Star Trek is better than everything

[Andy 4,128]

I think “you Klingon bastards” was excellent, elevated by excellent direction, editing to the other crew reactions, and the cold silence of the scene with no score.  Kirk falling over into his chair is exactly what anyone would do. 
 

 Now I … have had … enough of youuuuu!

 

That was hammy.  But good hammy. 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

Horner started his movie with the fanfare (which became the template for most of the rest of the films, including all of the subsequent films by Goldsmith) and used it throughout. He really does make it sound like just one of his own themes, doesn't he?

Yes he absolutely does.  The way he goes back and forth weaving between his own themes and the Courage fanfare is natural and organic.  Like the quote in “Kirk in the Space Shuttle “ as Sulu mentions how he’s delighted to be on the Enterprise again.  He also uses it to great effect in “Kirk Takes Command” and at the end of “Chekov Lies” as a transition to the turbo lift scene with Kirk and Saavik. 

[Tallguy 3,389]

  

34 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Hum... How did this happen?

 

I don't know how, but it was part of the Trek III LP when it was released in 1984. IIRC it was an LP sized single with a single side. Weird.

 

10 minutes ago, Andy said:

I think “you Klingon bastards” was excellent, elevated by excellent direction, editing to the other crew reactions, and the cold silence of the scene with no score.  Kirk falling over into his chair is exactly what anyone would do. 
 

 Now I … have had … enough of youuuuu!

 

That was hammy.  But good hammy. 

 

It's funny how Shatner's performances land. "Khaaaaaaaan" didn't get it's reputation for being silly and over the top until it was on video. In The Motion Picture after the transporter accident Kirk says "Oh my god." Which was just a line of dialog in 1979. But after decades of The Legend of Shatner people thought it was funny somehow and it was taken out of the director's edition.

 

I've always thought "I have had enough of you" was appropriate and in character for the scene.

 

"You Klingon bastards" always felt more awkward than tragic to me for 39 years. He just doesn't pull off the emotion, to me, which makes it slightly comic. It's the repetition that I don't think sells it. Yes, the crew reaction is terrific. As is playing it with no score. When he barely pulls it together a moment later it has all of the emotion but it's more believable. I'm not saying Kirk wouldn't have lost it, but I don't think Shatner was quite up to it. Too bad, because he is SOOOO GOOD in the rest of the film. The mind meld scene kills me every time.

 

12 minutes ago, Andy said:

 The way he goes back and forth weaving between his own themes and the Courage fanfare is natural and organic.  Like the quote in “Kirk in the Space Shuttle “ as Sulu mentions how he’s delighted to be on the Enterprise again.  He also uses it to great effect in “Kirk Takes Command” and at the end of “Chekov Lies” as a transition to the turbo lift scene with Kirk and Saavik. 

 

You just nailed why it works so well. He never plays it as "Ladies and gentlemen it's our very special guest star THE STAR TREK THEME!". He can use it for punctuation just like he would any of his own music. It can actually be both front and center as well as understated.

 

OTOH that opening statement of the theme was one of the most thrilling moments in a theater in my life. 1) We hadn't heard since the original series and 2) it's not the big happy statement that it is anyplace else. It's haunting. It sounds legendary. (Yes, I realize he used almost the same effect in the opening of Battle Beyond the Stars. It's hard to do legendary with music you had never heard before.) It almost sounds dangerous.

 

As delighted as I was with the straight up joy of the trumpet  in The Voyage Home opening, nothing will ever top that theme at the top of The Wrath of Khan.

[Andy 4,128]

I also love the shot of Scotty and McCoy trying to console Kirk in his chair from behind. 
 

and then “I swear to you were not finished yet. “. Good stuff. 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

2 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

I agree with you, they really do work wonders as one big score, and III utilizes Courage's theme more than any other movie so far, I and II kinda set my expectations to only hearing it two or three times.

I'm clearly the only person who never really thinks of them as one long score, but that's just fine! TWOK is just so much busier and more densely written - the intricacy in the orchestral writing, especially in the action music, compared to TSFS - is absolutely breathtaking at times. Battle in the Mutara Nebula onwards is very different to the style of scoring he employed for Stealing the Enterprise, for example. Plus you have the key difference of the antagonist music, the change from Khan to the Klingons (even if they are somewhat both related to the danger motif).

 

Of course, they are both terrific scores but TWOK wins for me every time, I just love its ridiculous bravura. I mean those gushing strings at around a minute into Battle in the Mutara Nebula are more or less apropos of nothing, but it's an absolutely terrific moment. The way he bounces between the various musical ideas in TWOK is almost JW or Jerry levels of skill, it's quite astonishing.

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Horner was the only composer who didn't seem embarrassed by Courage. Goldsmith signed on with the agreement that he wouldn't have to use Courage's theme and only after a last minute agreement between JG and Robert Wise was it included as underscore to the captain's logs. (Written by Courage himself.) Horner started his movie with the fanfare (which became the template for most of the rest of the films, including all of the subsequent films by Goldsmith) and used it throughout. He really does make it sound like just one of his own themes, doesn't he?

It's funny that Jerry was so opposed to any use of the TV theme, especially as he and Courage were colleagues (and I think friends?). While we're on the subject to idle speculation, I wonder whether Jerry just didn't think to re-imagine the Courage fanfare as a grand, trombone/horn led affair - like he did for TFF onwards - and was fixated on the rather more skittish version used in the TV show and the bongos and soprano main theme itself. Also, it may not have occurred to him that he could just quote the fanfare. Dare I say it, maybe he heard what James Horner did with it - basically turning the Courage fanfare into the opening of a Mahler symphony (Symphony No 1 to be precise) and realising that it could be reshaped into a striking opening that could quite neatly segue into his own TMP theme.

