Face it, Michael Giacchino is the new John Williams

[Hellgi 0]

Besides, and as far as I know, he's simply much less of a control freak than JW is.

interesting.Care to elaborate on that?

JW controls everything from start to finish. He has trusted collaborators but always ensures that they do what *he* wants. For example, as we all know, he has orchestrators but send them pre-orchestrated sketches. When time allows, he even checks the orchestrations.

If you hear one note in a JW's score, you know he's 100% responsible for it.

When Bill Ross was working with him on Harry Potter 2, he had to send him his sketches / cues every monday morning so that JW could "check" them. (They all turned out to be fine).

Bill told me once this story: One day during the recording, Bill went in the booth to listen to some of the stuff they had recorded. For some reason, Bill didn't like the sound of it. Didn't sound like JW's recordings. He asked if it was normal to the mixers / engineers and they all said, "yes, of course, it's what John wants!". Bill was not convinced and asked them again, and they all (basically said), "don't worry about it, it's fine, we've been working with John, we know what he'll like". So they left it at that. A few days later, Bill gets a call from John who was "annoyed" (ie, pissed) at the sound quality and surprised that it didn't sound like his other scores. Bill explained that he agreed but that he got told that it was supposed to be that way. Well, JW had the mixers re-mixing all the cues.

No JW soundtrack will come out without JW's final approval. Besides the actual tracks, he also chooses the track order (yes, he's the fully responsible for putting twice the same piece of music in the same soundtrack). I would be surprised that he doesn't have the final say on the the booklet itself.

There's also the example of his "Signature" scores. He specifically goes back to his old scores, arrange them as suites, and completely clean up the orchestration, to make sure they're exactly what he wants *us* to have. So you know there's not one single note in there that's not him.

JW's aura can be felt through anything you do that's (even remotely) associated with him. He's the boss and when he *nicely* (always nicely!) tells you something, that's it, that's the way to do it. There's no discussion. Believe me, whoever still works for him understands that.

I don't think it's fair to discredit Giacchino's musical abilities on account of the fact that he uses Digital Performer to score his films. I think it's more about tight time lines than a lack of formal music education. Erik chimed in on an FSM thread with Giacchino's education which sounded pretty formal to me. You do know that Marco Beltrami, Don Davis, Dario Marianelli, Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman, and a whole slew of other Hollywood heavy-weights use DP. If you have ever used it, you will know that its the most musical sequencer to work with. Its Quickscribe editor displays one's music in sheet form, not a scroll window. To me, who has used everything from Logic to Cubase to Sonar, I find it the most natural step from traditional notation scoring in many ways. And I learned the old fashioned way with ink and manuscript (things got very messy when I was inking my conductor's score as I'm left-handed).

First of all, saying that DP is "the most musical sequencer to work with" is completely subjective. But I'll leave it at that since that's not really the topic.

I wasn't trying to imply that using DP meant being a bad composer. As you say, plenty of great composers out there use sequencers and in itself it's not an issue. Heck, my boss uses Logic and I think he's an amazing composer.

However! after working in this industry for 3 years, studying the craft for 5 more and assisting / watching many composers at work, I strongly believe that most current technological tools to "help" score a picture actually get in the way of the actual composition process.

In general, I believe computers make you think you can do things that you in fact cannot do (or at least cannot do well). It makes most "composers" think they are more than they really are (orchestrators, for one). And then they start making decisions based on that belief, and many many times they end up making, let's say... "bad" decisions. Plus, by making everything seem easy, the computers create the tendency to over-score and to over-orchestrate. How many scores today are filled with those gigantic cues where it's so hard to mix you can't even decipher the main musical lines or ideas?

I believe the "real" process of writing to a picture, the process learned and applied by the craft's masters (including JW) is a much more intellectual process. You watch the scene a few times, and then you get into the intellectual process, where you actually have to *think* about what you just saw and how to improve it. You start to write a structure of your cue, where you don't necessarily use a steady click all the way just because it works, no, where you first think of the musical aspect of your piece of music before thinking of hitting all the cuts. You think about the dramatic effect, the emotional impact of the scene, the flow of the editing, etc.

Interestingly enough, it's not that far from the actual process of writing a "regular" composition. You only have a piece of paper, pencils, a piano (sometimes) and books on orchestration, instrumentation, styles, etc.

