Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS

[Chen G. 3,950]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Oh you mean the part that actually comes BEFORE the Dwarrowdelf theme!

 

Yeah, its not that theme, I suppose.

 

And boy oh boy, do I hate these theme names!  From reading the names "Dwarrowdelf theme" and "Moria theme" you'd be at a loss as to what sets the two apart, when in fact the theme we call "Moria" is really a danger motif, associated with the Orcs, the Balrog, the chasms, etc...

 

I get why we use those names, but damn!

[Faleel 5,357]

Well, I mean,

Quote

"Moria" means "the Black Chasm" or "the Black Pit", from Sindarin mor, "dark, black" and iâ, "void, abyss".^{[T 2]} The element mor had the sense "sinister, evil", especially by association with infamous names such as Morgoth and Mordor;

 

Quote

Khazad-dûm is the name of the fabulous city-kingdom of the Dwarves...It is rendered (in "translated Westron") as the Dwarrowdelf, an archaic form of what would be the Dwarves' delving in more modern English.

Sorta fits IMO.

[Alex Shore 83]

I recently discovered the 2001 Cannes Reel, I knew it but hadn't seen it.

After watching it, I am amazed at the number of shots, scenes, dialogues that we have not seen in a definitive edition.

I love the use of the musical temp tracks that they have used throughout the entire reel.

Gandalf's Arrival in Hobbiton has music by Rachel Portman's Emma. Or even the formation of the Fellowship of the Ring in Rivendell with Howard Shore's The Silence of the Lambs.

 

https://rumble.com/v2wjy76-the-lord-of-the-rings-presentation-reel-cannes-film-festival-2001.html

[Holko 9,529]

WHAT! IT'S UP??!?!?!

[Alex Shore 83]

 

 

 

[Jay 37,370]

22 minutes ago, Holko said:

WHAT! IT'S UP??!?!?!

 

[Alex Shore 83]

A special cut or a trailer is never late...

[Chen G. 3,950]

Well, the temp track situation is pretty much as Ian Nathan describes in his book. We have Rachel Portman's Emma, The Silence of the Lambs, Last of the Mohicans, Gothic Power and Gladiator.

[Jim Ware 526]

I tweeted about this in January 2022!

 

 

[Holko 9,529]

59 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Well, the temp track situation is pretty much as Ian Nathan describes in his book. We have Rachel Portman's Emma, The Silence of the Lambs, Last of the Mohicans, Gothic Power and Gladiator.

And Kilar's Dracula

[Alex Shore 83]

26 minutes ago, Holko said:

And Kilar's Dracula

Where?

[Holko 9,529]

27 minutes ago, Alex Shore said:

Where?

4:40-5:12

 

 

 

[Faleel 5,357]

This part always feels like it is a representation of this passage IMO

[Chen G. 3,950]

There are lots of passages where I hear the score evoking Tolkien's prose. The whispered Ringwraith chants rising as they corner the Hobbits on weathertop seem to me to be a musical adaptation of the description of the Barrow wight passage.

[TolkienSS 407]

I find Shore's Paths Of The Dead theme in RotK a letdown compared to the book descriptions.

[Faleel 5,357]

20 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

I find Paths Of The Dead in RotK a letdown compared to the book descriptions.

Fixed

[Chen G. 3,950]

I dunno, I find the Paths of the Dead suitable creepy, music and visuals alike.

 

The bright colour of the Gongs in the middle of all this dark texture is really creepy!

[Brónach 1,302]

10 hours ago, Signals said:

Fixed

 

that's what most of the movie feels like to me. all the editing feels off, eevrything is rushed... so much of it looks like a stage somewhere, even when it's outside...

[Faleel 5,357]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I dunno, I find the Paths of the Dead suitable creepy, music and visuals alike.

 

The bright colour of the Gongs in the middle of all this dark texture is really creepy!

Which is why it's dissapointing. It's just suitably creepy, when it should have been more.... well... more.

[pete 907]

I'm seeing Fellowship of the Ring tonight in concert in Seoul tonight, my second of these kinds of concerts - the first was The Prisoner of Azkaban. I just realized it's been a long time since I listened to Shore's LOTR rings music.

