The Desolation of Smaug SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,372]

Well, I can edit mine and BB's posts if you want me to. Are there really JWFanners seeing this movies that haven't read the book? I honestly don't know.

A classic movie love triangle is the female character caught between her desire for two different men.

A love triangle doesn't have to be that way though. A love triangle can also be A loves B, but B loves C, but C loves A.

This film seems to be both Legolas and Kili have the hots for Tauriel, but she is too busy worrying about the evil encroaching on the world to be much bothered by them.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Well, I can edit mine and BB's posts if you want me to. Are there really JWFanners seeing this movies that haven't read the book? I honestly don't know.

A classic movie love triangle is the female character caught between her desire for two different men.

A love triangle doesn't have to be that way though. A love triangle can also be A loves B, but B loves C, but C loves A.

This film seems to be both Legolas and Kili have the hots for Tauriel, but she is too busy worrying about the evil encroaching on the world to be much bothered by them.

Ah the youthful 600 year old elven naïvete.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well I got my head bitten of last year when i gave spoilers about the outcome of the book....by you among others IIRC.

Its probably better to be careful.

It is an interesting issue though, PJ might decide to have the outcome of the Battle Of Five Armies be different.

[Jay 37,372]

Actually I remember now there are some new members who haven't read The Hobbit yet.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If would be nice sometime late next year to do a speculation thread for those who have read The Hobbit.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Actually I remember now there are some new members who haven't read The Hobbit yet.

Like who? I know SUH is one but he's hardly a newcomer.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It is an interesting issue though, PJ might decide to have the outcome of the Battle Of Five Armies be different.

Haven't you heard? It's going to be the Battle Of Three And One Half Armies.

[mstrox 6,651]

It will be the Battle of One Armies, with Tauriel's and Legolas' factions of wood elves attacking one another. Kili will see heartbreak.

[Bilbo 3,709]

It is an interesting issue though, PJ might decide to have the outcome of the Battle Of Five Armies be different.

Haven't you heard? It's going to be the Battle Of Three And One Half Armies.

Nah, it's Jackson. If there's a change there will be MORE armies.

[mrbellamy 6,288]

Actually I remember now there are some new members who haven't read The Hobbit yet.

Like who? I know SUH is one but he's hardly a newcomer.

I think Jason meant "new member" relative to everyone else. SUH joined this year.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

The Battle of the Eleventy-Five Armies.

[crocodile 8,017]

Actually I remember now there are some new members who haven't read The Hobbit yet.

I haven't read it. And it's probably better not to by now.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

Bilbo dies in the end!

[crocodile 8,017]

So he's only a ghost at the beginning of the Fellowship and the whole birthday party is just a purgoatory-type sequence?

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,017]

But Gandalf hits his head real bad and forgets about it?

Karol

[Jay 37,372]

So I saw the film again yesterday, this time in regular 2D. I went mostly to try to figure out the chronological order of the music, but also to watch the film while being a bit more awake as I was quite tired the first time. I will say I liked the film a little more, but I still think it's an overall mess, switching from great scenes to TERRIBLE scenes on a whim (and quite often).

But anyway, I just wanted to mention my BIGGEST problems with the film.

1. Bard - and apparently everyone in Lake-town - already knowing about the missing scale on Smaug. SUCH a dumb idea. In the book, Bilbo is a hero because he gets Smaug to show him his belly, and he sees the scale, and he gets word down to Lake-town and that is why Bard is able to kill him. In the film, they already all know, so the only thing Bilbo accomplishes by talking to Smaug at all is letting slip "Barrel-rider", which makes Smaug link Thorin to Lake-town and decide to go attack it. Way to go, Bilbo. (I know this happened in the book too, but at least he found out the weakness at the same time...)

2. Smaug being aware of what's going on in the outside world. He apparently knows all about The Necromancer, for some reason.... and apparently knows all about Thorin and his quest. And he even knows that Thorin goes by "Oakenshield" now? Why in the world would Smaug know all this stuff (or care?).

