JW's writing style has changed how over the years?

[Josh500 1,615]

In 1989, he scored Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, the last Indy movie for almost two decades.

Now, in those two decades, how has JW's writing style changed? Has it gotten better or worse? Or is it just ANOTHER style, period? Now, try to give your opinons based on reasonable comparisons. Meaning, don't compare, for example, Raiders of the Lost Ark with Munich and then say, he was better in the eighties! That would be stupid. You have to compare the Original Star Wars Trilogy with the Prequel Trilogy (again, keeping in mind that the original trilogy movies were a lot better than the prequels), Jaws with Jurassic Park, maybe E.T. or The Witches of Eastwick with Harry Potter (?) etc...

For the record, I voted for the 1. option. John Williams was always a phenomenal composer, of course, but over the years he's gotten even better. Listen to his compositions today (certain pieces from Harry Potter and Star Wars prequels, as well as Schindler's List and Memoirs and A.I.), and you'll see that he writes pieces that are mind-blowingly well-crafted. It seems to me that he gets better every year, and I'm talking generally here. That doesn't mean of course that each new score is better than the previous ones. You have to consider also that not every movie JW scores is a good movie . . . some are very bad (like The Patriot and The Terminal), so JW has to make the best of them. Still, he manages to surprise the audience (and himself, I'm sure) time after time with fresh and delightful musical ideas he couldn't have come up with at the beginning of his career.

[Neimoidian 14]

I go for the 3rd option. His style has changed, that's for sure, whether for better of for worse it's in fact disputable and mostly depends on what particular listener likes and what type of movie John has scored. When it comes to serious scores to serious, sometimes ambitious movies, I say his style has really refined. It's 90s and 00s when we got such outstanding scores like Schindler's List, Angela's Asches, Seven Years in Tibet, SPR or MoaG and couple more.

When it comes to adventure/action movies his style has also changed a bit, though it happend alongside the general change in filmmaking process and - perhaps - certain decrease in the quality of the movies themselves (vide last two Star Wars episodes). Very fast and tight editing prevents composer from writing sweeping action cues, directors easily manage to tamper with the recorded material, which wasn't so common before, also the recording techinque itself has changed (Murphy's recordings are hit and miss, which also influences the way we perceive the music).

John is still capable of writing interesting melodies, though he not always wants to, nor needs to (vide WotW). Nor is inspired enough. His orchestrations are preety much similar to what he used to apply in the past, though he tends to adjust it depending of the movie subject. However in my book his brooding writing has changed for worse - when we compare one from - let's say RotJ to RotS we can clearly see the difference.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Good topic, Josh. We'll see how many people'll take the time to weigh in and elaborate as as you've prodded us to in the poll choices. For now, I'm inclined to echo much of what Nemoidian has written, although I'd like to stand back for a moment and make a couple of "objective" (OK, not really) observations:

1. He is not alone in his opinion about Williams's "brooding music": I know many here have registered their dissatisfaction with the onerous amount of "boring underscore" in the Star Wars prequels. I don't hear that gripe about the original trilogy's expanded scores.

2. Nemoidian, Adam S., and others over the years have argued that movies have changed significantly over the years -- a factor that should not be easily dismissed in evaluating the change in Williams's style in action/adventure mode. Perhaps some perspective can be gained by examining how other composers have handled the changes in films and filmmaking process. Much have been said about the way Goldsmith "streamlined" his sound, particularly after Total Recall. To what extent that was a "pure artistic decision" (doesn't really exist, I know) versus a kind of kowtow to practicality, we don't know. But I think it's interesting to note that in many cases, his action material became more overtly melodic, and all in all, managed to remain relatively clean, cohesive, and uncluttered. Then again, less hardcore Goldsmith fans have not necessarily reacted favorably to these changes.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'm seeing more and more wasted notes if you understand what I mean, with his recent scores.

Listen to something like Star Wars or hell even Monsignor. Not a single note in there is there for the sake of being there. Everything is there for a reason.

