Lost

[ashinyobject 0]

Great episode.

I still don't know who to trust.

[Red 75]

This episode reminded me why Locke is my favorite character on the show.

[Ollie 1,059]

Question is, has Locke become a ghost of the island, much like Jack's father? Or is he truly alive?

It seems Christian only appears for short periods, yet Locke was there in the flesh for everyone to see.

Also interesting those boats were there although Sun and Frank took one of them.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Am I the only one who enjoys reading Lostpedia more than watching the show this season?

The episodes are great, don't get me wrong, but the greatness really comes once you remind yourself of all the connections. I need to create a concept map for this show.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think that the survivors of 316 were the people shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc. Was that a new hatch they found? Where the hell was it?

My brother brought up a good point as to why Ben may have killed Locke. Richard and Christian both said he had to die, well maybe it wouldn't have worked if he committed suicide. Jesus didn't commit suicide... It could very well be a biblical reference, something like that.

Also, I love the new rendition of Locke's theme as he was preparing to kill himself.

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah ,you are made to think Ben is pure evil but maybe he won't be in the end ..like Snape in Harry Potter

He could have just let Locke kill himself instead of murdering him 5 minutes later if he just wanted him dead no matter what.

but I was right about the Others being the protectors of the Island

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Yeah....did Ben always plan on killing Locke instead of allowing him to hang himself, or did Locke's mention of Ms. Hawking for some reason push Ben over the edge? He got a weird look at that point.

[Jay 37,421]

Amazing episode! Last week, I was pissed that they introduced so many new mysteries, when it seemed like this season they were really starting to answer mysteries left and right. Tonight introduced new mysteries too, but I don't mind at all.... This time I felt more like I was watching one chapter in a long story.

So many things to ponder......

• So both Ben AND Whidmore want Locke and the rest of the O6 to go back to the island...... because they are both willing to be on the same side against some all-new common enemy.... fascinating. Who could this be? What exactly is this "War" that is coming?
  
• So now we know that Jack/Hurley/Kate flashed to the 70s, and Lapidus, Sun, and Ben did not. But what about Sayid?
  
• This isn't really from this episode, but I thought of it recently. So, Whidmore knows where Eloise Hawking is, since he told Desmond where to find her. Ms Hawking knows how to find the island. Therefore Whidmore should know how to find the island, right? So how did Ben moving it really protect it from Whidmore finding it?
  
• What really spurred Jack to start flying random flights across the world trying to get back to the island? Nothing in the conversation they had seems like it would have done it. I used to think that he wanted to go back because he felt guilty for leaving his half-sister on the island, until they revealed more of the story. I still think there's more to this story.
  
• Was Ben always going to kill Locke, or did he only do so once we heard Locke mention Hawkings' name?
  
• Ben tricked Whidmore into turning the wheel at one point and getting zapped off the island... fascinating.
  
• Is Locke alive-alive on the island, or "undead" like Christian? I am thinking he's really alive, as you can't die until the island is "done" with you.... but the island allowed him to appear dead for a short while
  

Four times in the episode I heard a Giacchino theme that I recognized from the OSTS....

• When Locke talks to Walt
  
• When Locke was telling Kate about Helen
  
• When Locke was at Helen's grave
  
• When Locke was about to hang himself
  

Which themes were each?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Well, Locke has several themes, all of which were woven together throughout the episode. Without watching again, I can't say which one in particular played during those moments. For reference, two of the best OST presentations of his themes are "Crocodile Locke" and "Locke'd Out Again" from Season 1.

[Jay 37,421]

BTW, Ajira Flight 316 appears to have crashed on the small island next to "the" island, the island that has the Hydra station on it. That was Ben's office the new characters were snooping around in in the beginning

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Jason, you forgot Sayid's theme when Locke went to visit him. When Locke was going to kill himself, it was a wonderful new rendition of his main theme.

[Datameister 2,052]

Very interesting episode. I definitely did NOT see Abaddon's death coming. Ben killing Locke...I never considered it until this episode, but once Ben got that look in his eye after he mentioned Jin being alive, I suspected it would happen.

What I love about this episode is that it firmly brought back the ambiguity of Ben and Widmore. Clearly, neither is a good guy, even though each makes himself out to be. Widmore has lately been looking like quite a bad guy, with Ben looking not so bad at all. It was great seeing the other side of the coin for both again - especially because when it comes to being a bad guy, I enjoy watching Ben much more than Widmore. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...the ONLY word that we can always rely on to accurately describe Benjamin Linus is liar.

