Interesting observations by FSM's Lukas Kendall

[Richard Penna 3,694]

He does indeed create wonderful listening experiences with most of his albums. But he also leaves a lot of wonderful experiences off of them.

I'll be straight here - I prefer a repository of music, from which the best bits can be selected.

Williams' method of album producing is based on the constraints of a CD, a constraint which isn't a problem nowadays.

Listening to the ten unreleased cues, all of which easily could have fit onto the same disc, especially if part of the end credits and "The Dinosaurs" hadn't been included on the album twice. They're not even different takes - just the exact same recording pressed onto the CD twice for the sake of the "experience." That's frustrating.

So many Williams scores could be fit entirely on a CD with room to spare, but he insists on doing what you just mentioned. And with Jurassic, the important unreleased stuff can't add up to more than 5-10 minutes (T-Rex chase, Grant and the kids, the 'Mining...' cue). Instead of those we get to hear the end credits twice and a concert suite.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'm not talking about Intrada or FSM because they market their releases to the collectors. Your point: Obviously, but typically some of these companies seem to wait until something happens concerning OST releases. Sony seems to want casual consumers. If they where to release the complete collection of the Prequel trilogy tomorrow, only us collectors would come running. They want casual consumers to buy too. But yes, it is a shame, but only for those who care about the odd track that was left out. Of those people, there are not many of us when compared to the market out there.

So I don't get it .They released the TPM UE to counter the bootlegs .At the same time they consider the music unprofitable to release but they have to counter "piracy" of it?

If the music has no commercial value to them WTF do they care if we acquire it by other means. Who cares if complete scores leak on the internet then? It's not like anyone is losing money.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yep. I'm very aware that a complete soundtrack can get...long. Even if all the music is great, it can be a little bit overwhelming to sit through the whole thing. But better to provide too much (all on one disc or via download) than too little, particularly if some of what you're not including is just being replaced by repeated material.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Lucasfilm should take a good look at what makes Intrada so successful.

Who cares if complete scores leak on the internet then?

They can't be bothered to set up a means of accepting money, but react like a kid when they find someone's taken the music anyway. They're too damn protective to make any money from it, and the rare times that they do, they have no idea how to do it right.

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah I know there's not much more of an explanation than "it's ours and we don't want you to have it" .

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It just seems that dorky people like us care about this music, but the people in possession of it and even its composer do not. Mr. Williams apparently prevented a release of the historic and unreleased Sugarland Express score, knowing that people WANTED it out there. Material from ROTJ is apparently lost forever. The complete scores to Hook, Harry Potter, the prequels, Family Plot, Black Sunday, E.T. and Indiana Jones will be locked in some vault on the Universal backlot and burned to a crisp the next time a dumbass construction worker accidentally sets King Kong ablaze.

[Diego 21]

That's very pessimistic, if BTTF taught us anything, is that any release is possible, give it a few more years, we'll get almost everything we want. In the meantime why not stop and smell the roses instead of complaining?? We've got a ton of great releases in the last few years, just a little over a year ago we still had to listen to the original TOD album. I'm a bit amazed how quickly we forgot about the Indy boxset and know there's no discussion about it, it's only a year old afterall and while it had issues it did give us a lot of great new music, including what was my ultimate Williams grail (TOD with Underground heroics, Trek to Pankot, Stealing the Stones, etc.)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I haven't listened to Jaws 2, but I agree that Jurassic Park is a nice listening experience. You know what else is nice, though? Listening to the ten unreleased cues, all of which easily could have fit onto the same disc, especially if part of the end credits and "The Dinosaurs" hadn't been included on the album twice. They're not even different takes - just the exact same recording pressed onto the CD twice for the sake of the "experience." That's frustrating.

Oy, the same on The Patriot. We've got "The Patriot" theme on Track 1, then "The Patriot Reprise" on Track 17, the former could have been dropped in favour of more unreleased music from the film.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, the last year or two have certainly shown some promise, Diego. Things are getting released. It's just a slow trickle, much of which consists of material that's not well-known, even among film score fans, but it's still progress. Frustrating as the idea of what the major players are doing is, all is not lost.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes, but they got clever on us Drax. They added snares and a fife bit to the end of "The Patriot Reprise" just so we'd know the album's over.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Yes, but they got clever on us Drax. They added snares and a fife bit to the end of "The Patriot Reprise" just so we'd know the album's over.

That actually makes it my preferred version. Hence I'd drop the opening track.

