Star Wars in 3D starting 2012 (Update: AOTC and ROTS cancelled)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I sort of agree with Jeff (and Roald). I usually loves things like that. The reason I love LOTR is because it it such a vast and intricate world, full of detail.

But what spoils it for me is that the Prequels, despite costing hundreds of millions, feel so amateurishly made, on almost every level.

I'm no film maker at all, but the Prequels are the only big budget films were I think I could have improved on both the direction and the writing.

Remember, I did not go into a cinema back in 1999 to hate TPM..

[Quintus 5,399]

For all of his genius in imagination and creation, the single biggest problem with the prequel trilogy is the involvement of George Lucas. On the shop floor. He's the ideas man; he shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the set.

His story - the very one we see in the movies (cheese included) would have probably worked, in the hands of a better director. A skilled, experienced director. Lucas' outright incompetence on the set led to the undoing of the dream.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NosuGeS3kk8

[Datameister 2,043]

For all of his genius in imagination and creation, the single biggest problem with the prequel trilogy is the involvement of George Lucas. On the shop floor. He's the ideas man; he shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the set.

His story - the very one we see in the movies (cheese included) would have probably worked, in the hands of a better director. A skilled, experienced director. Lucas' outright incompetence on the set led to the undoing of the dream.

That's exactly it. If he'd brought other people onboard the way he did with Star Wars and Empire, the prequels would have been great.

[Red 75]

Well, IMO The Phantom Menace is the only prequel that "feels" like a Star Wars movie to me, being the only reason I ever watch it at all (which is usually just in pieces on Spike once and a while). As for the others, they don't feel like Star Wars at all. I did an edit of ROTS to make it better, and while I think I definitely accomplished my goal, it still isn't Star Wars. The animated series, with all its faults, is able to capture more magic and adventure in 22 minutes than Lucas could do in 7 hours. Though, with yes men telling him everything he's doing is wonderful, its easy for Lucas to think his films are good.

I think that's mainly because it was shot on film unlike the other two which were digital, and that compared to the others it utilized a lot more physical sets and effects. There's still a lot of CG yes, some that isn't very good, but they actually bothered to build actual sets. The score helps quite a bit as well.

All that said, it still sucks.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I always thought that the best moments in the prequels (specially in ROTS) was when Lucas let the music do the talking. Take for example "Duel of the Fates", "Battle of the Heroes" or the best one... "Lament". There are some more, like the tracked Arena March on the Jedi Temple, which altough is inappropiate, works wonderfully. Also, "It Can't Be", which is so melodramatic it's awesome.

That's probably why the last half hour of ROTS works so well.

[Datameister 2,043]

Yep. Lucas is at his best with pure sound and visuals. If he gets significant input about all the human interaction, that can work out well, too, but that's not where his strength lies at all.

[Wycket 36]

If only Lawrence Kasdan agreed to write the prequels!

[Quintus 5,399]

With Lucas at the helm, it wouldn't have made any difference.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

If only the prequels weren't so inhuman. I think that Plinkett guy alluded to this in one of his reviews. The characters in the prequels are basically vacuous, phlegmatic and sexless. There's no one to relate to. Whereas the old ones are focused on actual humans that are identifiable to the audience and enjoyable to watch. Even C-3PO and Darth Vader are human underneath their mechanical exteriors, and Threepio is a robot. But he has emotions and a personality. Threepio is like the irritating skittish guy you keep around because he's goodhearted and useful in situations. He just happens to be an android in this universe.

Who in the prequels was remotely identifiable, aside from characters that were in the old ones? The murdering teen? The abstinent Jedi? The clones? The robots the clones fight? Nute Gunray? The monotone Queen with the personality of a rug, but admittedly an ass you'd love to tap? Watto?

[Datameister 2,043]

Exactly. Lucas doesn't understand that side of storytelling very well. His best work all happened when he had the humility to let others take care of that while he focused on the large-scale story, cool gags, stunning visuals, and whatnot.

[Faleel 5,350]

Yes, unfortunately, the first two prequels are very boring. THIS is Star Wars?

ANH much? (the first half/3 quarters of ANH)

[Datameister 2,043]

Since when is Star Wars boring?

