very different things for their respective movies. Where Temple of Doom features a boisterous and at times obnoxious score (anyone else think there were one too many Raiders March quotes?) and the Attack of the Clones score is, in all honesty, much more subtle. These comments don't articulate a full argument, but they're some of my initial thoughts.

Ted

[Red 75]

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

The obvious choice, for a unnecessary thread.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

I simply echo: There's no competition IMO. Indy kicks Obi-Wan's ass.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I like Attack of the Clones a lot better than a lot of members here. It's a smart and understated score.

Indeed.

I shall remind all of you AOTC-bashers , that it is still better music than 99 % of the usual filmmuzak.

I voted for TOD but this is the clash of the titans.

[indy4 155]

I love them both, a lot. However, they are both my least favorites for their series (though still quite good). Best track from ToD is Bug Tunnel and Death Trap (IMO), best from AotC is Love Pledge and Arena (IMO). This is a very hard decision, they all have really good music in them, I'm gonna have to think about this one for a moment.

And please, for the numerous AotC haters/ToD lovers, please do not bash me for voicing my opinion and answering the question this poll asks.

[Trent B 337]

While you know me I like all the Star Wars music my vote must go to TOD.

[John Crichton 4]

I like Attack of the Clones a lot better than a lot of members here. It's a smart and understated score, much superior to the loud and inconsistent Revenge of the Sith. Of course, Temple of Doom is excellent. Abstain.

Excellently put. Though I disagree about RotS.

[Wojo 2,453]

I haven't heard this literally as such, but there are several hints at this. At least enough for me personally to place it after Raiders rather than before it. It makes more sense continuity-wise.

- There's a direct reference to The Basket Chase.

- Indy using incantations does not match with his "religious hocus pocus" attitude in the beginning of Raiders.

It seems like a late change to me (although the final shooting script did apparently have "1935" already in the title card).

I'm not disagreeing with you, ToD is far superior to AotC. It's frustrating that we don't have a complete ToD to purchase, and that which we do have is pricier than it should be.

- What is this direct reference, a musical statement or dialogue? It's been too long since I watched any Indy so I don't remember dialogue.

- That point's interesting and compels me to overanalyze. At first I thought he used that line when talking to the two government agents, but looking it up found "Oh, Marcus. What are you trying to do, scare me? You sound like my mother. We've known each other for a long time. I don't believe in magic, a lot of superstitious hocus pocus. I'm going after a find of incredible historical significance, you're talking about the boogie man. Besides, you know what a cautious fellow I am."

If he means what he says, then that line suggests at the start of the film, he is a man of science who does not subscribe to the superstitions of the cultures whose artifacts he seeks. His discussion with Brody and the government agents about the power of God with respect to the Ark, Tanis, and headpiece...while necessary backstory for the rest of us, notice the two stances. Brody is more superstitious and gloomy, saying things about the wrath of God and the invincibility of an army carrying the Ark. Indy stays objective and not showing the agents if he buys into it, because he gets the vibe that they definitely don't. "Lightening. Fire. Power of God or something." "the original stone tablets that Moses came down out of Mount Horeb and smashed if you believe in that sort of thing. Didn't you guys ever go to Sunday School?" In retrospect, comments like that offered his character an evolutionary path along the course of the story, because the powers released from the Ark at the film's climax convince him that the "hocus pocus" is real. There may be a caveat, which I'll get to. That kind of character development makes Raiders a stronger film, by having characters that grow with the story's progression and end. If Temple is introduced as a straight-up number 2 sequel, there's more a lot more "hocus pocus" to be experienced, no worries.

But if you make Temple a PRE-quel, his comments to Marcus before packing his pistol take on a new meaning. Regardless of believing Sankara to just be fortune and glory at Temple's onset, there are plenty of opportunities to witness "hocus pocus" along the way beneath Pangkot. Taking the magical stones left the village dry, and returning them healed the damage. Strange drugs control the mind at terrible cost. Hearts come out through the skin. Indy voodoo dolls hurt. Stuff like that.