Now listen to Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, or Munich, or The Terminal, or even Sorcerer's Stone, and you find a surprising proportion of meaningless music that neither lifts or (generally) detracts from the scene.

[pi 0]

Definatley has changed. Has become more about orchestration/harmony less about themes

[tpigeon 3]

Interesting observations, Alan. I don't want to simplify, but it does seem like Goldsmith's action sound became much more direct in the 90's. This would be the polar opposite of Williams, who has layered his action pieces with thick orchestration rather than streamlining melodies.

And great point about movies themselves changing. "The blockbuster" has changed enormously, and not just from an effects standpoint. Now, there is more editing, shorter shots, more close-ups, shorter scenes, and overall more activity. By comparison, KOTCS will probably contrast with these aesthetics very heavily. Spielberg has said outright that he only cut when he needed to during the film's action sequences. I wonder how that will impact Williams' writing, if it all.

Ted

[Hlao-roo 389]

Now, there is more editing, shorter shots, more close-ups, shorter scenes, and overall more activity. By comparison, KOTCS will probably contrast with these aesthetics very heavily. Spielberg has said outright that he only cut when he needed to during the film's action sequences. I wonder how that will impact Williams' writing, if it all.

That's a good point. If Kingdom of the Crystal Skull turns out as advertised, then that gives us a good opportunity to see the extent to which the "new cinema" (not actual term, but you know what I mean) influences Williams's approach to action sequences. Of course, any clarity on this subject might be muddied if Williams is consciously trying to mimic any of his styles from the '80s, as Spielberg for his part is doing. Most of us have assumed that Williams isn't (or can't) -- and the early review from the French magazine seems to support this notion -- but I guess we'll sort of find out.

[tpigeon 3]

I'm seeing more and more wasted notes if you understand what I mean, with his recent scores.

Listen to something like Star Wars or hell even Monsignor. Not a single note in there is there for the sake of being there. Everything is there for a reason.

Now listen to Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, or Munich, or The Terminal, or even Sorcerer's Stone, and you find a surprising proportion of meaningless music that neither lifts or (generally) detracts from the scene.

Yes, but sometimes this more complex style results in a brilliant synthesis of thematic development and orchestrational harmony, e.g. "The Tide Turns," from The Phantom Menace, one of my very favorite Williams action cues, or "Rescuing Sarah" (complete). I'm dating myself here, but I think many forum members would place these films/cues in the "new" Williams style.

If Williams' style has indeed changed so drastically, then I'll be the first to admit that I think "contemporary" Williams is equally good as, if not better than "classic" Williams. His music now is much more subtle, even sublime. I don't think he could write something as brilliant as "The Search For the Blue Fairy" (film version) in the old days.

Still though, I think to draw these distinctions about his different stylistic periods says more about the person listening to the music than it does about Williams.

Ted

[Ollie 1,059]

Williams' music has changed and it's a combination of factors; movies are made differently, Williams has matured as a composer, he seems to concentrate more on dramas and Williams has also aged as a composer.

I don't care what anyone says but when you consider the amount of music he has composed and his age well it's natural for the creative forces to not be what they once were. It happens to all composers. Doesn't mean he's no longer capable of composing good music but one would expect a slight decline.

Williams also picks his films, he's not a workaholic in Hollywood like Goldsmith was. Spielberg has moved away from what made him successful and has concentrated on more dramatic and personal films. Those require a different type of score. You look at most of Williams' work since 1990 and you'll see quite a few dramatic and heavy subject matter films compared to previous years.

I think some people here get a little too sensitive when it comes to Williams. He still is a very good composer and has still cranked out some fantastic music; A.I. Harry Potter and the SS, POA, Memoirs of A Geisha, Catch Me If You Can, Angela's Ashes, TPM all come to mind.

I still love listening to Williams music. Sometimes it's for the good and sometimes it isn't.