3. The entire Necromancer / Dol Guldur subplot. It just makes no sense. In the book, Bolg attacks Erebor after Smaug is dead for his own reasons (revenge for his father and The Great Goblin, and for the treasure). But in the films, Bolg and Azog work for Sauron. But WHY in the WORLD would Sauron care about Erebor? Surely, if he could get Smaug on his side that would be one thing. But we know he doesn't send the armies out until Smaug is dead. Sauron doesn't desire treasure or anything, and Erebor is not a strategic spot for anything. So why does Sauron care about it? What exactly is he building his army for? Is they are supposed to be mustering to attack Rivendell or Lothlorien or something, that isn't made clear in the film. None of the Dol Guldur subplot is made clear.

4. The Nine and Azog being "resurrected". 2 films in and I still have no idea why PJ did this. It seems like it could ONLY be because Tolkien named him "The Necromancer" is the book. The movies truly would have been exactly the same if Azog had died in Moria and now Bolg was chasing them out of revenge, and if The Nine had never been buried alive and then resurrected and set free, but instead were just the ghosts being called to Dol Guldur like Tolkien wrote. It's all really silly.

5. Gandalf already figures out Sauron is alive at the High Fells, and then goes into Dol Guldur by himself anyway, even telling Radagast to leave and that he KNOWS its a trap. What was he planning on doing, taking on Sauron himself? And then of course he gets captured by Sauron (even though Sauron would most likely just kill him, which you couldn't do in the films), and it seems like a retread of FOTR all over again (Gandalf stuck up high watching the enemy muster below). Him going in by himself and getting captured just feels like padding. Once he knows Sauron is resurrected, why wouldn't he call the White Council right away?

I think that's it. It's these basic, core plot points that just don't seem to be thought out well and hurt everything. Sauron is supposed to be working in secret and never really revealing himself to the world until he has taken back over Moria many years later. It's kinda silly he's mustering this giant army now and that Gandalf is well aware, and then will be kind of surprised again in FOTR when Sauron is up to it again. I dunno.

[MedigoScan 324]

I am assuming there is a reason the movie even made a point to show Bilbo the missing scale, though I dont know how he'd even get that info to Bard in time in a world with no talking birds

[Faleel 5,359]

1: Dragons have magical powers, for instance, some Dragons (Glaurung) can practically brainwash you, it could be he sees things with his mind Palantirically ( )

2: Morgoth liked to capture and torture prisoners, for example Hurin, and that elf friend of Turin, perhaps like Master like Servant?

3: Sauron will not risk the peoples of Middle-earth uniting under one banner.

[MedigoScan 324]

Does killing Gandalf even work?

[Faleel 5,359]

4: Bilbo

got the Arkenstone

and he knows exactly where it is positioned, and its size and width.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

4. The Nine and Azog being "resurrected". 2 films in and I still have no idea why PJ did this. It seems like it could ONLY be because Tolkien named him "The Necromancer" is the book. The movies truly would have been exactly the same if Azog had died in Moria and now Bolg was chasing them out of revenge, and if The Nine had never been buried alive and then resurrected and set free, but instead were just the ghosts being called to Dol Guldur like Tolkien wrote. It's all really silly.

5. Gandalf already figures out Sauron is alive at the High Fells, and then goes into Dol Guldur by himself anyway, even telling Radagast to leave and that he KNOWS its a trap. What was he planning on doing, taking on Sauron himself? And then of course he gets captured by Sauron (even though Sauron would most likely just kill him, which you couldn't do in the films), and it seems like a retread of FOTR all over again (Gandalf stuck up high watching the enemy muster below). Him going in by himself and getting captured just feels like padding. Once he knows Sauron is resurrected, why wouldn't he call the White Council right away?

I think that's it. It's these basic, core plot points that just don't seem to be thought out well and hurt everything. Sauron is supposed to be working in secret and never really revealing himself to the world until he has taken back over Moria many years later. It's kinda silly he's mustering this giant army now and that Gandalf is well aware, and then will be kind of surprised again in FOTR when Sauron is up to it again. I dunno.

