Star Trek is better than everything

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

Apparently Kirk's death in Generations was more low-key (shot in the back, I think) originally, but Shatner had it rewritten so that he could go out more heroically.  

[Tallguy 3,398]

43 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Apparently Kirk's death in Generations was more low-key (shot in the back, I think) originally, but Shatner had it rewritten so that he could go out more heroically.  

 

No, they filmed it. Shatner was fine with it. Audiences HAAAAAATED it. They reshot it.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

1 hour ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Apparently Kirk's death in Generations was more low-key (shot in the back, I think)

 

"Beam me up, Scotty". Kirk said that. Nice man. Shot in the back. Very sad.

[Tallguy 3,398]

25 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

"Beam me up, Scotty". Kirk said that. Nice man. Shot in the back. Very sad.

 

And here I thought I was the only person who quoted that.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

 

No, they filmed it. Shatner was fine with it. Audiences HAAAAAATED it. They reshot it.

 

"They reshot it" 

Geddit? 

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

To be honest, it feels like his death should have been far more significant than saving a random planet we've never heard of. I can't honestly say that the replacement "bridge falling off some dusty rocks" feels significantly more heroic or exciting! When you compare it to some of the other sacrifices that characters have made throughout the franchise - Spock saving the Enterprise in TWOK being the most obvious - Kirk's death still feels quite inconsequential. He didn't effectively get to die saving the Enterprise B (as such), even if it wasn't his ship. I am always amused how the Enterprise B stuff has the classic characters but dialogue clearly from TNG writers. You'd never have have had a TOS episode where Kirk (or Scotty) went down to the deflector dish to generate some kind of energy pulse to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow... no wait, wrong franchise.

 

Still, that bothers me less than the needless death of Picard's relatives so the earliest scenes go from the terrific Worf promotion scene to the Captain crying in the conference room (it's like the early scenes in TMP were Spock is ultra logical and uptight so you get whole swathes of the movie lacking the chemistry of the three leads bouncing off each other). I have no issue with this aspect of his character, but for a cinema goer, it's a strange way to introduce such a crucial character - especially as his brother and nephew weren't regulars on the show (his brother only appeared in Family that I can recall) so there's virtually no emotional investment for even TNG fans and it seemed totally out of character for Picard generally.

 

I did enjoy Dennis McCarthy's score immensely. While I remember being disappointed that Jerry didn't get the gig, as a teenager I loved McCarthy's score. Sure the action isn't always as interesting Jerry or James Horner, although the Enterprise crash sequence is pretty damn exciting, especially where it cuts off as the saucer section hits a rocky outcrop and the rest of the sequence is just sound effects, really superb spotting. I didn't appreciate the etherial opening titles music when I was younger as much as now, especially the lead into the Courage fanfare as the bottle hits and then again, with a brilliant key change, as the full ship is revealed. I wonder if the mysterious start to Generations is why I I like the idea of a V'Ger led opening to TMP so much. Kirk's Death is very movingly scored too and the wistful finale cue can compete with similarly wistful send-offs earlier in the series.

 

Of course I do need to talk about the plot holes... (ignore if you're not a super nerd):