 

I'm as familar with the scores as any others, but it was a nice change to listen to a few pieces last night while walking home. 

 

And actually, I had almost forgotten this Tolkien part of the this forum existed, - I usally just visit the Willians part, the general film music section, and very occassionally the "Other Topics" part. Looking forward to exploring the Bear McCreary threads although I have read all his blog posts...I just haven't watched past the second episode for no reason in particular - well, I guess the show didn't really grab me, but I do remember watching the first episode right when a nap happened upon me, so that played a part in my lack of interest in the show, which does not at all extend to the music.

 

Regarding tonight's concert, I'm curious how the Korean choir will handle the Khazad Dum parts which those Maori deep grunts!

 

This would have been a huge film music week if I had managed to score tickets to next Saturday's Williams concert in Japan. Alas!

[pete 907]

I loved it! The choir sounded great, and the two vocal soloist likewise sounded great. I enjoyed it far more than the Azkaban concert, I think because If I werre to make a list of Williams scores I'd like to see presented like this, Azkaban probably wouldn't make the top 20 as much as I love some of the pieces from it. My girlfriend heard someone complain at intermission that the music was too loud in the mix - which I thought was the point. Having said that, it did drown at the dialogue at times. That didn't bother me though. And poor horn player hit a wrong note during the one quote of the Gondor theme during the council of Elrond scene. But well one note out of millons, it was just noticeable. The Two Towers is scheduled for September 2024, and hopefully that means The Return of the King in 2025. That would surely be a mamoth undertaking!

[Faleel 5,357]

Yeah, had that happen at a Trek 2009 LTP, the final cue before the credits, the trumpet flubbed the Gia main theme quote.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I'm attempting to make 'alternative' OSTs for FotR and RotK to try to address a few issues each has, and I noticed something in Flight to the Ford /Give Up the Halfling and the 'film version' from the rarities.

 

Hopefully someone who's seen the film and the theatrical/extended versions more than I have can offer some insight.

 

Both Flight and Halfling have the brass clusters before going into the soloist again, but only the rarities 'film version' has the extra part when Arwen summons the water (I'd only noticed the lower-key crescendo previously). Is that extra bit actually missing from the CR track? It's got the film ending for the soloist so I wonder whether it's either a different version entirely, or if some editing has been done here.

[Jay 37,370]

The CR track is edited for listening. 

[Jim Ware 526]

The CR track cuts back to the original album edit (at 3:27) for the aleatoric horns, followed by a snippet tracked from elsewhere (3:45-3:58), then cuts back to the film take of Arwen's prayer (at 3:59).

[Faleel 5,357]

8 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

The CR track cuts back to the original album edit (at 3:27) for the aleatoric horns, followed by a snippet tracked from elsewhere (3:45-3:58), then cuts back to the film take of Arwen's prayer (at 3:59).

Where is it tracked from?

 

The dialed out bit from The Nazgul/At the Sign of the Prancing Pony?

[Jay 37,370]

Sounds like the end of Buckleberry Ferry and then a solo chord from somewhere else.

 

Why they did this instead of just sticking to the music stem of the film... interesting choice.

[Faleel 5,357]

Just now, Jay said:

Sounds like the end of Buckleberry Ferry and then a solo chord from somewhere else.

 

Why they did this instead of just sticking to the music stem of the film... interesting choice.

Yeah it was wierd finding out the film version was basically just the Rarities version without the chanting.

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

Sounds like the end of Buckleberry Ferry and then a solo chord from somewhere else.

The brass bit actually kind of sounds like Pass of Caradhras. (When the snow buries them)

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I'd always thought the film version just gave us the lower key section where the horns are - I hadn't paid enough attention to the scene to realise it was actually restoring an entire section of music.

 

FotR really feels like an experimental release before they finally worked out what they were doing with TTT. There are so many edits and bits of tracking.

[Jay 37,370]

2 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

FotR really feels like an experimental release before they finally worked out what they were doing with TTT. There are so many edits and bits of tracking.

 

Yep.  Would love to see it revisited by someone following the Matessino model for giving a score a definitive presentation.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I've only been revisiting it because the FotR OST is my go-to car listening album and its flaws were starting to annoy me, so I was grabbing some CR bits to fix a few bits.