I didn't pick up on the idea that the Nine weren't just ghosts/that they were resurrected. Did they actually say that? Since AUJ I just assumed they were somehow imprisoned/entombed as spirits, not literally buried after being "killed."

As for the second point, I thought it was clear that Gandalf knew exactly what would happen, and that the only thing that would convince the Council (Saruman) to act is if something happened to him. Like what he said about "forcing Sauron's hand." He knew Sauron would have to reveal himself if he entered, and then the Council would know what was up.

[crocodile 8,017]

But WHY in the WORLD would Sauron care about Erebor? Surely, if he could get Smaug on his side that would be one thing. But we know he doesn't send the armies out until Smaug is dead. Sauron doesn't desire treasure or anything, and Erebor is not a strategic spot for anything. So why does Sauron care about it? What exactly is he building his army for? Is they are supposed to be mustering to attack Rivendell or Lothlorien or something, that isn't made clear in the film. None of the Dol Guldur subplot is made clear.

It's been apparently mentioned in Unfinished Tales that Gandalf thinks that Sauron might want to use Smaug for his own purpose and that's why he supports Thorin's quest. So I guess they took this part from that.

Karol

[Jay 37,372]

But WHY in the WORLD would Sauron care about Erebor? Surely, if he could get Smaug on his side that would be one thing. But we know he doesn't send the armies out until Smaug is dead. Sauron doesn't desire treasure or anything, and Erebor is not a strategic spot for anything. So why does Sauron care about it? What exactly is he building his army for? Is they are supposed to be mustering to attack Rivendell or Lothlorien or something, that isn't made clear in the film. None of the Dol Guldur subplot is made clear.

It's been apparently mentioned in Unfinished Tales that Gandalf thinks that Sauron might want to use Smaug for his own purpose and that's why he supports Thorin's quest. So I guess they took this part from that.

Karol

Uhhhh, what? Of course Gandalf is worried about Sauron getting Smaug on his side - I not only mentioned that in my post, but it was also mentioned explicity in both AUJ and DOS. That wasn't my point. My point was: WHY would Sauron send Azog and Bolg to Erebor with LEGIONS of orcs AFTER Smaug is dead? Why does Sauron care?

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

I am assuming there is a reason the movie even made a point to show Bilbo the missing scale, though I dont know how he'd even get that info to Bard in time in a world with no talking birds

One reason is to show us the missing scale...

[Jay 37,372]

As for the second point, I thought it was clear that Gandalf knew exactly what would happen, and that the only thing that would convince the Council (Saruman) to act is if something happened to him. Like what he said about "forcing Sauron's hand." He knew Sauron would have to reveal himself if he entered, and then the Council would know what was up.

So you think Gandalf let himself be captured by Sauron so that the White Council would come to his aid? How did he know Sauron wouldn't kill him? I know, he's a maiar, and will be sent back, etc, but could Gandalf 100% count on that?

[crocodile 8,017]

But WHY in the WORLD would Sauron care about Erebor? Surely, if he could get Smaug on his side that would be one thing. But we know he doesn't send the armies out until Smaug is dead. Sauron doesn't desire treasure or anything, and Erebor is not a strategic spot for anything. So why does Sauron care about it? What exactly is he building his army for? Is they are supposed to be mustering to attack Rivendell or Lothlorien or something, that isn't made clear in the film. None of the Dol Guldur subplot is made clear.

It's been apparently mentioned in Unfinished Tales that Gandalf thinks that Sauron might want to use Smaug for his own purpose and that's why he supports Thorin's quest. So I guess they took this part from that.

Karol

Uhhhh, what? Of course Gandalf is worried about Sauron getting Smaug on his side - I not only mentioned that in my post, but it was also mentioned explicity in both AUJ and DOS. That wasn't my point. My point was: WHY would Sauron send Azog and Bolg to Erebor with LEGIONS of orcs AFTER Smaug is dead? Why does Sauron care?

Maybe he doesn't know about that yet?