I believe Alan gave this assessment when ROTS was released: The cue General Grievous is why I love Williams action music but General Grievous and the Droids is why I don't like Williams' modern action music.

Now that's not a 100% direct quote and if it wasn't Alan I apologize but it rings true.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I believe Alan gave this assessment when ROTS was released: The cue General Grievous is why I love Williams action music but General Grievous and the Droids is why I don't like Williams' modern action music.

Now that's not a 100% direct quote and if it wasn't Alan I apologize but it rings true.

My opinions are constantly in flux, sometimes shifting wildly (as in the case of Saving Private Ryan), so its hard for me to recall what I did or didn't say upon the release of the last prequel score. I don't remember embracing "General Grievous" so outright, but I believe that much of the cue did (and still does) resonate with me. On the other hand, I did definitely say that "Grievous and the Droids" was a mess and emblematic of the obstacles Williams tends to face in bringing any semblance of narrative cohesiveness to an action cue without an organizing theme(s) of some sort. On this note, however, I was a bit chastened when -- I believe it was a temporarily resurfaced Frank Lehman -- pointed out that Williams did not eschew a motivic approach to this cue. He was right; I hadn't listened carefully enough. That said, the avalanche of generic action filler serves to dampen my enthusiasm for the fact that Williams had even bothered to lay his seemingly half-hearted motivic foundation for the cue.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

If Williams has made indy IV in the same vein as the 80's scores, i will say that the change in style has been his decision and not age.

[publicist 4,643]

Drama scores by Williams are better than ever nowadays, action music has some inflexes of creativity but most of the time, this stuff comes off as pretty stale, thematic content could be more varied, but on the whole, it's still darn good.

Regarding the question of Goldsmiths' approach to action music: he reportedly told Bruce Broughton in the mid-90s that film people actually reacted allergic to his more complicated stuff. First of all, he was considered too upfront and was often ordered to tone down his music so often that he just adjusted accordingly, secondly, he got rejected whole or partly from films and he was just too much the workaholic to risk his reputation being harmed by too many professional blunders.

[Toontje 0]

Definatley has changed. Has become more about orchestration/harmony less about themes

So true! The themes for rots are definitly hummable but just not as good thematic wise than let's say rots. If you compare The forest Battle III from rotj to The Battle over Coruscant from rots you can hear that the rotj track is about the themes which go on the foreground brilliant. In the track from rots you can hear more underscore and more fluent orchestration/harmony. The question is now what is more important. Personally I chose option 3. But still I hope that KotCS has more themes in it that I can hum along with.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

this poll should be redone in about 3 weeks, so that people will have had time to digest IJKOTCS, I suspect the results might change

[Neimoidian 14]

If Williams has made indy IV in the same vein as the 80's scores, i will say that the change in style has been his decision and not age.

Exactly.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no it will be because Steven Spielberg asked him too, or told him to, but I can't imagine Steven ever having to tell John something, if he asks, then thats what John will give him, and despite what some read out of the french review (I didn't interpret it that way myself but my french is rusty, and canadian based too) I don't think its clear exactly what direction John went with the score, each of us will have to make that decision ourselves.

[Ollie 1,059]

this poll should be redone in about 3 weeks, so that people will have had time to digest IJKOTCS, I suspect the results might change

I have good idea of how most members are goint to react.

I could probably type each individuals reaction.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Do it, send it to marc, and then when all of we have put our opinion after hearing the score, marc will post your predicction

It could be fun

[indy4 155]

I voted option 3.

There are many modern masterpiece that are as good, if not better, than JW's "Golden Era" of the 80s. He has not lost any of his touch.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I voted option 3.

There are many modern masterpiece that are as good, if not better, than JW's "Golden Era" of the 80s. He has not lost any of his touch.

come on Indy4 that crazy talk. Nothing in the 00's is as good as most works from 75 to 84.

