Star Wars in 3D starting 2012 (Update: AOTC and ROTS cancelled)

[Sandor 797]

For a long time I thought like you do

Obi-Wan once thought as you do...

Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that the public is aware of how terrible the prequels are, but the OT I think still has its reputation reasonably intact, which is why I'm kind of baffled they went with TPM first. Perhaps they are counting on the fans thinking that they won't do ROTS/the OT unless the first two are a success, which is probably on the money.

I think that the bad reputation of the prequels (and stuff like Hayden in ROTJ - something that the common (not geeky) filmfan has noticed and rejected) has influenced the way people regard Star Wars as a franchise, including the OT.

Perhaps the 30 year olds of today, the people who lived Star Wars when it was truly great, still have a soft spot for 'the old films'.

But the newer generations don't make that distinction I've noticed. For them there is just 'Star Wars', a franchise consisting of 6 films, cartoons, comics, etc. They don't really know when what film was made, the cultural impact the OT has had, etc.

So yes, the 30 year olds will probably want to see the OT in 3D. But the hard truth is that the biggest movie going public are teenagers and young adults. The Pirates of the Carribean-generation, the ones that made Transformers 2 a success... And they are not too fond of Star Wars...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Huh, didn't Star Wars kill the serious film industry and usher in the era of the marketed minded films, with countless sequels, only made to serve the teenage market?

Transformers 2, and Pirates of the Caribbean 3 are there because of Star Wars.

[Sandor 797]

Huh, didn't Star Wars kill the serious film industry and usher in the era of the marketed minded films, with countless sequels, only made to serve the teenage market?

Transformers 2, and Pirates of the Caribbean 3 are there because of Star Wars.

Absolutely.

But during the late 70's and early 80's there was a tendency to actually put some artistic merit to these kind of movies. Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters, Empire, Raiders, E.T., ... These are all **** star films in my book and there was true craft in developing the stories and characters behind those productions.

However during those years there were countless 'Transformers 2'-type movies too. They just didn't make a lot of money. It wasn't all good, just like nowadays it's not all bad. Ten years ago we had LOTR and I'm sure something great is on the horizon as we speak...

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I've never heard one person who wasn't a geek or a fan complain about the SEs. I even heard people in my work talking about them yesterday, the general consensus was that the prequels were ok but nothing beats the original three. I'm not denying those people exist, but I've never ever experienced it personally.

I just think SW in 3-D will be irresistible for a lot of people. Whether it'll be a massive hit or not, I don't know. But I think a lot will go, whether it'll be hardcore fans, kids who have grown up on Clone Wars, or people who were kids when TPM came out and may want to just see lightsaber battles in 3-D.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Absolutely.

But during the late 70's and early 80's there was a tendency to actually put some artistic merit to these kind of movies. Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters, Empire, Raiders, E.T., ... These are all **** star films in my book and there was true craft in developing the stories and characters behind those productions.

The problem is that is how people feel NOW, and that is felt mostly by those who grew up with them. Back in the day there was some critique towards films like Raiders, Star Wars etc for being superficial, audience pleasing, technologically minded. Pauline Kael especially reared against them.

It's as much a generational thing as anything else.

Also the truly great films from that era are remembered, but there was a lot of bullshit released, big budget or otherwise that has now been mostly forgotten. Like Transformers 2 will be forgotten in 25 years time.

LOTR will be remembered though, and The Matrix, and maybe Avatar.

[Sandor 797]

I've never heard one person who wasn't a geek or a fan complain about the SEs. I even heard people in my work talking about them yesterday, the general consensus was that the prequels were ok but nothing beats the original three. I'm not denying those people exist, but I've never ever experienced it personally.

I just think SW in 3-D will be irresistible for a lot of people. Whether it'll be a massive hit or not, I don't know. But I think a lot will go, whether it'll be hardcore fans, kids who have grown up on Clone Wars, or people who were kids when TPM came out and may want to just see lightsaber battles in 3-D.

I was in London a few weeks ago and noticed that in the UK Star Wars is indeed still quite respected. The same with Michael Jackson. So it doesn't really surprise me that your colleagues have a certain love for Star Wars that has grown cold in many other parts of the Earth. I don't mean this denegrating or whatever. Just something I've observed.

I was in the US last year and was struck by a much bleaker appreciation of Star Wars. Here in The Netherlands it's even worse. I guess only time will tell what these re-released will generate, but I fear the worse.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I just think SW in 3-D will be irresistible for a lot of people. Whether it'll be a massive hit or not, I don't know. But I think a lot will go, whether it'll be hardcore fans, kids who have grown up on Clone Wars, or people who were kids when TPM came out and may want to just see lightsaber battles in 3-D.