[Faleel 5,350]

well once i get to the point when Luke is discussing rescuing Leia with Han im yawning though i concede that it might be more tedious than boring

[Datameister 2,043]

But that's just a brief lull, and one that's necessary plot-wise. And logical. And it only lasts a few minutes before they're on to actually doing something. We know exactly why they're just sitting around, and then comes the crucial plot development of discovering Leia's location, and then we get to explore Han's and Luke's characters briefly as they debate whether to go save her. A decision is made, and then they go do it. In sharp contrast, SO many of the prequel conversations consist of two or more people sitting around with zero meaningful context. They're not doing anything...they have no reason for being where they are...it's just a pretty backdrop for an awkward conversation. THAT makes for boring tedium.

(Although I do feel compelled to remind y'all that I'm not a prequel hater. I'm just very much aware of their numerous flaws.)

[Faleel 5,350]

But that's just a brief lull, and one that's necessary plot-wise. And logical. And it only lasts a few minutes before they're on to actually doing something. We know exactly why they're just sitting around, and then comes the crucial plot development of discovering Leia's location, and then we get to explore Han's and Luke's characters briefly as they debate whether to go save her. A decision is made, and then they go do it. In sharp contrast, SO many of the prequel conversations consist of two or more people sitting around with zero meaningful context. They're not doing anything...they have no reason for being where they are...it's just a pretty backdrop for an awkward conversation. THAT makes for boring tedium.

(Although I do feel compelled to remind y'all that I'm not a prequel hater. I'm just very much aware of their numerous flaws.)

give me an example of one scene in TPM where they are sitting around doing nothing

[Datameister 2,043]

It's actually AOTC and ROTS that suffer more from this syndrome, but if you insist:

* The Jedi arrive at the Trade Federation ship and sit around drinking.

* The Neimoidians never seem to actually do anything except take and give orders. What does the Viceroy of an interplanetary Trade Federation actually do?

* Queen Amidala's cabinet sits around and has a meeting because the planet might be under attack.

* After Tatooine, they all go to Coruscant so they can sit around and talk about political stuff for a few days.

It really only starts to become a big problem after TPM, though - for all its flaws, TPM actually has a fair amount of drive behind it. A lot of the talking happens while the characters are actually attempting to accomplish something. Once AOTC rolls around, there's a lot of scenes with characters just awkwardly sitting around, talking.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The problem is you don't care about anything in TPM. What you do care about is seeing anything relevant to the backstory of the characters and things you know from the old movies. In Star Wars, it's pretty simple and engaging from the start. War, you know, like the title implies. Space battles, gunfights, cool bad guys, the funny and engaging robots fleeing this action with secret plans. There's a story. There's what everyone nowadays somewhat annoyingly refers to as Hitchcock's MacGuffin. I always called it the Holy Grail. But whatever. You're interested in these people (and robots!) and what's going on.

I still remember being dumbfounded for most of Episode I, but trying to justify its shortcomings. I was 12 and I'd been a Star Wars geek for 8 years. Yes I found the special effects cool and yes, I was completely caught up in the hype just like every one else. But that said, TPM is a stinker. It doesn't have any good heroes or villains. There's little intention overall to the story other than to introduce characters? The plot of movies II and III, as bad as those are, leave you wondering why they even bothered with the first movie when the real story actually begins after it. Basically, you're going from once place to the next with little drive. There really should have been a better Grail for TPM other than going to Coruscant. Really? That's it. When they get there, you wonder why they'd even bothered. What a disaster. It seems events transpire simply because the script dictates it, not because any of it really makes any sense.

[Datameister 2,043]

Yep. I never thought of it this way, exactly, but TPM is stronger on the moment-to-moment goal-orientedness, and weaker on the overall plot direction.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I think this thread is not for me...

[Matt C 454]

Prepare for 1999 all over again:

Fox and Lucasfilm have skedded the 3D release of The Phantom Menace for February 10, 2012.

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars3d.htm

Heaven help us. I might see it if I have a chance to do a live MST3K/Rifftrax thing in the theater.

[Sparky 0]

Prepare for 1999 all over again:

Fox and Lucasfilm have skedded the 3D release of The Phantom Menace for February 10, 2012.

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars3d.htm

Heaven help us. I might see it if I have a chance to do a live MST3K/Rifftrax thing in the theater.