• It doesn't make sense that Soren didn't just fly a ship into the Nexus (clearly the people are taken to the Nexus, even if the ship is destroyed) rather than blowing up suns. OK he says he can't do it as ships are destroyed, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Plus if ships are destroyed, wouldn't the gantry, rocks etc. be destroyed by the Nexus?! Also, if you blow up a star, its mass is still there so the Nexus wouldn't change course anyway.
• Fuel rockets don't go from planets to the nearest sun in 11 seconds. Or 11 hours. Or 11 days. Or even 11 weeks. If they had to go with the "change the trajectory of the Nexus" thing they should have made it a huge energy weapon that causes the star to not only be destroyed but its mass dissipated in some way so that the star is essentially no longer occupying space. For writers as well versed in made up science and tech, that kind of in universe explanation would have made far more sense and pretty easy to formulate - plus it would make it seem like a much more valuable prize for the Klingons and the Romulans. Either way, it didn't make any sense that Soren waited to blow up the Veridian III star. He could have done it weeks before and the outcome would have been the same.
• How did the El-Aurian ships end up in the Nexus in the first place?! It doesn't seem to travel very fast and it seems large and energetic enough, with a predictable course, that it would be a well known astronomical phenomenon (like the orbits of comets are to us). The speed of the Nexus seems to change wildly from fast enough to travel between solar systems in days to basically floating past Soren like a lightning storm cloud at a speed of barely tens of kilometres per hour.
• There should have been some reason as to why Picard didn't go back earlier in time to save his family, the Enterprise, as well as Veridian III else it makes no sense that he didn't. I mean, otherwise he could have gone back to stop the Borg or whatever. Some kind of explanation as to the limits of where you could leave the Nexus would have given it more urgency and logic. While it might have got a bit "wormhole aliens/prophets" having some beings inside the Nexus could have been a good solution as they could perhaps control how much anyone leaving the Nexus could do as kind of their own prime directive.
• While the Enterprise D crash sequence is superbly staged (even if the model effects are perhaps a touch more noticeable these days), it doesn't really make sense that they wouldn't have ejected the warp core (I don't think there's a line from Geordi to explain this away) or that the saucer's impulse engines would not to have enough power to escape quickly - they are, after all, meant to get a starship to fast sub-light speeds so it shouldn't have been pottering away at what looks like a few hundred kph. It's a real shame they decided to ditch the Enterprise D for the later movies, I think I'm in a minority of liking it more than the Enterprise E, but it looks absolutely great after the upgrade of the model for the movie screen, just a shame there are so many reused shots of both it, the Enterprise B (as the Excelsior from TUC) and the Klingon Bird of Prey.
• While it might have been a bit too much like the demise of the Enterprise C (see Yesterday's Enterprise), having the D going down fighting to stop some far more heavily armed Klingons and perhaps some Romulans (after perhaps an exciting planet-hopping starship chase) from getting the weapon would have been a lot more satisfying. This would have worked especially well had the weapon on Veridian III been the aforementioned energy beam that could destroy a star and thus up the stakes all round.

Basically, I enjoy it, but story wise, it's a total mess. I don't think the TNG crew ever really got a great movie - even First Contact is kinda low key in scope despite it being really well staged, but compared to, say the finale of Season 3 of Picard with a huge armada being taken over by the Borg, fighting a few of them on the Enterprise to stop them building a beacon to phone home is fairly modest, even if the titular first contact is great.

[Tallguy 3,398]

@Tom Guernsey not much to argue about there. I might handwave away Soren's rocket as obviously having some kind of warp propulsion.

 

Kirk had a pretty fine death on the Enterprise-B, actually. It was a terrific sequence. Although I've always been annoyed with how Harriman is treated. I've never liked the "any captain who is not our lead is an idiot, evil, or both" style of writing. When Kirk looks dumbfounded and says "You left spacedock without a tractor beam?" I always want Harriman to shout back "Remember when I said 'We're in no condition for a rescue'? I thought that covered it!"

 

I enjoy Generations at least as much as First Contact. McCarthy's score is one of the best things he ever got to do.

 

As cheap as I think Robert and Rene's deaths are, I like the performance that Stewart gets to give. I ADORE the performance that Sirtis gets to give opposite him.

 

I don't think TNG ever looked better.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

John Alonzo's cinematography is among the (very) few things that I like about GENERATIONS, but, I'll always prefer Jeffrey Kimball's lensing for NEMESIS.

[Tallguy 3,398]

Generations is SOOOO PRETTY!

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

19 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

No, they filmed it. Shatner was fine with it. Audiences HAAAAAATED it. They reshot it.

Ah. Test audiences strike again, lol. 

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

18 hours ago, Tallguy said:

@Tom Guernsey not much to argue about there. I might handwave away Soren's rocket as obviously having some kind of warp propulsion.

Yeah, that would be an entirely sensible and consistent in-universe type explanation for it, although I can't help but feel that some kind of Death Star style star destroying energy weapon would have been a much more effective plot device, and would have given a lot more substance and urgency to it being pursued by the Klingons (RIP Lursa and B'etor - a shame really, they were great OTT characters - Klingon honour my arse) and Romulans.

 

18 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Kirk had a pretty fine death on the Enterprise-B, actually. It was a terrific sequence. Although I've always been annoyed with how Harriman is treated. I've never liked the "any captain who is not our lead is an idiot, evil, or both" style of writing. When Kirk looks dumbfounded and says "You left spacedock without a tractor beam?" I always want Harriman to shout back "Remember when I said 'We're in no condition for a rescue'? I thought that covered it!"

Agreed, much of that opening sequence has much to commend it. As I said earlier, the Enterprise B looks terrific and appropriately massive, especially that final shot with the gaping hole in the hull, really great to get such a sense of scale that's often missing since TMP. I do agree about Harriman though; I was slightly relieved that he's not quite as nervous and incompetent seeming as I had remembered but still gets a pretty raw deal - a TV show about him on the B would be a nice mid-quel (or whatever you'd call it) between TOS and TNG. As well as the "other captains are crap" trope, it also reuses the tired "the Enterprise is the only starship in the vicinity" plot device, which, I'm sorry, is absolutely fucking lame when you're in/near Earth's solar system. Everyone else was out?! Come on. It felt lame in TMP and it feels even more lame here. At least in TFF the admiral wants Kirk for the mission to rescue the hostages so it's plausible that he's called up.