Star Wars,. to a large amount of people means entertainment, big special effects, action, light sabers, and those seeking only that will be happy to see it all in 3D.

The problem the Star Wars saga has is that in the interval between ROTJ and TPM (or possibly even before ROTJ) it has build up such a massive and devoted fanbase, which build such an epic mythology around it, that it when Lucas returned to it, with his Gungans, farting cows etc, he made clear that Star Wars, as a universe had far outgrown even his own limited imigination and sensibilities.

Star Wars, as created by George Lucas probably never had the depth and texture that people afterwards gave it.

[Sandor 797]

Absolutely.

But during the late 70's and early 80's there was a tendency to actually put some artistic merit to these kind of movies. Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters, Empire, Raiders, E.T., ... These are all **** star films in my book and there was true craft in developing the stories and characters behind those productions.

The problem is that is how people feel NOW, and that is felt mostly by those who grew up with them. Back in the day there was some critique towards films like Raiders, Star Wars etc for being superficial, audience pleasing, technologically minded. Pauline Kael especially reared against them.

It's as much a generational thing as anything else.

Also the truly great films from that era are remembered, but there was a lot of bullshit released, big budget or otherwise that has now been mostly forgotten. Like Transformers 2 will be forgotten in 25 years time.

LOTR will be remembered though, and The Matrix, and maybe Avatar.

A lot of nonsense Stefan. Sorry. Don't bring op Kael; sadly she is a critic that is quoted a lot, but her opinion is almost never representative of the general critical reception at the time.

Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters, Empire, Raiders and E.T. were just as respected during their years of release as they are now. You are so wrong in thinking that they have gathered a certain reputation over time. Like LOTR was critically well received upon release, so were Jaws, Star Wars, Raiders, E.T., etc. Those even got Best Picture Academy Award nominations and all of them were rewarded **** stars by various reviewers. Take that as you will. And I already said that a lot of shit was released during those years as well. Even seen Space Raiders...? Ouch...!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Maybe i'm talking rubbish, but comparing Transformers 2 with Raiders Of The Lost Ark is even more silly.

What serious critic gave Transformers 2 a good review?

A fair comparison should be Police Academy 2, one of that years biggest hits.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I agree with Stefan.

I also think that LucasFilm itself contributed to sell Star Wars mainly for its most superficial values/aspects, especially over the course of these last 10-15 years. It's no doubt that Lucas' creation has a strong mythological resonance buried inside its own pulp/entertainment/commercial heart, but it seems now that Star Wars is just lightsabers, wookie howls, spaceships, one-liners and R2D2 bleeps. This was very evident when I saw "Star Wars in Concert"--here everything was diluted down to the most superficial aspects (except the music, of course) and the true core values of the films seemed very distant. Suddenly, it became clear to me that Star Wars is now just a product of pop entertainment and nothing else, even for its own very creator. Thanks heaven that at least John Williams' music is one of the very few objects that kept its own deep, inner artistic value throughout the decades.

I know people embraced Star Wars also for its own fancy and light-hearted aspects and I too like them very much, but if I stop to ponder why the classic Trilogy struck such a chord with me back then, it's mainly because it provided me a strong, well-told, engaging story in which I could project the best part of myself and my own aspirations.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It's worth noting that Kael loved ESB.

But Star Wars always was pop entertainment, and was carefully constructed as that very thing, it was just a good thing at the time that Lucas was still a young talent and at that point was a great filmmaker who understood the value of using mythological and archetypal underpinning with fun entertainment. Unfortunately, as Stefan said Lucas lost something between 83 and 99, and the saga suffered.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If you will make the (very obvious) comparison between the universes of Star Wars and Tolkien's Middle Earth (which I am rediscovering) you will find that much of the depth and mythology of the first was adapted and expanded by people other then it's creator (the devoted fans, authors of the expanded universe books, games etc). However Tolkien created a world that is wholly his own vision, and though others have added to it, it has became far, far less diluted from it's original source.

[Sandor 797]

Maybe i'm talking rubbish, but comparing Transformers 2 with Raiders Of The Lost Ark is even more silly.

And where did I do this exactly...?

A fair comparison should be Police Academy 2, one of that years biggest hits.

Police Academy 2 is not from 1981, so what's your point? And it's a comedy and not a genre-film.