Also, is it just me, or did Jack seem pretty stoned? I thought he got messed up after meeting Locke...

I'll look forward to watching this again tomorrow.

[Morlock 11]

Great episode, an unexpected change of pace. It seemed like Ben killed Locke only because of Eloise. But the way he changed on a dime raises questions. It could still very well be as Mark said.

Am I the only one who's finding that making sense of the timelines is getting harder and harder as we go on?

Score was superb in the episode, particularly in the hotel room.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

• Was Ben always going to kill Locke, or did he only do so once we heard Locke mention Hawkings' name?
  

An interesting question. My theory is he wasn't, but it was already determined Locke had to die and his murder was the universe course-correcting for Locke's failed suicide attempt.

[Incanus 5,722]

A great episode. I just love to watch any scene Ben is in. Seeing that liar trying to play with all the characters and continually further his own cause is just chilling. Really this series would have been so much less interesting without him. Emerson's portrayal is brilliant. The audience is now just as baffled as the characters which is the bad guy, Ben or Widmore, or possibly both. Both have wide smiles and reassuring glint in their eye when it suits their agenda but in the next moment both become cold and ruthless killers.

It was very sudden that Ben decided to kill Locke. He was on his knees begging Locke not to kill himself but the change to the opposite direction happened really the moment Locke mentioned Eloise Hawkings. He was clearly not bent on killing Locke there and then but the information made him do some quick thinking. Perhaps Locke was of no use to him after that, now that he had Jin's ring and knew something about the places and people Locke had visited and possibly because he knew that Locke had to die at some point. So Locke was worth more to him dead than alive. His death would be a catalyst for the change of heart of Jack and so pull the other O6 with him one way or the other.

[Ollie 1,059]

I've never trusted Ben.

I wouldn't be suprised if he lied to Sayid and was the one who had his wife killed.

It was obvious he was going to kill John, because Jin asked John not to tell Sun he was alive yet Ben did. Outside of John killing Naomi he doesn't have it in him to take another life, not even his own.

And thruthfully we don't know much about Widmore, all we have are words of others and a video shot from a distance that doesn't tell us too much. We saw a young Widmore kill a man on the island but it appears those who belong to the Others will do anything to protect the island, that's why John killed Naomi. Apparently Widmore, unless he's lying, was one of the original inhabitants of the island.

Now the question is do you age once you've been off the island for an extended period of time? Richard has remained the same yet Hawking and Widmore have aged.

Perhaps Widmore's spurning of Desmond a few seasons ago wasn't because he felt Penny was too good for him but as a protective measure because he knew Desmond had to go to the island.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I was hoping Abbaddon would live long enough for his story to be explained. He hired Naomi to go the island, and he is also the one that hired the woman in Berlin to kill Sayid.

[Datameister 2,052]

Why do you say Abaddon recruited Elsa, Koray? (Unless your logic involves a spoiler.)

I'm rather surprised that y'all are convinced Ben decided to kill Locke only when he mentioned Eloise. I've only seen the episode once (not for long!), so I can't claim to have studied it very closely yet. But when I saw it, I had no knowledge of what was going to happen, yet Ben's reaction to Locke's mentioning of Jin, not Eloise, was what set me on edge. Maybe I'm off on this...I'll find out when I watch the episode again today. But I think Ben genuinely wanted to stop John's suicide attempt so that they could assemble all the O6 together, like he said. But Ben didn't care for the news of Jin's survival and Locke's decision not to bring Sun back. At that point, he was still in front of and below Locke, which meant there was no easy way for him to kill him. So he kept talking to him, kept him at ease, let him sit down in a chair, relax, while Ben figured out what to do. The mention of Eloise, IMO, was just the final straw. Or perhaps just the last bit of information Ben needed from him.

Now watch me eat my words after I view the episode again.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Why do you say Abaddon recruited Elsa, Koray? (Unless your logic involves a spoiler.)

Elsa had an employer, just like Ben was Sayid's employer. When he killed Elsa, she had a wrist band exact to the one Naomi was wearing. Abaddon was Naomi's employer, so I connected the dots from there.