 

Having said that all, Dennis McCarthy technically got their first when he arranged the TMP theme for TNG. In fact, until I wrote that, it never occurred to me that TNG was the first time the Courage fanfare was used as a prelude to the TMP theme (being 2 years before TFF).

 

4 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Rosenman did the best job with the main theme though. There is an alternate main title to IV that uses Courage's main theme. It sounds like a great idea (and it kind of is) but his recording is so limp and has zero oomph. Since he did such a great job with the theme when the Enterprise A is introduced I have a theory (with no basis in fact) that he flubbed it so that he would get to open with his own theme. (Which Nimoy let him do.)

 

I love the music to IV. This is not a popular opinion.

Have to agree that Rosenman's take on the original Courage theme for the opening titles doesn't work at all, the accompaniment just plods along behind it so there's zero momentum. Perhaps if he'd arranged it more like his own main title, with overlapping, bell like trumpets, it could have worked well. It doesn't seem beyond of the realms of possibility that Rosenman did a deliberately uninspired take which made his seem much more exciting. Giacchino's version is a bit overdone, but at least it's pretty exciting and makes you realise how much the 60s style and arrangement, while fun, takes a bit away from what a grand adventure theme it could actually be. However, I totally agree that Rosenman did a great job incorporating the original theme into the Enterprise A reveal at the end.

[Jay 37,364]

5 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I'm clearly the only person who never really thinks of them as one long score, but that's just fine! TWOK is just so much busier and more densely written - the intricacy in the orchestral writing, especially in the action music, compared to TSFS - is absolutely breathtaking at times. Battle in the Mutara Nebula onwards is very different to the style of scoring he employed for Stealing the Enterprise, for example. Plus you have the key difference of the antagonist music, the change from Khan to the Klingons (even if they are somewhat both related to the danger motif).

 

Of course, they are both terrific scores but TWOK wins for me every time, I just love its ridiculous bravura. I mean those gushing strings at around a minute into Battle in the Mutara Nebula are more or less apropos of nothing, but it's an absolutely terrific moment. The way he bounces between the various musical ideas in TWOK is almost JW or Jerry levels of skill, it's quite astonishing.

 

I'm right here with you buddy!  I completely agree with all this!

[Pellaeon 593]

Yeah, I have to admit I find the Horner scores distractingly cinematic, and prefer the Rosenman score qua Star Trek score.

[Andy 4,128]

48 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I'm clearly the only person who never really thinks of them as one long score, but that's just fine! TWOK is just so much busier and more densely written - the intricacy in the orchestral writing, especially in the action music, compared to TSFS - is absolutely breathtaking at times. Battle in the Mutara Nebula onwards is very different to the style of scoring he employed for Stealing the Enterprise, for example. Plus you have the key difference of the antagonist music, the change from Khan to the Klingons (even if they are somewhat both related to the danger motif).

 

Of course, they are both terrific scores but TWOK wins for me every time, I just love its ridiculous bravura. I mean those gushing strings at around a minute into Battle in the Mutara Nebula are more or less apropos of nothing, but it's an absolutely terrific moment. The way he bounces between the various musical ideas in TWOK is almost JW or Jerry levels of skill, it's quite astonishing.

 

YES!  God, Sha Ka Ree, and Kahless, YES!! 🖖🏻 

[Tallguy 3,389]

17 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

Yeah, I have to admit I find the Horner scores distractingly cinematic, and prefer the Rosenman score qua Star Trek score.

 

That's a collection of words I have never heard in that order. "Distractingly cinematic"? Fair, I suppose. I just never thought that a downside. It's certainly not too big for the films.

 

But yes, for all the vitriol Rosenman's score gets (I may have mentioned before I think that this is 90% because of Hospital Chase) it is the score that sounds the most like an episode of TOS.

 

 

[Andy 4,128]

Yep. His horn clusters you hear for the probe scenes and time travel sound much like Alexander Courage’s brass for the barrier in Where No Man Has Gone Before. 

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

Just saw V... what a weird movie.

 

Questions:

• Is II the only movie with a functional Enterprise?
• Is the barrier the same as that episode of The Animated Series that pseudo-Lucifer came from?
• Was the Klingon language created for TNG and they just use it here?
• What's up with Scotty and Uhura?

 

That last one was more of a surprise than a real question, cute couple. This movie brought a lot from The Original Series, including my favorite (read as sarcasm), the "Edens". But at least in TOS, the Edens actually looked like an Eden and not the same place the Gorn fight took place... And I thought religion was no more in the 23rd century...

 

Anyways, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were the main characters and their banter was great, once again it's a delight to watch the cast play these characters and every time they are onscreen it's good. Goldsmith is back, and so is his Klingon theme, which I noticed in TMP and thought it was very catchy, happy he brought it back, his theme for "God" reminded me of Horner's TSFS, for some reason and hearing "Raid on Paradise" my mind went straight to "The Huns Attack" from Mulan...

 

It's a weird movie.

 

Kirk: "I lost a brother too"

Me: ...Oh yeah...

Kirk: "but I got him back"

Me: OH NO! Poor Sam.

 

Final question... Should I watch Generations before TNG or after? Should I even watch it?

[Tallguy 3,389]

25 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Is II the only movie with a functional Enterprise?

 

No. But it's crewed by cadets.

 

25 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Is the barrier the same as that episode of The Animated Series that pseudo-Lucifer came from?

 

You gave it more thought than they did.

 

26 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Was the Klingon language created for TNG and they just use it here?

 

Sort of created in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. (By James Doohan.) Created as we know it for The Search for Spock by Marc Okrand.

 

28 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

What's up with Scotty and Uhura?

 

They're friendly.

 

28 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

And I thought religion was no more in the 23rd century...

 

No no. That's a TNG thing.

 

29 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

It's a weird movie.

 

Aye.

