Star Wars is better than everything

[Schilkeman 964]

Rewatching Episodes III and IV the other day, I was struck by the contrast between them, in a good way.

 

I mean, you get through Sith, which is massive and world-shifting in it's consequence, and in true chiastic fashion, the climax of the series. Everything that could happen, happens in that movie. It's jam packed, and ends in such a way that I can't wait to see what happens next, and then I put on IV, and it's like, "I know all that other shit happened, but let's spend 20 minutes with he droids." It feels like it's fucking with me.

 

We take the opening of that movie for granted now, but it really is strange and daring stuff, even more so in context. It was the most bizarre experience I've had watching those two back to back, which I've done many times, because they work well together, but it hit me different this time.

[Tallguy 3,402]

The only thing that I think works at all watching in episode order is the "reintroduction" of Obi-Wan. There is enough similarity between the depictions of the character that it finally feels like a reunion of sorts.

 

I wonder how much of Williams' intro was driven by "Ladies and gentlemen, An Actor You've Actually Heard Of!" 

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

let's spend 20 minutes with the droids

I guess that was the influence of Kurosawa's 'The Hidden Fortress'? I only saw it once decades ago and don't remember much, but I think we similarly follow these two lowly characters around in the opening scenes?

 

Yeah, it sticks out as a bold choice now when watched sequentially, but at the same time, Lucas has designated C-3PO and R2-D2 as our unofficial guides throughout the saga, so it works on that level.

[Tallguy 3,402]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Yeah, it sticks out as a bold choice now when watched sequentially

 

I'm not even sure how to respond to that. If you're saying how the rest of the films moved away from the droids as POV characters and moving the last films to the front underscores that this is the only place that it happened... OK...

 

But if you're saying that this is somehow a planned effect, then we get into "Lucas didn't plan a damn thing."

 

I suppose one could say that Lucas (at the time) leaned into what might have been an odd choice by taking the scenes with Luke out of the first act of the film. (OTOH, I'm not sure he had a choice. They don't work.)

 

I still have never seen a Kurosawa film. I suppose I should fix that. Some Kurosawa film, The Conversation, The Best Years of Our Lives. 2024 goal!

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

6 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

If you're saying how the rest of the films moved away from the droids as POV characters and moving the last films to the front underscores that this is the only place that it happened... OK...

I'm going with this one.

 

7 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I suppose one could say that Lucas (at the time) leaned into what might have been an odd choice by taking the scenes with Luke out of the first act of the film. (OTOH, I'm not sure he had a choice. They don't work.)

I have a soft spot for Luke's talk with Biggs. It would've made their reunion on Yavin resonate better. But I guess Lucas didn't know where to fit it.

 

On the other hand, he felt it necessary to wedge that useless Jabba scene in that ruined the pacing, and made him look like a complete wuss that literally let Han step on him...but I digress.

[rough cut 1,714]

Did you guys see this fan edit of the re-inserted Jabba scene?

 

 

[mstrox 6,651]

I think besides the creature CGI, the Jabba scene, and the Han/Greedo scene, the SW SE was an overall improvement.  I like everything that was done for ESB except the weird Luke scream.  The musical number in ROJ is foul, but I think otherwise the SE changes I can remember are pretty good.

[Tallguy 3,402]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I'm going with this one.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I have a soft spot for Luke's talk with Biggs. It would've made their reunion on Yavin resonate better. But I guess Lucas didn't know where to fit it.

 

Having grown up with the comic and the novel (and then the radio play) I agree. It's beneficial to the narrative but not to the film.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

On the other hand, he felt it necessary to wedge that useless Jabba scene in that ruined the pacing, and made him look like a complete wuss that literally let Han step on him...but I digress.

 

They went with what they had. I guess. It was originally a smart editorial jump that moves all of Jabba's exposition to Greedo, saves the introduction of the Falcon to be more of a moment, and keeps Jabba a "shadowy figure". The change in the SE was a tech demo that Lucas smartly got us all to pay for.

 

If he was insisting on re-including the Jabba scene He SHOULD have re-cut Greedo's scene accordingly. But since the entire point of Greedo then becomes to show that Han has dangerous people trying to kill him but Han is a wily customer who gets the drop of Greedo and shoots him, then the whole "Greedo shoots first" becomes even more nonsensical.

 

1 minute ago, mstrox said:

I think besides the creature CGI, the Jabba scene, and the Han/Greedo scene, the SW SE was an overall improvement.  I like everything that was done for ESB except the weird Luke scream.  The musical number in ROJ is foul, but I think otherwise the SE changes I can remember are pretty good.