Karol

[MedigoScan 324]

well he is sending the army right now it seems

not Saurons fault Smaug gets himself killed before his army arrives

but I would like to see what the 3rd movie will say about it

[Faleel 5,359]

Why does Sauron care?

"We have long paid the orcs of Moria, now we must put our thoughts toward the Necromancer!" ~ Thorin Oakenshield

[Jay 37,372]

Ok, so let's pretend Sauron doesn't find out that Smaug is dead. So Sauron's plan is to send LEGIONS of orcs to Erebor just to kill 13 dwarves and a Hobbit? Or was he expecting his orcs would be able to capture Smaug and bring him to him or something?

In LOTR, Sauron wants to take over the world, and carefully plans his battles to attack men at the strategically right points. Tolkien never wrote anywhere that Sauron cared about Erebor or Lake-town, only that Gandalf was concerned Sauron might want to get the dragon on his side.

[MedigoScan 324]

and 2 elves, dont forget them

[crocodile 8,017]

Ok, so let's pretend Sauron doesn't find out that Smaug is dead. So Sauron's plan is to send LEGIONS of orcs to Erebor just to kill 13 dwarves and a Hobbit? Or was he expecting his orcs would be able to capture Smaug and bring him to him or something?

In LOTR, Sauron wants to take over the world, and carefully plans his battles to attack men at the strategically right points. Tolkien never wrote anywhere that Sauron cared about Erebor or Lake-town, only that Gandalf was concerned Sauron might want to get the dragon on his side.

If Tolkien hinted at something, Peter Jackson will give you that 10 times!

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

Uhhhh, what? Of course Gandalf is worried about Sauron getting Smaug on his side - I not only mentioned that in my post, but it was also mentioned explicity in both AUJ and DOS. That wasn't my point. My point was: WHY would Sauron send Azog and Bolg to Erebor with LEGIONS of orcs AFTER Smaug is dead? Why does Sauron care?

Because he obviously doesn't want Erebor to become a stronghold again, drawing the scattered dwarves back to their home. And he doesn't want a dwarven king that can unite all dwarves against him, let alone a rebirth of Dale and Laketown.

A newborn Erebor also means, very practical, gigantic means to build and equip armies.

Plus, this is his first try to cover all of Middle-Earth in a second darkness before LotR, so ruling Middle-Earth includes Erebor anyway.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

As for the second point, I thought it was clear that Gandalf knew exactly what would happen, and that the only thing that would convince the Council (Saruman) to act is if something happened to him. Like what he said about "forcing Sauron's hand." He knew Sauron would have to reveal himself if he entered, and then the Council would know what was up.

So you think Gandalf let himself be captured by Sauron so that the White Council would come to his aid? How did he know Sauron wouldn't kill him? I know, he's a maiar, and will be sent back, etc, but could Gandalf 100% count on that?

He didn't know what Sauron would do to him. The point was just to force his hand, whatever the cost.

Also I don't think it's ever stated that Gandalf is aware he has a "respawn" opportunity. He knows that physical death could come for him at any point. This is no different.

[Jay 37,372]

Uhhhh, what? Of course Gandalf is worried about Sauron getting Smaug on his side - I not only mentioned that in my post, but it was also mentioned explicity in both AUJ and DOS. That wasn't my point. My point was: WHY would Sauron send Azog and Bolg to Erebor with LEGIONS of orcs AFTER Smaug is dead? Why does Sauron care?

Because he obviously doesn't want Erebor to become a stronghold again, drawing the scattered dwarves back to their home. And he doesn't want a dwarven king that can unite all dwarves against him, let alone a rebirth of Dale and Laketown.

A newborn Erebor also means, very practical, gigantic means to build and equip armies.

Plus, this is his first try to cover all of Middle-Earth in a second darkness before LotR, so ruling Middle-Earth includes Erebor anyway.

Hmm OK, that's some good points.

[Faleel 5,359]

So is it as bad as Luke's plan for rescuing Han Solo in ROTJ?