 

34 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Goldsmith is back, and so is his Klingon theme, which I noticed in TMP and thought it was very catchy, happy he brought it back, his theme for "God" reminded me of Horner's TSFS, for some reason and hearing "Raid on Paradise" my mind went straight to "The Huns Attack" from Mulan...

 

It is a very Goldsmith score. Which is great. It's just not in the same league as The Motion Picture. But neither is the film. The Mountain is delightful.

 

I knew too many people who, in 1989, were upset that the original cast movies were now using the Next Generation theme. Oy. It's much worse now.

 

29 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Me: OH NO! Poor Sam.

 

Right?

 

30 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Final question... Should I watch Generations before TNG or after? Should I even watch it?

 

Very much after. If you're serious enough, there are seven seasons of TNG. Whatever value Generations has (I like it) it won't be as an intro to the TNG cast. If you're not that into it I'm sure someone has an "Essential TNG episodes" list.

 

I'd kind of recommend getting through some seasons of Deep Space Nine before First Contact. But that's OK because DS9 is awesome. It's as good / bad as anything all the way through but the last three or four seasons are arguably as good as Star Trek has ever gotten.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

15 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

That's a collection of words I have never heard in that order. "Distractingly cinematic"? Fair, I suppose. I just never thought that a downside. It's certainly not too big for the films.

 

But yes, for all the vitriol Rosenman's score gets (I may have mentioned before I think that this is 90% because of Hospital Chase) it is the score that sounds the most like an episode of TOS.

Personally I don't think I'd call Horner's music any more cinematic than Roseman's, the main theme is very bracing and the secondary theme (the 6/8 one) is romantic (in a the classical music sense) and pretty sweeping. I think his score has got better notices since the expansion even if there's still quite a few who hold a grudge because James Horner didn't score it. I've always liked, and for my money, the fun action cues are perfectly fine in context. It is the most light hearted of the original movies and a couple of breezy action cues don't distract too much. Rosenman hits the dramatic beats very effectively elsewhere.

 

11 hours ago, Tallguy said:

It is a very Goldsmith score. Which is great. It's just not in the same league as The Motion Picture. But neither is the film. The Mountain is delightful.

As a kid I always loved TFF, indeed I even loved the effects, but now realise how janky they are. I always loved Jerry's score and, after the 1999 expansion of TMP (which I still have as a playlist created from the 3CD LLL expansion, I always thought it was a terrific programme), was probably the Star Trek movie score I wanted expanded the most. The Mountain is indeed a wonderful intro* but it has some of Jerry's best 80s/90s action music, one of his best combinations of synths with the orchestra and the quasi-religious music for the finale is perhaps the best example of Jerry scoring the movie the filmmakers intended to make but didn't have the budget for. I've said it before, but the thing his later scores often lack (and the Giacchino scores almost entirely lack) is the awe and wonder/romance of space travel/exploration sound that the original 6 movie scores have in spades. TFF might not have achieved its ambitions, but Jerry scored it as though it did (without it sounding like it doesn't fit). I never really understood why the plot of TFF was disowned - sure the movie may not be great, but a madman trying to find god on an alien world could easily have been an episode of TOS!

 

*It follows my favourite rendition of the TMP theme, even if the horns and other brass are all oddly mixed the same side - sorry if that now becomes a thing can't not hear! I always miss the synth whoosh that is used during the segue from the Courage fanfare to the TMP theme in later recordings, it always feels like something is missing. I'm hoping that Omni will publish the score sometime as I'm curious as to the differences between this and the TMP version of the main theme, they are definitely slightly different. I always like (dare I say, prefer?!) the way he segues out of the TMP theme in the later version too, those unexpected harmonic changes tell you things are about to change.

 

11 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I knew too many people who, in 1989, were upset that the original cast movies were now using the Next Generation theme. Oy. It's much worse now.

A friend of mine commented that he didn't like how slow the TMP theme was in cues like The Enterprise or other more low key quotes of it. I guess when you're used to it at TNG speed it might seem oddly slow, but those gentle renditions are great. The cello version at the end of Let's Get Out of Here from TFF is wonderful (now playing!).

 

11 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Very much after. If you're serious enough, there are seven seasons of TNG. Whatever value Generations has (I like it) it won't be as an intro to the TNG cast. If you're not that into it I'm sure someone has an "Essential TNG episodes" list.

 

I'd kind of recommend getting through some seasons of Deep Space Nine before First Contact. But that's OK because DS9 is awesome. It's as good / bad as anything all the way through but the last three or four seasons are arguably as good as Star Trek has ever gotten.

Definitely agreed with Generations after TNG. TNG is a great show and well worth watching and there are plenty of "essential" episode lists, although if you start at season 3, you can't go far wrong. Generations was a missed opportunity, with some good ideas badly executed and some bad ideas (not to mention gaping plot holes) that scupper things. Having said that, Dennis McCarthy's score is actually pretty great, the main theme is perhaps a bit basic, but the action music is decent and his more wistful material is gorgeous. The sad music near the end (won't spoil it just in case!) and the finale cue are particularly lovely.

 

I endorse watching DS9 though, a superb show, especially once it got going, again in the 3rd (but definitely 4th) seasons. Great Dennis McCarthy main theme too. First Contact is well worth a watch and Jerry's First Contact theme is probably the best thing he wrote after TFF.

 

[Giftheck 916]

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

I can't hear Rosenman's Star Trek IV without hearing his Lord of the Rings.

 

[Giftheck 916]

I've seen the exact same kind of criticism levied at James Horner.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

It's not really a criticism. I quite like The Lord of the Rings score. Well, most of it. The Main Theme is very good, and much of it pleasantly melodic. But some of the action bits are a bit, well, discordant & jarring. Same for Trek IV.