He's seen "hocus pocus" before and is in denial, to reassure himself. He also knows how superstitious Brody is to begin with, doesn't want to let Brody in on what he's seen, because he's trying to reassure Brody that nothing could go wrong.

Here's the caveat. When the Ark was opened, Indy said to close their eyes in order to survive. If he didn't believe in hocus pocus (Temple is sequel), he'd want to watch as a scientific curiosity. If he did believe (Temple is prequel), the glow says bad things are going to happen. Maybe this is a stupid observation altogether; if you're tied up, the only thing you could do is close your eyes.

The only important point I see is that Last Crusade comes after Raiders because:

1) Indy's "pretty sure" he knows what the Ark looks like.

2) Brody and Sallah (mostly) play straight shooters in Raiders. In Last Crusade, for better or worse, they're used as comic relief.

In the end, all 3 Indiana Jones adventures are self-contained stories that don't leave threads hanging on from episode to episode like the Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, or some Star Trek movies do. They're more like the self-contained James Bond adventures. And overanalyzing sequel/prequel continuity isn't as important as enjoying the story.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

To love ToD, one does not automatically hate AotC.

It's just that ToD is one of John's best. Ever.

AotC is not.

- What is this direct reference, a musical statement or dialogue? It's been too long since I watched any Indy so I don't remember dialogue.

Indy wants to go for his gun when confronted with two Thuggee swordmen, only to find it isn't there. It's a visual reference, accompanied by a musical quote from the first score.

As for your explanation which I haven't included here, it seems like you are trying to find one that fits your theory. One might argue that I'm doing the same, but I can't take that scene with Marcus and Indy for anything other than what it is: underlinging the starting point of Indiana Jones's character arc throughout the film.

Here's the caveat. When the Ark was opened, Indy said to close their eyes in order to survive. If he didn't believe in hocus pocus (Temple is sequel), he'd want to watch as a scientific curiosity. If he did believe (Temple is prequel), the glow says bad things are going to happen. Maybe this is a stupid observation altogether; if you're tied up, the only thing you could do is close your eyes.

A small part deleted from the visit to the "Old Man" revealed that the headpiece to the staff of Ra contained more information: those who look directly into the Ark when it is opened will die. This bit was cut from the final version fo the film and creates a small plot hole.

The only important point I see is that Last Crusade comes after Raiders because:

1) Indy's "pretty sure" he knows what the Ark looks like.

2) Brody and Sallah (mostly) play straight shooters in Raiders. In Last Crusade, for better or worse, they're used as comic relief.

Obviously, I would never argue otherwise. The bulk of Last Crusade was always supposed to take place after the other two films.

In the end, all 3 Indiana Jones adventures are self-contained stories that don't leave threads hanging on from episode to episode like the Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, or some Star Trek movies do. They're more like the self-contained James Bond adventures. And overanalyzing sequel/prequel continuity isn't as important as enjoying the story.

I agree, but since we were arguing semantics anyway...

[Pieter Boelen 740]

It seems like a late change to me (although the final shooting script did apparently have "1935" already in the title card).

I always did wonder why ToD was set as a prequel anyway. I think if it were set in 1937, the exact same film could play out without any conflicts with Raiders at all.

One thing is for sure: I am pretty sure that when watching the Indy films in order, you are not meant to watch ToD first. This opposed to Star Wars where I-VI is a valid order.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It seems like a late change to me (although the final shooting script did apparently have "1935" already in the title card).

I always did wonder why ToD was set as a prequel anyway. I think if it were set in 1937, the exact same film could play out without any conflicts with Raiders at all.

Exactly.

The two would actually follow each other better.

Which is why, as mentioned, I always ignore the "1935" title card and just place it after Raiders.

[Trent B 337]

I know this is sort of OT but speaking of Indy which scores do have complete or expanded versions with out sfx?