 

18 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I enjoy Generations at least as much as First Contact. McCarthy's score is one of the best things he ever got to do.

I would tend to agree. Much though I'm a devoted Jerry fan, First Contact always feels just a smidgeon less interesting than I remember it. Yes, the best parts (the main theme/first contact sequence, plus the Phoenix launch sequence by Joel) are great, but some of the action isn't as well structured or as interesting as his best stuff. A friend on Facebook seemed genuinely shocked that I rated TFF far higher score wise, but all that awe and wonder stuff for "God" plus much more interesting action writing pitches it significantly above any of his scores for the TNG movies. Thinking about it, the fact that McCarthy got to do a bit of that awe and wonder stuff for the Nexus is probably what gives it that extra something.

 

18 hours ago, Tallguy said:

As cheap as I think Robert and Rene's deaths are, I like the performance that Stewart gets to give. I ADORE the performance that Sirtis gets to give opposite him.

Patrick Stewart and Marina Sirtis definitely sell that scene which would otherwise have been incredibly corny.

 

18 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I don't think TNG ever looked better.

 

16 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

John Alonzo's cinematography is among the (very) few things that I like about GENERATIONS, but, I'll always prefer Jeffrey Kimball's lensing for NEMESIS.

Agreed; the much more striking lighting for Generations gives the Enterprise a lot more character both inside and out (even if the insides seem to be in a state of being perpetually in low evening sun, which would in reality by hell on the crew!). I can't say I noticed the look on Nemesis, might have to rewatch that one sometime.

[Giftheck 916]

19 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

As well as the "other captains are crap" trope, it also reuses the tired "the Enterprise is the only starship in the vicinity" plot device, which, I'm sorry, is absolutely fucking lame when you're in/near Earth's solar system. Everyone else was out?! Come on. It felt lame in TMP and it feels even more lame here. At least in TFF the admiral wants Kirk for the mission to rescue the hostages so it's plausible that he's called up.

 

 

I always found that funny especially given the line usually says the Enterprise is the only ship in the entire quadrant. The Romulans and Klingons must not have been very serious about conquest, then, because that's a wide open goal there 😂 It would still be quite the coincidence but they'd have been better off saying instead that the Enterprise was the closest ship in range, rather than the only one in the quadrant.

 

But the Federation can muster the whole fleet for a flyby for Frontier Day, of course 🤣

[Tallguy 3,398]

11 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

even if the insides seem to be in a state of being perpetually in low evening sun, which would in reality by hell on the crew!

 

But that was the cool thing: It's all motivated by the "natural" light from the ship's windows. When the star explodes everything shifts to the cool blue-white of the nova.

[karelm 2,914]

Kirk's death needed a TWOK Spock death impact.  It didn't deliver.   I don't know if he even needed to die.  I get they needed to pass the torch but there were many other ways to do that.  In TWOK it was an example of just how great that script was...superior to Moby Dick which it's based on.  Point 1 of killing off a major character (listen Star Wars TFA), the characters who experience the loss need history with that character.  Picard just met Kirk.  Nowhere near the impact as Kirk losing Spock but more importantly was it was in settling a decades old revenge obsession.  

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

14 hours ago, Giftheck said:

But the Federation can muster the whole fleet for a flyby for Federation Day, of course 🤣

 

*Frontier Day. 

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

20 hours ago, Giftheck said:

 

I always found that funny especially given the line usually says the Enterprise is the only ship in the entire quadrant. The Romulans and Klingons must not have been very serious about conquest, then, because that's a wide open goal there 😂 It would still be quite the coincidence but they'd have been better off saying instead that the Enterprise was the closest ship in range, rather than the only one in the quadrant.

I'm guessing sometimes the terminology is used a bit haphazardly and they mean sector (although I don't think they've ever clearly defined what counts as a sector) or some other rather smaller area of space, but yes, if they did mean quadrant... I mean, is everyone else lost with Voyager or the other side of the Bajoran wormhole?!

 

9 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

But that was the cool thing: It's all motivated by the "natural" light from the ship's windows. When the star explodes everything shifts to the cool blue-white of the nova.

Oh agreed, it looks great - I'm being too practical about it!