[Tallguy 3,389]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

It follows my favourite rendition of the TMP theme

 

 

I might have to agree with you. First off, Jerry caves in and starts with Courage just like Horner did. (How often did Goldsmith copy Horner, eh?) But then he throws in the BUM BUM! from Star Trek: The Motion Picture to kind of "bridge" the two openings. Which I always loved. It felt like a nod to the "forgotten" (or at least hated) movie that I adore. The "zoom" crescendo is better here, more concise, than the other five times it's used (including Picard). This was the only time this arrangement opened a movie. I love that that TMP DNA (other than, you know, the whole THEME) carried through all the way to the present.

 

The trumpet hits that end the first statement of the main theme (at around 0:45 or so) are so cool. They're kind of taken from the back half of all his end credits suites. They're more pronounced in this opening than anywhere else and are the main reason this version might be the winner for me.

 

I go back and forth on the extended ending. He used it for all the TNG movies. They even used it in Picard.

 

Definite contenders: Star Trek: The Motion Picture, main title. It's SO sleek. There's a section that I don't have the musical vocabulary to describe it as bars or a phrase or whatever but it's at 0:25 above. It's so perfect in TMP. I gather it's a really hard thing to play because I've even heard professional orchestras screw it up. On recordings no less. The orchestra just gets all of sync for those five notes or so.

 

Also, TMP End Titles. There's a staccato feeling that Jerry gave the theme in his end credits arrangements but TMP had the most OOMPH. With just a sprinkling of synth. I know a lot of people who think it's just a rehash of the main titles but they're really very distinct.

 

5 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

 

 

Well, that's just lovely.

 

I got to hear this suite live a few years ago:

 

The Phoenix Symphony did a Star Wars vs. Star Trek night. (Star Wars won. Whatevs.) Among the highlights were this suite, Horner's Wrath of Khan end titles (rapturous) and the end titles of Insurrection. I don't think I ever appreciated Jerry's Ba'ku theme as much as I did that night.

 

8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I can't hear Rosenman's Star Trek IV without hearing his Lord of the Rings.

 

 

It's got one phrase (that rising thing in the middle) otherwise they're way different. For one think LotR sounds closer to a WWII British march.

 

7 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

I've seen the exact same kind of criticism levied at James Horner.

 

Yeah, Krull and Battle Beyond the Stars (or as we call it, Battle Beyond the Wrath of Krull) sound closer. But The Voyage Home and Lord of the Rings have a really distinctive hook.

 

Just now, Nick1Ø66 said:

It's not really a criticism. I quite like The Lord of the Rings score. Well, most of it. The Main Theme is very good, and much of it pleasantly melodic. But some of the action bits are a bit, well, discordant & jarring. Same for Trek IV.

 

Discordant was one of his THINGS.

 

Arrgh! I'm posting this before anyone else replies!

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

3 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Discordant was one of his THINGS.

 

Well, yeah. It's one reason the Rosenman scores in my collection are composed entirely of the two I've mentioned!  

 

Again, I like both scores. But in general his style really isn't my thing.

[Tallguy 3,389]

Oh, if anyone can fill in actual musical terms for the gobbledygook I posted above that would be shiny.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

Well, this is it, I just saw VI.

 

Found it weird that the movie dedicated to Gene didn't open with the fanfare, after watching the whole thing I got it that it was probably to set the mood. Starting out like a run-of-the-mill "Kirk doesn't like diplomats/diplomacy and Klingons" then bam! Murder mystery. A very well-done murder mystery at that, though I was suspicious of the new Vulcan when Kirk's recording got out on trial. The prison hijinks and the investigation aboard the Enterprise were great, the very similar "Kirk fights himself" was a nice throwback, and the mystery resolution was excellent. Klingons and the Federation working together to keep the Federation and Klingons from working together...

 

Racism. I don't really know if Klingons were the best ones to do an allegory with racism. However, that aspect of it went away quickly focusing more on the prejudice, that I thought was gone because the last movie ended with Kirk inside a Klingon ship with Spock. They were just fine (they spent an entire film inside a Klingon ship), but it was well done for the most part so it is excused.

 

I teared up a bit seeing them go into the sun(set?) and signing off their names, I have no idea how it could have a better ending, a great movie, and a great farewell.

 

Once again, I want more, but I know I shouldn't.

[Andy 4,128]

That sign-off ending gets me in the feels every time.   No one can say that was a disappointing end to the original Crew’s voyages. 

[Pellaeon 593]

Gotta love it!

 

 

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

On 23/05/2023 at 2:49 PM, Tallguy said:

I might have to agree with you. First off, Jerry caves in and starts with Courage just like Horner did. (How often did Goldsmith copy Horner, eh?) But then he throws in the BUM BUM! from Star Trek: The Motion Picture to kind of "bridge" the two openings. Which I always loved. It felt like a nod to the "forgotten" (or at least hated) movie that I adore. The "zoom" crescendo is better here, more concise, than the other five times it's used (including Picard). This was the only time this arrangement opened a movie. I love that that TMP DNA (other than, you know, the whole THEME) carried through all the way to the present.

 

The trumpet hits that end the first statement of the main theme (at around 0:45 or so) are so cool. They're kind of taken from the back half of all his end credits suites. They're more pronounced in this opening than anywhere else and are the main reason this version might be the winner for me.

 

I go back and forth on the extended ending. He used it for all the TNG movies. They even used it in Picard.

 

Definite contenders: Star Trek: The Motion Picture, main title. It's SO sleek. There's a section that I don't have the musical vocabulary to describe it as bars or a phrase or whatever but it's at 0:25 above. It's so perfect in TMP. I gather it's a really hard thing to play because I've even heard professional orchestras screw it up. On recordings no less. The orchestra just gets all of sync for those five notes or so.

 

Also, TMP End Titles. There's a staccato feeling that Jerry gave the theme in his end credits arrangements but TMP had the most OOMPH. With just a sprinkling of synth. I know a lot of people who think it's just a rehash of the main titles but they're really very distinct.