 

"Bring my Star Destroyer!" Ergh.

 

Perhaps I'm being precious, but it's not the movie. I'm sure someone could fix the terrible model work in Casablanca. They could even make it look like it was filmed in 1942. But it wouldn't be the movie.

 

Of all of the SE most of the Death Star battle is an improvement and usually doesn't take you out of the film. (Except for the signature shot of the X-wings flying past. It screams mid-1990's.) But it isn't Star Wars. Oh and the Mos Eisley intro is terrible.

 

But this isn't a new argument and nobody is going to change anyone's minds.

[mstrox 6,651]

10 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

“Bring my Star Destroyer!”

Okay, two problems with ESB - the Luke scream and the weird Vader additions at the end!

[Chen G. 3,950]

I do like certain things about the Special Edition: certainly, Lucas' attempts to "open up" the world of the films is often quite succesfull: the new wideshot of Ben's hovel, to a lesser extent the entrance to Mos Eisley, CERTAINLY the windows in Cloud City (they're all over McQuarrie's artwork) and the victory celebration montage in Return of the Jedi.

 

The Jabba scene I could do without (although Marcia, who wanted to keep it in, does have a good point in that Han's entrance in the shot is pretty good), although I find the way they cut around it in the original edit to be a little klutzy.

 

And, in the original Star Wars, there's some attempt to tone down what little violence there is in the film: its in getting Greedo to shoot at Han, but its also in other, little things: Lucas didn't like that a couple of imperial officers, who unlike the Troppers have their faces visible, are shot dead on-camera, so in some (but not all) of the shots he decided to snipe out a few frames that show the last blast hit them.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

6 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

They went with what they had.

Well it totally undermined the effect of that impressive first shot of Jabba in ROTJ, who looked like a badass you wouldn't dare cross.

 

12 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

"Bring my Star Destroyer!" Ergh.

Much preferred Vader growling "Bring my shuttle", as he stalks out of Cloud City angry at losing the Emperor's prize, to the clunky "Alert the Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival".

 

 

 

 

 

[Tallguy 3,402]

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

CERTAINLY the windows in Cloud City (they're all over McQuarrie's artwork)

 

This is arguably the most justified revision. I don't think it's entirely successful, but there is zero doubt from everything going into the film that this kind of look was the original intention.

 

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

and the victory celebration montage in Return of the Jedi.

 

Fairly hard pass. Perhaps I just need to take it more figuratively than literally. But even if I don't think it makes narrative sense it also has a very 90's feel to it that takes me out of the film.

 

5 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Much preferred Vader growling "Bring my shuttle", as he stalks out of Cloud City angry at losing the Emperor's prize, to the clunky "Alert the Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival".

 

He's SO PISSED. It's pretty much the only emotion Vader shows in the film. It stood out.

 

I've said this before but I saw an Empire live to projection concert. And of course they used the SE. The only thing worse than the edits to both the picture and the music that they did to make Vader's laborious journey to his Star Destroyer fit was having to hear an orchestra play them live. The original combination of Losing a Hand and Hyperspace are a master's class in building tension and momentum. And they took safety scissors to the whole thing.

[Chen G. 3,950]

6 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

This is arguably the most justified revision. I

 

That and, for the DVD release, changing that...thing into Ian McDiarmid.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

6 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

That and, for the DVD release, changing that...thing into Ian McDiarmid.

 

What?

[mstrox 6,651]

I think the most justified revision in the whole series is fixing the horrible snow monster.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

17 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

But even if I don't think it makes narrative sense it also has a very 90's feel to it that takes me out of the film.

Is it due to the allegedly Yanni-sounding new music? lol

 

I personally loved it the moment I heard it. It was celebratory, but had a wistful quality to it that felt like nostalgia to me. I knew in 1997 that in twenty year's time I'd feel bittersweetly nostalgic about it.

 

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

That and, for the DVD release, changing that...thing into Ian McDiarmid.

 

Apparently they superimposed a chimpanzee's eyes? That's what I heard...

[mstrox 6,651]

I liked the original emperor hologram - it was evocative!  One of those neat things that was lost for the sake of Canon.

[Chen G. 3,950]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Apparently they superimposed a chimpanzee's eyes?

 

Yes.

 

Clearly, the already had the idea of the decrepit-looking Emperor (at this point, due to malevolence rather than blunt trauma) already.

[Schilkeman 964]

He put the Jabba scene back in to create resonance with Episodes I and VI.
 

A number of narrative choices get made throughout the series, but especially the prequels, to create symmetry with their corresponding episodes, sometimes to the seeming detriment of the characters, such as removing the Padme/Anakin scenes in AotC. They would have helped flesh out the relationship, but ruined the symmetry with Han and Leia in Empire. 
 