Also:

In The Children of Hurin the dragon Glaurung speaks to Turin by name at first meeting and knows all about his past.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Plus, this is his first try to cover all of Middle-Earth in a second darkness before LotR, so ruling Middle-Earth includes Erebor anyway

What was the first darkness? Morgoth?

[Faleel 5,359]

....Sauron pre-Dagorlad...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

... Oh... Right... Yeah

[KK 3,307]

Evangeline Lily Has One Big Problem with DoS

Turns out the love triangle was a late addition at the pick-up shoots, and at the studio's behest too.....

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Huh. No shit. Would never have thought PJ is still beholden to studio whims like that.

[KK 3,307]

THE HOBBIT 2: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG

Now that I’ve had a couple of nights to sleep on it, I think its high time I shared some of my thoughts on the film. It’s hard to explain it all at once, because ultimately it really is a very frustrating film, perhaps moreso than the first one, and yet I had more fun with this one. I’m not sure exactly how to go about it, so I’m just going to spit out my thoughts of the chronological events of the film off the top of my head.

PROLOGUE: THE QUEST OF EREBOR

We open with a shot of Bree, mostly CG this time (funny how the same location looks much better in a film shot 10 years ago) and with PJ walking across the scene with no real attempt to disguise himself, which made me chuckle (in a good way). I really liked this scene, it was a great way try and bridge the Sauron stuff with the story and probably helped clear some things with the more mainstream masses. Music worked great too. Good start to the film, gave me hope for what’s ahead!

THE HOUSE OF BEORN

I liked how Gandalf’s words segue into Bilbo, showing off his burglar talents. It’s the shot that followed that made me cringe. It was Azog, looking worse than he ever did before, against a very green screened twilight backdrop. Looked like a sequence from a video game. Clearly one of the worst shots in the saga, though I don’t know if this had something to do with the fact that I saw this film in 48 fps. The mountain shots that followed for the title card’s appearance were beautiful (especially in 48 fps) though.

I had no problem with the action-like intro, but a few minutes into it, it became clear things were going too fast. We see glimpses of Beorn in bear form (looked pretty good too) and Gandalf mentioning a house followed by more running against gorgeous New Zealand vistas. That’s all and good, but having arrived at the house, I was hoping we would catch a breather for some good ol’ character introduction/development. Unfortunately that’s not what we got. Beorn comes in, says a few lines and the company is off again, to run against more beautiful NZ plains. It was a very awkward shift…. I know they filmed more Beorn material, but I feel like they should have included that. In all honesty, even he is one of the most iconic parts of the book, I think this film would have benefitted from not including Beorn at all over having him come and go like this.

MIRKWOOD AND SPIDERS

So the company awkwardly arrives at Mirkwood before the audience really ever gets the chance to understand what’s happening, and then Gandalf’s off. It’s done in an abrupt fashion, but I didn’t let my mind dwell on that. The hallucinogenic effects of the forest are well handled here. Though I didn’t like the constant cross-fades, it deprived the sequence of any sense of the journey. Bilbo looking up in the trees was also a well done bit too (although it looked a little strange in 48 fps).

I also liked the spiders. They looked fantastic, and kudos to Jackson for having the idea of hearing their speech only with the ring on. Enjoyable sequence. The elf entry on the other hand was a bit strange, largely because they arrive with no music. Legolas has this kickass entrance but gone is the accompanying “Woodland Realm” statement. Then suddenly Tauriel pops up, and there’s this very abrupt cut of her theme. Which moron was editing the music here?

On a side note, why does Smaug’s theme play in this cue (2:18 in the cue)? I thought there’d be mention of him in the scene or something, but there isn’t.

AZOG AND BOLG

Azog gets called back to Dol Goldur. I was a bit relieved, thinking the chase would ease up (it didn't...) and something interesting would happened, but nope, I got nothing. In fact, all the Dol Goldur stuff looked like a very cheap video game. He comes in, and this strange black Adobe After-Effects hue is playing around the screen. I thought that was one of the dumbest ways to represent Sauron. It’s frustrating too because he comes in a much more appealing black cloud/smoke kind of form later in the film. Seems like a last-minute bit I guess.