Didn't get round to replying before I went away so going back a bit... have to admit that I hadn't really thought about Jerry combining the Courage fanfare with those two notes from the TMP version, which works really well. I think the zoom crescendo works better for TFF because he has that synth noise, whereas the others just have a kind of pause where the synth was meant to go over the top and nobody else* has added in any kind of synth whoosh so it always feels a bit like the music has stalled in a way that it doesn't for TFF as the whoosh covers the join.

 

*The exception being John Mauceri on The Sound of Hollywood, although he does a more subdued version of the Courage fanfare for some reason, although he has a version of that Klingon synth horn layered in

 

It hadn't occurred to me that it's the only time that version of the TMP themes opens a movie. Tonally it feels much more appropriate a way to open TFF than TMP (I feel I'm alone in this view, but I'll repeat it anyway!). TFF is a big, fun(ish) action movie, whereas TMP... isn't. Opening TMP with an ominous threnody based on the V'Ger material before dissolving into the Klingon Battle would be so much more appropriate. Then there's the opportunity to build up to the full statements of the TMP theme for The Enterprise and Leaving Drydock rather than blowing your load (as it were) from the outset. However, the performances for the opening and end credits of TMP are indeed terrific and yes, are distinctive as noted.

 

Of course Star Wars won... it's more popular, but I have to admit that the Star Trek movie scores still give me goosebumps in a way that the Star Wars scores don't quite do any more. I could listen to A Tall Ship from TFF over and over, it's like a mini version of The Enterprise. According to iTunes I've listened to it 121 times. So far. The second most played thing in my library after I Am the Doctor... 123 plays.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

Finally got round to reading through the Omni score for TWOK from end to end listening along to the remastered album:

 

• I expect the brass section had nightmares about all those sextuplet fanfares and the strings the large number of string runs preceded by fairly significant leaps. There's also a large number of woodwind passages that appear to leave almost no space for breathing... The trumpet writing seems quite high at times, I'm pretty sure the high notes are ones that Sibelius (the software!) would mark with a red as being out of range. Maybe the capabilities of the average Hollywood trumpeter are beyond what is typically expected in a standard symphony orchestra where brass plays a slightly smaller role.
• The full score makes you appreciate even more than Mahler meets Prokofiev antecedents, although one thing I'd never noticed before was how much Captain Terrell's Death owes to the trash compactor music from Star Wars. The grinding brass figures are very similar.
• It makes you notice how many of the suspenseful Ceti Alpha V and Regula One cues are based on a bass line of pizzicato cellos and basses - obvious in hindsight but when you see it written down, you realise how often he relies on this device. One he used in countless scores after of course.
• There is a brief, unrecorded cue, The Reliant, early on, which I assume is basically a flyby stinger type cue. I will have to do a mock up in Sibelius sometime.
• The amount of synth work to provide atmosphere is quite surprising at times, but it's very effective and interesting to see how some of it has been notated - ranging from actual notation, to general guidance.
• A lot of the arpeggio piano figures are more or less inaudible, I expect it wouldn't have made a huge difference had they been omitted at certain points. Surprising given that there are two pianos in many of the louder passages!
• Much though the latest re-release is a significant improvement in sound, part of me still hankers for a new recording, just to hear some of the detail in the orchestration that a fresh recording could show up.

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 

• I expect the brass section had nightmares about all those sextuplet fanfares and the strings the large number of string runs preceded by fairly significant leaps. There's also a large number of woodwind passages that appear to leave almost no space for breathing... The trumpet writing seems quite high at times, I'm pretty sure the high notes are ones that Sibelius (the software!) would mark with a red as being out of range. Maybe the capabilities of the average Hollywood trumpeter are beyond what is typically expected in a standard symphony orchestra where brass plays a slightly smaller role.

 

I don't have the Omni, but BOY OH BOY DO I FEEL THIS when just listening to the score.

 

I don't even play an instument and I still feel sorry for some of the things they had to do in Battle in the Mutara Nebula.  And for that matter, in Stealing The Enterprise as well!

[Giftheck 916]

Jonathan Frakes has reiterated interest in directing the next Star Trek film.

[Bespin 8,482]

Now that I have a decent collection of Star Trek film scores, I can finally create some compilations!

 

I recently discovered a fantastic best-of album released by the Milan Label, and I managed to replicate it using the remastered OSTs.

 

Are there any other remarkable Star Trek compilations that I can recreate in a similar fashion?

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

4 hours ago, Bespin said:

Now that I have a decent collection of Star Trek film scores, I can finally create some compilations!

 

I recently discovered a fantastic best-of album released by the Milan Label, and I managed to replicate it using the remastered OSTs.

 

Are there any other remarkable Star Trek compilations that I can recreate in a similar fashion?

Ah, the Astral Symphony... I always used to love the idea of that album but never bought it, but clearly will have to iTunes it as you have! Wasn't this the one curated by Cliff Eidelman or am I totally imagining that!?

 

My favourite re-recorded Star Trek compilation is Symphonic Star Trek conducted by Erich Kunzel (https://www.soundtrackcollector.com/title/9178/Symphonic+Star+Trek), although you'd need to carefully listen to recreate the suite from The Menagerie and there's a longer version of the TOS theme which I assume was arranged by Kunzel or one of his regular arrangers.

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

4 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

My favourite re-recorded Star Trek compilation is Symphonic Star Trek conducted by Erich Kunzel (https://www.soundtrackcollector.com/title/9178/Symphonic+Star+Trek), although you'd need to carefully listen to recreate the suite from The Menagerie and there's a longer version of the TOS theme which I assume was arranged by Kunzel or one of his regular arrangers.

 

Too bad that album is ruined by sound effects overlapping with music.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

14 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Too bad that album is ruined by sound effects overlapping with music.