Hopefully they won't leave out half of Williams' score this time.

[Andy 4,129]

I'll go see it. Sounds like fun.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,533]

Prepare for 1999 all over again:

Fox and Lucasfilm have skedded the 3D release of The Phantom Menace for February 10, 2012.

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars3d.htm

Heaven help us. I might see it if I have a chance to do a live MST3K/Rifftrax thing in the theater.

Call me Mr. Stupid, but what is "MST3K/Rifftrax", and will it be in D-BOX?

[TownerFan 4,983]

NO WAY I'm gonna sit again through 2 hours of this garbage in a movie theater. One time was enough.

And it's also in 3D, which I deeply hate!

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I'll go see it. Sounds like fun.

Yeah. I don't know if I can justify spending however much it costs for 3D tickets to see a film I already have on DVD, but I'd like to.

[Ollie 1,059]

I realized we already had a thread and moved these posts to it.

That being said, I'm not wasting any money on any more Lucasfilm movies.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I cannot stand MST3K, have never been able to.

I will take the youngun to see it.

[Uni 306]

***SPEECH ALERT! PROSYLETYZING AHEAD!***

I missed this thread the first time around--though I've bantered enough recently on the topic with some folks here.

As I've read through these posts, I'm reminded of how I felt after seeing TPM in the theaters for the first time: empty. Bemused. Unfulfilled. And--no kidding--a little guilty, like it was something I'd done wrong. That was a Star Wars movie. How could I walk out of a theater feeling so bland and let down after seeing a frocking Star Wars movie? It was an entirely new experience for me.

So I tried again later. I tried as gamely as I could to like it, to overlook its glaring shortcomings, to somehow inflate the good parts so that they covered over all those bad parts. But it just didn't work. The good parts are too few and far between, and the bad parts are too OBVIOUS and close between.

This has been on my mind a lot over the past week or so, for several reasons. For one thing, I read C.S. Lewis's incomparable essay On Stories for the first time in years. As I took it in, I couldn't help but think of the prequel trilogy. The essay is basically his treatise on the different ways we can read fantastical stories--either for characters, the locales, or simply for the story itself. His central point is that the essence of any story is what draws us into it: the feel of the land, the atmosphere, the peculiar dialect of the characters, the absolute distinction between one place and another. Action and suspense, left to their own merits, aren't enough to hold a serious reader's attention. It's the kind of action, the nature of the suspense, that counts.

He uses The Three Musketeers as an example (notice, as I mentioned, the parallels to the prequel trilogy):

"But the fact is that what is considered to be the most 'exciting' novel in the world, The Three Musketeers, makes no appeal to me at all. The total lack of atmosphere repels me. There is no country in the book--save as a storehouse of inns and ambushes. There is no weather. When they cross to London there is no feeling that London differs from Paris. There is not a moment's rest from the 'adventures': one's nose is kept ruthlessly to the grindstone. It all means nothing to me."

That's a pretty good way of deliniating one of the major differences between the OT and the PT. In the former, the different worlds had weight and depth; their characters seemed like an inimitable part of their habitats (Luke on Tatooine, the Stormtroopers on the Death Star, Yoda on Dagobah--even Lando on Bespin). When they went to other worlds where they weren't indigenous (the Rebels on Hoth), the contrast was vivid and stark. All this gave the story a tangible atmosphere.

The prequels, on the other hand, consisted almost entirely of settings that were projected around actors who were never privy to what their supposed surroundings were. They just walked and talked, and sat and talked, and sometimes (yes) engaged in some exciting action sequences . . . but the action alone isn't enough. The movies lacked the sensate, immediate realness of the OT.

In expressing his opinion, of course, Lewis got his own share of sneers from Musketeer fans. This was what he "posted" in response:

"In saying this I am not attempting to criticise The Three Musketeers. I believe on the testimony of others that it is a capital story. I am sure that my own inability to like it is in me a defect and a misfortune. But that misfortune is evidence. If a man sensitive and perhaps over-sensitive to Romance likes least that Romance which is, by common consent, the most 'exciting' of them all, then it follows that 'excitement' is not the only kind of pleasure to be got out of Romance."

And likewise, action isn't all that we want when we go to see a Star Wars film (which is--or should be, and once was--one of the great cinematic Romances of our age).