In that process there's no such thing as "let's pull an oboe track" or "let's get an RMX loop" or "let's bring some ready-made string effects" to help you out from your own ignorance.

You see, to me, today's film composers rely way too much on pure instincts, and then the rest follows. They are "instinctive" composers.

Guys like John Williams are "intellectual" composers.

That's why, to me, Desplat is much closer to JW, because he's an "intellectual" composer. He sketches on pencil and paper, and only use the computer at the end of process, if and when he needs to make a demo / mockup. He doesn't use it to somehow "facilitate" the writing process. I believe it ultimately transpires in his scores and the quality of his writing. (By the way, Desplat uses DP.)

Finally, saying that it's "the current industry" that forces you do use a computer, is in my mind a false argument: nobody forces you to work in *that* industry, or - at least - to work on *that* kind of movies.

By the way, a little disclaimer here - I'm guilty as charged since, on all the movies I've worked on in the past, I've used DP or Logic extensively Which doesn't mean I enjoy it or that I think that's the way to go, as you can see

But enough already, I'm ranting...

Hellgi

[TownerFan 4,983]

Plus, by making everything seem easy, the computers create the tendency to over-score and to over-orchestrate. How many scores today are filled with those gigantic cues where it's so hard to mix you can't even decipher the main musical lines or ideas?

I definitely agree. One of the thing that pisses me off more than any other is the way much of today's blockbuster scores are overblown and over-written. For example, I really don't get the abundance of the use of choir. It's really overused and in many cases it doesn't add anything to the musical architecture, it just used to make the cue bigger and louder.

Very interesting post, Hellgi. Thanks!

[David Coscina 3]

First of all, saying that DP is "the most musical sequencer to work with" is completely subjective. But I'll leave it at that since that's not really the topic.

I grant you that was a subjective call. I find Logic very good too because I work in notation and not those silly piano roll or midi editor windows.

However! after working in this industry for 3 years, studying the craft for 5 more and assisting / watching many composers at work, I strongly believe that most current technological tools to "help" score a picture actually get in the way of the actual composition process.

I whole-heartedly agree. Ever notice the lack of rubato in MIDI composers' cues compared to Williams or even Horner? Working on a full score with pencil in hand (or else on Finale, Sibelius or even NOtion) allows more flexibility and freedom of expression. But even with those programs, I feel like I'm typing with boxing gloves on sometimes. In the end, it's far easier for me to write down a complex rhythmic figure or passage than try to figure out Finale or whatever.

In general, I believe computers make you think you can do things that you in fact cannot do (or at least cannot do well). It makes most "composers" think they are more than they really are (orchestrators, for one). And then they start making decisions based on that belief, and many many times they end up making, let's say... "bad" decisions. Plus, by making everything seem easy, the computers create the tendency to over-score and to over-orchestrate. How many scores today are filled with those gigantic cues where it's so hard to mix you can't even decipher the main musical lines or ideas?

My friend, we are more like-minded than you think! I have gone on record at FSM many times lamenting the advent of these tools because of exactly what you describe in your post. Sadly, I'm smacked down (even on music forums!) with the disclaimer that I'm elitist. I guess you are too so I'm in good company!

I believe the "real" process of writing to a picture, the process learned and applied by the craft's masters (including JW) is a much more intellectual process. You watch the scene a few times, and then you get into the intellectual process, where you actually have to *think* about what you just saw and how to improve it. You start to write a structure of your cue, where you don't necessarily use a steady click all the way just because it works, no, where you first think of the musical aspect of your piece of music before thinking of hitting all the cuts. You think about the dramatic effect, the emotional impact of the scene, the flow of the editing, etc.

Absolutely. When I worked on some small scores in the '90s, I spotted the film and then composed AWAY from the picture using timings as my guide to hitting some of the action. Otherwise I did the same thing you describe. And Williams does this too...although I argued with an engineer in Toronto who said Williams used SMPTE and synths. I said "dude, he uses pencil, paper and piano". The guy wouldn't believe me.

As for orchestration, I believe what Herrmann said- orchestrating and composing are one in the same. I don't think I could do a 4 stave reduction without putting half a million markings in to ensure the sound I heard was correct. I have seen Williams 8 stave sketches and EVERYTHING is there. Which is why regardless of the orchestrator he's using, his music has the same "sound" and stylistic traits. Because it's all coming out of his head, not anyone elses!