[TheDarkOrb 0]

I think once CDs finally cease to exit as the source of their revenue, we'll start getting longer/complete/extended releases online. Disc space will no longer be an issue.

In time.

[Datameister 2,044]

But then there'll be the inevitable wait for labels to start releasing in lossless formats. =/ Most of the time, a high-bitrate mp3 or AAC is good enough for me, but there are times when lossless is really essential.

[Trent B 337]

But then there'll be the inevitable wait for labels to start releasing in lossless formats. =/ Most of the time, a high-bitrate mp3 or AAC is good enough for me, but there are times when lossless is really essential.

Indeed, especially if you wanna burn the score on a CD-R and re-rip it to your drive at some point or even edit the material.

[Datameister 2,044]

Well, burning and re-ripping isn't an issue for me, but I certainly do a lot of editing, so that's my biggest concern. If, for example, a passage is present twice on album - once with another passage overlaid on it and once without the overlay - then I can use an inverted copy of the latter to isolate the other passage present in the former. This happens particularly with Williams releases (e.g. "The Knight Bus", "Theme from Jurassic Park" vs. "Journey to the Island", etc.), and it only works if you've got the lossless original. Compression makes it impossible for the signals to cancel out perfectly.

Speaking of which, I legally own the HPSS OST, but I think something's a little wrong with the "Christmas at Hogwarts" track. If anyone reading this happens to have a lossless copy of that track, I would soooo appreciate a PM.

[A24 4,345]

First you have to tell me why you want it.

I'd just like to see something you say backed it up with actual hard facts instead of your usual snooty commentary.

Hmm, that tone of yours. Do you have two accounts, Quint?

[Quintus 5,399]

Heh heh, pull your head out of your arse Alex, maybe it isn't just me who finds you to be rather supercilious. Did you ever consider that? Of course you didn't.

[A24 4,345]

Heh heh, pull your head out of your arse Alex, maybe it isn't just me who finds you to be rather supercilious. Did you ever consider that? Of course you didn't.

No, I think most here find me "supercilious". But just because I said Disney is disappointed about the Blu-ray sales of their older titles, Charlie gets all Quint on me? Suddenly he's showing signs of the Tourette syndrome? Usually he's able to keep his cool.

Alex

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, so anyway... about that source he asked for...

[A24 4,345]

I never lie, Quint.

[Incanus 5,715]

That's very pessimistic, if BTTF taught us anything, is that any release is possible, give it a few more years, we'll get almost everything we want. In the meantime why not stop and smell the roses instead of complaining?? We've got a ton of great releases in the last few years, just a little over a year ago we still had to listen to the original TOD album. I'm a bit amazed how quickly we forgot about the Indy boxset and know there's no discussion about it, it's only a year old afterall and while it had issues it did give us a lot of great new music, including what was my ultimate Williams grail (TOD with Underground heroics, Trek to Pankot, Stealing the Stones, etc.)

Indiana Jones Collection is a great release but still left a slightly bitter after taste and a lot of what ifs. We were waiting and hoping after all these years for complete releases of all the 3 classic scores. And when this box fell short of those expectations the defects seem to grow to unreasonable proportions compared to the positive aspects of the release. Expectations were not met to the degree we have gotten used to. This has to do with the high level of releases we have gotten used to with the specialty labels. They set a a very high standard that releases directed to a larger market simply do not fulfill because the "average Joe music listener/buyer" is not terribly or obsessively concerned of how complete the release is as long as it contains some tunes he/she knows from the film. The reasons for this release attitude are presented in this thread.

And it is of course not forbidden to criticize quite obvious faults of the Indy release, like the substituting of the Desert Chase with a horribly edited version (a producer could make a counter suggestion to the composer no matter how much JW has pressured him to have the old version on the new CD) or the strange high end noise in The Scroll/To Pankot Palace or (this for those with better ears than mine) the wrong speed or pitch of the music. Something like that just comes off as shoddy workmanship that should make the producers blush in shame. Or leaving good 25 to 30 minutes of empty space on the "More Music from Indiana Jones Films" bonus CD in the box set where more music would have fitted nicely.

The flip side of the coin with Indy set is the enormous amount of new material, brilliant, well loved and much sought after material that was presented to us. Hearing that for the first time in good sound quality outside the film and after years of DVD-rips and other less than satisfying sources, was simply a revelation and moment of pure joy for a long time fan. But we simply are such as a race that we more easily note and dwell on faults than rejoice the things we have. With film music that almighty "COMPLETE SCORE" has become the standard which every score release is compared to as we have gotten so many complete scores over the years. It just has become the normal standard which tells us something about the direction of the music business even if for the smaller specialty labels. At least there is something positive about it. But very often the COMPLETE SCORE becomes an obsessive goal in itself, not the music. We easily feel somehow betrayed if we do not get and own every second of the score as it was originally composed. But it would as you say be better if we took time and smelled the roses instead of dwelling on the negative. We should enjoy what we have got even if it does not mean we have to settle for scraps.

