Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS

[Faleel 5,354]

2: A Wizard is Never Late

 

The difference between V1 and V2 is that

 

A: I shifted the first part of the theme a few seconds later

 

B: I added a little string line for tension to the second part.

 

3: Angmar 1 Gandalf 0

 

In the CR cue the trumpets only play the first 6 notes of the Gondor theme, and just plays "breathing" tension chords, I finished out the theme statement.

 

The differences are pretty much just due to me trying to make sure I what I was writing was actually possible to be played, without overdubbing.

 

The differences are basically just whether it has the Horns doubling the trumpets, and whether the trumpets have the higher pitch line on top or just the lower pitch line.

[Monoverantus 363]

I made another LotR rescoring video, this time with Legolas' theme. While just as fun as Bilbo's and Gandalf's themes, this was a lot trickier.

 

[Jay 37,369]

That was fun! 

[Faleel 5,354]

That statement for the Oliphant sequence actually turned out really well!

[Chen G. 3,949]

Great stuff. What's left to do in this vein? Maybe some of the nature-related material associated with the Eagles? Some of the Dwarven stuff?

[Monoverantus 363]

49 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Great stuff. What's left to do in this vein? Maybe some of the nature-related material associated with the Eagles? Some of the Dwarven stuff?

To me at least, Bilbo, Gandalf and Legolas are the most glaring absences in LotR if you watch chronologically, but there's certainly other moments that can be played around with too (Warg theme for the Warg Attack, Thorin's theme when Gandalf mentions him in Moria, perhaps Death and Parting or the Istari theme).

[Chen G. 3,949]

32 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

(Warg theme for the Warg Attack, Thorin's theme when Gandalf mentions him in Moria, perhaps Death and Parting or the Istari theme).

 

Well, doesn't the Warg-related material preety much turn into that motive associated with the Orcs and their machinations (first heard, appropriately enough, during the Warg attack in The Two Towers?) and the so-called "Death and Parting" figure turns into the theme related to the trials of the war of the Ring?

 

There are allusions to the Dwarven material all over The Fellowship of the Ring: there's that little figure when Gandalf examines the Map of the Lonely Mountain that, since 2012, never fails to remind me of Thorin and Company. More subtly, that little bit of a scale that begins the Dwarrowdelf composition introduces every single Dwarf into Bag End in An Unexpected Journey and every pair of Dwarves to Beorn in The Desolation of Smaug. In conversation with Ian Nathan, Shore specifically said he wanted audiences going forward to hear that scale in Khazad Dum as a reminiscence of Thorin and Company and all I can say is it works for me.

 

Gandalf's material would have been fun to hear in The Fellowship of the Ring, but since he doesn't have long as Gandalf the Grey, its hardly a big issue. We're not talking about something major like, Oh I dunno, the Imperial march being entirely absent from what's supposed to be the fourth episode of a musical cycle in which that theme is immensly dominant. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that just because a motive drops out of the storytelling at some point doesn't necessarily weaken the narrative thread: I believe there's an article of Pierre Boulez from when he was conducting the centenary Ring about how its exactly the dropping-out of old motives, and the reinventing of others, that gives The Ring a unique dimension, and we basically have the same thing here.

[Monoverantus 363]

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

There are allusions to the Dwarven material all over The Fellowship of the Ring: there's that little figure when Gandalf examines the Map of the Lonely Mountain that, since 2012, never fails to remind me of Thorin and Company. More subtly, that little bit of a scale that begins the Dwarrowdelf composition introduces every single Dwarf into Bag End in An Unexpected Journey and every pair of Dwarves to Beorn in The Desolation of Smaug. In conversation with Ian Nathan, Shore specifically said he wanted audiences going forward to hear that scale in Khazad Dum as a reminiscence of Thorin and Company and all I can say is it works for me.

Same here. There's little point to rescore those scenes, because they already work as retroactive call-backs.