The Jabba scene serves a redundant narrative purpose, but lines up with where we see him in Episode I. His appearance in Jedi actually lines up with Boss Nass, but the IV to VI connection is one of the many “minor” resonances that show up in the films. (Also connected to Poggle the Lesser in AotC, but I digress)
 

I range from “I don’t mind” to “this is genuinely better” as far as the changes go. Some people don’t like the mix of cg and practical, but that’s what the prequels are full of. He knew what he was doing trying to tie the visuals together. As all the films age, I find they blend nicely.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

The SE's, especially Star Wars, are an abomination. Almost all the changes are awful. I get the rationale for updating the Emperor, and while that's not as offensive as some other the changes, it's a slippery slope because the same rationale leads to things like swapping out ghost Anakin in ROTJ.

 

The only thing I actually liked in the SE's were the added windows to Cloud City. It really opened up the space, and you'd expect windows in a city in the clouds. They didn't look out of place. Don't get me wrong, I'd still just rather have the original film, but that's the one change I didn't mind.

 

Otherwise...nothing. I get why they'd do the kind of technical things, like clean up the matte lines (though I'd have preferred they even leave well enough alone on that), but other than doing a first class restoration and new transfer, obviously the OT deserves to be released in its original form, in the highest quality possible on the most current format.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Clearly, the already had the idea of the decrepit-looking Emperor (at this point, due to malevolence rather than blunt trauma) already.

The original Emperor, and I hate to say it cuz I've been a fan of Rick Baker's makeup effects work since I was a kid experimenting with liquid latex and grease paint, is a pretty weak effort. Nick Dudman's work in ROTJ on the other hand is perfection, which they had a hard time replicating in the prequel.

[Chen G. 3,950]

8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

bviously the OT deserves to be released in its original form, in the highest quality possible on the most current format.

 

Oh, I agree! I think the film should be released in the form in which an audience will have first laid eyes on it. There were some (fairly minor, but not insignificant) changes implemented into the film within weeks of its release, and I think those should be taken out, too. Same with Empire, by the way: as first released, the film was missing a few shots that are now in the film.

 

To be fair, there are lots of films from the 70s going back that we don't REALLY have the original cut of: Lawrence of Arabia comes to mind. They didn't think in terms of "historical" preservation at the time.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

7 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The SE's, especially Star Wars, are an abomination.

The enhancements to the dogfighting over the Death Star were good I thought, and I love when Wedge saves Luke's (and by extension, the galaxy's) bacon.

[Chen G. 3,950]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

which they had a hard time replicating in the prequel.

 

Its not clear to me that they tried: first, because the nature of the Emperor's appearance changed from becoming consumed by his own malevolence (which was still the idea as late as Episode II: ever noticed how sickly McDiarmid looks in that film?) to the exertion of fighting Windu (as originally shot for Episode III) to the lightning being bounced into his face, as in the finished piece. And they definitely wanted the prequel Emperor to be more nightmarish.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Oh, I agree! I think the film should be released in the form in which an audience will have first laid eyes on it. There were some (fairly minor, but not insignificant) changes implemented into the film within weeks of its release, and I think those should be taken out, too.

Same with Empire, by the way: as first released, the film was missing a few shots that are now in the film.

 

Yeah, it's true there is no "original" version of Star Wars. As I'm sure everyone here knows, 1977 audiences might have heard a different sound mix, including different dialogue, depending on where you lived and which cinema you saw it in. So just pick one "version" from 1977, 1980 and 1983 and give us that.

 

And to be clear, I have no issue with George Lucas or Disney making all the tweaks they wish to Star Wars. Same with Peter Jackson and The Lord of the Rings for that matter. Give us a new cut with new scenes and update all the effects, I'd love to see it Peter! But the originals should always be available in the same quality and format.

[Chen G. 3,950]

2 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

As I'm sure everyone here know, 1977 audiences might have heard a different sound mix,

 

Also slightly different visual touches: the original composite for the skies above Yavin was quite different (and honestly better), and the flashes in the laser shootouts in space were less overpowering.

 

In The Empire Strikes Back, off the top of my head, some frames were missing from Luke's recovery early on in the film, and the establishing shots for the final scene were absent.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its not clear to me that they tried

My complaint is more that in the prequel it looked like an actor covered with prosthetics.

[Chen G. 3,950]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

it looked like an actor covered with prosthetics.

 

Well, because we've seen McDiarmid without it just prior in the film, so we can really tell that his head got larger. Whereas, realistically, if lightning-bolts were carving up your face, they would etch down on it, not make bigger!

