Star Wars Disenchantment

[Demodex 557]

The cue written for that scene is pretty good. Unfortunately it's barely in the movie. 

[mstrox 6,651]

Haven't rewatched the originals in about five years, except for Jedi which I rewatched a little less than 3 years ago.

 

Everything after the arrival at Endor in JEDI is really good to me, especially the Death Star scenes.  The Jabba scenes are hit and miss, and the whole movie grinds to a halt in the middle.

 

I really like The Last Jedi, and the objective points Mattris points to are just his personal gripes, most of which I do not share.  I did/do have some gripes with the film on first viewing, which could be found in the film's spoiler thread.  The second viewing smoothed over some of them - mostly the gripes that were just like, "I wish they hadn't done X like that."   I'll have to watch it a third time to hone my perspective on the movie.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Didn't anyone else like that bit where that lady crashed the ship into that other ship and then everything went really quiet?

[mstrox 6,651]

I did.  It was emotional and very visually striking.

[Holko 9,526]

B-b-but it broke Star Wars forever!

 

 

It was great. Especially the sudden quiet at the cinema, you could hear "wow"s all around.

[Chen G. 3,949]

8 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Didn't anyone else like that bit where that lady crashed the ship into that other ship and then everything went really quiet?

 

It didn't go quiet, it went entirely mute.

 

Usually in movies, even when you want to create quiet, you maintaim some ambient sound, a room tone.

 

Its clear that Johnson wasn experimenting with ambience through the film, kicking it way down for the conversations between Kylo and Rey and for the moment where Rose's sister is knocked out. That moment with the suicide run was the culmination of that: a good few seconds with no sound at all. Quite effective.

 

Does it absolve the movie of its faults? Hell no. In fact, one of my main issues is that the film didn't end there.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

1 hour ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Another thread title change?

 

They need to change it back to what it was. We need a place for the airing of the grievances. I've gotta lot of problems with you people, and you're gonna hear about it!

 

You, Jay. Your website stinks!

 

1 hour ago, Nick Parker said:

When's the last time all of us have watched the originals? I think, in full, it's been about six years for me. I don't know the next time I'll ever watch them.

 

The only time I watch the OT is when there's a new or updated fan restoration (e.g. Harmy, 4K77) of the unaltered originals.  And in those cases I'm mostly watching for how well they did the colour correction, etc.  I'll never watch the abomination that is the Blu-Ray's or DVD's again. Certainly no one who respects Williams score has any business watching the DVD's.

 

Some of the fan restorations are amazing.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

20 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

The only time I watch the OT is when there's a new or updated fan restoration (e.g. Harmy, 4K77) of the unaltered originals

 

For whatever reason I'm intimdated to watch those.

[Holko 9,526]

What ARE you watching then?

[mstrox 6,651]

There are so many things I legit like about the special editions that I wouldn't want the unaltered release personally.  But if torn between the "unaltered release" and the version with CGI Jabba the Hutt squelching all around, I'd probably prefer the former.

 

Until an official release, though, I'll just stick with the official Blu-rays, flaws and all.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Last Starfighter, of course!

1 minute ago, Holko said:

What ARE you watching then?

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

8 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

For whatever reason I'm intimdated to watch those.

 

Huge file sizes put you off?

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

The only "change" I like in the Special Editions is adding the windows to Cloud City. It really opens up those claustrophobic hallways, and of course a place like that would have windows.

 

But those few shots aren't worth putting up with all rest of the bad CGI, bad colour grading, bad sound mix, pointless added scenes, erasing of performances, etc., 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 minutes ago, Holko said:

What ARE you watching then?

 

Last Star Wars home video release I have is the 2004 DVD set.

1 minute ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

 

Huge file sizes put you off?

 

That actually is one factor, yeah.

[Holko 9,526]

The best parts are those that you don't notice - erased matte lines (even if some shots are done by darkening, with garbage mattes still existing in the shot), correcting bluescreen bleeding... Luke and the Rancor are horrific in the theatrical, not charming. But none of it is worth putting up with destroying everything else.

 

Tough these unintended effects problems are mostly present with Jedi, but as far as I remember, nothing was done to the space battle with its apparating TIEs and transparent explosions. When I watched 4K77, I haven't noticed a single shot that I had any problem with as to the quality of its execution.

[mstrox 6,651]

I like the more dynamic final battle.  I like the updated Wampa scene in Empire.  I prefer the Ewok Celebration to Yub Nub.  I like the minor effects clean-ups - removals of mattes, etc -  throughout.  Until the Special Editions, all I had were shoddy VHS dubs, though, so I have no real nostalgia to the original versions.  I wasn't born until the year after Jedi came out.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

correcting bluescreen bleeding...