[Faleel 5,354]

The Nine theme could have worked in Fellowship, if the bit with Legolas shooting a Nazgul down had been in the film

[Monoverantus 363]

I did a final compilation of scenes with Hobbit themes. Thanks again to @A Farewell to Kings for the inspiration, this has been a fun pastime these last few weeks.

 

[Faleel 5,354]

Neat! I believe I have some humming choirs if you wouldn't mind me taking a crack at your cue?

[SUH 65]

Terrific work Monoverantus. These are your best ones yet. I think your tracks work best when you replace the score entirely rather than layering parts on top of the pre-existing score tracks.

 

The Fussy Bilbo theme played in a more foreboding way works great in that scene. As does the Istari theme - a personal favourite of mine, I got a real kick out of hearing it over the scene of Gandalf and Saruman in Isengard. I'm hoping there may be some unreleased Shore cues containing more of the Istari theme in future Hobbit Complete Recordings or a Rarities Archive. 

 

The Council of Elrond entrances was fun; the Woodland Realm Theme has such an evocative melody that using it for Legolas’s entrance is brilliant and gives a sense that he carries a legacy with him. Using the Dwarven Entrance Theme for Gimli was an inspired choice and pairs great with that shot of him!

 

The dwarven themes during the Mines of Moria sequence was something I didn’t know I needed, but wow! The House of Durin theme for the tombs is just perfect. I’d love to hear more scenes with Erebor, Thorin and The House of Durin themes (or even Dain’s theme if it would make sense anywhere!).

[Monoverantus 363]

35 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Neat! I believe I have some humming choirs if you wouldn't mind me taking a crack at your cue?

By all means go ahead. What software do you use?

 

27 minutes ago, SUH said:

Terrific work Monoverantus. These are your best ones yet. I think your tracks work best when you replace the score entirely rather than layering parts on top of the pre-existing score tracks.

Many many thanks! It's certainly easiest to do scenes that doesn't already have score, because it feels less like "meddling" with the music that's already there.

[Faleel 5,354]

32 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

By all means go ahead. What software do you use?

 

 

I have finale, but I mostly use Reaper as a DAW.

 

I have used MuseScore before as well.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

The Dwarven theme during the Balin's Tomb section is inspired and fits like a glove. Given that the Hobbit albums function far more for me as concept albums, I do picture something similar when I hear the section of The Hunters with that theme on cello (or whatever).

[Monoverantus 363]

Btw, one odd thing I noticed while working on these videos, is that Bilbo's Fussy Theme is almost identical in melody to The History of the Ring...

[Chen G. 3,949]

Would you look at that, its the same music!

[Richard Penna 3,694]

21 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

Btw, one odd thing I noticed while working on these videos, is that Bilbo's Fussy Theme is almost identical in melody to The History of the Ring...

 

Do you have any timestamps for Bilbo's Fussy Theme?

[Jay 37,369]

1 minute ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Do you have any timestamps for Bilbo's Fussy Theme?

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23907-the-themes-of-howard-shores-the-hobbit/

[Bilbo 3,709]

I’m sure this has been covered before but the bonus track on the TTT special edition, Farewell to Lothlórien. Is this music included elsewhere or is it considered an alternate worth having for completeness sake.
 

Is it a theatrical version not present on the regular Fellowship OST or CR? Or is it part of one of the CR tracks. 
 

I suspect it’s the theatrical gift giving scene but I’m not sure. (I don’t have the track itself to check)

[Faleel 5,354]

It's the EE cue.

[Jay 37,369]

3 hours ago, Bilbo said:

I’m sure this has been covered before but the bonus track on the TTT special edition, Farewell to Lothlórien. Is this music included elsewhere or is it considered an alternate worth having for completeness sake.

 

It's a combo track that starts with the EE version of the gift-giving music, circles back to repeat a portion of that again, then ends with the "Gilraen's Memorial" cue.

 

None of this music was on the FOTR OST album and couldn't have been; None of this music was recorded until 2002, to go into the EE cut of the film.