Sadly, the Brian Tyler's of the world wouldn't know the tunings on the open strings of the string choir and most fans would say "why should he"? Well, it helps when you want to write triple stops perhaps!

You see, to me, today's film composers rely way too much on pure instincts, and then the rest follows. They are "instinctive" composers.

I agree. I tried scoring a Quicktime video to picture using DP. I found it too distracting. And my writing was idiomatic too. Very knee-jerk reaction. I ascribe this to the fact that our primary sense is our vision and that will dominate when it's the primary receiver of stimuli. As a composer, it's important to rid one's self of these visual distractions like you say to write better music. This is why Williams' music AWAY from picture is so enjoyable. It is its own musical entity. I do find it hard to listen to Giacchino's work away from its narrative source as his music is inextricably tied to those associations. Although I think his Cloverfield Overture is a fun listen with no visual associations, aside from Ifukube's influence.

That's why, to me, Desplat is much closer to JW, because he's an "intellectual" composer. He sketches on pencil and paper, and only use the computer at the end of process, if and when he needs to make a demo / mockup. He doesn't use it to somehow "facilitate" the writing process. I believe it ultimately transpires in his scores and the quality of his writing. (By the way, Desplat uses DP.)

You can tell he's solid in his interviews. He talks about music, not Hollywood BS. And it's evident in his music. There's a clarity that comes from studying music, especially Bach and composers who employed counterpoint. I find, like you, too many MIDI composers suffer from the STACK effect which is layering line upon line upon line until there's this mass of sound. Even the most dense Williams cue has a clarity of inner linear motion. It's funny when fans talk about how a big orchestra equals a BIG score. I heard John Adams' Harmonium which was for large orchestra (he was conducting it himself) and then on the same concert, he conducted Sibelius' 5Th Symphony which was scored for smaller orchestra. It sounded just as large because Sibelius knew what the hell he was doing in terms of orchestration. Mahler is another good example of clarity of writing.

Finally, saying that it's "the current industry" that forces you do use a computer, is in my mind a false argument: nobody forces you to work in *that* industry, or - at least - to work on *that* kind of movies.

Well, it sounds like you are certainly more entrenched in the Hollywood system so I will defer to you on this. My sense is that most composers, even schooled ones, use technology because of the insane schedules they are handed to deliver 80 minutes of fully orchestral music.

By the way, a little disclaimer here - I'm guilty as charged since, on all the movies I've worked on in the past, I've used DP or Logic extensively Which doesn't mean I enjoy it or that I think that's the way to go, as you can see

Yeah, I am too. But I use sequencers almost like a sculptor. Many many times have I removed lines or doublings or else a contrasting line because I found it muddled my music. Most of my stuff is pretty streamlined as a result. I'm still working on making it more dynamic but I gave up struggling to be like Williams a long time ago. Now Alex North is another case altogether....

thanks for your post. It was very informative.

[David Coscina 3]

I won't even address the Williams comparisons, beyond saying it's silly and unneccesary, but I agree that Giacchino isn't just the best young composer out there, he's a serious breath of fresh air in a pretty putrid swamp.

Most sensible post in the entire thread.

And bad form, Joe.

much like your moderation lately.

And fiery angel, you're not Gump, I know forrest Gump and you're not him.

you're a really nice human being

EDIT- you realize if Marc's moderation was up to your standards, he would have banned you long ago. Be thankful he's an open-minded and lenient mod.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

You really need to calm down Joe. And please stop swearing in your posts. Music is nothing to get hot over.

[Hellgi 0]

I whole-heartedly agree. Ever notice the lack of rubato in MIDI composers' cues compared to Williams or even Horner? Working on a full score with pencil in hand (or else on Finale, Sibelius or even NOtion) allows more flexibility and freedom of expression. But even with those programs, I feel like I'm typing with boxing gloves on sometimes. In the end, it's far easier for me to write down a complex rhythmic figure or passage than try to figure out Finale or whatever.

Agreed. I would actually be interested in figuring out if computers *really* do save you that much time. If you think about how much time it takes to master them, how much time it takes to troubleshoot them, and how much time you waste waiting for cues to load, waiting for cues to render, waiting to layback your pre-records, and waiting for DP or Logic to restart when they crash (not including the remote possibility of losing your work if you didn't save in the last 5 minutes), I wonder if you really save that much time with computers.