[Datameister 2,052]

I believe the producers confirmed that the wrist bands were a coincidence that served only to stir up memories in Sayid. I was assuming Widmore hired her - Abaddon seems to have been kind of a middleman, a recruiter.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Oh ho. I thought it was neat that Widmore had Abaddon go to Locke after his accident to convince him to go on the walkabout which would eventually lead to him to get on the island.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The producers have gone on record saying the wrist band's similarity was a coincidence.

[Jay 37,421]

Datameister I'm surprised you haven't responded to my themes question from the previous page

[Datameister 2,052]

Sorry about that, Jason! I'm gonna start watching the episode again now, but if I remember correctly, the first three are all one of Locke's two themes - I've been referring to it as his second theme on Lostpedia, though technically, there's a hint of it introduced before his first theme, way back in "Walkabout." Anyway, yeah, that theme generally represents sad things that have happened to Locke, whereas his other theme is more about his cool-hunter/warrior-and-protector-of-the-Island side.

[QMM 4]

I love the little two-note piece of music that's been popping up in the last two episodes, with this one when Ben confronted Locke.

[Datameister 2,052]

That's part of what I've been calling Eloise's theme. Not sure why Giacchino used it in that scene, but it's showed up three other times this season, always for Eloise, not just in the last two episodes.

[QMM 4]

This is the most extensive site I've seen related to the themes and motifs of the show

[Datameister 2,052]

This is the most extensive site I've seen related to the themes and motifs of the show

No offense to whoever created that listing, but it's got some problems - mainly that it tends to list slight variations as whole new themes, as well as some material that was only used once or twice. I value humility, but the simple truth here is that I prefer the list I started on Lostpedia. It lacks actual audio samples...but we're keepin' it legal.

EDIT: Also, I like how he makes a bunch of Giacchino's music freely available and then says of his own work, "Reproduction whether in part or full is strictly prohibited without prior written permission." Oh, the irony.

[Jay 37,421]

Just listened to the official podcast for the episode..... not much to report except that they confirmed that we will find out what happened to Aaron in episode

#11, "Whatever Happened Happened" which airs April 1st.

[QMM 4]

This is the most extensive site I've seen related to the themes and motifs of the show

No offense to whoever created that listing, but it's got some problems - mainly that it tends to list slight variations as whole new themes, as well as some material that was only used once or twice. I value humility, but the simple truth here is that I prefer the list I started on Lostpedia. It lacks actual audio samples...but we're keepin' it legal.

EDIT: Also, I like how he makes a bunch of Giacchino's music freely available and then says of his own work, "Reproduction whether in part or full is strictly prohibited without prior written permission." Oh, the irony.

Still, it's not a bad site.

[Jay 37,421]

This is the most extensive site I've seen related to the themes and motifs of the show

Sweet, this should help me figure all this out a lot! Thanks!

.... did Jack really not have his own theme until season 3?

.... the theme he uses for Nikki and Paulo was really introduced in the Pilot episode?

.... Wow, the Oceanic Six theme is good stuff. They need to release a Season 4 soundtrack stat!

It would really be cool if he listed ALL the themes used in each episodes, instead of the ones just introduced in each episode.

[Datameister 2,052]

.... did Jack really not have his own theme until season 3?

That's correct. Stunning, isn't it?

.... the theme he uses for Nikki and Paulo was really introduced in the Pilot episode?

Yep. Right as Kate and Sayid look up toward the hills they'll have to climb.

It would really be cool if he listed ALL the themes used in each episodes, instead of the ones just introduced in each episode.

I'm very slowly working on incorporating that sort of description into a Music section at the bottom of the episodes' Lostpedia articles. Check out the first few episodes of season 1 to see what I mean.

I'll say it again...I'm biased, but I'm trying not to be, and I honestly just think the list we've been working on at Lostpedia is better. There are some downright errors on that other site, and some themes/motifs you see listed really are just passages that Giacchino wrote for specific scenes and maybe reprised once or twice in different episodes. Whoever compiled that list is really pushing the definition of "theme."

Also, Jason, I think it was you who suggested a list of just the major themes - I'm working on that right now. Trying to compile a list with descriptions, episode titles, and sheet music transcriptions.

[Jay 37,421]

Joe, that sounds AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait to check it out!

[Datameister 2,052]

I hope it'll work out...I'm trying to do it all within Finale, but I'm having some trouble getting the layout to work right. We'll see...

[Olivier 5]

Also, is it just me, or did Jack seem pretty stoned? I thought he got messed up after meeting Locke...

I'm not too sure of the chronology, so a quick look at Lostpedia would be better, but I think it started with Kate hiding things from him (keeping her promise to Sawyer), and Christian appearing to him.