 

That's when I properly noticed the tracking of Parth Galen twice in the Bag End cues (I assume they are replacing parts of Shadow of the Past). In a break from usual programming, I want to hear the intended score for these sections.

[Jay 37,370]

11 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

That's when I properly noticed the tracking of Parth Galen twice in the Bag End cues (I assume they are replacing parts of Shadow of the Past). In a break from usual programming, I want to hear the intended score for these sections.

 

The Parth Galen tracking from 4:00-5:19 of "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" replaces the actual cue Shore recorded for the scene [Gandalf sitting alone in Bag End pondering on the ring, whispering "riddles in the dark", Frodo coming in and picking up the ring as Gandalf says "my precious", etc], which is included on the OST album in "The Shadow of the Past" from 0:00-0:59.

 

The Parth Galen tracking from 2:00-3:39 of "A Conspiracy Unmasked" replaces the actual cue Shore recorded for the scene [Gandalf talking about Sauron covering all the lands in a second darkness and how the ring wants to return to its master, etc], which is completely unreleased and can only be heard in the background of the costume featurette in the EE appendixes.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Ah yes, I suspected that it might be just more than the opening of SotP that we were missing.

 

I was examining those two cues to find the part Shore cut out (or didn't include, depending on how you see it) of the OST track at 2:10 where Gandalf is visiting Minas Tirith and looking through the parchments, and put it back in the OST track. I don't really think it was necessary for Shore to omit that from the album.

 

Plus the Green Dragon / Bilbo performances that shouldn't be there. Two extremely flawed track presentations IMO.

[Faleel 5,357]

52 minutes ago, Signals said:

Yeah it was wierd finding out the film version was basically just the Rarities version without the chanting.

The brass bit actually kind of sounds like Pass of Caradhras. (When the snow buries them)

I also suppose chord could be possibly be from somewhere after 3:08 of Saruman the White and pitch shifted:

 

 

But none of these sound exact enough to entirely convince me.

15 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Plus the Green Dragon / Bilbo performances that shouldn't be there. Two extremely flawed track presentations IMO.

It's Tolkien. his ghost held a gun to the producers heads and wouldn't let them press it without them

32 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

In a break from usual programming, I want to hear the intended score for these sections.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9U25jeV9qMHdnZjg/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-yGI4t5JbdbSrGFYcEDRRkQ

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9YXFJRmZ0WV9reGc/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-YMCu3sK5Fy5Wh5ksgz0jiQ

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9U01BbXBuT0R2aXM/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-Rm9MN3LHg7qln9F-lgwMVg

[Jim Ware 526]

48 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yep.  Would love to see it revisited by someone following the Matessino model for giving a score a definitive presentation.

It's definitely worth a revisit - maybe for the 25th anniversary? It would easily be four discs, perhaps five.

 

 

[enderdrag64 624]

28 minutes ago, Jim Ware said:

It's definitely worth a revisit - maybe for the 25th anniversary? It would easily be four discs, perhaps five.

It would be great to get the theatrical versions of cues too instead of just the extended edition versions

[Faleel 5,357]

1 hour ago, Jim Ware said:

It's definitely worth a revisit - maybe for the 25th anniversary?

 

 

Yes.

[Gollum Cat 24]

9 hours ago, Signals said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9U25jeV9qMHdnZjg/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-yGI4t5JbdbSrGFYcEDRRkQ

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9YXFJRmZ0WV9reGc/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-YMCu3sK5Fy5Wh5ksgz0jiQ

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9U01BbXBuT0R2aXM/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-Rm9MN3LHg7qln9F-lgwMVg

Where did 1:00 and following come from in the first clip? It sounds familiar, but also not something I've heard before.

 

Same for 0:07 in the second clip, and 0:32 in the third? I can tell there's been some processing . . .

8 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

It's definitely worth a revisit - maybe for the 25th anniversary? It would easily be four discs, perhaps five.

I'd buy this in a heartbeat

[Faleel 5,357]

Third clip is from the costume documentary, talking about Saruman, and I think maybe Celeborn?

 

Second clip is from the interactive map/fellowship journey thingy in the EE Appendices edited into a clip from one of the FOTR theatrical DVD menus.