Sadly, I'm smacked down (even on music forums!) with the disclaimer that I'm elitist. I guess you are too so I'm in good company!

I would also say this is an elitist goal, but that doesn't mean it's less noble... Personally, I would rather write bad music doing it the right way, than write bad music doing it the wrong way Plus, ultimately I believe I'll learn more by doing so.

I argued with an engineer in Toronto who said Williams used SMPTE and synths. I said "dude, he uses pencil, paper and piano". The guy wouldn't believe me.

Ah ah! Some people really don't know what they're talking about

I agree. I tried scoring a Quicktime video to picture using DP. I found it too distracting. And my writing was idiomatic too. Very knee-jerk reaction. I ascribe this to the fact that our primary sense is our vision and that will dominate when it's the primary receiver of stimuli. As a composer, it's important to rid one's self of these visual distractions like you say to write better music. This is why Williams' music AWAY from picture is so enjoyable. It is its own musical entity.

Of course that doesn't mean a good composer who knows his sequencer very well can't write good music with it. But to me, as you said, there will always bit some kind of limit if you just work instinctively and don't "think" about what you are doing.

The thing with JW though is that there's a difference for him between what's enjoyable only in the picture, and what is "away" from the picture. That's why some cues don't make it to the final CD (not saying it's right, just saying that's why he does it). Doesn't make the music less good, it's just like pure choreographic music in Stravinsky's ballets that didn't make it in the final orchestral suite.

Well, it sounds like you are certainly more entrenched in the Hollywood system so I will defer to you on this. My sense is that most composers, even schooled ones, use technology because of the insane schedules they are handed to deliver 80 minutes of fully orchestral music.

The crazy 2-week deadline to write a 90-minute score existed way before sequencers were invented...

Yeah, I am too. But I use sequencers almost like a sculptor. Many many times have I removed lines or doublings or else a contrasting line because I found it muddled my music. Most of my stuff is pretty streamlined as a result. I'm still working on making it more dynamic but I gave up struggling to be like Williams a long time ago. Now Alex North is another case altogether....

I'm trying to slowly give up on sequencers to write music. It's very hard because I'm so used to use them as an help for my own shortcomings. It's tough realizing you don't know garbage and that you need a visual as well as audio reference to know if you're on the right direction or not!

Hellgi

[John Crichton 4]

But enough already, I'm ranting...

Keep ranting, buddy. It's facinating.

No JW soundtrack will come out without JW's final approval. Besides the actual tracks, he also chooses the track order (yes, he's the fully responsible for putting twice the same piece of music in the same soundtrack). I would be surprised that he doesn't have the final say on the the booklet itself.

Now that's interesting, I was always of the opinion that Williams had very little to do with the actual CD releases, that he delegated that to someone else. Does this mean, for instance (and I'm opening a can of worms big enough to catch every fish in Lake Michigan here) he gave a final green light on the Phantom Menace "Ultimate Edition" knowing what the final product would be like?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I won't even address the Williams comparisons, beyond saying it's silly and unneccesary, but I agree that Giacchino isn't just the best young composer out there, he's a serious breath of fresh air in a pretty putrid swamp.

Most sensible post in the entire thread.

And bad form, Joe.

much like your moderation lately.

And fiery angel, you're not Gump, I know forrest Gump and you're not him.

you're a really nice human being

EDIT- you realize if Marc's moderation was up to your standards, he would have banned you long ago. Be thankful he's an open-minded and lenient mod.

so you're agreeing with me on something, I said nothing in this thread that would be worthy of a ban, I did make a joke at your expense, but when they are handed on a silver platter the way you did, one must take advantage.

Marc and I have had our run-ins as has everyone else, yet Im still here.

[Hlao-roo 389]

But enough already, I'm ranting...

Keep ranting, buddy. It's facinating.

No JW soundtrack will come out without JW's final approval. Besides the actual tracks, he also chooses the track order (yes, he's the fully responsible for putting twice the same piece of music in the same soundtrack). I would be surprised that he doesn't have the final say on the the booklet itself.