Jaws, Star Wars, CE3K, Jaws2, Fury,Superman, ESB, ROTLA, ET, ROTJ, TOD>AI, SS, AOTC, COS, CMIYC, MR, POA, Te, ROTS, WOTW, MOAG, Mu,

[Neimoidian 14]

I voted option 3.

There are many modern masterpiece that are as good, if not better, than JW's "Golden Era" of the 80s. He has not lost any of his touch.

come on Indy4 that crazy talk. Nothing in the 00's is as good as most works from

Jaws, Star Wars, CE3K, Jaws2, Fury,Superman, ESB, ROTLA, ET, ROTJ, TOD>AI, SS, AOTC, COS, CMIYC, MR, POA, Te, ROTS, WOTW, MOAG, Mu,

None denies Williams' creative powers (let's name them this way) were at their peaks in the decade 75 to 84, when he created most of his masterpieces. On the other hand, between 74 and 85 John also did The Eiger Sanction, Heartbeeps, Missouri Breaks, Family Plot, Black Sunday, 1941, Dracula and The River, and any of them was masterpiece of THAT kind, not to mention that some of them doesn't even stand up to scores he wrote in 00s.

[Josh500 1,615]

I voted option 3.

There are many modern masterpiece that are as good, if not better, than JW's "Golden Era" of the 80s. He has not lost any of his touch.

come on Indy4 that crazy talk. Nothing in the 00's is as good as most works from

Jaws, Star Wars, CE3K, Jaws2, Fury,Superman, ESB, ROTLA, ET, ROTJ, TOD>AI, SS, AOTC, COS, CMIYC, MR, POA, Te, ROTS, WOTW, MOAG, Mu,

None denies Williams' creative powers (let's name them this way) were at their peaks in the decade 75 to 84, when he created most of his masterpieces. On the other hand, between 74 and 85 John also did The Eiger Sanction, Heartbeeps, Missouri Breaks, Family Plot, Black Sunday, 1941, Dracula and The River, and any of them was masterpiece of THAT kind, not to mention that some of them doesn't even stand up to scores he wrote in 00s.

I think he's reached his peak NOW!!!

Recently he's scored Harry Potter, Star Wars, Memoirs, A.I., and now Indiana Jones!

[robthehand 3]

I think he's reached his peak NOW!!!

Recently he's scored Harry Potter, Star Wars, Memoirs, A.I., and now Indiana Jones!

A good bunch, no doubt (though we don't know about Indiana Jones yet, obviously), but I don't think that eight years can really compare to the eight years that gave us Black Sunday, Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Fury, Jaws 2, Superman, Dracula, 1941, The Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Heartbeeps, E.T., Monsignor, Return of the Jedi, The River and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Better scores, and more of them.

Don't get me wrong, I think Williams's current output is still very impressive, but his "peak" was in the '70s and '80s, IMO at least.

[Josh500 1,615]

I think he's reached his peak NOW!!!

Recently he's scored Harry Potter, Star Wars, Memoirs, A.I., and now Indiana Jones!

A good bunch, no doubt (though we don't know about Indiana Jones yet, obviously), but I don't think that eight years can really compare to the eight years that gave us Black Sunday, Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Fury, Jaws 2, Superman, Dracula, 1941, The Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Heartbeeps, E.T., Monsignor, Return of the Jedi, The River and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Better scores, and more of them.

Don't get me wrong, I think Williams's current output is still very impressive, but his "peak" was in the '70s and '80s, IMO at least.

I think it's just a matter of taste. Of the scores you mentioned I consider Star Wars, Close Encounters, The Fury, Jaws 2, Superman, ESB, RotLA, E.T. and RotJ to be masterpieces.

These days, I consider PS, TPM, CoS, AotC, PoA, RotS, MoaG, A.I., and (in all probability) Indiana Jones to be masterpieces.

He's still at the very top, you have to give JW that.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

it helped that many of those films were just better than the current films too. I often forget about the River, which is one of the most played John Williams scores that few even realize. It is often used in sporting events and the likes.