He used another story to put it another way--and even put a musical spin on it most of you should appreciate:

"Jack the Giant-Killer is not, in essence, simply the story of a clever hero surmounting danger. It is in essence the story of such a hero surmounting danger from giants. It is quite easy to contrive a story in which, though the enemies are of normal size, the odds against Jack are equally great. But it will be quite a different story. The whole quality of the imaginitive response is determined by the fact that the enemies are giants. . . . Turn it into music and you will feel the difference at once. If your villain is a giant your orchestra will proclaim his entrance in one way; if he is any other kind of villain, in another."

It's not enough to say that "the Sith are taking over the galaxy," or that a young Jedi is being lured over to the Dark Side. These events by themselves are no different than any of a thousand other imminent dangers Lucas could've thrown up there. They're meaningless and worthless unless he makes them unique, special, and gives them an atmosphere all their own. Saying evil is bad because . . . uh, well, evil is bad, y'know--it just doesn't cut it.

The other reason all this has been on my mind is because of a project concerning the PT that I've been kicking around for a few days. I may share it in another thread here, though I'm not sure yet how to do it in such a way that'll be the most fun while provoking the least amount of controversy. Suffice to say that I've been thinking hard on what exactly made those three movies what they were. To respond to what Jeff said (as only an arbitrary example, I promise you) last October:

Each has spectacular visuals and state-of-the-art effects. . . .

Yeah, but so what? As GEORGE FREAKING LUCAS HIMSELF said, "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing."

. . . brilliant scores (among my favorites - you may not think they measure up to Williams' best, but you can't deny they have memorable moments). . . .

No I can't deny that. I wonder . . . if it weren't for Williams's brilliance, what, if anything, would be left of these movies?

. . . a certain number of talented actors. . . .

And. . . ? Neither their talent nor their number makes any difference, if this is the result. It hurts worse watching a good actor pull a Raspberry (and, oh, the pain of watching Samuel L. Jackson emasculated).

. . . beautiful costuming and set design. . . .

Costuming, yes. But sets? What sets?

and a compelling story arc (you can argue the story could have been executed better, but I think most people agree there is a lot of potential in the story).

I completely disagree on this one. The "arc" (if it could even be called that) is neither compelling, nor even fraught with potential. It's confusing, pointless window dressing. It exists for the sake of the effects, nothing else. I do believe other directors might've done better with this material; but could anyone have salvaged it completely? I really don't think so. The problem is too inherent in the writing. The story needed a better writer. That's always been the case with Lucas. Star Wars sucked grapes until other people got their hands on it and put everything into it that we love and remember so fondly.

Anyway . . . there it is. Like I said, I've been cogitating on this, hence the speechifying. I've been holding it in too long. I needed an outlet. Sorry it had to be you, y'poor suckers. . . .

- Uni

[Ollie 1,059]

Well said Uni, well said.

And some of us have been saying exactly, or close to, what you have so eloquently posted.

Too much on CGI and emphasis on SFX, no chemistry between the two romantic leads. Bad acting by established veterans, no character makes you feel for them, Anakin's downfall isn't at all interesting or dramatic as one was led to believe.

And I would say after TPM it feels and sounds like Williams, while a professional, lost some of his enthusiasm.

[Datameister 2,043]

Although I am one of those who sees potential in some of the ideas at the core of the PT, I largely agree with your post, Uni. Nicely done.

[Faleel 5,350]

***SPEECH ALERT! PROSYLETYZING AHEAD!***

I completely disagree on this one. The "arc" (if it could even be called that) is neither compelling, nor even fraught with potential. It's confusing, pointless window dressing. It exists for the sake of the effects, nothing else. I do believe other directors might've done better with this material; but could anyone have salvaged it completely? I really don't think so. The problem is too inherent in the writing. The story needed a better writer. That's always been the case with Lucas. Star Wars sucked grapes until other people got their hands on it and put everything into it that we love and remember so fondly.

Anyway . . . there it is. Like I said, I've been cogitating on this, hence the speechifying. I've been holding it in too long. I needed an outlet. Sorry it had to be you, y'poor suckers. . . .