[John Crichton 4]

I know this is sort of OT but speaking of Indy which scores do have complete or expanded versions with out sfx?

Raiders has an official near-complete release, and the few unreleased cues can be gotten in decent quality.

Last Crusade is complete save a couple of cues, but the unreleased music is in horrid quality.

For ToD it's just DVD rips, but pretty clean ones compared to most other scores.

[Wojo 2,453]

A small part deleted from the visit to the "Old Man" revealed that the headpiece to the staff of Ra contained more information: those who look directly into the Ark when it is opened will die. This bit was cut from the final version fo the film and creates a small plot hole.

I never knew this! I knew his name was supposed to be Iman or something like that, but the clip of Sallah speaking his name got clipped and ended up sounding like "a man." That's a fascinating bit of trivia. I really DO need to get the Indy trilogy on DVD, I reckon.

And yet, cutting that information from the movie makes perfect sense. If we know that Indy and Marian will survive simply by closing their eyes, there's no tension. Spielberg put the audience into Marian's shoes, because no matter what Indy knows, he didn't have time to tell her why she should close her eyes, he just insists that it's very important. She thinks that they're going to die anyways, and he just didn't want her to watch.

It's unfortunate that to create that tension, a plot hole must be created. The audience is not allowed to know that Indy knows how to survive, because doing so would remove the thrill of all the ghosts and face melting in the final sequence. Even if the old man whispered something into Indy's ear and we can't hear it, it'd be impossible to know that is the information he was given. To know when the fact is told to him without knowing the fact itself would be a paradox. The only way to resolve the plot hole would be to find out after they survive; Marian would ask "how'd you know to do that?" and Indy would say "oh, this old guy that you didn't meet and I didn't tell you about told me." That's lame, chatty, and out of character for both. The adrenaline rush of survival doesn't lend itself to chatty dialogue. Plus it'd ruin the nice scene of the two survivors and the Ark sitting on the pedestal.

However, there is another explanation to the cut. The film establishes to the government agents that the Ark contains the power of God, which makes the army carrying it invincible. Whatever is in the Ark, then, is power not of this earth. To look upon it might be very similar to looking upon the face of God. If Moses wasn't worthy enough to gaze directly, then certainly the soldiers who had stolen and killed their way to the Ark would not be worthy either. Indy deduces this, figures that while tied up he's got nothing else to lose but his life, and tells it to Marian in the extreme attempt to save their life. This means no plot hole exists, because Indy established early on he clearly remembers his Sunday school.

[Jacob 0]

Indy kicks Obi-Wan's ass.

But there are alternatives to fighting.

[indy4 155]

However, there is another explanation to the cut. The film establishes to the government agents that the Ark contains the power of God, which makes the army carrying it invincible. Whatever is in the Ark, then, is power not of this earth. To look upon it might be very similar to looking upon the face of God. If Moses wasn't worthy enough to gaze directly, then certainly the soldiers who had stolen and killed their way to the Ark would not be worthy either. Indy deduces this, figures that while tied up he's got nothing else to lose but his life, and tells it to Marian in the extreme attempt to save their life. This means no plot hole exists, because Indy established early on he clearly remembers his Sunday school.

Or God realizes that Indy is a good guy, so he gives him this knowledge.

[Jacob 0]

With the way he breaks practically all Ten Commandments every movie? Not a chance.

"You wanna talk to God? Let's go see Him together. I've got nothing better to do."

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This is such a non-issue.

And there is no plot hole.

Indy already knows a lot about The Ark, since he was the protege of Abner Ravenwood, he could have easily have known from him that you should shield your eyes.

Indy dis not believe in supersticious hocus pocus, but when they opened the Ark and things started happening, I'm sure he had a change of heart....

Oh, and TOD is so much better then AOTC, it's not even a contest!

[indy4 155]

I finally decided to vote ToD, but it was close.