The Jungle Chase

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Well, I like it and its one of my favorite tracks on the album.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

JW's finest setpiece cues tell musical stories - there's a narrative: a beginning, middle and end. He hasn't told a "story" for many years now and he certainly didn't do so at any point in KotCS. If anything, it felt like he was working his way down an old worn check list.

Data, your second paragraph is very interesting, I'm inclined to agree with you.

I don't know what you are talking about there, how do you define musical narrative because I think The Jungle Chase definitely has narrative.

I think Jungle Chase is merely a sequence of orchestrational prowess and flair - I personally hear nothing which which ties it all together; obligatory Raider's March aside. Desert Chase, Indy's First Adventure and Belly of the Steel Beast on the other hand, have a sense of driven urgency and deeply thoughtful motivation - the listener can almost second guess where the music is going to go next, where the next flourish, or cresendo will come into play. The very nature of a great Indy movie and score somehow makes the experience an inevitable one, predictable even.

Then again perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps it all boils down to a matter of taste, again.

Well to me the musical storytelling in The Jungle Chase is as clear as day. No, it isn't exactly based around a singular musical idea, but then again neither was something like The Battle of Hoth or The ROTJ final battle so that doesn't really make it any less narrative. I think the ebb and flow and a sense of thrill was expertly captured in the Jungle Chase.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

Jungle Chase to me is a lot of music just kind of randomly jumbled together in accordance with whatever is occurring in the scene. There isn't much continuity. For a modern example of that, refer to POA's Quidditch scene. I would have preferred something more along the line of TLW's unused Hunt music!

[Brónach 1,303]

I don't really like "The Adventures of Mutt" melody. I like the rythms and the variations on Irina's theme in this cue, though.

[Quintus 5,399]

I would have preferred something more along the line of TLW's unused Hunt music!

Yes. The action cues heard during the action sequences of the child Anakin Skywalker are along the same lines. Stuff like the Pod race sequence and later when he's in his space battle - great examples of that particular approach.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

There is nothing in TPM that resembles 'The Hunt' AT ALL..

[Quintus 5,399]

WTF are you talking about? You clearly haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I would have preferred something more along the line of TLW's unused Hunt music!

Yes. The action cues heard during the action sequences of the child Anakin Skywalker are along the same lines. Stuff like the Pod race sequence and later when he's in his space battle - great examples of that particular approach.

Those are also much much shorter pieces. The Jungle Chase is more akin to The Battle of Hoth or the Quidditich match in the first HP movie.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

If anyone's interested, I've uploaded the three alternates on YouTube. The third one is the best, in my opinion...

[Quintus 5,399]

Cheers Mike, I check them out when I'm next on.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

I would have preferred something more along the line of TLW's unused Hunt music!

Yes. The action cues heard during the action sequences of the child Anakin Skywalker are along the same lines. Stuff like the Pod race sequence and later when he's in his space battle - great examples of that particular approach.

Or something got lost into translation or this statement of yours says that That TPM music is ethnic rythmic percussion driven cues...

If anyone's interested, I've uploaded the three alternates on YouTube. The third one is the best, in my opinion...

BUt that third part is the last part of the track. Is it true alternate or just that it contains unused music for a longer cut?

Anyway there must be alternates at least for some segments (staff of kings had one or two seconds of the very ending in a very concert version way)

[Pieter Boelen 741]

Those alternates are really interesting; thanks Michael!

While it's clear that the same general idea was applied as in the finished film, especially the third alternate makes for a much better listen.

The main difference seems to be that in the third alternate, rather than switching from the "serious march" to "comedy Raiders March", just doesn't happen.

So instead of several sudden switches in tone, it remains serious all the way through, which definitly helps.

I think that might be one of the main misfires of the KotCS music in general; I just can't take it seriously.

Of course the Indiana Jones films AREN'T serious, but to stick comedy sections in the middle of cool action music doesn't help with my engagement level whatsoever.