 

Ironically those show up with a vengeance in ROTS...

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

The best parts are those that you don't notice - erased matte lines (even if some shots are done by darkening, with garbage mattes still existing in the shot), correcting bluescreen bleeding... Luke and the Rancor are horrific in the theatrical, not charming. But none of it is worth putting up with destroying everything else.

 

Cleaning up the matte lines, blue screen bleeding, etc. is all something that you'd expect in restoring the film for a prestige home video release. Purists will object to even those things, but I don't think it's reasonable to believe that LFL would ever release Star Wars without "fixing" that stuff. Same with "Episode IV"...even with a proper restored GOUT release, they'll never put out a version that isn't called A New Hope.

 

And if that was the extent of what they did, I'd be fine with it as long as the colours and sound mix was right, and they left everything else alone.

[Holko 9,526]

I dunno, it's a real slippery slope... 

How does one even define the original Empire? The 70mm with a shorter finale and worse audio choices and which the SEs were mostly based off of or the 35mm which has the extended Nebulon-B with Falcon shot with tracked music and all the classic lines we hate they removed like "Lucky you don't taste very good"?

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

12 minutes ago, mstrox said:

There are so many things I legit like about the special editions

 

I'm afraid you'll be banned from JWFan forever now. Let's keep in touch via twitter.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I'm afraid you'll be banned from JWFan forever now. Let's keep in touch via twitter.

 

Don't be silly. Neither of you would get banned for such a thing.

 

You should be (for that and many other reasons). But you won't.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

The only "change" I like in the Special Editions is adding the windows to Cloud City. It really opens up those claustrophobic hallways, and of course a place like that would have windows.

  

But those few shots aren't worth putting up with all rest of the bad CGI, bad colour grading, bad sound mix, pointless added scenes, erasing of performances, etc., 

 

As someone who didn't grow up with those films, I don't mind a lot of the changes. I don't conceptually mind "tweaked" versions of films (e.g. Alien) and its certainly a common practice in Hollywood, and there's something to be said for George Lucas being as thorough as he was. Specifically, I do like the added windows to Cloud City, as well the inclusion of Ian McDiarmid as the emperor in The Empire Strikes Back.

 

 

However, I find it mind-boggling that the director has effectivelly went out of his way to make the original cut of the film unavailable. And at the end of the day, I have to consider his Special Editions on the whole to be failure, because with them he intended to do three major things:

1. Keep his older films up with contemporary production value standards: this one's a partial failure. Some effects are effectivelly cleaned up, but other shots add new effects that for the most part do not at all mesh with the aesthetics of the rest of the film, and often just don't look good.
2. Bolster the series' continuity, and tie the prequels all the closer to the first three films: utter failure, this. The different entries are stylistically too removed from each other, the plot inconsistencies so numerous and the overarching story so haphazard that it was never really going to work.
3. Recontextualize the first three films to be a part of Anakin's story instead of Luke's: utter failure, again. Its one thing to add three prequel films to your series. But to use them to try and retroactivelly change what the previous films were about has to be the biggest over-reach in the history of serialized cinema.

 

1 hour ago, Holko said:

I dunno, it's a real slippery slope... 

How does one even define the original Empire? The 70mm with a shorter finale and worse audio choices and which the SEs were mostly based off of or the 35mm which has the extended Nebulon-B with Falcon shot with tracked music and all the classic lines we hate they removed like "Lucky you don't taste very good"?

 

Yeah, George Lucas was more vigorous with the changes than people realize. He was tweaking his films as early as the time between the initial, limited release and the wide release, and continued changing them as he was issuing different sound mixes of each film during their theatrical runs.

[mstrox 6,651]

Nobody ever talks about Lucas making the changes to Empire and Jedi, even though he didn't direct them.  Sure, he developed them, exec produced them, and OWNS (well, owned) them.  But he didn't direct them. 

 

I don't know how much of a say or care Kersh had in the changes in Empire.  But by the time of the Special Editions, Marquand was long gone - and there were changes made to that movie that are very substantive.  The Special Editions are not directors' cuts in the slightest, but producer's cuts or studio head cuts.  If this were to happen to almost any other movie, Internet mouth breathers (like me, sometimes) would be up in arms.

 

Something that's always irked me the teeniest, tiniest bit.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

What the hell is "Nebulon-B"? Poison gas?