 

Although I always felt you could chalk some of that up to swelling.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

Here's the thing with all these "imperfections" in the OT...they're supposed to look like that! These films were made in 77/80/83 after all! Maybe the Emperor doesn't look quite right, so what? Should we go back and change the aeroplane flying over the airport in Casablanca because it looks fake? Let's replace 1933 King Kong with a CGI ape while we're at it.

 

Star Wars deserves the same amount of respect. Before it was the cultural monster it is now, it was a film, and a pretty important and influential one. It should be treated as such.

[Tallguy 3,402]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Is it due to the allegedly Yanni-sounding new music? lol

 

I personally loved it the moment I heard it. It was celebratory, but had a wistful quality to it that felt like nostalgia to me. I knew in 1997 that in twenty year's time I'd feel bittersweetly nostalgic about it.

 

No, just visually. If anything when I hear the music I hear Silvestri's Quick and the Dead.

 

As for the Emperor: I might have a different opinion if the Emperor in the SESE of Empire looked like the Emperor in Jedi. He doesn't. And I don't think McDiarmid's performance is very good. AND they tried to shoehorn in "THIS is when Vader found out!" into the new dialogue.

 

But it also doesn't fit with any of Kershner's film making. On that count I feel the same way about the Wampa. It just doesn't feel the same and Empire has a VERY specific look.

 

4 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

My complaint is more that in the prequel it looked like an actor covered with prosthetics.

 

Yeah, I hated the whole "Hey! Let's EXPLAIN why the Emperor looks this way!" AND he looks terrible.

1 minute ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Should we go back and change the aeroplane flying over the airport in Casablanca because it looks fake?

 

Well...

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

Perhaps I'm being precious, but it's not the movie. I'm sure someone could fix the terrible model work in Casablanca. They could even make it look like it was filmed in 1942. But it wouldn't be the movie.

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

7 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

But it also doesn't fit with any of Kershner's film making. On that count I feel the same way about the Wampa. It just doesn't feel the same and Empire has a VERY specific look.

 

 

On that account, I do appreciate that Kershner was notified and indeed approved of some of the special edition changes: he wanted windows in Cloud City, and I remember reading an interview where he clearly approved of the addition.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

On that account, I do appreciate that Kershner was notified and indeed approved of some of the special edition changes: he wanted windows in Cloud City, and I remember reading an interview where he clearly approved of the addition.

Cloud City without windows did indeed feel claustrophobic and like a set on a soundstage. The rotoscoping was kinda rough when they're running outside instead of in a hallway, but it works okay.

[Chen G. 3,950]

I'm less taken with the extended sequence following the Cloud car around the cityscapes. Comes out of nowhere.

 

The original shot, which was an establishing shot of the city with a cloud car zooming right past camera, while it looked a little phony, was more interesting, frankly.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I'm less taken with the extended sequence following the Cloud car around the cityscapes. Comes out of nowhere.

It was just eye candy.

[Tom Guernsey 2,287]

Definitely my most disliked change is the ESB "bring me my shuttle" edit which adds nothing but totally ruins the flow of the original edit and, most egregiously, the music, which is wedded to that whole extended sequence as perfectly as any in the history of film.

 

I don't mind the changed ending to Jedi, although Victory Celebration always reminded me of Road to Mandalay by Robbie Williams - not even joking. I think the similarity is fairly tangential almost certainly entirely coincidental, but now I can't un-hear it. My main issue with it, aside from it sounding even less compatible with the original score than the Ewok Celebration (neither of them are really connected to the rest of the score in any meaningful way) is that JW didn't write it to blend seamlessly with the end credits. Sure, Ewok Celebration has a sudden key shift, but it kinda works in a sudden, dramatic tonal shift kinda way. Victory Celebration just has a break and the credits start. JW is too good a composer not to have been able to write the new piece into the existing opening to the credits so it's baffling to me that he didn't.

 

Although as I've said before, the best finale/credits blend is the original, without the brass fanfare blasts that started from Empire onwards.

[Schilkeman 964]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It was just eye candy.

Pushes up glasses - It’s meant to be “reminiscent” of Coruscant. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

2 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

Pushes up glasses - It’s meant to be “reminiscent” of Coruscant. 

Let's ask George...or the next best thing: Chen. 

[Brando 1,864]

2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Victory Celebration just has a break and the credits start.

That's just how the SE album presents it, since the original opening to Jedi's End Credits couldn't be found in time for the album, so here you're listening to the first 6ish seconds of Empires Credits.