But I am certainly not defending the practices of big labels and "highest bidders" and how they for a quick buck put out shoddily put together releases with no love or passion for the music. But how lucky we are that there are those who actually have will and passion to release so much fine film music in the best possible way.

[Quintus 5,399]

I never lie, Quint.

See, now why didn't you just post that in the first place...

And you wonder why.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think in the majority of cases Williams has produced great albums from his own scores. He's always been quite generous concerning the quantity of the music released on official OST albums. Yes, sometimes it made me cringe that he left out some amazing cues or that he felt necessary to make some jarring edit. However, soundtrack albums are quite a strange beast in terms of product. In most cases, composers feel that they should give the listener a kind of "souvenir" from the movie, while others think it's better to reformulate all the music materials in order to produce a coherent listening experience.

Complete archival presentations are the exception of the rule, as they're produced mainly for the niche of film score collectors. It's quite known that most of composers are uncomfortable to release ALL the music written for a movie, as they feel that certain sections are NEVER meant to be heard separately from the picture. Some composers have more power than others in order to prevent the release of said complete scores, while others probably are very happy to get their music out in some form. It's also common knowledge that the artists themselves seldom are the most objective judges of their own works. That being said, I think Williams did always gave his permission to release complete presentations of his own works. I remember Nick Redman once saying that Williams was quite happy at how the 1997 SW 2-disc sets turned out.

Also, it should be pointed out that film score collectors in many cases are a very anal-retentive crowd concerning how music should be presented on disc...

[A24 4,345]

See, now why didn't you just post that in the first place...

Because of the way Charlie asked me, as if I was lying or something. And I was right, as it turned out, Charlie did have a problem.

And you wonder why.

What do you mean?

[Romão 2,274]

But very often the COMPLETE SCORE becomes an obsessive goal in itself, not the music. We easily feel somehow betrayed if we do not get and own every second of the score as it was originally composed.

This is a very interesting observation, Mikko, and it is something that occurs much more often than it should.

[Quintus 5,399]

Because of the way Charlie asked me, as if I was lying or something. And I was right, as it turned out, Charlie did have a problem.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Also, it should be pointed out that film score collectors in many cases are a very anal-retentive crowd concerning how music should be presented on disc...

Hehe, that's without question.

And of course, we don't have an automatic right to hear everything they've composed. But I will say that I think composers should be mindful that their work is being heard by millions of people in the film, and that they should at least appreciate that with the constraints of an album, there will be people who want to hear more.

Promos are a big help of course, and I'd be amazed if there was anyone putting them out who didn't expect, or at least know, that they get online pretty damn fast.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

And of course, we don't have an automatic right to hear everything they've composed.

We are willing to pay good money for it though.

[Ollie 1,059]

While anything is possible in the realm of releases, you can probably expect anything from Lucasfilm, Williams and Spielberg to receive less than desired results, much like Lukas mentioned.

There's nothing wrong with the RCA Special Editions, outside of Jedi Rocks and sound, but that's been explained. Yeah it would have been nice to have Jabba's source cues and perhaps throw in the original Ewok Celebration but the Anthology has that one. As far as the sequencing and combining of the long cues, perhaps one should direct their questions to Mike Matessino or Nick Redman. It doesn't bother me because I consider the original trilogy to be one of the pinnacles of Williams' career. I think the music is put together perfectly.

The only albums I really have issue with, as far as Williams' choices, are the original albums of 1941 and TPM.

I may be wrong but I think we are safe with Williams releases that don't involve the trio listed above and with Universal and Paramount opening up we should, hopefully, start seeing some of those scores released.

[publicist 4,643]

And of course, we don't have an automatic right to hear everything they've composed.

We are willing to pay good money for it though.

Not nearly enough, it seems.

The other internet phenomenon is that any unreleased 12-second stinger is elevated to legend-status as soon as the fanboy gets his iPhone browser post-ready after the show.

10 years before, the movie release dates in Germany were significantly later than in the states and what tension-filled life it was. Reading american messageboards made me dizzy, reading about hourlong quantities of the most brilliant musical setpieces in any film scored by an eminent composer which naturally was absent from the album. Scores like SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, JUMANJI or POWDER allegedly were full of those and i can remember watching them in near breathless state, waiting for the big moment to occur (at the very least this waiting game got me unscathed through lots of junky movies).