[mstrox 6,651]

It's a hemorrhoid medication

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

A likely story.

 

My guess was some sport enhancement drug.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

3 hours ago, Holko said:

How does one even define the original Empire? The 70mm with a shorter finale and worse audio choices and which the SEs were mostly based off of or the 35mm which has the extended Nebulon-B with Falcon shot with tracked music and all the classic lines we hate they removed like "Lucky you don't taste very good"?

 

True!

 

And does one define the original Star Wars? The one with or without the missed grappling hook throw?

[Mattris 416]

On 10/1/2018 at 5:42 AM, Stefancos said:

See! You're starting to get it! Well done.

 

I'm glad we could agree. But, I'm not oblivious to your tone. To say I'm "starting to get it" is patronizing. From what I've gathered over these 55 pages is that I'm more aware of the events of TLJ - and why the film was written as it was - than everyone here. The only way you could know more than me about TLJ story and characters is by having read its novelization, which is kind of a cop-out way to explain a film's short-comings.

 

On 10/1/2018 at 5:44 AM, Holko said:

I didn't even think about it as the overplayed archetypical self-fulfilling prophecy until now. It's there at its core, but goes down in seconds instead of dragging it out for decades as usual, and creates the villain instead of the hero. Thanks, Mattriss, that was actually a good one.

 

You're welcome!

 

On 10/1/2018 at 6:36 AM, Demodex said:

@Mattris, if you haven't even read any of the other threads regarding the movie I don't see why I should have to put in so much effort to tell someone so disinterested why I liked it.

 

I've told you enough.  I loved the characters, the action, the humor, and the surprise at the end.  I've read what you don't like about it and I told you I disagree.  Nuff said.

 

I asked you to explain why you liked TLJ. Referring me to others' comments/threads are not you answering my request. Saying you "loved the characters, the action, the humor, and the surprise at the end" is not "enough" ... and could be anyone's answer to why they liked practically any film. If you don't - or can't - explain why you "disagree" with my issues... or specifically elaborate on why you liked the film, well, that's on you. Are you incapable... or just lazy?

 

On 10/1/2018 at 6:43 AM, Stefancos said:

Matriss spends all his time here talking about something he hates.

 

Internet conversation in the Trump era!

 

I don't just "hate" the film. I hate the film-makers' social-driven agenda inserted into the films. I hate what they've done to the franchise. I hate their general attitude towards the fans ("We don't care", insults, accusations, etc). And I hate the division among the fans... that they caused. I also hate that some of you seem to be enjoying making fun of me while Star Wars is burning.

 

On 10/1/2018 at 6:51 AM, Demodex said:

Ok, it certainly could have done without the milking scene. It's not a flawless film. 

 

On 10/1/2018 at 6:52 AM, Stefancos said:

It's part of the demythification of Luke in the early part of the film. Its vital.

 

It was just another example of emasculation, a prominent theme in TLJ.

 

On 10/1/2018 at 6:53 AM, Holko said:

It's Luke trying to disgust Rey away, look at his face. We are also disgusted as the audience, and getting disillusioned alongside her.

 

I count this in the same category as Rey's stilted delivery of "we need you because Kylo Ren is strong with the Dark Side of the Force" and Willie's screaming being annoying. They're disgusing/bad/annoying because they're supposed to be that!

 

For me, that line was the worst-written and worst-delivered of all the Disney Star Wars films. Why do you think it was  supposed to be bad?

 

On 10/1/2018 at 6:56 AM, Chen G. said:

Its part of the demythification of Star Wars, in general.

 

But too often the humor in the film is pushing the bounderies, I find. 

 

More like, part of the ruining of Star Wars.

 

Almost every instance of (attempted) humor in TLJ is distracting, pathetic, embarrassing, gross, pathetic, ridiculous, or tone-deaf.

 

On 10/1/2018 at 7:15 AM, Demodex said:

It was better than most of the attempts at humor in the prequels. Those movies were just unintentionally funny. 

 

George Lucas' sense of humor in the prequels is a bit childish or dry - but very sporadic, unlike the pervasive usage of humor in TLJ.

 

16 hours ago, Mattris said:

I don't give a flying flip about a director "fulfilling an artistic vision". I just want a great Star Wars movie!

 

On 10/1/2018 at 9:48 AM, Steve McQueen said:

You can't have the second without the first. 

(You can have the first without the second, though.)  

 

Obvious to me, the latter is exactly what happened with TLJ.