Another example of this is, say, "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra" vs. "A Whirl Through Academe".

These are two very similar scenes in that they both concern a motorcycle chase.

The first track, while somewhat comedic in nature, is still quite on the serious and engaging side of things.

The latter track sounds rather bright and constantly seems to swap between somewhat serious and threatening music to comedic phrases pretty much all the time.

There's also some instrument that I don't know the name of that seems to be frequently used throughout the score for KotCS that just really sounds too comedic in nature to me.

It just doesn't really work for me. And that is coming from someone who considers the first three Indiana Jones scores as pretty much John Williams' best.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

The escape from the castle scenes are full of action mickey mousing. Like jungle chase.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

You mean like in the track "Alarm!"? Yep, definitly some comedy stuff in there, though it does seem to build momentum throughout,

unlike pretty much anything in KotCS where the comedy merely seems to disrupt whatever else is going on musically.

Actually, come to think of it, that does seem to describe the film also, so in a way, that the music does this as well is quite appropriate.

And if "The Jungle Chase" can be compared with "Belly of the Steel Beast", it's very clear to me which track has the more serious tone.

Although seriousness is, of course, not a requirement for good music, I do think that at least continuous shifts in direction do not help my enjoyment of the music.

Being a big fan of Indiana Jones music in general, including also the music to the Emperor's Tomb computer game,

I've been wondering for quite some time why I can't really get much enjoyment out of the music for Indiana Jones 4.

I still haven't quite figured it out, but I reckon that some of the comedy level really doesn't help.

Interestingly enough, Jerry Goldsmith's music for King Solomon's Mines also has a very clear comedic undercurrent to it,

but I really, really like that score and it always makes me smile. But then I consider that film a comedy more so than an adventure film,

while any Indiana Jones movie is more an adventure movie with comedic elements than a comedy.

[Incanus 5,735]

If anyone's interested, I've uploaded the three alternates on YouTube. The third one is the best, in my opinion...

Wonderful alternates. Thanks for sharing!

[Jonesy 55]

If anyone's interested, I've uploaded the three alternates on YouTube. The third one is the best, in my opinion...

The third alternate is amazing and I think appears in Lego Indiana Jones 2

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

That's the source of it. Dont you hear the muted ant in the background?

[gkgyver 1,646]

I think Jungle Chase is merely a sequence of orchestrational prowess and flair - I personally hear nothing which which ties it all together; obligatory Raider's March aside.

Second that.

[Jay 37,542]

None of those 3 clips are alternates at all.

"The Jungle Chase" is made up of 3 separately recorded cues that were stitched together. We'll call them "The Jungle Chase Begins", "Irina's Great Blade", and "Ugh, Vines"

The first 2 "alternates" in that youtube clip are basically the full "The Jungle Chase Begins"

The 3rd "alternate" is the beginning of "Ugh, Vines". Williams later rescored the final 2 minutes of Ugh Vines, and that's what's heard in the film and on the OST.

So, its an "alternate" to what ended up being used, but it is Williams original intention.

There's only one version of the first two, though.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

Ugh, Vines is Mutt swinging? So that alternate Raiders March was added later on?

[Romão 2,276]

I think some people equate coherence in an action musical sequence with theme repition (introduction, development, rendition, etc), where as I don't think a great action musical sequence needs necessarly to contain a great deal of thematic development, even if the thematic material would be exclusive to the action sequence itself.

True, JW has written some great action pieces which are almost ballet like in their thematic presentation and permutation through various rythms and instrumentations, in which the track is almost, from the beginning to end, the complete development of a thematic, motivic or rythmic idea (Mine Car Chase, Jungle Chase, the Basket Game, Scherzo for Motorcyle and Orchestra, The Hunt), and those sort of tracks are great. However, not containing these characteristics does not mean the piece is not coherent or random or too much mickey mousing driven. I'll give you one clear example: T-Rex rescue and Finale. I don't think there is a clear thematic idea that runs through the entire course of the track. At firsten listen it might indeed sound random and fragmented. But it is, IMHO, one of the very best pieces JW has ever composed, totally coherent in its presentation, unpredicatable and at the same time totally satisfying in its twists and turns, with very strong and great musical ideas spread troughout (so many of them indeed, that you could take just one of them and make a full action piece derived from it alone). YOu could say pretty much the same thing from a great portion of the Battle of Endor sequence.