I believe the first clip is from a EE DVD menu, or the rear channels of the scoring or Tolkien/book to script (with Sibley etc.) documentaries on the EE

[Jay 37,370]

16 minutes ago, Gollum Cat said:

0:32 in the third?

 

9 hours ago, Jay said:

The Parth Galen tracking from 2:00-3:39 of "A Conspiracy Unmasked" replaces the actual cue Shore recorded for the scene [Gandalf talking about Sauron covering all the lands in a second darkness and how the ring wants to return to its master, etc], which is completely unreleased and can only be heard in the background of the costume featurette in the EE appendixes.

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

How did I not know about some of this tracking?? I've just updated my personal edits of Shadow of the Past and Flight to the Ford to better match Shore's original intentions.

 

I don't suppose anyone's ever taken a vocal remover to the audio from this costume featurette? Would be nice to get that tracking out of A Conspiracy Unmasked.

 

I guess that third clip above answered my question. Too bad it doesn't have better sound.

[Faleel 5,357]

39 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

I guess that third clip above answered my question. Too bad it doesn't have better sound.

It's possible AI could produce a better result, I will have to check st some point.

 

And my breakdown threads should list all the tracking and edits (aside from today's Revelation about Give up the Halfling.)

[Chen G. 3,950]

15 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Plus the Green Dragon / Bilbo performances that shouldn't be there.

 

Why?

 

Is the diegetic music any less music?

 

The soundtrack isn't for Howard Shore, its for The Lord of the Rings. If its music, and its heard in The Lord of the Rings, it belongs in there. There's still Plan 9 and Viggo Mortensen stuff we're missing!

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I haven't bothered doing anything with Flight yet. My main gripe was wanting to fix the tracking in Keep and Conspiracy - I just put the first minute of Shadow where that belonged in the former and just removed the tracked music from the latter.

 

Might also make sense to end Keep it Secret when Bilbo leaves so that all of the Shadow material is in its own track, although that might make it a bit long.

 

12 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The soundtrack isn't for Howard Shore

 

Umm, it sort of is. I don't mind at all those performances being on the set; I just don't want to hear Gandalf/Bilbo's ditties on top of the score. Put the 'cast' versions as bonus track or something. Thankfully both can be removed entirely using A.I. so it's not a big deal.

 

2 hours ago, Signals said:

It's possible AI could produce a better result, I will have to check st some point.

 

If you were able to send me a raw sound file, I could run it through the website I use and see if it's better.

[Jay 37,370]

6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

How did I not know about some of this tracking?? 

 

Have you noticed yet that the music just before Aragorn throws the torch at the last Ringwraith is tracked in from earlier in the cue? 

 

The actual music Shore wrote for it showed up in a video game. 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I hadn't noticed most of the tracking before because the areas it touches most is well represented on album, and very listenably. I'd paid attention more to the completely unreleased sections and the Moria bits.

 

And to be fair, the actual missing intended parts are minor. I find the cast inclusions and the lack of a definitive set of alternates/theatrical versions more annoying. I think a MM-style expansion goes on my long term wishlist.

[Jay 37,370]

It's #1 on mine!

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

10 hours ago, Signals said:

It's possible AI could produce a better result, I will have to check st some point.

 

And my breakdown threads should list all the tracking and edits (aside from today's Revelation about Give up the Halfling.)

 

Awesome. I'm going through your Fellowship thread right now and it's kind of insane how many variations there are for each cue. By the way, I've sent you a message requesting access to the google drive files you shared in that thread.

[Gollum Cat 24]

Has anybody actually put together a true complete edit of Fellowship of the Ring, undoing the micro edits and all, superior to the actual CR release?

 

I'm really sorry if this has been mentioned before. I dip in from time to time but don't have the memory that some here have.

[Jay 37,370]

1 minute ago, Gollum Cat said:

Has anybody actually put together a true complete edit of Fellowship of the Ring, undoing the micro edits and all, superior to the actual CR release?

 

Yeah

 

1 minute ago, Gollum Cat said:

I'm really sorry if this has been mentioned before. I dip in from time to time but don't have the memory that some here have.

 

There's nothing to be sorry about, this forum exists to discuss film scores over and over again for all of time