 

And yes, all of it appears on the Complete Recordings set:

1. 0:00-3:07 = TCR 3-04 "The Fighting Uruk-hai" [2:28-6:06]
2. 0:00-3:07 = tracked repeat of TCR 3-04 "The Fighting Uruk-hai" [4:15-4:34]
3. 0:00-3:07 = TCR 2-09 "Gilraen's Memorial" [0:00-1:09]

 

 

3 hours ago, Bilbo said:

Is it a theatrical version not present on the regular Fellowship OST or CR? Or is it part of one of the CR tracks. 

 

The theatrical version of the gift-giving scene is on the original FOTR OST album, in the track "The Great River" from 0:00-0:50

 

 

3 hours ago, Bilbo said:

I suspect it’s the theatrical gift giving scene but I’m not sure. (I don’t have the track itself to check)

 

The whole point of the bonus track they put on the TTT:SE album was to put music that wasn't on the FOTR OST album.  The FOTR OST album had the gift-giving music that was in the film, so for a bonus track for this new special album, they likely were motivated to pick a big standout cue that was recorded in 2002 for the EE cut of the film.  So for that purpose, the gift giving scene sure makes sense to me!  It's very different from the theatrical version, over 3 times longer, and full of choir.   And it was probably Shore's idea to include "Gilraen's Memorial" cue in the same track, since it has a similar sound (more choir!), and fixes the issue of the ending;  The EE gift-giving music was written to segue into a cue that was already on the FOTR OST, so segueing to "Gilraen's Memorial" instead concludes things nicely without repeating anything already released.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Excellent and thorough answer Jay! Thanks very much. 
 

I’m hunting down some of the tie in material released with the films 20 odd years ago and I’ve just been trying to fill in the gaps of knowledge of what’s what

 

I’ve gotten all 4 art books (one for each film plus a 4th one with art from the first three books + art not in the first three), the gift sets of the EE DVDs (to get the statues), and I am going to get the three Limited Edition soundtracks as well. Already have RotK and Fellowship is in the post. I know they’re not really essential but they’re just nice to have.

[Jay 37,369]

The TTT:SE OST is the only one that actually has different music.  Not only does it include the "Farewell to Lorien" track, but it also shortens two tracks ("The Uruk-Hai" and "The Black Gate Is Closed") to make room for it.

[Bilbo 3,709]

It’s always the most expensive of the three for some reason. 
 

In every set of LotR items there’s one film that costs more than the others and it’s never the same one! 
 

Gift Sets is Fellowship (the book ends I suppose)*

Soundtracks is TTT (extra track I guess but you’d imagine RotK’s DVD would be more sought after?)

Art Books is RotK. I have no way of explaining that one. Maybe it was a smaller print run with the Art of Trilogy book coming out. 

 

*TTT is easily the cheapest. I guess the Gollum statue isn’t as desirable as the Argonath or Minas Tirith. 

[Jay 37,369]

I still use my argonath bookends and minas tirith keepsake holder.  i never knew what to do with the gollum statue.  it just lingers around collecting dust

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I still use my argonath bookends and minas tirith keepsake holder.  i never knew what to do with the gollum statue.  it just lingers around collecting dust

Yeah. I think that’s why he’s so cheap! 
 

I got the DVDs as they came out but the gift sets were too expensive for 11/12/13 years old so it’s nice to get them now. Tracked down still sealed sets too. 
 

This is how I’m displaying them 

[Jay 37,369]

I love it!  What's the Leaves of Lorien brooch from again?

[Bilbo 3,709]

That and the Evenstar are both Noble Collection pieces I bought on Amazon. The ring came with the 4K boxset of all 6 films.

[Jay 37,369]

Nice!

[Richard Penna 3,694]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Tracked down still sealed sets too.

 

Me too about 4 or 5 years ago  

 

I actually bought RotK first because I found it very cheap, then the next day I found someone selling all 3 sealed for again, a very reasonable price, so I have two Minas Tiriths. And because my brother and I both bought copies of the DVD back when they came out and he emigrated, it means I have four copies of the EE 

 

Unfortunately one of my Argonaths lost his hand when I was moving things around one day, but it's not like I'm going to sell these onto anyone else so I don't care too much.