I'll be honest, though, Desert Chase has always somewhat bored me in its "Theme and repition" form (it is still a great track, mind you, I just wouldn't put it in the pinacle of JW's great action tracks). A more recent track like Everybody Runs! shows how JW can still write a more "balletic" action piece, fully developed within itself without having to resort to almost any repetition at all. Or the first half of Zam the Assassin..

[Quintus 5,399]

I think some people equate coherence in an action musical sequence with theme repition (introduction, development, rendition, etc), where as I don't think a great action musical sequence needs necessarly to contain a great deal of thematic development, even if the thematic material would be exclusive to the action sequence itself.

Indeed, another cue from Jurassic Park which qualifies is the brilliant High Wire Stunts. What I and I think some others here are saying is that Jungle Chase has no such qualities, at least not on the level of JW at his peak. It's a good cue; but it ain't as brilliant as something like T Rex Recue and Finale. For me at least, "theme repetition (introduction, development, rendition, etc)" has no baring on whether or not I find a cue effective, or enjoyable. Barry's Abduction is further proof of that.

[Datameister 2,097]

Good observation, Merkel. I think you're right - clear thematic or motivic development through a cue is not necessary for coherence and a sense of direction, though it does help. But through whatever means, the cue (or series of cues) as a whole has to have a satisfying emotional arc to it.

[Faleel 5,453]

emotion is the key i think in whether a cue is good enough, four examples:

#1 Desert Chase: it may start out rather uninteresting but once the first mentions of the RM and the Nazi Motif it kicks into high gear then the "Heartbeat Rythem" comes into play filling you (or atleast me) with a sense of suspense making you wonder if this is the end for our hero

#2 Crusade of The Slave Children: this one fills you (or me...again) with a sense of pride/hope

#3 The Temple of Doom/Sanskrit Sacrifice: While not nessecarily an action cue this one fills you with a sense of horror. (and is far superior to DOTF and even BOTH or atleast it is to me)

#4 Flight to Peru: everything

[Datameister 2,097]

I don't think the desert chase sequence starts out uninteresting at all! But yes, emotion is key. Except in cases where the important emotion is a sense of frantic chaos, action music really does have to carry some other sort of emotional weight to it.

[Faleel 5,453]

well there is Bad, Fair, Good, Better, Excellent, Super, Awesome, Perfect, and Epic

Desert Chase starts out Excellent then becomes super when the raiders march starts, then becomes awesome when it first starts to play the nazi theme, then Perfect when the "Hearbeat Rythem" kicks in then becomes Epic when the Raiders March finally overcomes the "HB" and plays in all its B Theme glory (or is it the A Theme? lol i just noticed A Theme - A Team)

[crocodile 8,074]

None of those 3 clips are alternates at all.

"The Jungle Chase" is made up of 3 separately recorded cues that were stitched together. We'll call them "The Jungle Chase Begins", "Irina's Great Blade", and "Ugh, Vines"

The first 2 "alternates" in that youtube clip are basically the full "The Jungle Chase Begins"

The 3rd "alternate" is the beginning of "Ugh, Vines". Williams later rescored the final 2 minutes of Ugh Vines, and that's what's heard in the film and on the OST.

So, its an "alternate" to what ended up being used, but it is Williams original intention.

There's only one version of the first two, though.

Isn't the film version ending to the chase different to the one on the OST?

Karol - who doesn't remember anymore

[Richard Penna 3,781]

The film version of where Mutt sees that monkey at the end of the vine swinging is different to the OST, and I much prefer the film version.