Now that's interesting, I was always of the opinion that Williams had very little to do with the actual CD releases, that he delegated that to someone else. Does this mean, for instance (and I'm opening a can of worms big enough to catch every fish in Lake Michigan here) he gave a final green light on the Phantom Menace "Ultimate Edition" knowing what the final product would be like?

That's actually an intriguing point, especially given that I once speculated that Williams bore only ultimate and therefore peripheral responsibility for the contents of the "Ultimate Edition" release. If Williams is as much of a control freak as Hellgi describes, then one wonders how deeply Williams was involved with the release and why he would want his work so shabbily represented.

[Trent B 337]

I dunno why a lot of people have such an obsession about Giacchino. Ya I'm sure his music is good, but he's NOT going to be the next John Williams is, NO one will be. Just as Beltrami won't be the next Jerry Goldsmith. They are just composers who write different style of music. One isn't going to be better than the other. They are what they are. This whole thread is stupid.

Edit: It's not surprising to see some of you head butting with Joe again... face it people if you don't want Joe to make the posts he does, then don't post stupid threads like this. Not that I'm saying he can't say what he wants because everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Hellgi 0]

Now that's interesting, I was always of the opinion that Williams had very little to do with the actual CD releases, that he delegated that to someone else. Does this mean, for instance (and I'm opening a can of worms big enough to catch every fish in Lake Michigan here) he gave a final green light on the Phantom Menace "Ultimate Edition" knowing what the final product would be like?

That's actually an intriguing point, especially given that I once speculated that Williams bore only ultimate and therefore peripheral responsibility for the contents of the "Ultimate Edition" release. If Williams is as much of a control freak as Hellgi describes, then one wonders how deeply Williams was involved with the release and why he would want his work so shabbily represented.

I thought this had been cleared up by now?

Williams didn't care at all for the Ultimate Edition release. Sony released it under fans' pressure. Of course they asked Williams about it but he thought that the original CD was enough and that releasing the rest didn't make any sense.

As you may have noted, Williams's soundtracks do not usually have a lot of tracks, and those tracks are on average rather "longish", in the 1'30" or longer. Compare it for example to Tom Newman's soundtracks, with their 25+, 50- second tracks (I'm generalizing to give an idea).

TPM:UE is an UFO in Williams' discography. Think about it: the packaging is very different; the CD's tracks are chronological order (very rare for williams); it contains music cut specifically for the picture (included the musically-horrendous rendition of Duel of the Fates at the end), and many very, very short cues (14" seconds for the shortest?).

This release was utterly non-Williams. He didn't care for it and - as far as I know - basically gave Sony the greenlight on anything they would want to do. He's just not a fan of complete scores on CD.

Hellgi

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Hellgi, could it be that Sony did what they did with very little imput from JW? TPMUE feels like a city of prague release,

[Trent B 337]

BTW as far as the UE of TPM I was told that Williams didn't really endorse the way how it was edited and he felt betrayed on that CD release. I'm sure if he had it his way he would have made sure it got the complete intended release.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

This release was utterly non-Williams. He didn't care for it and - as far as I know - basically gave Sony the greenlight on anything they would want to do. He's just not a fan of complete scores on CD.

D'you think this might be why we don't have complete Star Wars/Indy yet? That he just doesn't think that they need releasing complete?

If he really feels this way, he's seriously out of touch with his fans.

[Hellgi 0]

I completely, 100% think so. Although there are also rights issue in the balance.

I also completely, 100% think that he's out of touch with his fans because he doesn't really care that much. He's just too busy on other, much more important things. I mean, I would love him to take a month off to oversee a complete release of Indiana Jones, but I'd rather have him write or take some time off in Hawaii.

To be honest, I really wonder how something like TPM:UE ever came out. I mean, it wasn't like the Special Edition for the original trilogy, where there was a specific reason to do so. Plus I don't think Sony made a lot of money on that release. Or maybe they think they would. I can totally see someone from Sony going to John Williams and arguing about how great it would be to have an expanded release, especially considering how little amount of work it would require (imagine, you can just get the stereo tracks straight from the Avid! No editing required!). I would imagine they insisted so much that JW thought, heck, why not, if that's what they want, do it. And then it was done so cheaply that he was "annoyed" and they never did it again (and probably never will!).

Hellgi

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Very interesting thread everyone, it is making for a good read.

