Where is the thematic identity in recent film scores?

[Mephariel 451]

On 05/03/2022 at 6:54 PM, Groovygoth666 said:

Was thinking about this the other day, outside of Marvel and Star Wars stuff Disney has been pumping out, there doesn't seem to be a lot of movies from the last few years with a stand out theme. Not every film needs multiple themes but the majority of non franchise film's really seem to be lacking any thematic music, or at least anything that really gets discussed. But then again I haven't seen many non franchise film's from the last few years so could just be projecting!

 

Not sure I agree with Marvel. There are 30 hours of Marvel music and maybe 10 minutes of memorable themes. I am not sure if this is just the younger composers' lack of interest in writing memorable themes or they are just writing generic orchestral music to fit the movies because Marvel films are usually as vanilla as it gets. With that said, there are still a lot of thematic identities, but far less so now in dramas and thriller films. 

 

Some of the memorable themes imo are from TV series now. Title themes from Succession, Game of Thrones, Westworld, Severance, For all Mankind, etc. Nature documentaries have some of the best themes in recent years. "A Perfect Planet" from Ilan Eshkeri. Main themes from Frozen Planet II, Blue Planet II, and Prehistoric Planet. 

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

I can agree that there are too many themes for certain heroes in Marvel, but there are a lot of great and memorable themes in there.

 

It might come down to taste and interest. I'm a massive Marvel fan, ever since a child and I can hum/sing you a lot of the themes from the MCU movies. Not all of it is great, but since 2015 there is some terrific music in the franchise. And if you don't want to hear it or if you're less invested or interested, you might not hear the themes.

I have that with a lot of other scores which people point out as having memorable themes, and I couldn't tell them what they were.

 

I think it all comes down to a matter of taste and interest in the score/composer/project

[Knight of Ren 789]

I also really like some of the Marvel scores, and I think there are some great themes here and there, but the biggest problem, which has already been commented around many times, is the fact that for example, characters like Thor, Iron Man or Captain America have had from 3 to 6 different themes through the films, which makes it a bit harder to make an impact on the popular conscience, as opposed to, for example, the Avengers theme, which has been used in many of the MCU movies with great effect, and even if some might consider that is not a great or original theme, it's quite memorable in how it has been used through the movies.

 

The MCU is a big missed opportunity for a huge musical tapestry of themes for all the different characters and locations, but as it is, there are still some great ideas here and there, and I especially like when a composer gets to do a complete trilogy, like with Giacchino's Spider-Man or Beck's Ant-Man scores, allowing them to build an interesting catalogue of themes, which sometimes cross over to other movies.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

20 hours ago, Knight of Ren said:

The MCU is a big missed opportunity for a huge musical tapestry of themes for all the different characters and locations, but as it is, there are still some great ideas here and there, and I especially like when a composer gets to do a complete trilogy, like with Giacchino's Spider-Man or Beck's Ant-Man scores, allowing them to build an interesting catalogue of themes, which sometimes cross over to other movies.

Age of Ultron being a weird chapter. But I always loved the apparent tip of the hat between Jackman and Beck with Ant-Man (Back uses Jackman's Falcon motif) and Civil War (Jackman uses Beck' Ant-Man theme, or at least the base of it). Karpman did a great job in What If... and I hope it only grows from there.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

On 05/03/2022 at 11:27 PM, Bespin said:

Not every movie needs 6 different themes.

 

Four may suffice in some cases.

[enderdrag64 624]

I haven't checked out too many of the MCU scores in great detail but I was always a big fan of Patrick Doyle's Thor

[Mephariel 451]

On 05/02/2023 at 2:41 PM, Knight of Ren said:

I also really like some of the Marvel scores, and I think there are some great themes here and there, but the biggest problem, which has already been commented around many times, is the fact that for example, characters like Thor, Iron Man or Captain America have had from 3 to 6 different themes through the films, which makes it a bit harder to make an impact on the popular conscience, as opposed to, for example, the Avengers theme, which has been used in many of the MCU movies with great effect, and even if some might consider that is not a great or original theme, it's quite memorable in how it has been used through the movies.

 

The MCU is a big missed opportunity for a huge musical tapestry of themes for all the different characters and locations, but as it is, there are still some great ideas here and there, and I especially like when a composer gets to do a complete trilogy, like with Giacchino's Spider-Man or Beck's Ant-Man scores, allowing them to build an interesting catalogue of themes, which sometimes cross over to other movies.