Azog then delegates his duties to Bolg, proving once again how interchangeable these characters are, but I didn’t mind, as long as Azog had a definite purpose for staying at Dol Goldur…(spoilers...he didn't)

THE WOODLAND REALM

When I saw the shots of the Woodland Realm in the trailer, it looked overdone and CG dependent and I didn’t like it. But it looked gorgeous on film. Beautiful design, from the wide shots of the kingdom to just the prison sets. Loved seeing this part of Middle-Earth. My big problem with this sequence is that we don’t spend enough time here. It’s very brief, and regrettably so because there are a lot of great elements that could have been put to use here.

We start with Thranduil, who gets this rather bizarre introduction that was made up of a series of cross-fades from his knees, to his fingers to his eyebrows. Way to suck all the mystery and intrigue out of it. It’s strange because Galadriel has the most haunting entrance in FotR, but Thranduil is just tossed aside for the sake of time. Lee Pace is fantastic as Thranduil, but again, he has such a short part. The flamboyant but dangerous Elven King should have had more screen time, perhaps in place of some of Leggy’s bloated stunts.

I actually liked the bit between Tauriel and Kili here. Whatever “romance” people keep talking about, it was very subtle and hardly noticeable in this scene. The talk of starlight and worlds beyond the forest while accompanied by Shore’s beautiful music really brought back that sense of depth that we were familiar with in the original trilogy. I very much liked that moment.

But it’s all too short! We’re immediately on our way to the barrel sequence, and all we got to see was Thorin refuse some sort of deal and some priosn chit-chat. This is one of the most iconic set pieces/locations of the Hobbit. Why is it that Jackson was able to spend time and make Lothlorien such a memorable feature in FotR but incapable of developing the Woodland Realm a bit more before delving into the action….bah!

BARRELS OUT OF BOND

I’ve been told this would be the highlight sequence of the film, and I was very excited for it. And yet I was rather underwhelmed, and not for the reasons you’d think.

Visually, it’s very impressive stuff, and it’s actually a great deal of fun! Bombur gave a bunch of laughs. I had one big issue and one small issue. The big one is the music. Honestly, before you all roll your eyes at me, I don’t think I’m being unreasonable here. I’m not sure how this scene was spotted or anything, but the fact that there are large portions of this scenes that are left with gaping silence. It was the strangest thing, to see this massive action sequence have the most off-kilter pacing. Adrenaline-rushing music would suddenly go on, then go off at random, while orcs, elves and dwarves were jumping about. It also didn’t help that the music was mixed so low. I really felt the music would have been a huge part in helping add energy to scene and without it, I felt underwhelmed. My other quilbble were the POV shots. I don’t understand why these amusement park ride level POV shots are inserted in the middle of PJ’s grand-scale action pieces…it diminishes the spectacle of it all.

BARD AND LAKETOWN

Laketown is great! The film finally gets a chance to breathe and let the audience soak in what makes these Middle-Earth films so great for me, the subtleties of the world that has been created here. In terms of acting, Luke Evans is great as Bard and might be my favourite new addition to the cast. Stephen Fry is also very entertaining. Alfrid’s fleeting role, while not adding much to the storyline, is alright and not intrusive. The real impressive feat here is the set, which is so rich in detail. Thorin’s company’s “cover” forgetting caught was kind of lame though. So what if your weapons aren’t top class, you suck it up and move on with your quest…

GANDALF AND DOL GOLDUR

The High Fells sequence begins with yet another beautiful NZ mountainous backdrop. It’s strange that the music starts like 5 seconds AFTER the scene’s begun though. I liked the design concept of the High Fells (the stairs in the mountains), but overall, it was clear this scene was utterly pointless. Nothing happened.