I think the sound effects don't overlap that much, most are discreet tracks (I deleted them from iTunes so had totally forgotten about them) but yeah, the obsession with stupid sound effects on those albums was quite frustrating as the performances and recording are otherwise great.

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

1 minute ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I think the sound effects don't overlap that much, most are discreet tracks (I deleted them from iTunes so had totally forgotten about them) but yeah, the obsession with stupid sound effects on those albums was quite frustrating as the performances and recording are otherwise great.

 

Unfortunately, many of the sound effects continue into the beginning of the next track.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Unfortunately, many of the sound effects continue into the beginning of the next track.

I'll have to give it a re-listen but either way, could definitely have done without them!

[Bespin 8,482]

One day they'll reissue these recordings without the sounds... I hope!

[Tallguy 3,389]

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Ah, the Astral Symphony... I always used to love the idea of that album but never bought it, but clearly will have to iTunes it as you have! Wasn't this the one curated by Cliff Eidelman or am I totally imagining that!?

 

My favourite re-recorded Star Trek compilation is Symphonic Star Trek conducted by Erich Kunzel (https://www.soundtrackcollector.com/title/9178/Symphonic+Star+Trek), although you'd need to carefully listen to recreate the suite from The Menagerie and there's a longer version of the TOS theme which I assume was arranged by Kunzel or one of his regular arrangers.

 

I THINK you're right about Eidelman. 

 

The Menagerie suite is interesting in it's own right. I think it premiered shortly before the GNP album of The Cage / Where No Man Has Gone Before. 

 

The Original Series Theme was arranged by Alexander Courage and I think it was on Out of This World with the Boston Pops (some jazz guy conducting) first. 

[Pellaeon 593]

I believe the Menagerie Suite was also arranged by Courage.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

8 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 I think it was on Out of This World with the Boston Pops (some jazz guy conducting) first. 

He's a comer.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

10 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

I THINK you're right about Eidelman. 

I mean, it's from the period between TFF and TUC so either Eidelman did it in conjunction with getting the gig to score TUC or it's an entire coincidence. Then again, it would be weird to have prepared an album like that if you were about to score a Star Trek film and not want to include a bit of your own music on it. Still, looking forward to giving the playlist a listen. Brave to end on some Rosenman rather than Jerry or James Horner!

 

10 hours ago, Tallguy said:

The Menagerie suite is interesting in it's own right. I think it premiered shortly before the GNP album of The Cage / Where No Man Has Gone Before. 

I was going to say, The Cage was the pilot and The Menagerie was the episode that reused a lot of footage from The Cage. Given that there's no music labelled as being from The Menagerie on the FSM Star Trek set, I assume all the music used in The Menagerie is taken from The Cage or is library music. Does make it a bit odd that Telarc credit it as "Suite - The Menagerie (Original TV Pilot)".

 

10 hours ago, Tallguy said:

The Original Series Theme was arranged by Alexander Courage and I think it was on Out of This World with the Boston Pops (some jazz guy conducting) first. 

Ah cool, it's a fun arrangement! I don't have all of the Boston Pops albums so haven't heard that version.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 I don't have all of the Boston Pops albums so haven't heard that version.

 

It's easily available, on YouTube.

[Giftheck 916]

Ah, yes, I have that version as part of the 1997 "No. 1 Sci-Fi Album". It's weird knowing that recording was conducted by John Williams, and yet he's never been asked into the franchise proper. I'd love to have heard a John Williams Star Trek score. Now, it's too late. 😭

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Oh, I don't know.

Isn't STAR TREK: THE NEW ONE going to be made, soon?

[Giftheck 916]

By the time they actually make this film, he might actually be retired for real. 😭

 

On a serious note, we all know Giacchino will get the gig. He's probably after Jerry Goldsmith's top position as composer for the most Star Trek film scores.

[Tallguy 3,389]

4 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I was going to say, The Cage was the pilot and The Menagerie was the episode that reused a lot of footage from The Cage. Given that there's no music labelled as being from The Menagerie on the FSM Star Trek set, I assume all the music used in The Menagerie is taken from The Cage or is library music. Does make it a bit odd that Telarc credit it as "Suite - The Menagerie (Original TV Pilot)".

 

If I'm remembering my history right, the actual title of the pilot episode was The Menagerie. It was later called The Cage to distinguish it from, well, the TV two parter called The Menagerie.

 

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but it blows my mind that for nearly 20 years there were no official Star Trek music releases. Or even re-recordings. The first GNP record came out in 1985 (I didn't get it until 1986 - weird). The SECOND was 1992!

 

Time Warp was, I believe, the first recording of The Menagerie suite and that was in 1984.

 

4 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I mean, it's from the period between TFF and TUC so either Eidelman did it in conjunction with getting the gig to score TUC or it's an entire coincidence. Then again, it would be weird to have prepared an album like that if you were about to score a Star Trek film and not want to include a bit of your own music on it. Still, looking forward to giving the playlist a listen. Brave to end on some Rosenman rather than Jerry or James Horner!

On Discogs it says Cliff Eidelman - Compilation Producer. This would have been almost the same time as VI (the 25th anniversary of Star Trek). I think slightly before the film.

 

I'm sure that at the time it was because 1) VI wasn't out yet and 2) it had a whole CD all to itself.

 

I never listened to this since I already had all the albums. But ending with VI is a solid choice. The ending of III and IV are the only quotes of the Courage theme that were on CD at the time. And III was already well represented. III is the only opening titles on the disc and it's not an opening theme the way the other four films are. Interesting. Also neither of Goldsmith's openings are discrete. They're both (as Goldsmith almost ALWAYS does) part of the opening scene of the film, which is why they probably aren't on the disc. (Also, if you have to choose the opening titles or The Enterprise, well that's a no brainer.)