In retrospect, most of the albums from the 90s onwards are reasonably well-produced. Yes, there is the occasional A. I., and sometimes the score is just too much for a single CD release (PHANTOM MENACE), and sometimes a good piece is missing. But honestly, take PADME'S RUMINATIONS off the record and people start to complain how such an obvious cue could possibly be left from the album and Williams and his cohorts would be yelled at as senile jerks.

Most composers are, in fact, too generous with stuff they release, at least under purely musical considerations.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

A 7-minute suite should suffice then.

[publicist 4,643]

A 7-minute suite should suffice then.

Quite a few times, it does...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Lukas said Lucasfilm offers the rights to the highest bidder...

So we all thought that Concord records was a minor label. But they must be full of money though...

And about that release, most people thought it was going to be straight re-relases of the OST's, thankfully we were proven wrong, but now it seems an über lacking product....

[King Mark 3,631]

Seems to me we got very close not getting that 5th disk ,which would have been a disaster,

Point is we STILL have to look for bootlegged cues

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Because of the way Charlie asked me, as if I was lying or something. And I was right, as it turned out, Charlie did have a problem.

Alex, I just asked for a source. Too many people on the internet say random things to further their argument without a shred of proof to back that up. If it was you, Mark, John, or even someone like Neil who has links to the industry, I'd still ask for a source, because as interesting as you sometimes are (which I honestly mean, if sometimes it is buried in your snooty commentary (which admittedly is sometimes entertaining)), it still doesn't mean I should take every word you say as gospel.

That said, thanks for backing up.

A serious question: how does the specialist labels distribution work compared to the majors? I mean, I've never seen an Intrada or an FSM in a store (although I do live in the UK). Maybe that's a factor in this, in that maybe they want to get the music out to the widest audience possible, especially with a property like Indy or SW? I could be talking out of my ass, but it's just a thought, and just trying to be a bit more realistic about why this might happen, instead of just sitting here and calling Lucas a twat, not that it excuses them with some of the great wide releases we've seen (such as the SEs and SUPERMAN, and Indy, which I still think was a great release, even with its issues/missing music). That's why I like Varese, because I do sometimes find them in places like HMV.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

A serious question: how does the specialist labels distribution work compared to the majors? I mean, I've never seen an Intrada or an FSM in a store (although I do live in the UK). Maybe that's a factor in this, in that maybe they want to get the music out to the widest audience possible, especially with a property like Indy or SW? I could be talking out of my ass, but it's just a thought, and just trying to be a bit more realistic about why this might happen, instead of just sitting here and calling Lucas a twat, not that it excuses them with some of the great wide releases we've seen (such as the SEs and SUPERMAN, and Indy, which I still think was a great release, even with its issues/missing music). That's why I like Varese, because I do sometimes find them in places like HMV.

I bought FSM's release of Born Free and saw a limited edition LaLaLand release that was limited to 1000 copies at a local JB-HiFi (a large music and electronics chain in Australia).

[Ollie 1,059]

A serious question: how does the specialist labels distribution work compared to the majors? I mean, I've never seen an Intrada or an FSM in a store (although I do live in the UK). Maybe that's a factor in this, in that maybe they want to get the music out to the widest audience possible, especially with a property like Indy or SW? I could be talking out of my ass, but it's just a thought, and just trying to be a bit more realistic about why this might happen, instead of just sitting here and calling Lucas a twat, not that it excuses them with some of the great wide releases we've seen (such as the SEs and SUPERMAN, and Indy, which I still think was a great release, even with its issues/missing music). That's why I like Varese, because I do sometimes find them in places like HMV.

Intrada used to distribute in stores but that was for their non-limited releases. At one time Film Score Monthly had a deal with Tower Records. It was nice to go into a Tower and see all those FSM titles. LaLaLand appears to distribute their non-limited releases in places like Barnes & Noble.

But from what I understand, allowing the discs to be carried by regular retailers is/was a headache and the various labels have had problems with payments from retailers and whatnot. I believe both Lukas Kendall and Doug Fake have spoken about this on their respective message boards. They prefer to distibute online through the various soundtrack specialty dealers.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

We are in a position to demand nothing. They, on the other hand, are in a position to grant nothing.

Was there any indication from anywhere how well the IJ set sold? It was allegedly a "limited edition", yet it's still widely available for whatever that's worth.