One of my friends, a fellow LotR and PJ enthusiast/critic, was telling me how dull and boring Gandalf’s storyline is. And he’s right. Nothing happens. He walks into dol Goldur, which continues to look like a level from the 2001 video game version of the Weathertop scene or something and just walks around before getting caught. The funniest thing was how Azog and his orcs were just hiding around. I thought he was called back there to do something! This whole “unveiling spell” business seemed like a very improvised plot. I’m guessing this sequence was altered last minute where they just bullshitted it by having Gandalf walk around stabbing his staff on the floor multiple times while chanting Elvish.

Gandalf and Azog’s confrontation was laughable. I say this because of the video-game level visual effects employed here. How do all the Azog shots continue to look so bad when his son, a design created after his, looks so much better?!

Gandalf and Sauron’s confrontation is almost just as laughable. It started off cool, and I liked the little analogy to the Khazad-dum sequence. But it kept dragging on and on between large magic bubble to small magic bubble. Why does PJ have no sense of pacing with this film?! The Necromancer looks better as a wisp of cloud here, and his transformation into the Great Eye wasn’t bad (although the whole zooming into the pupil effect was repetitive). My only question is now that he’s already an eye here, how does he get to Mordor? I mean does someone carry the eye, or does it just float all the way to Barad-dur?

And out of genuine curiosity, where do you guys think the armies are headed?

ARRIVING AT EREBOR

It was going well if it were not for the fact that it took a bit long to find the entrance. The sense of disappointment/failure to find the door seemed ingenuine and false because the audience knew how inevitable the finding of the door was going to be.

Ken Stott nailed it when they first walked into Erebor by the way. Accompanied by Shore’s poignant “House of Durin” theme, it reminded why Balin shall always be my favourite dwarf in these films. Before I move on to the Smaug stuff, I just thought I’d mention how impressed I was by Erebor in this film. In the prologue of AUJ, it all looked rather amateurish to me in design. But here, the grand halls and sheer scope of the long emptiness of the kingdom blew me away. Well done!

SMAUG

Best. Dragon. Ever. Waited so long to see him, and he did not disappoint at all! Loved his first reveal and was particularly impressed when we finally got to see him in all his enormity. Benedict Cumberbatch beautifully voiced him, but I was most impressed with Martin Freeman, who really got to shine here. His quirky mannerisms really worked here and reminded me of how enjoyable the Gollum scene was last year. Martin Freeman was born to play Bilbo. My only quibble is about how low the music is mixed. On album, I envisioned how effective this creepy and intoxicating (yup, that’s the word) it would be to hear all these ethnic elements in play on screen. But unfortunately, the music is almost entirely drowned by sound effects, negating all the subtleties that I came to appreciate of the music. Pity.

TAURIEL REVEALED

This is where the film’s absurdity shows. A bunch of stuff is happening at Laketown that baffles me. Bard is getting into another chase, the dwarves are scurrying around for Kingsfoil while Legolas is doing more of his choreographed stunts (which were beginning to overstay its welcome). This is where Kili and Tauriel get to cringe-worthy levels. It gets more blatantly “romantic” or at least tries to. The problem with the concept is that we haven’t seen enough of the characters’ development to ever sympathize with them. And the whole Arwen call back was utterly unnecessary…argh. More frustrating was the nonsense that Legolas was up to. Lots of fights, then he runs off after Bolg. Where the hell is HE off to?! How many story threads are we expected to follow now? This is way more complicated that LotR ever was…and it didn’t have to be….

SMAUG VS. THE DWARVES: THE NEVER-ENDING INDY DELETED SCENE

Hey, I didn’t mind it at first. Sure, the premise of 8-ish dwarves (not even the whole company) taking on a massive dragon is pretty stupid, but it could have been fun. And it was fun, for a while…but then it dragged on and on. The dwarves were scurrying around furnaces, melting gold and doing all sorts of nonsense. Why?! To show off more of the dragon? And apparently that whole sequence was filmed in the pick-up shots in order to create more of a climax for the second film. I understand that to some degree, but it ran for far too long. I don’t understand why less time couldn’t have been spent here and more time at Mirkwood!