I think people are just worried for the day that JW is no longer with us. Its not necessarily about being as good as Williams, its more about filling the eventual void of no more Williams scores.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Now that's interesting, I was always of the opinion that Williams had very little to do with the actual CD releases, that he delegated that to someone else. Does this mean, for instance (and I'm opening a can of worms big enough to catch every fish in Lake Michigan here) he gave a final green light on the Phantom Menace "Ultimate Edition" knowing what the final product would be like?

That's actually an intriguing point, especially given that I once speculated that Williams bore only ultimate and therefore peripheral responsibility for the contents of the "Ultimate Edition" release. If Williams is as much of a control freak as Hellgi describes, then one wonders how deeply Williams was involved with the release and why he would want his work so shabbily represented.

I thought this had been cleared up by now?

Williams didn't care at all for the Ultimate Edition release. Sony released it under fans' pressure. Of course they asked Williams about it but he thought that the original CD was enough and that releasing the rest didn't make any sense.

As you may have noted, Williams's soundtracks do not usually have a lot of tracks, and those tracks are on average rather "longish", in the 1'30" or longer. Compare it for example to Tom Newman's soundtracks, with their 25+, 50- second tracks (I'm generalizing to give an idea).

TPM:UE is an UFO in Williams' discography. Think about it: the packaging is very different; the CD's tracks are chronological order (very rare for williams); it contains music cut specifically for the picture (included the musically-horrendous rendition of Duel of the Fates at the end), and many very, very short cues (14" seconds for the shortest?).

This release was utterly non-Williams. He didn't care for it and - as far as I know - basically gave Sony the greenlight on anything they would want to do. He's just not a fan of complete scores on CD.

Hellgi

OK, then it was as I'd thought originally. Thanks for clearing it up, Hellgi!

[Red 75]

I won't even address the Williams comparisons, beyond saying it's silly and unneccesary, but I agree that Giacchino isn't just the best young composer out there, he's a serious breath of fresh air in a pretty putrid swamp.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I hear quite some similarities between The Lost World and the first Medal of Honor, but those similarities do not sound similar to things I've heard from John Williams. I always assumed that must be some sort of Michael Giacchino computer game style.

[King Mark 3,631]

So this means we can kiss complete SW Prequel,Harry Potter and Indy scores goodbye forever?Because JW doesn't want to?

K.M.

[John Crichton 4]

Well we still got the complete SW OTs, Superman, and several others despite this so on balance it really doesn't change anything IMO. Like Hellgi said there are probably other issues holding those up: cost to produce and market, reuse fees, etc.

[David Coscina 3]

I won't even address the Williams comparisons, beyond saying it's silly and unneccesary, but I agree that Giacchino isn't just the best young composer out there, he's a serious breath of fresh air in a pretty putrid swamp.

Most sensible post in the entire thread.

And bad form, Joe.

much like your moderation lately.

And fiery angel, you're not Gump, I know forrest Gump and you're not him.

you're a really nice human being

EDIT- you realize if Marc's moderation was up to your standards, he would have banned you long ago. Be thankful he's an open-minded and lenient mod.

so you're agreeing with me on something, I said nothing in this thread that would be worthy of a ban, I did make a joke at your expense, but when they are handed on a silver platter the way you did, one must take advantage.

Marc and I have had our run-ins as has everyone else, yet Im still here.

Fair enough. You're a passionate JW fan which is a good thing.

[David Coscina 3]

Hellgi, could it be that Sony did what they did with very little imput from JW? TPMUE feels like a city of prague release,

It does not even have Anakin's Theme and Dual of the Fates as far as I can remember, meaning the JW fan must have OST and this UE. Dumb!

[Ollie 1,059]

So this means we can kiss complete SW Prequel,Harry Potter and Indy scores goodbye forever?Because JW doesn't want to?

K.M.

After the fiasco with the TPM:UE I'm not holding my breath on the prequels anytime soon. Just because Williams isn't interested doesn't mean it can't happen. We wouldn't have E.T., Jaws, Superman, CE3K or the RCA special editions if that were the case.

I do know one release that Williams has said no to was the Sugarland Express. And that came from Doug Fake at Intrada.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

So accoridng to Hellgi, John doesn't care what we think....

so were incidental, how rude.