 

8 hours ago, karelm said:

Kirk's death needed a TWOK Spock death impact.  It didn't deliver.   I don't know if he even needed to die.  I get they needed to pass the torch but there were many other ways to do that.  In TWOK it was an example of just how great that script was...superior to Moby Dick which it's based on.  Point 1 of killing off a major character (listen Star Wars TFA), the characters who experience the loss need history with that character.  Picard just met Kirk.  Nowhere near the impact as Kirk losing Spock but more importantly was it was in settling a decades old revenge obsession.  

Totally agreed, indeed the fact that he "dies" twice in the film means that the second time has even less impact and even more that, for my money, the first time is more heroic, exciting and meaningful. What could be more a meaningful death for a character like Kirk than saving a starship Enterprise?!

 

I can't help but feel that the Nexus as a plot device is perhaps the worst thing about Generations. I don't know exactly, but some story where Kirk was taken from the Enterprise B in an "accident" but the aliens in the Nexus (or something like it) and he's working to thwart some plan of theirs, but is kept alive in the intervening time by the power of the Nexus. I guess something a bit akin to The Time of the Doctor but instead of becoming Peter Capaldi, Kirk dies in a final heroic sacrifice. Even if it's less meaningful than the deaths of, say, Spock or Data, it would be a lot more meaningful than him suddenly realising that he can't live in log cabin heaven with his girlfriend forever. Given how desperate Soren is to escape, both Picard and Kirk find it pretty easy to leave the Nexus.

[Giftheck 916]

If you take the long view, his second death was also about saving the Enterprise, because otherwise its crew dies when the shockwave Soran creates hits the planet. However, perhaps that would have read better had they just not crashed the ship. At least Kirk's Enterprise got to survive more than one film before they blew it up.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

23 hours ago, Giftheck said:

I always found that funny especially 

But the Federation can muster the whole fleet for a flyby for Frontier Day, of course 🤣

 

"New cities, homes in the country, your woman at your side, children playing at your feet, and overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation.

Charming (!)".

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 18/05/2023 at 10:45 AM, Tallguy said:

Kirk faced death from the first pilot and onward.

 

Just read this and did a double take. I think you mean the *second* pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" -- and it's an excellent point on your part because Kirk had to face the death of his literal best friend (long before Spock became that).

 

Yavar

[Tallguy 3,398]

50 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

Just read this and did a double take. I think you mean the *second* pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" -- and it's an excellent point on your part because Kirk had to face the death of his literal best friend (long before Spock became that).

 

Yavar

 

Well... HIS first pilot! But yes, good catch. And also yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

Had a semi nostalgic watch of The Final Frontier today and still enjoy it plenty. It's less a bad film (I mean, it's not great) than one which has lots of potential that it doesn't have the script or budget to capitalise on. The lighter moments are some of the best in the series (except the Scotty hits his head scene which is fairly cringeworthy) - notably the opening scenes around the campfire. They might be corny, but they feel authentic, which counts for a lot.

 

Sure, the FX are often fairly ropey, but again, there are some lovely shots, notably the one of the Enterprise against the moon as Kirk, Spock and McCoy travel back by shuttle. Added to that, the little exchange about where the "a tall ship" quote is Melville or John Masefield but why doesn't Spock then doesn't know the words to Row, Row, Row Your Boat is charming and, again, feels totally authentic to the characters. It's also accompanied by one of my favourite short Jerry cues. Sure, it's not as grand as The Enterprise from TMP but it's a lovely reintroduction to the Enterprise.

 

At the risk of being a complete plot nitpicker, Sybok's method of obtaining a starship doesn't make much sense. Surely he'd have been better to get on board by some legitimate means (which doesn't feel beyond the wit/intelligence of the character) and turn the crew more surreptitiously. In fairness, if it were a TNG episode, I wouldn't have been surprised if they had gone of their own free will in the interests of exploration.

 

One thing that struck me was how much the last half of the film is more or less the plot of TMP. A Vulcan is called by a consciousness across space, they fly through a scary looking cloud to find an immense power source on the other side, a place is constructed where they meet the entity producing the power source, the motives of said entity aren't quite what was expected, one of the characters joins with the entity, the end.