 

Personally I think you are understating the Avengers theme. The Avengers theme is popular because it is damn catchy. It is simple, but catchy. And yes, having so many different themes for each character makes it harder to make an impact, but I think that is just an excuse. Honestly, outside of the Avengers theme, which Marvel theme is memorable enough to make an impact on popular conscience? You mentioned the Spider-Mans scores. To demonstrate how unmemorable the main theme is, I was arguing with a guy on another forum that Danny Elfman wrote the best Spider-Man theme. He disagreed; he said Giacchino did. He showed me the clip and the clip was playing the 1960s Spider-Man instrumental that Giacchino adapted. I had to show him a video of the theme playing over the Columbia logo, which was the real Spider-Man theme that Giacchino wrote. The guy didn't even realize THAT was the main theme. You also mentioned Ant-Man...I honestly listened to both albums and couldn't hum the melody. I didn't even notice a theme in the movie. With that said, I think there are some good themes in the franchise. I think the Black Panther theme is highly recognizable because of the African influence. I thought Djawadi did a pretty good theme for Eternals. But overall, I think the Marvel scores are as generically orchestral as the films' production formula.

 

To be honest, John Ottman's X-Men theme was much more iconic than any of the Marvel themes besides The Avengers theme. People actually instantly recognized it when the theme made a return in Days of the Future Past and commented how glad they were that the theme came back. Also, Zimmer's Wonder Woman theme was instantly iconic, even with just a brief intro in BvS. The studio immediately used it for the WW film trailer. I would also say that Giacchino wrote a much more instantly recognizable theme in The Batman than any of his themes in Marvel.

 

[TolkienSS 407]

1. Because as time goes on, younger film music composers get influenced more by newer film music that steadily distances itself from its classical roots, which in turn creates even less classical sounding role models and so on.

 

2. Because easy access to good sounding, fucking enormous orchestras and endless instrumentation leads to less attention to detail, shortcuts, and lazier music.

 

3. Because of the recognition that film music has gotten in the public eye, students studying music are more likely to follow a path of film scoring, in the hope of getting more public recognition and money than if they were just following a path of composing sonatas and such ad nauseam to be judged by grey bearded men.

 

4. Because as film producers themselves get younger, they grow up on the sound of the 2000s, so film compsers, to paraphrase the legendary Marco Pierre-White, are being instructed by people with less knowledge than they have.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

What was the question?

[GerateWohl 4,370]

My impression is, that younger generations get less and less interested in music, they hardly listen to music on its own. Of course there are young people playing and listening to music. But something like a musical youth culture like it existed in the second half of the 20th century hardly exists anymore.

So, filmmusic is then rather seen as a sound effect. Nothing worth paying attention to on its own, because music in general is hardly something to pay attention to on its own.

At least my impression. My kids and their classmates are teenagers and they don't listen to music. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

3 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

So, filmmusic is then rather seen as a sound effect. Nothing worth paying attention to on its own

 

That's quite right nowadays. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

19 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That's quite right nowadays. 

Right. But my point is, that this might be nothing specific to film. It might be a general topic for young generations. Music is something that you hear in the background when you go shopping or in a restaurant, in your video games, in movies, but nothing you deal with on its own.

[enderdrag64 624]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

My impression is, that younger generations get less and less interested in music, they hardly listen to music on its own. Of course there are young people playing and listening to music. But something like a musical youth culture like it existed in the second half of the 20th century hardly exists anymore.

So, filmmusic is then rather seen as a sound effect. Nothing worth paying attention to on its own, because music in general is hardly something to pay attention to on its own.

At least my impression. My kids and their classmates are teenagers and they don't listen to music. 

I don't think this is true at all. Maybe kids aren't listening to classical music but they definitely listen to music. I'm in my early 20s and everyone I know (even those a couple years older or younger than me) have Spotify/YouTube Music accounts and listen to some kind of music - usually rap or pop. Very rarely I'll come across someone else who likes either classical (usually was musically trained as a child) or soundtracks (usually from games or movies they really like). I don't know anyone outside of this forum who listens to scores from films/shows they've never seen.

[HunterTech 994]

Yeah, unless there's recent analytics about podcasts and/or other audio mediums beating out music in particular, I really question the idea of interest in songs being at a low in the streaming age. It really is just a matter of shifting tastes, which certainly seems to have reached the "going from classical to rock" phase in regards to film music.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Right. But my point is, that this might be nothing specific to film. It might be a general topic for young generations. Music is something that you hear in the background when you go shopping or in a restaurant, in your video games, in movies, but nothing you deal with on its own.

 

Interesting point, I think there's something in it. Music is now to a larger extent relegated to the background. It's there in many different settings; video games, movies, shopping malls, but as a supporting element - we're not supposed to pay much attention to it.