[Quintus 5,399]

I can't really comment in this probably very interesting thread since I've not really analysed anything by JW since The Phantom Menace. I seem to be eternally stuck in in his glory years, which I stretch right up to that point in '99, just. I don't think that is such a bad thing, not to mention the fact it could be subject to change, come the end of this month.

But yeah, his music has definitely changed and from a purely artistic pov, I'd say most certainly for the better.

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

Interesting observations, Alan. I don't want to simplify, but it does seem like Goldsmith's action sound became much more direct in the 90's. This would be the polar opposite of Williams, who has layered his action pieces with thick orchestration rather than streamlining melodies.

Very true.

[MSM 126]

We have discussed this over and over again.

I think there are the following three main style periods:

1) 1969-1986

2) 1987-1995

3) 1996-

I have given several arguments in earlier threads on this.

[Neimoidian 14]

We have discussed this over and over again.

I think there are the following three main style periods:

1) 1969-1986

2) 1987-1995

3) 1996-

I have given several arguments in earlier threads on this.

Perhaps this will be true:

1) 1969-1986 + 2008

2) 1987-1995

3) 1996-

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Lots of good observations in this thread, particularly with regards to the changing style and techniques of filmmaking and thus scoring. It's a difficult choice for me; many of my favorites are in the later period (Hook, Home Alone, Far and Away, Harry Potter, etc.), but it's impossible to discount the consistency with which Williams composed so many amazing scores in the earlier period. It's probably safe to say that I enjoy his earlier style more, I suppose. Not that that necessarily makes it better...I'l go with option 3.

[Red 75]

The style has definitely changed, whether it be from Williams' age or a conscious decision. I don't really feel the need to compare the two, they just represent different stages in an artist's life. I will say this though, Williams' "golden age" is called that for a reason, because overall it is the best period the composer has had. And I'm a fan of the more modern Williams ( mid 90's to 2000's).

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

If Williams has made indy IV in the same vein as the 80's scores, i will say that the change in style has been his decision and not age.

Exactly.

I don't think it's a decision or "age". What does "age" mean anyway? He's going senile so forgets to write music the way he used to?

It's called progression. Any artist is on a continually developing arc, and age has nothing to do with it. Example (and its just off the top of my head, it's not like I'm comparing the two): read Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. Then read Deathly Hallows. There's a definite change in writing style, and it's not just due to the darker subject matter in the latter. Yes, Rowling got older, but the change wasn't from that, it was from the experience, from the criticism, from reading and exploring more literature. The same can be applied to Williams.

Why do you think John Barry didn't do The Incredibles? Because he doesn't write like that anymore.

[Hitch 57]

His writing style has gone downhill since VALLEY OF THE DOLLS after he stopped using his left hand

[Koray Savas 2,251]

His writing style hasn't changed, the movies have changed. He's not necessarily better than he was 20 years ago, but IMO his scores sound better because the movies are better.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the movies aren't better they are worse.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Better!

[Adam S. 0]

It will be interesting to see how well Speilberg is able to emulate his earlier directing style. For some reason, I think he's going to have trouble doing it, consistently throughout the movie anyway, and, consequently, wer're going to hear a more modern-Speilberg type of score in many respects as well though I could be totally wrong. The tone in Lost World compared to Jurassic Park took a fairly dramatic change, for example, though it could be argued that was intentional on his part. But that's somewhat symbolic of his evolution in directing style for action though I realize he's trying to make a concerted effort to go back to his earlier style.

I also think JW tends to be more of a barometer of how much movies have changed than other composers. Goldsmith, for example, talked about going for emotional penetration in an action sequence. I don't think he tied his music as closely into the kinetic and rythmic aspects of the film as JW does, for better or worse. But there's no doubt that JW's technique has evolved over the years but I have trouble saying its any better or worse. For example, would Memoirs of a Geisha really be better had he scored it in 1980? Its hard for me to imagine. And, of course, visa versa applies as well. One thing is for certain and that is that he was scoring an unprecedented number of popular, successful films during the 1975-1984 period and its hard not to conclude that that had a big impact on the results he achieved and the extent to which people are morel likely to identify with that period.