- Uni

though I cannot totally argue with you on this one, there have been fan edits which have done good jobs of changing the story (and some ones i have been following are quite impressive), its hard, but not totally impossible

[Score_Fan 36]

I'll be seeing all six.

[Uni 306]

though I cannot totally argue with you on this one, there have been fan edits which have done good jobs of changing the story (and some ones i have been following are quite impressive), its hard, but not totally impossible

That's exactly what I was saying, though. I don't think anyone could've taken the same story and done much with it; but if you start from scratch and change the story itself (the root of the problem), then I'd have to say that it would not only be "not totally impossible," but actually not that hard at all to come up with better than what Lucas offered.

- Scott

[Red 75]

I might, *might* be seeing the OT. But there's no way I'm paying to see the prequels again.

[Matt C 454]

Call me Mr. Stupid, but what is "MST3K/Rifftrax", and will it be in D-BOX?

It's usually three guys making funny/satirical comments at the movie.

Here's a 'best-of' Rifftrax of The Phantom Menace.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'll see all of them

[Datameister 2,043]

I dunno what I'll do. Realistically, I'll probably end up seeing TPM in theaters if I get a chance, just out of curiosity. If the 3D blows me away (unlikely), I might even go see the other two prequels when they're released. I don't hate the prequels...in fact, I actually had quite a bit of fun when I saw them in theaters, but I'm even more aware of their countless flaws and weaknesses now than I was at the time.

But the original trilogy...if those end up getting released, I know I'll be seeing them. The only one I've seen in theaters is ANH, and that was the special edition in '97. (Sad, I know.) Even if the 3D is less than ideal and Lucas ends up adding even more pointless crap, I'll still see 'em.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

People seeing TPM in 2012 will watch and think "this chick won an Oscar last year??"

[TownerFan 4,983]

Good post, Uni. Very well thought and written.

The artistic/aesthetic failure of the Prequel Trilogy is a flat fact, imho. There are so many wrong things in these movies that it would need a very long post to analyze. I think Red Letter Media's video reviews/analysis hit all the points quite cleverly.

What really I can't stand about Lucas' choices in these movies is that he didn't work further on the scripts and their development. I mean, his scant storyline for the Prequels was known since a few years (remember the prelude in the Star Wars novelization?) and it was the only thing he had. He didn't add anything substantial to it, only a convoluted and contradictory plot.

John Williams is the only one who survived this failure. His scores, while not on the same level of the Original Trilogy, are bounded with so much musical talent and craft that it's almost too much for these movies.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

. . . beautiful costuming and set design. . . .

Costuming, yes. But sets? What sets?

- Uni

TPM has loads.

AOTC and ROTS have not as many, but there also alot of sets and maquettes.

Of course if you hate the movies, you dont usually watch making of docs.

I will be watching all six.

Never seen ROTJ in theaters yet.

[Quintus 5,399]

Uni, cheers for sharing the C.S. Lewis stuff, it was fascinating. Great post.

Anyway, I'll be going nowhere near these 3D versions. I'm sure there'll be far better movies (even 3D ones) to see, at the time. I mean, it wouldn't be difficult.

[Ollie 1,059]

I won't even waste time on the original trilogy since it will be the ruined versions.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

People seeing TPM in 2012 will watch and think "this chick won an Oscar last year??"

[Faleel 5,350]

you do not know, it will be years in the future, perhaps by then Lucas will be dead, or will have seen the errors of his ways and release the OUT......yeah right

[TownerFan 4,983]

The only good thing that could come out of this 3D re-release is that probably we'll see new soundtrack re-releases--but I'm not sure they will be the uber-deluxe editions most of us would like.

[Brónach 1,302]

I never saw a SW film on a theather except TPM (I was seven, and I know I was there because I've been told. I can't rememember any of it).

I'd love to see the trilogy on the big screen, just not in 3D.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I never saw a SW film on a theather except TPM (I was seven, and I know I was there because I've been told. I can't rememember any of it).

Lucky you! You've been saved a huge letdown!

[crocodile 8,017]

I think someone at Lucasfilm took the criticism of their films being falt and one-dimensional a little bit too literally.

Karol

[John Crichton 4]

I think someone at Lucasfilm took the criticism of their films being falt and one-dimensional a little bit too literally.

That's it, Dancing Lock of Death time. Everything summed up perfectly in one sentence.