Again; shit has always been produced by Hollywood. But during the late 70's to mid 80's a string of films were released that presented good, original stories with great characters and ideas. Films like Star Wars, Alien or Back To The Future. Every year there was at least one film that became part of our cultural heritage. Now - I feel - we have to wait every 10 years or so for a film that is so well thought out. Hollywood's all about the money. Always has been. But the studio executives gave more artistic freedom to the creaters of big production genre films back then. That's why Scott could hire Giger to design his Alien. I feel those executives have a lot more power nowadays, also on the artistic level of filmmaking and in the end they are responsible for the many Transformers out there, and the little LOTR....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But Star Wars always was pop entertainment, and was carefully constructed as that very thing,

Very true, but it's fans ran with it and created a whole universe around those 3 films, (helped eagerly be Lucasfilm, who saw the financial potential). For them Star Wars became MORE then just pop-corn entertainment. But I maintain that is is THEM that made it more then the sum of it's parts, not so much Lucas.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

You mean those people who wrote books about finding Luke's severed hand on Bespin and using it to create a clone of Luke called "Luuke"?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I feel those executives have a lot more power nowadays, also on the artistic level of filmmaking and in the end they are responsible for the many Transformers out there, and the little LOTR....

With that I will agree. LOTR was very much a PETER JACKSON phenomenon. Tolkien channelled though the vision of a passionate director. If you watch those films you see PJ, not New Line.

Pity King Kong was less successful in that regard.

[TownerFan 4,983]

If you will make the (very obvious) comparison between the universes of Star Wars and Tolkien's Middle Earth (which I am rediscovering) you will find that much of the depth and mythology of the first was adapted and expanded by people other then it's creator (the devoted fans, authors of the expanded universe books, games etc). However Tolkien created a world that is wholly his own vision, and though others have added to it, it has became far, far less diluted from it's original source.

When I speak about Star Wars' mythological resonance I'm not thinking about the so-called "expanded universe" or that kind of things, since I never got in touch with that. I talk about the OT's storyline and its own development (i.e.: a well-done take on the Hero's Journey), the stuff that Joseph Campbell himself acknowledged in his book "The Power of Myth". This is imho what made these films all-time classics (at least for me). It's clear that even in this department Lucas didn't invent too much, but he was surely deft to take various themes and threads from mythological tales from every corner (from Arthurian legends to Lord of the Rings, but also westerns, samurai stories, comic books and 1930s adventure films) and condense them into a powerful, exciting mix. Of course we should take into account the contributions that Gary Kurtz, Irvin Kershner, Larry Kasdan and Leigh Brackett made, with a tip of the hat also to Williams and his music (something that really gave a timeless soul to these films).

I too think Tolkien's creation is far more complex and coherent, but it's something born out differently. Even though it became part of pop entertainment, LOTR is mainly a masterpiece of modern literature. Star Wars instead is a motion picture produced in Hollywood by a then-visionary and talented filmmaker that spawned a mythology only after its success.

[Sandor 797]

If you will make the (very obvious) comparison between the universes of Star Wars and Tolkien's Middle Earth (which I am rediscovering) you will find that much of the depth and mythology of the first was adapted and expanded by people other then it's creator (the devoted fans, authors of the expanded universe books, games etc). However Tolkien created a world that is wholly his own vision, and though others have added to it, it has became far, far less diluted from it's original source.

I'm a huge Star Wars fan, but I was never - not as a child or later on - captivated by a so called 'larger mythology or depth'. I've loved Star Wars mostly for its almost fairytale-like simplicity, and for its truly iconic imagery and great music. I've never made it more than it is. I don't like the expanded universe, the books and stuff like that.

I feel those executives have a lot more power nowadays, also on the artistic level of filmmaking and in the end they are responsible for the many Transformers out there, and the little LOTR....

With that I will agree. LOTR was very much a PETER JACKSON phenomenon. Tolkien channelled though the vision of a passionate director. If you watch those films you see PJ, not New Line.

Pity King Kong was less successful in that regard.

King Kong was made by the Peter Jackson who put Legolas taking down a Oliphant on his own in ROTK at the last moment...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That was a cool scene though....

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I love that scene.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Those bits are brilliant parts of what is one of the greatest cinematic battles ever mounted.

I still consider the arrival and charge of the Rohirrim as my all time favourite scene in a movie. NEVER has a cinematic experience left me so stirred, so heart poundingly exhilarated, as it did there.

[Sandor 797]

Those bits are brilliant parts of what is one of the greatest cinematic battles ever mounted.