Oh and there was this particular shot of Smaug rolling around that looked absolutely AWFUL, like one of the unfinished pre-vis CG composites you see the “making of” films….good grief. Oh well…

I thought Smaug’s exit was beautiful, with the glittering gold and Shore’s eerie choral music. About the music cutting off for the cliffhanger ending, I didn’t actually mind it. I’d like someone to try putting the rest of the music there to see if it works better though, just out of curiosity.

VERDICT:

It’s a messy film, more so than the last one. Where AUJ is too slow, DoS’ first half is too fast and the second half is all over the place. And yet, I could not help but come out of there with a smile. I enjoyed it a lot probably because of :

1) Smaug. That last half hour with the dragon alone is worth the ticket price.

2) Expansion of Middle-Earth. While it may not all work when judging it as a film, seeing all these new locations from Tolkien’s imagination brought to life is a real treat. The level of detail that went into some of these sets and designs are a pleasure to watch and made the film all the more engaging.

Ultimately, this film’s haphazard pacing/narrative issues does not bode well for what direction PJ’s career may be taking the future. The frustrating thing about this film is how it seems like PJ filmed a bunch of great scenes and just cut them up and put them together, because there isn’t any real narrative flow here. No sense of completeness. And I guess you could chalk this up under “middle-chapter syndrome”, but if he could do it in The Two Towers, I expected him to be able to pull it off here, but he didn’t.

But guess what? If I were to re-watch one of the Hobbit films, I’d pick this one over the first in a heartbeat. While it may be the more flawed work, there's just a lot more to take in and enjoy. I also think this film will benefit more from an extended edition. Regrettably though, it’s sad to see these films descend from the grand scale epics to the turn-your-brain-off-for-fun kind of films. Hopefully PJ will finally find his footing with the conclusion to the trilogy

So that was some of my thoughts of the film. Sorry for the rambling, I know it’ll be hard to follow, but granted I didn’t have the chance to really contribute to this thread since I saw the film last week, I thought I’d just spew it all out in one go…good luck trying to read that. I’m guessing only a few of you will even try (I’m counting on you BB and Inky!).

I’ll be seeing this film again on Wednesday in 24fps this time, and I’m hoping to have even more fun.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I have to say I thought Azog looked really, really good in this, a lot better than AUJ.

And as for Dol Guldur sequences resembling 2001-era video game graphics - really? Because again, I just don't see it. Maybe it's because I saw it in 2D.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I imagine they'll put the entire Thrain arc in the EE, flashbacks and Dol Guldur. The Gandalf storyline really needs fleshing out. This and a longer High Fells sequence (I'm pretty sure the soundtrack suggests this was a fair bit longer, and the scene desperately needs some kind of pay-off) should help, along with something at Beorn's house (perhaps Beorn's flashback will tie in to this, given it surely involves Bolg/Azog and Dol Guldur). Also, there was that pic from the calendar of Gandalf and Beorn together with a forest behind them.

Martin Freeman confirmed to Empire that a true Beorn introduction mirroring the books was filmed. It plays out just as I suspected. In the morning, when Bilbo wakes, he actually goes out tentatively with Gandalf to find Beorn chopping wood (really hope we get the 'Never heard of him' line here). Then Gandalf slowly talks about the Dwarves and more emerge from the house piecemeal, a sort of reverse of the book but no doubt in the same spirit. Really, really hope we get this in the EE, more Beorn and character sequences especially in the opening third would help the film no end.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wait, were they putting Gandalf meeting Thrain in the "present time" of the film? Meaning he fights the Dwarf and then faces Sauron?

[Barnald 365]

Wait, were they putting Gandalf meeting Thrain in the "present time" of the film? Meaning he fights the Dwarf and then faces Sauron?

They have to. He can't have been to Dol Guldur before, it wouldn't make sense given Radagast's revelations are new to him. I'm guessing in the prologue they'll add in flashbacks showing what happened to Thrain before he disappeared and how Gandalf got the map and key. Then we'll see exactly what befell Thrain later on when Gandalf finds him.

I had wondered if they might have Thrain show Gandalf a way out of Dol Guldur in TABA, say if he's thrown into the dungeons.