 

Even if it's not really as good a film as everyone intended, I still find it surprising how much it's disowned by everyone from Gene Roddenberry down. The plot of "madman tries to find god, god turns out to be malevolent alien" is Star Trek plotting 101 (ditto for Doctor Who in fairness) even if it's amped up with slightly more action for a feature. With some re-writes and a decent budget, it could have been a grand adventure, but the budget cuts more or less ruin the ending. It would have been much more satisfying if Sha-Ka-Ree had been a proper paradise, rather than a desolate rock of a planet. Sybok's comments about it looking just like he imagined seem quite unconvincing against what we're actually seeing. Obviously late 80s effects and the film's budget wouldn't stretch to something like Avatar, but that kind of genuine paradise would have given the finale much more edge as perhaps the alien strips away the paradise to reveal a desolate hellscape he's looking to escape. You also find out sod all about the alien, why it called to Sybok in particular and why it's trapped on Sha-Ka-Ree etc. It's not even unknowable in a mysterious way, it's just a plot device. The fact that the Enterprise crew comment on how powerful it is, the entity is destroyed fairly easily - compare to V'Ger which presents a genuine threat to Earth.

 

Still, fun and it was great hearing Jerry's score in context. While I would absolutely choose TMP as the best Star Trek score, The Final Frontier is perhaps the closest to the overall aesthetic of Star Trek; the Barrier is presented as more wondrous than ominous, the action is fun and mixes the various thematic material superbly. Sure, the Klingon Battle in TMP is great, but TFF has a lot more variety in its action writing. However you feel about it, it's probably the greatest example of Jerry scoring the film the filmmakers intended rather than the one they were able to make. He doesn't save it, but he gives it a lot more gravitas and momentum than it might otherwise have done.

[Tallguy 3,398]

34 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I still find it surprising how much it's disowned by everyone from Gene Roddenberry down.

 

Well, he also disowned 2 and 3 until he needed to start mining them for TNG. He wasn't happy with 6 either but that was literally at the end of his life.

 

35 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Sure, the FX are often fairly ropey, but again, there are some lovely shots, notably the one of the Enterprise against the moon as Kirk, Spock and McCoy travel back by shuttle.

 

It's a wonderful pre-viz.

 

It's got some nice moments with the characters and the score is wonderful. It's one of the worst wastes of David Warner in a long career of being wasted. (Shut up. You know what I meant.)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

I'll defend V to my dying day.

It's not a perfect film. It's not even a perfect Star Trek film (far from it), but @Tom Guernsey's review is spot on.

Yes, V has "comedy" that should have been stoned to death at the writing stage, but there's enough great drama - Sybok showing Spock and Bones where they went wrong; "Damn you, sir! You will try"; Spock revealed as the Bird of Prey's gunner - that proves that it's possible to forgive all that.

I've posted before, and I'll post again: V has three great things going for it.

1/ Andrew Laszlo's cinematography is among the best of the series,

2/ The sound is great (as one critic said: "It's upfront and vital").

3/ Everyone should be prostrating themselves at Shatner's feet, for bring back Jerry!

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

On 17/06/2023 at 1:18 PM, Tallguy said:

 

Well, he also disowned 2 and 3 until he needed to start mining them for TNG. He wasn't happy with 6 either but that was literally at the end of his life.

I guess it's difficult to tell TV show style stories on the big screen (which is why I broadly feel Star Trek works better on TV) so guess he was unlikely to be happy with many of the movies!

 

On 17/06/2023 at 1:18 PM, Tallguy said:

It's a wonderful pre-viz.

 

It's got some nice moments with the characters and the score is wonderful. It's one of the worst wastes of David Warner in a long career of being wasted. (Shut up. You know what I meant.)

When you say a pre-viz, do you mean it's a static shot? I assume that's what it is. I always associate pre-viz with CGI (i.e. a low quality render to block out the action). Agree that David Warner is wasted, even if he does a great job with a relatively limited part. I'm sure I've mentioned before but one of the old sci-fi magazines used to have an annual "David Warner award for being in a genre he doesn't like" which was invariably won by David Warner for being in Star Trek...

 

On 17/06/2023 at 1:46 PM, Naïve Old Fart said:

I'll defend V to my dying day.

It's not a perfect film. It's not even a perfect Star Trek film (far from it), but @Tom Guernsey's review is spot on.

Yes, V has "comedy" that should have been stoned to death at the writing stage, but there's enough great drama - Sybok showing Spock and Bones where they went wrong; "Damn you, sir! You will try"; Spock revealed as the Bird of Prey's gunner - that proves that it's possible to forgive all that.

I've posted before, and I'll post again: V has three great things going for it.

1/ Andrew Laszlo's cinematography is among the best of the series,

2/ The sound is great (as one critic said: "It's upfront and vital").

3/ Everyone should be prostrating themselves at Shatner's feet, for bring back Jerry!

Thank you, I'm glad my rambling review was appreciated! I just think it has lots of great moments in it that are far better than its reputation would suggest. I mean, if they had a Picard level budget spread over a 10 episode season, it would make a great extended story where you'd have a much more of a chance to dive into Sybok's backstory, how he came to connect with the alien entity and much other stuff besides, but for the budget and time, it's great stuff.