(in my best Anthony Daniels)

[Koray Savas 2,251]

EDIT- you realize if Marc's moderation was up to your standards, he would have banned you long ago. Be thankful he's an open-minded and lenient mod.

Agreed.

[Hellgi 0]

Well we still got the complete SW OTs, Superman, and several others despite this so on balance it really doesn't change anything IMO. Like Hellgi said there are probably other issues holding those up: cost to produce and market, reuse fees, etc.

Yes, anyone can produce a soundtrack, the problem is securing the right to do so from the publisher (usually the studio owns the publishing rights). If you want to re-issue a soundtrack for Raiders, for example, you need to get Paramount (or their publisher)'s permission.

Turns out that for most recent scores, they don't allow it because they want to make sure they have the possibility to do it at a more "convenient" time if needed (ie. cross-marketing crap). Reuse, producing and marketing fees are a "financial" issue which prevents small labels from doing it themselves. But that doesn't prevent another, bigger, label from doing it.

One very annoying trend (which is actually not as bad as it used to be in the 90's) are the "song" soundtracks, where the score only shows up in one or two tracks. Disney for example owns the publishing rights for many of William Ross' scores and he can't release a score-only CD for those scores until Disney agrees to it (even if Bill or someone else took charge of producing and marketing the CD).

So accoridng to Hellgi, John doesn't care what we think....

so were incidental, how rude.

(in my best Anthony Daniels)

I think he cares, but not that much. There are more important things in his life.

Plus, John Williams is who he is... if he thinks "complete score CDs" are useless, nobody will be able to change his mind about it. Or at least will it be *pretty* hard.

But you gotta love that in John, because if for all the things he does right, I have to accept the fact that he himself will never produce complete scores CDs, well... I think it's a pretty good deal.

Hellgi

[David Coscina 3]

So accoridng to Hellgi, John doesn't care what we think....

so were incidental, how rude.

(in my best Anthony Daniels)

It's really hard to say what Williams thinks about the whole fame thing. My sense is that he's just trying to grow as a composer and "do better" as he continues to declare in interviews. The artistic mind is one that is a little introverted and introspective since the process of creating is, with most arts, a singular thing. It's not as if he purposefully snubs fans. I'm sure he's elated that there are so many people who enjoy his work past the barriers of the films they are written for.

I'll see if I can ask him what he thinks of his fans when he's up in Detroit in April.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

really what he thinks about us is incidental, we just want the music.

Its not like there is a personal friendship going on.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

Not quite - what someone thinks about the wishes of their fans affects what they choose to release, I think that's pretty evident.

[Ollie 1,059]

Not to Jerry Goldsmith.

[King Mark 3,631]

I do know one release that Williams has said no to was the Sugarland Express. And that came from Doug Fake at Intrada.

In this case i'd agree with JW.

But he should be able to recognise his 6 Star Wars scores as an important musical saga that needs a complete release.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I refuse to believe this after the travesty that is "roar."

Wow you're really hung up about that cue.

I despise "Banning Back Home" but you don't see me avoiding all of Williams' scores.

You really need to listen to more of his stuff.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

I despise "Banning Back Home" but you don't see me avoiding all of Williams' scores.

You really need to listen to more of his stuff.

Exactly, its easy to look at a full body of work. Gia is too early in his career to write him off like that.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I'll see if I can ask him what he thinks of his fans when he's up in Detroit in April.

Ah, you'll be there too! Where are you coming from (somewhere South, I assume)?

[AI 0]

He might very well be, but I personally will do my damndest to make sure that he is not.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Bill told me once this story: One day during the recording, Bill went in the booth to listen to some of the stuff they had recorded. For some reason, Bill didn't like the sound of it. Didn't sound like JW's recordings. He asked if it was normal to the mixers / engineers and they all said, "yes, of course, it's what John wants!". Bill was not convinced and asked them again, and they all (basically said), "don't worry about it, it's fine, we've been working with John, we know what he'll like". So they left it at that. A few days later, Bill gets a call from John who was "annoyed" (ie, pissed) at the sound quality and surprised that it didn't sound like his other scores. Bill explained that he agreed but that he got told that it was supposed to be that way. Well, JW had the mixers re-mixing all the cues.

Nice story. Thanks for sharing it, Hellgi! I can only imagine the scene:

Bill Ross' phone rings.