- Adam

[JoeinAR 1,949]

worse Koray, and Josh, you think AOTC is a masterpiece, OMG.

[Trent B 337]

I voted option three. I honestly think it hasn't gotten better or worse he still is pretty good.

[Lurker 5]

I don't find his new music as interesting as his older scores. I'm hoping KOCS is good, but I'm not expecting it to be Raiders, TOD or even Least Crusade. It'll probably have more in common with the Star Wars prequels. But it is new Williams music so I am willing to give it a chance and I hope there are some surprises.

I also just realized that I never play any of his 2005 scores. The thought of playing any of them is unappealing.

Neil

[King Mark 3,631]

I like Williams current writing very much even if it is not quite up to the 1975-1985 standard .HPPOA,HPSS,TPM,ROTS are in my top 15 Williams scores. I only dislike the ultra bleak Minority Report. I am not as severe as other veterans and long time listeners like Joe and Neil regarding this matter.

It's the 1994-1998 scores that I like the least...and his concertos (cello,bassoon,violin,treesong...ect...)

K.M.

[Humpty Dumpty 0]

John Williams’ style, in my opinion, has improved. He has assimilated over the years an ever increasing variety of influences into his music (You can hear hints of John Adams in his latest scores and concert works), his technical control has become more fine-tuned (especially in terms of orchestration), and his musical signature has evolved into something more unique to him (He relies on fewer Straussian, Waltonian, and Korngoldian gestures). The idea that he can no longer compose in his old style because of old age is absurd; the way he writes now is much more technically sophisticated than how he used to write. Every good composer looks to reinvent themselves in different ways throughout their career so as not to fall into the trap of recycling the same musical material over and over again.

[Beowulf 4]

John Williams’ style, in my opinion, has improved. He has assimilated over the years an ever increasing variety of influences into his music (You can hear hints of John Adams in his latest scores and concert works), his technical control has become more fine-tuned (especially in terms of orchestration), and his musical signature has evolved into something more unique to him (He relies on fewer Straussian, Waltonian, and Korngoldian gestures). The idea that he can no longer compose in his old style because of old age is absurd; the way he writes now is much more technically sophisticated than how he used to write. Every good composer looks to reinvent themselves in different ways throughout their career so as not to fall into the trap of recycling the same musical material over and over again.

Well said.

Now get back on the wall!

[Wesker 0]

John Williams’ style, in my opinion, has improved. He has assimilated over the years an ever increasing variety of influences into his music (You can hear hints of John Adams in his latest scores and concert works), his technical control has become more fine-tuned (especially in terms of orchestration), and his musical signature has evolved into something more unique to him (He relies on fewer Straussian, Waltonian, and Korngoldian gestures). The idea that he can no longer compose in his old style because of old age is absurd; the way he writes now is much more technically sophisticated than how he used to write. Every good composer looks to reinvent themselves in different ways throughout their career so as not to fall into the trap of recycling the same musical material over and over again.

Haha, "Not to fall into the trap of recycling musical material over and over again".

Awww, you're going to make Horner blush with statements like that. And you know how shy he is...

[Josh500 1,615]

John Williams’ style, in my opinion, has improved. He has assimilated over the years an ever increasing variety of influences into his music (You can hear hints of John Adams in his latest scores and concert works), his technical control has become more fine-tuned (especially in terms of orchestration), and his musical signature has evolved into something more unique to him (He relies on fewer Straussian, Waltonian, and Korngoldian gestures). The idea that he can no longer compose in his old style because of old age is absurd; the way he writes now is much more technically sophisticated than how he used to write. Every good composer looks to reinvent themselves in different ways throughout their career so as not to fall into the trap of recycling the same musical material over and over again.

Amen. Thank you!