 

1 hour ago, Giftheck said:

Ah, yes, I have that version as part of the 1997 "No. 1 Sci-Fi Album". It's weird knowing that recording was conducted by John Williams, and yet he's never been asked into the franchise proper. I'd love to have heard a John Williams Star Trek score. Now, it's too late. 😭

 

All kudos to The Maestro, but he would never have written The Motion Picture. It would have been interesting, but I'm more than happy with what we got.

 

1 hour ago, Giftheck said:

On a serious note, we all know Giacchino will get the gig. He's probably after Jerry Goldsmith's top position as composer for the most Star Trek film scores.

 

If it's the final Kelvin film I can't see why it wouldn't be G.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

41 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

If I'm remembering my history right, the actual title of the pilot episode was The Menagerie. It was later called The Cage to distinguish it from, well, the TV two parter called The Menagerie.

Aha, that makes sense. I don't know why I didn't know they both have the same title originally - my head is clearly already too full of random Trek trivia!

 

41 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but it blows my mind that for nearly 20 years there were no official Star Trek music releases. Or even re-recordings. The first GNP record came out in 1985 (I didn't get it until 1986 - weird). The SECOND was 1992!

 

Time Warp was, I believe, the first recording of The Menagerie suite and that was in 1984.

Interesting, although I'm sure plenty of 60s TV shows with great music didn't have anything released from them until years later. When I was first collecting, I always struggled with the TOS scores which I had on those GNP compilations, they were either a bit melodramatic or a bit silly. I did get the FSM set and have enjoyed much of it greatly, although perhaps some of my original feelings still linger slightly. I guess the original 6 movies are what define Star Trek music for me, grand and romantic adventures. And Leonard Rosenman ;-)

 

41 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

On Discogs it says Cliff Eidelman - Compilation Producer. This would have been almost the same time as VI (the 25th anniversary of Star Trek). I think slightly before the film.

 

I'm sure that at the time it was because 1) VI wasn't out yet and 2) it had a whole CD all to itself.

 

I never listened to this since I already had all the albums. But ending with VI is a solid choice. The ending of III and IV are the only quotes of the Courage theme that were on CD at the time. And III was already well represented. III is the only opening titles on the disc and it's not an opening theme the way the other four films are. Interesting. Also neither of Goldsmith's openings are discrete. They're both (as Goldsmith almost ALWAYS does) part of the opening scene of the film, which is why they probably aren't on the disc. (Also, if you have to choose the opening titles or The Enterprise, well that's a no brainer.)

Maybe he was hired at that point to do TIC and they asked him to curate the album or something?! I never bought the album as I said, but I'm looking forward to my recreated playlist version (just needed to be careful to pick the right versions which would be from the original soundtracks rather than alternates or the unedited film versions).

 

Surely whether the opening titles segues straight into the scene is more a factor of the film than the composer? I mean, TWOK opening scene is unscored, TSFS sort of combines the opening scene with the credits as a prologue and TUC is immediately followed by the Praxis explosion. It's only because the opening scenes with V'Ger and the rock climbing sequence are scored is why they segue from the opening titles music. Either way, I am actually surprised The Astral Symphony doesn't start with The Mountain (i.e. the opening titles) from TFF rather than the end credits since it rather leaves the tone open than the more finite ending of the end credits.

 

If you're not going with either of the Jerry end credits, I'd probably have gone for TWOK as the last track, but that score is also well covered elsewhere. I certainly have no issue ending with TVH, but I'm sure those less predisposed to Rosenman's score would be less keen on the choice, although I would perhaps have gone for Rosenman's opening title as the opening track and moved the end credits from TFF as the finale.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

All kudos to The Maestro, but he would never have written The Motion Picture. It would have been interesting, but I'm more than happy with what we got.

 

Definitely need a parallel worlds simulator, but I actually don't think anyone would have written a better score for TMP, even JW.

 

And yeah, almost certain that MG would score a forth Kelvin movie... hopefully it'll be better than the last three (films and scores) but I'm not holding my breath.

[Tallguy 3,389]

47 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Maybe he was hired at that point to do TIC and they asked him to curate the album or something?! I never bought the album as I said, but I'm looking forward to my recreated playlist version (just needed to be careful to pick the right versions which would be from the original soundtracks rather than alternates or the unedited film versions).

 

Kind of mind blowing when you think on it. Can you imagine any of the other composers being given such a task? I suppose Horner was almost as new as Eidelman was when Horner was hired for TWOK. But still.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

11 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

Kind of mind blowing when you think on it. Can you imagine any of the other composers being given such a task? I suppose Horner was almost as new as Eidelman was when Horner was hired for TWOK. But still.

Agreed, it's somewhere between a surprising responsibility and a bit odd to be fair! Maybe during the interview process he expressed such enthusiasm and knowledge of the earlier scores that they thought he'd be ideal for the job. I think Eidelman would have been a little younger than James Horner was when he did TWOK and Horner had a more significant back catalogue when he got the gig. People forget that in contrast, JW was well into his 40s when he did Star Wars and Jerry was almost 50 when he did TMP!

[Giftheck 916]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

All kudos to The Maestro, but he would never have written The Motion Picture. It would have been interesting, but I'm more than happy with what we got.

 

I wasn't explicitly thinking of The Motion Picture when I said that 😂

 

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

And yeah, almost certain that MG would score a forth Kelvin movie... hopefully it'll be better than the last three (films and scores) but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Whereas I think that Beyond might be his best score, not just his best Trek score. Certainly runs rings around some of his other stuff from 2016.

[Tallguy 3,389]

4 hours ago, Tallguy said:

III is the only opening titles on the disc and it's not an opening theme the way the other four films are. Interesting. Also neither of Goldsmith's openings are discrete. They're both (as Goldsmith almost ALWAYS does) part of the opening scene of the film, which is why they probably aren't on the disc. (Also, if you have to choose the opening titles or The Enterprise, well that's a no brainer.)