 

Agree about Gollum.... he's weird and he currently serves as a bookend for some of my Blu-rays.

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Me too about 4 or 5 years ago  

 

I actually bought RotK first because I found it very cheap, then the next day I found someone selling all 3 sealed for again, a very reasonable price, so I have two Minas Tiriths. And because my brother and I both bought copies of the DVD back when they came out and he emigrated, it means I have four copies of the EE 

 

Unfortunately one of my Argonaths lost his hand when I was moving things around one day, but it's not like I'm going to sell these onto anyone else so I don't care too much.

 

Agree about Gollum.... he's weird and he currently serves as a bookend for some of my Blu-rays.

Imagine a home video release today with 2 bonus discs of extras and a statue along with it? Unthinkable in 2023 unfortunately. 

[Jay 37,369]

Both of my argonaths lost their hands

[TolkienSS 407]

I still have my original LotR swords from back then. Sting, Glamdring, and the limited edition Broken Shards Of Narsil with numbered certificate.

I'd wager those are worth a pretty penny now.

[Jay 37,369]

OK this is technically all Plan 9 and not Shore, but I dunno what other thread is more appropriate

 

My dental hygienist today was playing music while doing my cleaning, and as I was leaving what came on was a weird song medley of all four Plan 9 songs from LOTR and The Hobbit.  It went Green Dragon -> Many Miles To Go -> That's What Bilbo Baggins Hates -> something else as I was leaving

 

Has anybody heard this?  It was kinda lame but also kind of interesting

 

EDIT: I just googled it and it was probably this one, I think

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

I'm still interested by the diegetic (Plan 9 or otherwise) pieces that did not make the cut: Plan 9 had another diegetic Shire song for another scene called "Flowers for Rosy" and while the filmmakers were trying to figure out what to do with the Arwen scene in The Return of the King, they had Viggo Mortensen compose and sing a piece for it.

[Jim Ware 526]

On 26/05/2023 at 9:50 PM, Chen G. said:

I'm still interested by the diegetic (Plan 9 or otherwise) pieces that did not make the cut: Plan 9 had another diegetic Shire song for another scene called "Flowers for Rosy" and while the filmmakers were trying to figure out what to do with the Arwen scene in The Return of the King, they had Viggo Mortensen compose and sing a piece for it.

 

I'm curious about these too! The Arwen scene was in a state of flux for some considerable time -  the Return of the King edit wasn't scored by Shore until early October 2003 (and recorded in late October), well after sessions had already begun and long after other scenes in the first half were completed.

 

[Faleel 5,354]

If you want a laugh:

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

This kind of analysis is exactly what dumbs-down the idea of the leitmotif. "But only if that first time of experiencing the theme was directly connected with such a feeling."

 

I bet we can go through Howard's score practically motif by motif and see that (1) the first time we hear a motif clearly is not actually the first time we hear it: the motifs are forecast in embryonic form before we can possibly recognise that its there, (2) the first time we hear a motif, we can't yet attach them with specific meaning.

[Faleel 5,354]

Is it really an experience if you don't know it?

[Monoverantus 363]

On 21/06/2023 at 12:41 AM, A Farewell to Kings said:

If you want a laugh:

 

I've watched a fair number of Charles Cornell videos, and to be fair, you can't deny his talent. That guy knows his way around the piano. I'd give one foot for his hands and the other for his ear.

On the other hand, it's quite clear that he never does any research. People tell him "hey check out this amazing soundtrack", then he sits down and listens to 2-3 tracks and does that kind of surface-level reaction-type commentary. As opposed to similar music Youtubers like Sideways, Adam Neely, 12tone or 8-bit Music Theory, I always leave a Charles Cornell video wanting more.

(Also, who did that Rohan Fanfare transcription in the thumbnail? )

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

10 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

I'd give one foot for his hands and the other for his ear.

On the other hand

 

Are you implying he's got three hands?