Another chronology I need to check is Sayid's, and his involvement with Ben, which he had put an end to by the time Locke visited him. All this part needs explaining, as we still don't exactly know what the purpose of it all was. Then something else happened that made Sayid visit Hurley.

Jason: great point.

Since Widmore does know where to find Mrs Hawking, why not get back to the Island through her?

Ben did say once you left the Island, you could never return, but still... Did Widmore believe it?

Dit he attempt it with Mrs Hawking and fail before? Maybe some people had left too, like the O6, and he was never able to get a single one to return to the Island, which would have been his passport to returning, like it appears to have been for Ben.

Abbadon's death was totally unexpected.

As for Ben killing Locke-- wow. The way it was set up managed to surprise us -saving Locke, then strangling him). Locke's mention of Mrs Hawking does seem to have been the prime reason; I do believe he truly intended to keep Locke alive, but changed his mind at this moment.

Why did this trigger off such an act? We're still missing something.

The episode was a great as expected, and the Locke/Ben scene was wonderful-- well written and directed, and very well acted.

Ben's "I'll miss you. I really will" was a very nice way of concluding the scene.

Seeing Locke on the beach was quite a surprise; I thought he would reappear later, at the end or next week, as an apparition; he seems to really have been resurrected, in a different way than Christian's (but then, Christian-- or Christian's avatars-- and his relationship to Jacon remain a big mystery).

Widmore? Well, the guy did send a freighter full of mercenaries armed up to the teeth, with orders to slaughter everyone one-- even Faraday knew they had not come to save anyone.

Ben (and Widmore, to a lesser extent only because we have not seen that much of him so far, not enough for true complexity to emerge) is a great character because he is so complex, unpredictable, and not just a straight "bad guy".

Alias' Sloane (another great casting decision) was interesting in this way too; they managed to make him human, fragile, and good, and not just an evil trickster.

Datameister:

Ben may know (before the scene on the pier) that Sun wants to kill him because she holds him responsible for Jin's death; learning he is still alive is a very valuable information to him, and no reason to kill Locke; he intended to reveal it himself, so that Locke could keep his promise to Jin.

Joe, please do include samples for the themes; this is the easiest solution. If you're worried about copyrights, try getting in touch with Michael Giacchino, either directly or through Chris Tilton. This would contribute to the promotion of the music and the series, so everyone should be happy.

[Datameister 2,052]

Joe, please do include samples for the themes; this is the easiest solution. If you're worried about copyrights, try getting in touch with Michael Giacchino, either directly or through Chris Tilton. This would contribute to the promotion of the music and the series, so everyone should be happy.

If you're talking about the sheet music, that's already in motion, and it's got to count as fair use, since I'm just transcribing short passages by ear and redistributing them in a nonprofit way. If you're talking about audio snippets...well, I'm not even sure how I'd do that in the PDF file I'm putting together or in the Lostpedia article. I suppose I'd do it through links to separately hosted files, but that could get messy. In any case, the list is pretty clear about which themes are being described, I think - there shouldn't be much ambiguity, as long as one has the soundtracks and knows that the episodes can be viewed on abc.com.

By the way, the layout issues I was having are mostly taken care of. Looks like this thing is gonna work! I've already got the mystery theme (what I formerly called the main theme), the main theme (formerly the survivors' theme), the first two traveling themes, and Locke's first theme, though I have work to do (haha!) on all of them, and many more to do after those. But this is definitely looking like a feasible project.

EDIT: All righty, folks, here's the first page as it currently looks. Let me know what you think in terms of format and presentation and so forth - anything jumping out as needing change? If you like it the way it is (or if I strongly disagree with your critique ), let me know, and I'll go ahead and do the rest. I've identified 21 major themes after these that I intend to include.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OAOKX8RL

[Datameister 2,052]

Boy, I wasn't expecting such a strong reaction! Anyway, I decided to just keep plowing ahead. I'm pretty happy with how it's going, and hopefully it'll be helpful to a few people out there. It's good practice in advanced layout design in Finale for me, at the very least.

Also, I'm rewatching "Confirmed Dead," and Charlotte's giddy reaction as she looks around in the water makes a lot more sense now. She's excited to be back in a place that she had been told was imaginary for years. The presence of the polar bear in Tunisia makes more sense, too, of course, though I'd already thought about that. The real question, though, is...why on Earth would a polar bear be turning that wheel? I guess the DHARMA Initiative would have needed a very large and strong guinea pig to see what would happen when the wheel was pushed...which means that the Island has been moved before...