[Mephariel 451]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Interesting point, I think there's something in it. Music is now to a larger extent relegated to the background. It's there in many different settings; video games, movies, shopping malls, but as a supporting element - we're not supposed to pay much attention to it.

 

I would argued that videogame and film music are more popular than ever because of streaming. Almost every composer has a YouTube channel and can push their own music after each release. Spotify data shows that popular composers like Williams, Zimmer, Giacchino, etc. are getting 4-20 million listeners a month. Popular cues could gather over 100 million listens. The rise of prestige TV has made Main Titles more popular than ever before. From GOT to Succession to Wednesday. The rise of expensive nature documentaries also popularized Live in Concerts where the music is featured prominently. And some BBC documentary cues are just as popular as films. Film music are used in trailers, and major composers are composing for sports teams. Lastly, popular film music concerts like Game of Thrones and Hans Zimmer Live sold out entire arenas. 

 

I don't think there are a lot of data showing that people are not paying attention to music. The Grammys just added a "Best Score Soundtrack for Video Games and Other Interactive Media" award. I don't think an attention seeking organization like the Grammys would add an award that nobody pays attention to.

[Faleel 5,352]

On the flip side people are still commenting that they don't listen to soundtracks because they aren't made to be listened to on their own.

[Drew 590]

I'm extremely bored with the themes in recent scores. I know I'm not alone. Yet I'm surprised how optimistic some soundtrack reviewers are about it. If they had to listen to modern scores ten years ago, they would have lost their minds how bad things are. I mean, Man of Steel got one star reviews from three major soundtrack reviewers back in the day. Nowadays, Man of Steel would be a welcome improvement in average quality. The past few years of declining quality have been something like the boiling frog analogy. You can look back 15 years and suddenly you're absolutely stunned what has happened.

[Fargo 297]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:31 PM, filmmusic said:

I listened to the whole score. I didn't find what I was looking for.

 

[Benhip 21]

13 hours ago, Drew said:

Man of Steel got one star reviews from three major soundtrack reviewers back in the day. Nowadays, Man of Steel would be a welcome improvement in average quality

I think most of recent superhero soundtracks are far better than Man of Steel. Even series like Moon Knight or Loki have great themes. In fact, I just think that the problem is that thematic writing seems to exist only in blockbusters whereas it was everywhere a few years ago.

[Drew 590]

Modern superhero scores are often boring too. Many of the themes are lame.

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

That's your opinion. I don't feel that way. But that's okay

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

9 minutes ago, Drew said:

Modern superhero scores are often boring too. Many of the themes are lame.

 

Agreed. You should make a meme about it.

[Mephariel 451]

1 hour ago, Benhip said:

I think most of recent superhero soundtracks are far better than Man of Steel. Even series like Moon Knight or Loki have great themes. In fact, I just think that the problem is that thematic writing seems to exist only in blockbusters whereas it was everywhere a few years ago.

 

Moon Knight is a better score on album than Man of Steel, I agree. But I think Man of Steel had much better main themes. The problem with today's superhero themes is that while they are melodic, they are missing that extra spice, that extra weight that are necessary to make them truly memorable. I can't explain it too well. I actually like Moon Knight enough to listen to it twice, but I also admit I couldn't hum a note of the main theme even after listening to it twice. This is the same with recent scores like Ant-Man, Thor: Love and Thunder. I thought Giacchino wrote a nice theme for Love and Thunder, but again, I don't remember of a note of it now. I think DCEU actually created more memorable themes, but Marvel has had the better scores.

[Fargo 297]

Black Adam had good themes. I actually liked that album quite a lot, even the remixes. 

[filmmusic 1,829]

Most of you mention action-sci-fi-epic movies.

What about dramas?

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

What about these?

 

 

 

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

Dramas:

Romeo & Juliet - Abel Korzeniowski

The Professor And The Madman - Bear McCreary

Murder On The Orient Express - Patrick Doyle

The Death Of Stalin - Christopher Willis

Knives Out - Nathan Johnson

Being The Ricardos - Daniel Pemberton

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

5 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

The Death Of Stalin - Christopher Willis

 

This has grown on me.

[Drew 590]

Newly Grammy-award winning composer Stephanie Economou discusses her "themes" for a Netflix film she worked on...

 

 

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

Jupiter's Legacy is a series from 2021. And it was already canceled after Season 1. Although I thought it had some cool ideas and the music was quite good.

 

Or does she talk about other things than that in the video?

[Drew 590]

She talks about various things. Just felt the discussion of the "themes" related to this thread about how insultingly bad modern themes are.