[Faleel 5,360]

4 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The SE's, especially Star Wars, are an abomination. Almost all the changes are awful. I get the rationale for updating the Emperor, and while that's not as offensive as some other the changes, it's a slippery slope because the same rationale leads to things like swapping out ghost Anakin in ROTJ.

 

The only thing I actually liked in the SE's were the added windows to Cloud City. It really opened up the space, and you'd expect windows in a city in the clouds. They didn't look out of place. Don't get me wrong, I'd still just rather have the original film, but that's the one change I didn't mind.

 

Otherwise...nothing. I get why they'd do the kind of technical things, like clean up the matte lines (though I'd have preferred they even leave well enough alone on that), but other than doing a first class restoration and new transfer, obviously the OT deserves to be released in its original form, in the highest quality possible on the most current format.

Ahat about the restored imperial march variations, and the Han and Leia theme for Leia's reaction to Slave 1 taking off?

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

.

 

Although as I've said before, the best finale/credits blend is the original, without the brass fanfare blasts that started from Empire onwards.

Which is actually a insert/revision.

 

The original has never been released, though someone heard it over the phone from MM.

[Edmilson 7,473]

When I started listening to film scores and it came the time to delve into JW's Star Wars music, I chose the most complete (or at least what I thought were complete) versions available, so the SEs for all three Original Trilogy movies and then the Ultimate Edition for TPM. For AOTC and ROTS I had to stick to the OSTs... Until I discovered the bootlegged fan versions online.

 

To this day, these are the versions I chose to listen to whenever I feel like listening to Star Wars.

[Tallguy 3,402]

22 minutes ago, Presto said:

The original has never been released, though someone heard it over the phone from MM.

 

The original Empire finale you mean?

[Faleel 5,360]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

The original Empire finale you mean?

No! The original 1977 Star Wars "Throne Room and Finale"!

 

Take a look at the 97 SE cue recording list and you will see they recorded a revised crossover!

[Tallguy 3,402]

6 minutes ago, Presto said:

No! The original 1977 Star Wars "Throne Room and Finale"!

 

Take a look at the 97 SE cue recording list and you will see they recorded a revised crossover!

 

Oh! While I am certainly curious we have the one from the film, yes?

 

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Although as I've said before, the best finale/credits blend is the original, without the brass fanfare blasts that started from Empire onwards.

 

I've never noticed that before, though I was no doubt "aware" of it. That's my favorite as well. I just never knew why. Although I've always been disappointed that the other seven films didn't have end titles as varied (and as good) as Empire. Heck, listening to the Star Wars end titles and Princess Leia's theme back to back I'm so glad he didn't just track the concert suite into the end titles as would be his tradition from Jedi onward.

[Faleel 5,360]

4 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 I'm so glad he didn't just track the concert suite into the end titles as would be his tradition from Jedi onward.

Other way round usually.

 

Duel of the Fates was 7m3 End Credit

 

 

[Gabriel Bezerra 303]

Since we are on the subject of "Finale and Credits", I kinda find it weird that since Revenge of the Sith, every movie except Solo had the Force Theme/Binary Sunset/R2 Lost build up. Even the Clone Wars movie... Though most of them had a legit reason for doing so.

[Tallguy 3,402]

22 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Since we are on the subject of "Finale and Credits", I kinda find it weird that since Revenge of the Sith, every movie except Solo had the Force Theme/Binary Sunset/R2 Lost build up. Even the Clone Wars movie... Though most of them had a legit reason for doing so.

 

I think for the three sequels that might have been JW's unifying idea. Maybe? Although the two JJ movies are the most similar, rather than just being the theme, yes?  (Playing it back just now I have to say I love the ending with Broom Boy.) And Rogue One is more of a call out to Obi-Wan and the setting of the theme in Imperial Attack rather than the sunset.

 

Actually all of the OT end with wildly different variations on the theme as well, at least as a jumping off point. Obviously the throne room. Then it's the intro to Luke getting his new hand. And I'm counting Funeral Pyre as it's the last "not Ewok" music we hear.

[greenturnedblue 372]

5 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Playing it back just now I have to say I love the ending with Broom Boy

To each their own, personally by the end of TLJ I am just sick of the force them. I would have preferred if the film ended with a solemn hopeful statement of march of the resistance

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

6 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Oh! While I am certainly curious we have the one from the film, yes?

 

 

[Schilkeman 964]

10 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Let's ask George...or the next best thing: Chen. 

Why on Earth would I do that? I've done my homework, too. 

[Faleel 5,360]

3 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

 

I have to say I think your edit was incorrect, we have the revised crossover insert clean ending and openings from the Radio Drama, and I think you left some of it in.