Plus at the end of that alternate, the edit leading into the final march is pretty blatant (in the rear channels at least).

Looks like I kept the 'ceremony' cue from ToD but I can't imagine ever actually listening to that. There's nothing musical in it, and it's just typical of Williams' bizarre idea of a listening experience that he included it on an already pathetic OST.

[crocodile 8,074]

The film version of where Mutt sees that monkey at the end of the vine swinging is different to the OST, and I much prefer the film version.

No, I mean the actual ending of the cue, just before the crash (the last minute or so). Different/alternate take or something. I'm not sure anymore and I can't check, because I haven't got my copy of the film anymore.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

I think it is the same. Could be edited.

[Morn 8]

JW's finest setpiece cues tell musical stories - there's a narrative: a beginning, middle and end. He hasn't told a "story" for many years now and he certainly didn't do so at any point in KotCS. If anything, it felt like he was working his way down an old worn check list.

Data, your second paragraph is very interesting, I'm inclined to agree with you.

I don't know what you are talking about there, how do you define musical narrative because I think The Jungle Chase definitely has narrative.

I think Jungle Chase is merely a sequence of orchestrational prowess and flair - I personally hear nothing which which ties it all together; obligatory Raider's March aside. Desert Chase, Indy's First Adventure and Belly of the Steel Beast on the other hand, have a sense of driven urgency and deeply thoughtful motivation - the listener can almost second guess where the music is going to go next, where the next flourish, or cresendo will come into play. The very nature of a great Indy movie and score somehow makes the experience an inevitable one, predictable even.

Then again perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps it all boils down to a matter of taste, again.

If I considered that important I'd probably listen to classical symphonies more than film music. What's great about jungle chase is it's pure aggressiveness. Great rhythm and brilliant virtuosic brass lines.

I really believe it's a generational thing for some people to prefer stuff in Indy IV to the originals.

I don't. I'm 26... But I mostly listen to, other than Williams, Alex North, Bernard Herrmann and Jerry Goldsmith. If anything today's composers sound older than these past greats. (cough, unoriginality). I think Williams music of the last decade has become more adventurous and more like Goldsmith and North. More modernism less neo-romanticism And that I like.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Luke, you mentioned that on the Staff of Kings game there are versions that seem to sound like a concert version, or something like that if I'm not mistaken. Any chance we could listen to them?

[Henry B 50]

There's no concert version - just an alternate version of the last of three cues.

[Jay 37,542]

Yea, "The Adventures Of Mutt" is the concert version

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

That alternate ends with much bombast to be a film version...

There is also a LSO concert version of jabba the hutt that was NOT released. Yet it was recorded.

Maybe williams just had to choose how many concert arrangements he had to put on the CD. (too many as it is...)

Luke, you mentioned that on the Staff of Kings game there are versions that seem to sound like a concert version, or something like that if I'm not mistaken. Any chance we could listen to them?

here it is: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9IUKVNJT

mind you, its only 7 seconds.

Maybe it is not a concert version.. just that williams got carried away and he had to rewrite a more restrained version...

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

here it is: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9IUKVNJT

mind you, its only 7 seconds.

Maybe it is not a concert version.. just that williams got carried away and he had to rewrite a more restrained version.

That's really cool! Thanks a lot! I like it, but yeah... I don't it would have fit the movie. Again, thanks!

[Pieter Boelen 741]

That IS really cool. Is it editable into anything existing?

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

i think you could substitute that part from the OST.

Or even try to mix it with the last 'alternate' on the youtube file, it seems to fit that performance after all.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

Would be interesting to hear; maybe I'll try it one day...

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

Jason you PM box is full.

[Jay 37,542]

Hmmm. It says I am only using 99 out of 100. Wojo was unable to PM me the other day as well. I wonder if there is a bug?

I'll trying PMing you, then you can reply to it.