BR: What thy bidding, my maestro?

JW: There's a great disturbance in the mix of these tracks...

BR: How that is possible?

JW: Search your feelings, Apprentice Ross... you will know it to be true...

BR: They're just engineers... They can do better than this...

JW: The Music Force is strong with them.

BR: Maybe we can make them remix all the cues.

JW: Yes... yes. That would be a great asset. Can it be done?

BR: They'll do it as you wish or they'll die, my maestro.

Jokes aside, I believe JW is always very adamant about how his scores sound in the final mix.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'm sure Williams did a bit more to the cues than correct the mixing issue

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

NOT AGAIN!

Hellgi already said Ross sent all the cues to Williams for him to greenlight.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Hellgi, I understand your arguments about the TPM Ultimate Edition.

It leaves me wondering, though, how did Williams end up with an Album Producer credit?

[Ollie 1,059]

Probably written in his contract that he receive that credit even though he didn't have any interest.

[Hitch 57]

The senile old git.

[Hellgi 0]

Probably written in his contract that he receive that credit even though he didn't have any interest.

That's what I think too.

[Erik Woods 555]

And this whole Giacchino is the next Williams non-sense. Well, I guess we better blame Spielberg for this one because he is the one who said it after hearing Giacchino's demos for The Lost World video game score.

-Erik-

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

He is another senile old git.

[David Coscina 3]

I'll see if I can ask him what he thinks of his fans when he's up in Detroit in April.

Ah, you'll be there too! Where are you coming from (somewhere South, I assume)?

Yeah, technically. From Toronto! My dad lives in Grosse Point and I bought a ticket for him too as he's loved Williams' stuff forever. His wife, a Beethoven fanatic says all of Williams' music sounds the same. Um, yeah, not so much.

... this whole Giacchino is the next Williams non-sense. Well, I guess we better blame Spielberg for this one because he is the one who said it after hearing Giacchino's demos for The Lost World video game score.

Sorry Erik, I didn't mean to insinuate that Giacchino is simply a Williams copier. I just meant that I firmly believe if he remains on his current course that he'll be as celebrated as Williams with respect to stature in the film score community. It may sound like back-peddling to some but that's honestly all I inferred

He might very well be, but I personally will do my damndest to make sure that he is not.

say what???

[Erik Woods 555]

Sorry Erik, I didn't mean to insinuate that Giacchino is simply a Williams copier. I just meant that I firmly believe if he remains on his current course that he'll be as celebrated as Williams with respect to stature in the film score community. It may sound like back-peddling to some but that's honestly all I inferred

No need to be sorry. It's just a topic that has be brought up a millions times with the same people saying the same thing over and over again.

Anyway, I too think that Giacchino has the talent to be considered one of Hollywood's greatest film composers. He does share a similar style to Williams' which is undeniable... Michael will even admit to that... but he is also starting to branch out on his own create new sounds that are 100% Giacchino. I think that when Williams' is gone, Giacchino will be one of a very select few of younger composers who will continue to bring that Williamesque sensibility to film scoring in age dominated by generic MV/Remote Control inspired junk!

-Erik-

[Hellgi 0]

-- EDITED --

[Erik Woods 555]

--EDITED--

[David Coscina 3]

SKetches can mean writing to an 8 stave reduced score- or even 4 stave with tons of notes. I don't think it implies that Giacchino is bereft of writing things out at all.

I just re-watched the LOST video podcast and was intently listening to some of the cues the orchestra was working on. This guy is the real deal regardless of how he inputs the notes.

Hellgi, you must agree that if one enters notes in Finale or Sibelius or even the notation editor in DP in step time it's analogous to writing in a more traditional way. It's that frozen time frame that allows composers to be more flexible with their tempi and orchestration. the realtime "plunking away while the sequencer metronome chugs away" is what I think you were implying is the problem with most Hollywood composers that use MIDI, right? And I do agree with that. although I composed something a few years ago that had a really nice ritard toward the climax of the piece that sounded very organic and natural so I think it's more the background of the person using these programs rather than the technology itself.

I find Giacchino's LOST very lyrical and organic. It's hard to believe that it was written by realtime improvisation, especially the pentultimate track of Season 1 where the raft departs. The kind of counter-melody with its adherence to proper counterpoint reflects a more traditional way of composing.