 

Agreed that the cinematography is great. The opening scenes on Nimbus III are especially well staged. I'm sure it's basic desert filming 101 to go low down and lots of deep focus, but it gives the film a terrifically cinematic start as Sybok rides in. I'm not sure the actual interaction with his first follower is all that great otherwise, but it looks great. The sound is great and Jerry's score comes out well in the mix too. I will never understand why all the brass is mixed to the same side on this (unlike the conventional horns to the left, trumpets/trombones to the right) but I guess we'll never know... unless we message Bruce Botnik I guess lol.

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

Warner didn't like doing sci-fi? Hmm ... after the Who episode Cold War and the Big Finish series with him as an 'alternate universe' Doctor, I'd suggest that he maybe didn't dislike ALL of it.   

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

8 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Warner didn't like doing sci-fi? Hmm ... after the Who episode Cold War and the Big Finish series with him as an 'alternate universe' Doctor, I'd suggest that he maybe didn't dislike ALL of it.   

I think it may have been a fairly tongue in cheek thing and perhaps his view on the genre softened, or he was just happy to take the money?! Either way, he always brought a lot to those sci-fi roles he may or may not have liked! I met him a the "Captains" Star Trek convention about 10 years ago, he was a delight. I'll have to dig out my photo of me with him. What a lovely man. Almost a year since he passed away alas.

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

Yes, I imagine he'd have many an anecdote! On a similar note, was gutted when there was only time for a photo with Julian Glover at the last con I was at ... wanted to ask is it more fun trying to kill Rebels, James Bond, the Doctor or Indiana Jones.   

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

Just now, Sweeping Strings said:

Yes, I imagine he'd have many an anecdote! On a similar note, was gutted when there was only time for a photo with Julian Glover at the last con I was at ... wanted to ask is it more fun trying to kill Rebels, James Bond, the Doctor or Indiana Jones.   

I'm sure he did although I have to admit that I don't recall what we talked about. I didn't want to chat too long so did a fairly standard "hello and lovely to meet you" type thing! I saw Julian Glover in a musical a few years ago (in a non-singing role) and regret not waiting around after to get an autograph.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

7 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Yes, I imagine he'd have many an anecdote! On a similar note, was gutted when there was only time for a photo with Julian Glover at the last con I was at ... wanted to ask is it more fun trying to kill Rebels, James Bond, the Doctor or Indiana Jones.   

 

He tried to kill The Doctor twice. He was in "The Crusade", with Bill Hartnell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Warner didn't like doing sci-fi? Hmm ... after the Who episode Cold War and the Big Finish series with him as an 'alternate universe' Doctor, I'd suggest that he maybe didn't dislike ALL of it.   

 

TIME AFTER TIME

TRON 

NIGHTWING 

THE ISLAND 

THE MAN WITH TWO BRAINS 

TMNT 2

NECRONOMICON 

IN THE MOUTH OF MADNESS 

PLANET OF THE APES (the bad one) 

 

Plenty of SF there, and most of it pretty decent.

[Tallguy 3,398]

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

When you say a pre-viz, do you mean it's a static shot?

 

No, pre-viz is the mock ups you do to show what the finished effects will look like.

 

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I always associate pre-viz with CGI (i.e. a low quality render to block out the action).

 

Yes, this. I'm saying the compositions are OK, but they're not "finished" FX.'

 

Someone asked Warner about Tron shortly before he died. He said he had no idea what it was about.

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

38 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

No, pre-viz is the mock ups you do to show what the finished effects will look like.

 

Yes, this. I'm saying the compositions are OK, but they're not "finished" FX.'

Yeah, that's what I thought. I wouldn't have taken that particular shot in TFF to be one of those, although guess it might be? It is fairly static, but very effective.

 

38 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Someone asked Warner about Tron shortly before he died. He said he had no idea what it was about.

Makes two of us ;-)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

There are plenty of YouTube channels, featuring updated visual effects, for STAR TREK V, and some of them are pretty good.

 

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Makes two of us ;-)

 

Well, it's about a guy who...ah, fuck it! Just watch it, dude; it's a lotta fun 

[Tallguy 3,398]

2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Yeah, that's what I thought. I wouldn't have taken that particular shot in TFF to be one of those, although guess it might be? It is fairly static, but very effective.

 

To be clear: None of the shots in Trek V are literal pre-vis. It's just that most of them are so unfinished they look like they should have been.