I still consider the arrival and charge of the Rohirrim as my all time favourite scene in a movie. NEVER has a cinematic experience left me so stirred, so heart poundingly exhilarated, as it did there.

That's easily one of the best scenes from the LOTR movies. But for some reason I still find the battle at Helm's Deep from TTT to be much more exciting and engaging than the battle at Minas Tirith. At Helm's Deep I really cared about the well-being of the characters and that made the whole sequence very powerful for me. I was emotionally very involved.

Minas Tirith is very CGI heavy with beasts, monsters, ghosts, etc. and despite the fact that it's full of fantastic images, it couldn't get top the pure excitement of Helm's Deep. I felt Jackson went almost a little too far on certain things, especially with Legolas taking down the big beast. It's very cool - don't get me wrong, but Legolas getting on his horse just before the Warg battle in TTT was just as cool to me mainly because it was so subtle. FOTR was also full of Legolas doing short, unexpected cool things which made me think: "Wow! Did I just see that right...?!". Him taking down the beast was anything but subtle. It even got some bad reactions from the audience I saw the film with.

[Quintus 5,399]

I just think Lego taking down the Oliphant is fun and cool, it doesn't bug me, or grate. The daft joke on the end of it seals its intention very well, I think.

Helms Deep is indeed a superb sequence, yet I came away from the cinema largely disappointed with it. Basically, I wasn't prepared for the lighthearted edge Gimli and Lego brought to it (ironic, I know). Their tit-for-tat kill-counting (whilst being faithful to the book) really jarred with me - the tone of the movie is otherwise very grim and serious, and their banter didn't sit right with me; especially after the semi-serious action frolics of the first movie.

However, since then I have warmed to Helms Deep and I agree now that it's a class act.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I prefer Helm's Deep. But both are awesome.

It even got some bad reactions from the audience I saw the film with.

Your audience was bad and they should feel bad.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I've never heard one person who wasn't a geek or a fan complain about the SEs.

I can complain about them, and I have, but inevitably I can and will continue to watch them. The core movies are undisturbed. I would rather watch the old versions, but I can't turn down the altered versions in HD. There's no closer way to reproduce a cinematic type experience of the movies. Blowing up letterbox DVDs doesn't work and fan edits don't really, either. Cannot wait for the Blu-rays.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I've never heard one person who wasn't a geek or a fan complain about the SEs.

I can complain about them, and I have, but inevitably I can and will continue to watch them. The core movies are undisturbed. I would rather watch the old versions, but I can't turn down the altered versions in HD. There's no closer way to reproduce a cinematic type experience of the movies. Blowing up letterbox DVDs doesn't work and fan edits don't really, either. Cannot wait for the Blu-rays.

Which is exactly how I feel.

[A24 4,338]

I haven't read the whole thread but did George Lucas already claim that he originally wanted to shoot the films in 3D but that the technology wasn't ready for it in 1977?

[Ollie 1,059]

It's scary to think what Lucas would have done to those films had he had the technology he wanted.

You mean those people who wrote books about finding Luke's severed hand on Bespin and using it to create a clone of Luke called "Luuke"?

I don't care about all the UE junk either but say what you want but Timothy Zahn's trilogy was much more interesting than the prequels. At least there was an explanation compared to all these Boba Fett Clones appearing out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly becoming Stormtroopers even though it had been somewhat established they were normal soldiers in the original trilogy.

[Wojo 2,453]

Lucas' rationale is that if the technology had existed in 1977 (etc.) to present the films in the manner of his most recent edits, we'd never know the difference. We'd live in a world where Han shot second and Anakin Skywalker's ghost looked 25 years old because we wouldn't know any better.

That's what's scary.

Which is worse? The prequels or the Jedi Prince series?

<shudder>

[Ollie 1,059]

Way back after Heir To The Empire, I started collecting the UE books and quickly came to two conclusions, Luke, Leia and Han were better off before defeating the Empire and the books were a waste of time with the same recycled crap.

I mean if I were Han and had a look into the future before I took the original fair to Alderaan, I would have said f*ck it and stayed with the smuggling. The Galaxy was better off with the Empire in charge.

[crocodile 8,017]

I mean if I were Han and had a look into the future before I took the original fair to Alderaan, I would have said f*ck it and stayed with the smuggling. The Galaxy was better off with the Empire in charge.

My god, I wasted so much time reading this crap. There were maybe like 3-4 worthwhile books in there.

Karol

[Charlie Brigden 7]

The only EU I really liked were the Marvel series (read 'Ellie' by Mary Jo Duffy, it's amazing) and the SW Tales series. The rest of it (Zahn included) can go spin.