[Chen G. 3,949]

16 hours ago, Signals said:

Is it really an experience if you don't know it?

 

The composer assumes we will feel it with without being aware. Does Howard Shore really expect you to realize that the music when Bilbo blows the smoke Rings is a hint of the music of the Ring? Perhaps an even more radical example, does he really expect you to notice that the motif that welcomes every Dwarf into Bag-End is the same as the motif that ushers the Fellowship into the twenty-first hall of Dwarrowdelf?

 

Another example: When in The Two Towers Gandalf and Aragorn discuss Frodo, and the music goes major, we watching and listening for the first time have absolutely no possible way of knowing that what we're listening to is the antecedent for the destruction of the Ring in the final entry, still hours and hours of music in the future. But Howard assumes that by planting this seed there, when we hear the Ring being destroyed, some recess in the back of our minds will go: "I've heard this before!"

 

We - almost across the board - hear the motifs (1) before we know we hear them and (2) before we could possibly infer what they "mean."

[Faleel 5,354]

The first time we hear that theme is definitely connected to its feeling though.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

On 20/06/2023 at 11:41 PM, Signals said:

If you want a laugh:

 

I honestly thought a 'masterclass in themes' was going to mean revealing all sorts of clever relationships between themes, and things going on underneath themes with more subtle connotations.

 

Instead we learn that dissonance makes you feel unsettled, themes sound sad when played on a sad solo fiddle, and exciting when played in a fanfare! Well I never.

[TolkienSS 407]

On 22/06/2023 at 3:54 PM, Chen G. said:

Perhaps an even more radical example, does he really expect you to notice that the motif that welcomes every Dwarf into Bag-End is the same as the motif that ushers the Fellowship into the twenty-first hall of Dwarrowdelf?

 

 

Wait what?

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

Wait what?

 

You heard me. It also welcomes any pair of Dwarves as they present themselves to Beorn.

 

Just a little bit a scale with a...yep...open fifth at the end.

 

I swear, there are so many moments where I listen to the score going "Oh Howard, you sneaky, sneaky man!" 

[TolkienSS 407]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

You heard me. It also welcomes any pair of Dwarves as they present themselves to Beorn.

 

Just a little bit a scale with a...yep...open fifth at the end.

 

I swear, there are so many moments where I listen to the score going "Oh Howard, you sneaky, sneaky man!" 

 

Have timestamps?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its the motif that opens this track. And then again as each Dwarf enters (Balin gets it with Uillean pipes), and it develops into a little waltzing figure. In fact, the whole piece is basically constructed as this motif and Bilbo's "fussy" music in alternation:

 

 

On the standard album, Howard teases it earlier still, at the end (circa the 2:19 mark) of Old Friends:

 

 

Its not on the album, but try and hear in this scene as the Dwarves appear to Beorn (first at the 2:58 mark) two-by-two, and it becomes the basis of the remainder of the composition:

 

 

If its concealed somewhere else too I wouldn't know: its such a subtle gesture! But that's, of course, the same music as this, heard ten hours (!) after the introduction to Beorn:

 

 

Howard even spoke about this motif. For instance, to Ian Nathan:

 

Quote

The idea in his head was that one day they would be watched in chronological order and when the Fellowship arrives at the wonder of Dwarrowdelf it will trigger memories of Thorin and Co.

 

And to our own KK:

 

Quote

In An Unexpected Journey I did make references to that. If you look at the arrival of dwarves, you’ll hear little fragments of that. And I just connected that in a very subtle ways. Hopefully, when you watch all these movies and you’re into the fourth one (and you’re into Dwarrowdelf), the Dwarven music will relate and have a connection to the culture you’ve seen in The Hobbit.

 

See just what a sneaky man that Canadian is? The longest Ahnung (anticipation) in music history, perhaps?

[TolkienSS 407]

@Chen G.

 

Oh you mean the part that actually comes BEFORE the Dwarrowdelf theme!

I was thinking I was going deaf because I didn't hear it.