 

Nobody called me on this and I'm grateful. Life is a Dream is the freaking end titles of V. It opens with Courage and it's the WHOLE Star Trek: The Motion Picture theme complete with the Klingon theme in the middle. As the good Admiral once said "I must be getting senile."

 

Oy.

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

23 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Nobody called me on this and I'm grateful. Life is a Dream is the freaking end titles of V. It opens with Courage and it's the WHOLE Star Trek: The Motion Picture theme complete with the Klingon theme in the middle. As the good Admiral once said "I must be getting senile."

 

Oy.

Correct... although I don't think anyone especially noticed had you not confessed ;-)

 

Gave The Astral Symphony sequence a listen today and enjoyed it. Unlike a re-recorded compilation and given the symphonic pretensions of the album title, I think I expected it to have a better than average flow, but it didn't really to be honest. Not that it's badly arranged, but perhaps I'm just too used to each of the tracks within their respective scores to enjoy them arranged as such. Still, a fine collection to enjoy whenever I fancy an hour of random original Star Trek movie music.

[Tallguy 3,389]

20 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Correct... although I don't think anyone especially noticed had you not confessed ;-)

 

Gotta stay honest, right?

 

21 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Gave The Astral Symphony sequence a listen today and enjoyed it.

 

Me too! It was interesting on a few levels. I quite liked the sequence. There were a few tracks that I don't think I would have considered. The Katra Ritual was kind of a surprise. I know The Voyage Home gets a lot of hate. And even though it's not from me, I don't think I would have included Hospital Chase. I WOULD have picked Chekov's Run.

 

The variety really works in the album's favor. Going from Chekov's Run to Ilia's Theme worked surprisingly well.

 

The other thing that's cool is hearing some of these tracks "out of context". At one point (I forget which track it was) I thought "Oh, that's interesting. Did they use a different arrangement?" Then I thought "No, dummy. It's a playlist from your own original tracks! 'They' didn't do anything." You get used to hearing tracks always in the same order. For instance I realized listening to An Angry God that I never listen to that by itself. It's part of the whole "end of the disc".

 

It's kind of funny how the medium can affect how you know a score. Star Trek 1-4 started on LP for me. 5 and 6 were always on CD. So 5 and 6 are one big collection (never mind the full scores) but 1-4 I can still tell you where the album sides are. I think a short album side of 4 or 5 tracks helps you learn tracks better.

 

This is a nice collection of Trek music as well. Not as concise as the Astral Symphony, but there was 25 more years of Star Trek at that point!

 

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

On 06/06/2023 at 7:50 PM, Tallguy said:

 

Gotta stay honest, right?

 

 

Me too! It was interesting on a few levels. I quite liked the sequence. There were a few tracks that I don't think I would have considered. The Katra Ritual was kind of a surprise. I know The Voyage Home gets a lot of hate. And even though it's not from me, I don't think I would have included Hospital Chase. I WOULD have picked Chekov's Run.

 

The variety really works in the album's favor. Going from Chekov's Run to Ilia's Theme worked surprisingly well.

 

The other thing that's cool is hearing some of these tracks "out of context". At one point (I forget which track it was) I thought "Oh, that's interesting. Did they use a different arrangement?" Then I thought "No, dummy. It's a playlist from your own original tracks! 'They' didn't do anything." You get used to hearing tracks always in the same order. For instance I realized listening to An Angry God that I never listen to that by itself. It's part of the whole "end of the disc".

 

It's kind of funny how the medium can affect how you know a score. Star Trek 1-4 started on LP for me. 5 and 6 were always on CD. So 5 and 6 are one big collection (never mind the full scores) but 1-4 I can still tell you where the album sides are. I think a short album side of 4 or 5 tracks helps you learn tracks better.

Did my thing of forgetting to reply to a thread... I'll definitely have to listen to The Astral Symphony a few times, get the rhythm of it a bit more. I know what you mean about tracks like An Angry God, you don't really ever skip to that single track and listen to it (not in a way you might with a cue like The Enterprise), but it's nice to listen to it out of context as you perhaps pay attention to it more.

 

I had the original soundtracks to all the Star Trek scores, although I have to admit that I don't feel as wedded to the score order for TMP as I thought I might, probably because I had the single disc expansion from 1999 (ish) for far longer so got most familiar with it in that sequence. I've said it before, but I still feel that's a really satisfying presentation of TMP score, covering the major highlights but making for a tighter programme by omitting some of the shorter cues. I have that one as a playlist formed of the 3CD set and do put it on from time to time.

 

I have playlists for TWOK, mainly to cut a couple of the earlier suspense cues (notably the one that segues into Kirk in Shuttle, which I enjoy on its own), also replacing Battle in the Mutara Nebula with the album version (even if it's a very minor difference) and also having the pitch corrected version of Amazing Grace which sounds pretty horrible in the original - it reminds me of a piano concerto I saw last year with two pianos, one at concert pitch and one a semi tone different, it was... interesting*. For TFF I have a playlist that cuts the short cue when Kirk falls on Yosemite and replaces a couple of the action cues with the more effectively edited album versions. Nice to have the choice!

 

*bloody awful

 

On 06/06/2023 at 7:50 PM, Tallguy said:

This is a nice collection of Trek music as well. Not as concise as the Astral Symphony, but there was 25 more years of Star Trek at that point!

 

 

Will definitely have to check this one out, a nice range of stuff (even if the titles of some cues are kinda weird!?).

 

Watched Generations yesterday... I forgot quite how many plot holes that movie has, despite it actually being more enjoyable than I remembered in many ways even if Kirk's death is still pretty piss poor. I love that both the Enterprise B and D look gorgeous, especially the former, which has some of those beauty shots like TMP where it looks genuinely huge. You get that sense of scale in a similar way when you're alongside a huge cruise ship, that is often sorely lacking in more flashy effects.