 

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Well, it's about a guy who...ah, fuck it! Just watch it, dude; it's a lotta fun 

 

I'm sure there were things I listened to in the summer of 1982 that were not Tron, Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, and E.T. But I can't think of what they would be. (I got Secret of NIMH much later.)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I'm sure there were things I listened to in the summer of 1982 that were not Tron, Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, and E.T. But I can't think of what they could be.

 

POLTERGEIST 

CONAN THE BARBARIAN 

THE THING 

THE CHALLENGE 

FIREFOX 

INCHON 

[Tallguy 3,398]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

POLTERGEIST 

CONAN THE BARBARIAN 

THE THING 

THE CHALLENGE 

FIREFOX 

INCHON 

 

1) I was 13. (Yes, many 13 year olds got to see Conan and The Thing - I wasn't one of them. Neither are my kids.)

2) There was never a Firefox LP. Don't tease like that.

3) I'm STILL not all that into Poltergeist as a separate listening experience, as great as it is.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

46 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

1) I was 13. (Yes, many 13 year olds got to see Conan and The Thing - I wasn't one of them. Neither are my kids.)

2) There was never a Firefox LP. Don't tease like that.

3) I'm STILL not all that into Poltergeist as a separate listening experience, as great as it is.

 

1) my condolences.

2) I rented the video, and heard it, that way.

3) you're an eejit.

Spoiler

Not really, but, honestly, dude, POLTERGEIST is a truly great score 

 

[Schilkeman 964]

On 17/06/2023 at 8:46 AM, Naïve Old Fart said:

I'll defend V to my dying day.

It's not a perfect film. It's not even a perfect Star Trek film (far from it), but @Tom Guernsey's review is spot on.

Yes, V has "comedy" that should have been stoned to death at the writing stage, but there's enough great drama - Sybok showing Spock and Bones where they went wrong; "Damn you, sir! You will try"; Spock revealed as the Bird of Prey's gunner - that proves that it's possible to forgive all that.

I've posted before, and I'll post again: V has three great things going for it.

1/ Andrew Laszlo's cinematography is among the best of the series,

2/ The sound is great (as one critic said: "It's upfront and vital").

3/ Everyone should be prostrating themselves at Shatner's feet, for bring back Jerry!

I have a long history of loving films that most people seem to hate, from the prequels to The Godfather III, but for me, rarely has a film lived up to it's reputation for badness the way ST:V does. I was in awe of it's ineptitude. To each their own lol.

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

15 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

To be clear: None of the shots in Trek V are literal pre-vis. It's just that most of them are so unfinished they look like they should have been.

Gotcha! Although ironically, the shot of the Enterprise against the moon (where this part of the discussion started) is one of the few shots that actually looks finished, but I take your point!

 

16 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

There are plenty of YouTube channels, featuring updated visual effects, for STAR TREK V, and some of them are pretty good.

I found one some by YouTube by Hike Animation which aren't bad, but I can't say I found them wholly convincing. It did make me realise that when we first see the Enterprise, it's in Space Dock (shot from ST IV) but when they take the shuttle it's orbiting in free space. Guess they couldn't afford to do FX that involved Space Dock - I mean there's no reason why they wouldn't have moved the ship to free space ahead of the command crew returning but normally you'd expect the ship to leave from the place it's first shown.

 

16 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Well, it's about a guy who...ah, fuck it! Just watch it, dude; it's a lotta fun 

I'm pretty sure I've seen Tron (and have definitely seen the sequel) but may have to revisit it.

 

13 hours ago, Tallguy said:

3) I'm STILL not all that into Poltergeist as a separate listening experience, as great as it is.

Gasp. Although to be fair, it took me a while to really appreciate Poltergeist but now it's a top Jerry score for me.

 

12 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

  Hide contents

Not really, but, honestly, dude, POLTERGEIST is a truly great score 

 

It is.

 

5 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I have a long history of loving films that most people seem to hate, from the prequels to The Godfather III, but for me, rarely has a film lived up to it's reputation for badness the way ST:V does. I was in awe of it's ineptitude. To each their own lol.

I think the general thrust of my feelings on STV is that, somewhere in there is a really great movie about the existence of god, fanaticism and cults, plus some good old Star Trek sci-fi of "going where no-one has gone before" through the Great Barrier (even if it's not plausibly located based on the length of journey etc.). It doesn't really pull it off for myriad reasons, but it aimed high, which is why I'd rank it above other, better made Star Trek movies, such as Nemesis, which doesn't really aim for anything meaningful and is just a moderately well made space action movie.

[Tallguy 3,398]

15 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

3) you're an eejit.