[crocodile 8,017]

The Zahn trilogy is terribly overrated (everything from the films is recycled in these books). But his hand of Thrawn thing was much better. At least it felt like its own thing.

Karol

[Jeff 10]

Anyone who doesn't think the 3D release is going to make a killing is delusional. Even AOTC (the least successful of the saga in terms of attendance) made $310M domestically, making it the 30th highest-grossing film of all time. Star Wars made $138M in its 1997 release - that would be something like $230M adjusted for inflation.

These are films best experienced on the big screen. Whether certain fans are turned off or not by the SE, the prequels, or 3D, people still want to see them. Being in a theater when "Star Wars" bursts on the screen and we hear the main theme with the opening scroll is electrifying. People will flock to see these movies again.

I would be surprised if the gross was less than $100M per film. At 3D pricing, $300M is not out of the question. Don't underestimate the power of Lucas.

[Jay 37,369]

Only on JWFan can there be a debate about Legolas taking down in Oliphaunt in a thread about Star Wars movies in 3D. I love it

And Mark, I quite enjoyed the Timothy Zahn Star Wars books, but the more books that came out after that the worse and worse they got.

And it makes sense there'd be a rebuilding period after the Empire was taken down.

[Datameister 2,044]

Which is worse? The prequels or the Jedi Prince series?

Not sure...loved both when I was a kid, but that was a long time ago, in a -

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Fortunately never read them because they were not adult novels....and the size is not mass market paperback

The only good thing about them must the struzan cover paintings!

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Fortunately never read them because they were not adult novels....and the size is not mass market paperback

The only good thing about them must the struzan cover paintings!

Let's be honest, none of these are really adult novels.

[crocodile 8,017]

Only on JWFan can there be a debate about Legolas taking down in Oliphaunt in a thread about Star Wars movies in 3D. I love it

It all comes down to sex in the end though.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Fortunately never read them because they were not adult novels....and the size is not mass market paperback

The only good thing about them must the struzan cover paintings!

Let's be honest, none of these are really adult novels.

young adult...

[Wojo 2,453]

In order to be sanctioned as canon, all officially licensed Star Wars works have to be blessed by GL himself. I doubt the man behind the juvenile Ewoks and Jar-Jar would approve of that which makes "adult novels" that which they are: sexual situations. More's the pity.

[Ollie 1,059]

If you know where to look you can find adult Star Wars cartoons........

And Mark, I quite enjoyed the Timothy Zahn Star Wars books, but the more books that came out after that the worse and worse they got.

And it makes sense there'd be a rebuilding period after the Empire was taken down.

Oh I understand that but based on all the novels and reviews I read, it ain't gotten any better since the Empire fell.

It's like a never ending circle, bad guys, families in crisis, kids turning to dark Jedi's etc etc etc.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Yeah. They had some alien idiots who tried to take over, Han and Leia's kids grew up, Luke had a kid, they naturally all became Jedi, one of them went bad and went dark side. Then they went 100 years into the future and starred Luke's great-great-great-great-grandson, who was an absolute dick, and a bunch of idiotic looking Sith Lords.

Fuck that. Give me the story where George Binks expresses his disappointment in what a clod his son is. Or where R5-D4 was really a Jedi who committed suicide to make sure Artoo and Threepio weren't split up during the auction.

[Wojo 2,453]

What about the Imperial spies who disguised themselves as bushes at the edge of the Lars moisture farm, who could be seen when we see the giant hole in the ground, but never from above when we see the igloo entrance?

[Jeff 10]

Ok, now you guys have lost me. Are those real plot points in EU novels or are you making that up? It is a mark of the absurdity of some of the novels that I actually find those ideas plausible enough to ask.

[crocodile 8,017]

The R5-D4 is real... Seriously. It was a short comic book strip in Star Wars Tales, I think. Most of the stuff posted above is also real. I'm not sure about Wojo's post though...

Karol

[Charlie Brigden 7]

The ones I mentioned were from the anthology comic series Star Wars Tales. I'm not sure about Wojo's.

http://www.againwiththecomics.com/2011/02/jar-jar-binks-story-by-tony-millionaire.html

[crocodile 8,017]

http://www.againwiththecomics.com/2011/02/jar-jar-binks-story-by-tony-millionaire.html

...my god...

Karol

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Jedi Prince series?

Oh my God. I'd almost forgotten about those. The author totally nailed what it was like living in that period, right down to having the Zahn books and not really reading them.