[QMM 4]

One of the theories was that DHARMA trained polar bears to push the wheel so they wouldn't have to leave a man in there

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I just had a look at the design Joe, and it's great...I can't wait to see the finished product!

And yeah, I've thought about the polar bear ending up in Tunisia...it seems silly to imagine the bear actually moving the island, but you could be right about them just needing a test subject. It obviously was involved with the wheel room somehow. And regarding the island having moved before, my brother had an interesting thought about that the other night. Since electromagnetic energy seems to be the source of all the time shifting, and we know the Swan station was meant to prevent a buildup of said energy, it could be that the code and button were intended to keep the island from moving and traveling through time. And if that's the case, it would mean that the island moved through space and/or time right as Oceanic 815 crashed, and again at the end of Season 2 when Desmond turned the fail safe key (the weird light in the sky at that time was similar to the Season 5 flashes). I don't know what all that could mean if true, but it's an interesting idea.

[Datameister 2,052]

But the wheel doesn't have to be continuously pushed, QQM. The Island still chugs away through time, albeit with a slight disconnect from the rest of the world, without the wheel moving at all. It wasn't moving when Ben went in there, but time was still passing, and even though it didn't quite match up with the outside world, it was still close enough.

EDIT: One issue with that theory, Ray, is that Penny used that flash at the end of season 2 to get closer to finding the Island. That would seem to entail that it did not move through time or space on that occasion.

[Red 75]

It would seem that Dharma had to have moved the island at one point to teleport the polar bear to Tunisia, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Remember Ben had to destroy the time displacement pod and break a big sheet of ice just to get inside the wheel chamber. I don't think anyone had been in there before Ben in a very long time.

[Datameister 2,052]

Agreed. Or perhaps there's another pocket of energy that can do similar things...let us not forget, the polar bear in Tunisia had a Hydra collar on, which means that it at least spent part of its life on the other island. I'm sure they could have transported the bears between the islands, but perhaps the polar bear simply encountered another weird spot besides the donkey wheel area.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

EDIT: One issue with that theory, Ray, is that Penny used that flash at the end of season 2 to get closer to finding the Island. That would seem to entail that it did not move through time or space on that occasion.

Yes. And I'm pretty sure that's not the only issue.

Another random thought I had recently is that, with all the parallels between Flights 815 and 316 and the possibilites opened up by time travel, it would be interesting if 815 had also actually been an attempt to return someone (like Christian Shephard??) to the island a la "dead" Locke.

[Datameister 2,052]

Another random thought I had recently is that, with all the parallels between Flights 815 and 316 and the possibilites opened up by time travel, it would be interesting if 815 had also actually been an attempt to return someone (like Christian Shephard??) to the island a la "dead" Locke.

Haha, it's certainly an interesting idea, but it's just too full of holes, IMO. The Others would have known about the other flight(s), too, I'd imagine...

[Ollie 1,059]

That is a good point, but yeah there are holes. I would imagine the reason we see Christian is because Jacob, or the Island, can't use a live body to "take over" and move about.

I'm sure there's another reason I'm overlooking.

[Datameister 2,052]

I believe I've finished the 16 major themes of the first season now! I actually only have eleven more themes I'm planning on doing for the time being...there aren't as many major melodic ideas introduced after the first season, though there are certainly still some VERY important ones, such as Ben's theme.

[Incanus 5,722]

Great job and very useful! I am a complete novice when it comes to the music of Lost and have difficulty spotting the said legion of themes beyond the most obvious ones. I am usually following the plot so closely that the more subtle thematic goes past my ears without registering. The latest episode is a prime example of this. I did not even know Locke has multiple themes/motif

[Datameister 2,052]

Then you're exactly the kind of person this is geared toward! I was like that too until last year, when I made a concerted effort to finally sort out all his themes. I have a MUCH easier identifying them now without losing my focus on the events in the story.

[Datameister 2,052]

Here's a much more complete version! Still a lot left to do, though. Again, if you see errors, ambiguities, mistakes, whatever, PLEASE let me know. And if you're going to find this useful, I'd like to hear that, too - it's nice to be able to gauge your interest a bit.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3OSGHJPD

[ashinyobject 0]

That is really impressive

Keep up the great work!