 

I have a similar response when people say "How to Train Your Dragon isn't anything special."

 

Poltergeist is kind of in the vast mix of Jerry greatness where I can find other scores that hit those buttons. Maybe I just haven't had a good presentation. I own whatever version came out in 1995-ish?

[Tallguy 3,398]

On 20/06/2023 at 6:18 AM, Tom Guernsey said:

Gasp. Although to be fair, it took me a while to really appreciate Poltergeist but now it's a top Jerry score for me.

 

OK, you win. Poltergeist is awesome.

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

4 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

OK, you win. Poltergeist is awesome.

I'm glad you agree  It also has another of those charming "suburban neighbourhood" scherzos that Jerry was oddly great at (see also Gremlins, The 'Burbs, Small Soldiers and Matinee... @Yavar Moradi - am I missing any?).

 

It's a shame he didn't do a Poltergeist suite along the lines of the one he did for Gremlins. Carol-Anne's theme is lovely and all, but is very much not the most interesting part of the score! Then again, the whirling transition from Carol-Anne's theme into the theme from Papillon in the motion picture suite is a brilliant moment.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

4 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

OK, you win. Poltergeist is awesome.

 

Fuckin' A!

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 20/06/2023 at 6:48 AM, Tallguy said:

I have a similar response when people say "How to Train Your Dragon isn't anything special."

 

Poltergeist is kind of in the vast mix of Jerry greatness where I can find other scores that hit those buttons. Maybe I just haven't had a good presentation. I own whatever version came out in 1995-ish?

 

Yeah I had that version and was underwhelmed for years... until the FSM edition came out with much better sound:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm/CDID/452/Poltergeist/

 

On 17/06/2023 at 6:46 AM, Naïve Old Fart said:

I'll defend V to my dying day.

I've posted before, and I'll post again: V has three great things going for it.

1/ Andrew Laszlo's cinematography is among the best of the series,

2/ The sound is great (as one critic said: "It's upfront and vital").

3/ Everyone should be prostrating themselves at Shatner's feet, for bring back Jerry!

 

FIVE:

4/ Giving DeForest Kelley his best acting opportunity in the entire series, for the scene of his "secret pain".

5/ Honestly, despite treating the supporting cast like shit (after they'd had great roles in the previous two Nimoy-directed entries)... in terms of the central trio of Kirk/Spock/McCoy, this is really some of the best character interaction we ever got.

 

Also 1:32-1:51 of this is a great Trek moment IMO:

 

 

5 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I'm glad you agree  It also has another of those charming "suburban neighbourhood" scherzos that Jerry was oddly great at (see also Gremlins, The 'Burbs, Small Soldiers and Matinee... @Yavar Moradi - am I missing any?).

 

Uh.... probably? My brain is saying The Other and Raggedy Man, but I'd have to go back and double check.

Yavar

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

The hum of the engines as they come back online, is great.

[Jay 37,369]

10 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Then again, the whirling transition from Carol-Anne's theme into the theme from Papillon in the motion picture suite is a brilliant moment.

 

I have not heard this! 

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I have not heard this! 

It's in the Motion Picture Medley that appears on both the Goldsmith Conducts Goldsmith album and the slightly longer version on The Film Music of Jerry Goldsmith, just where Poltergeist segues into Papillon.

[Andy 4,138]

My wife and I made the pilgrimage up to Ticonderoga, NY, up many winding mountain roads to the middle of nowhere to visit the Star Trek Original Series Set Tour  , where a superfan has meticulously recreated the original sets. 

 

It is absolutely surreal. 
 

I had many “moments” where I really forgot where I was. When they open the doors from the turbo lift to the bridge… it’s an indescribable feeling.  (They save that for last on the tour. )
 

I got the photo tour, basically a personal photographer who takes you through each set and snaps pics of you.  And yes, I’m a big kid, so I hammed it up like a goofball. 
 

 

[Tallguy 3,398]

That is so awesome. I wanted to go this year but Real Life keeps getting in the way.

 

I think I want to see that Jefferies tube more than anything. Every time it shows up on SNW I squeal.

 

BTW, listened to this today:

 

 

Fantastic! How did I not know that Fred Steiner wrote Perry Mason?!? AND Rocky and Bullwinkle!!!

[Andy 4,138]

The guy who built it is also an Elvis Impersonator and he is now building a 1966 Batmobile.  I am a Batman 66 superfan also and will probably go back in my Adam West batsuit to get pics in the car, but also as Batman on the Enterprise. 

[Tallguy 3,398]

@Andy did they get the Galileo on display yet? I know they were getting it, I just didn't know when it was going to be part of the exhibit.