 

On 10/1/2018 at 11:12 AM, mstrox said:

Haven't rewatched the originals in about five years, except for Jedi which I rewatched a little less than 3 years ago.

 

Everything after the arrival at Endor in JEDI is really good to me, especially the Death Star scenes.  The Jabba scenes are hit and miss, and the whole movie grinds to a halt in the middle.

 

I really like The Last Jedi, and the objective points Mattris points to are just his personal gripes, most of which I do not share.  I did/do have some gripes with the film on first viewing, which could be found in the film's spoiler thread.  The second viewing smoothed over some of them - mostly the gripes that were just like, "I wish they hadn't done X like that."   I'll have to watch it a third time to hone my perspective on the movie.

 

JJ tossed the 'sequel trilogy' ball to RJ... who proceeded to take a big crap on it. The film was a malicious endevour and disgrace to Star Wars. Don't waste your time. Just wait for Episode 9 to see if they can salvage this travesty of a situation they've created.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Hey @mstrox,I have an idea! You should watch The Last Jedi a third time. I've heard it's pretty good...as hell, even!

[mstrox 6,651]

No he’s right.  Everybody on this forum is a dumb idiot compared to him, the brain genius.  I should definitely avoid a third watch of a movie that I enjoyed the first time and enjoyed more the second time.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I've seen it three times, four even. Should I turn back now?

[Mattris 416]

25 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

Hey @mstrox,I have an idea! You should watch The Last Jedi a third time. I've heard it's pretty good...as hell, even!

 

I've heard that it broke the Star Wars fandom... intentionally. I have a better idea: You should avoid watching The Last Jedi ever again... since just about anything else would be a better use of your time.

[SteveMc 2,674]

34 minutes ago, Mattris said:

It was just another example of emasculation, a prominent theme in TLJ.

Also a prominent theme in aging.

 

5 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

I've seen it three times, four even. Should I turn back now?

Turn back while there is hope for you're soul, Jerry!

 

 

[mstrox 6,651]

Enjoying it five times is fine.  Six times is questionable.  Seven times, well that’s a bridge too far.  Every time you watch it, you get stupider and Mattris, the only person alive who understands TLJ, gets smarter.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Just now, Steve McQueen said:

Turn back while there is hope for you're soul, Jerry!

"And He shall smite the wicked* and cast them into the Pit…"

 

*-those who watch TLJ more than 2 times

 

These are our souls we're talking about. No more funny business.

3 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Every time you watch it, you get stupider and Mattris, the only person alive who understands TLJ, gets smarter.

My only love sprung from my only hate!

Too early seen unknown, and known too late!

Prodigious birth of love it is to me,

That I must love a loathed enemy.

[SteveMc 2,674]

1 minute ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

These are our souls we're talking about. No more funny business.

No more funny stuff! 

It is time we get serious.  Mattris wants objectively bad?  Then objectively bad he will receive.  

 

Behold!!

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

The greatest music video ever, or at least a pretty cool one, is one I'm sure you'll be aware of. The references, the puppet heads, and a dang catchy tune with the ever delightful Phil Collins and Co.

 

49 minutes ago, Mattris said:

George Lucas' sense of humor in the prequels is a bit childish or dry - but very sporadic, unlike the pervasive usage of humor in TLJ.

I think all of the Prequels was quite laughable. Hence, The Last Jedi was much better balanced humor-wise.

6 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Mattris wants objectively bad?  Then objectively bad he will receive.  

Steve, don't you ever quote or paraphrase Tauriel again.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Ahem...

 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

I've heard that it broke the Star Wars fandom... intentionally. I have a better idea: You should avoid watching The Last Jedi ever again... since just about anything else would be a better use of your time.

It's not a waste of your time if you genuinely enjoy it.

[Demodex 557]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

I asked you to explain why you liked TLJ. Referring me to others' comments/threads are not you answering my request. Saying you "loved the characters, the action, the humor, and the surprise at the end" is not "enough" ... and could be anyone's answer to why they liked practically any film. If you don't - or can't - explain why you "disagree" my issues... or specifically elaborate on why you liked the film, well, that's on you. Are you incapable... or just lazy?

 

I don't understand what more I can say that hasn't already been said.  I agree with what others have said they liked about it.  What more can I say?  It's a waste of my time trying to discuss it with you because you're so adamant that what some people like about it "is crap".

 

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

From what I've gathered over these 55 pages is that I'm more aware of the events of TLJ - and why the film was written as it was - than everyone here. The only way you could know more than me about TLJ story and characters is by having read its novelization, which is kind of a cop-out way to explain a film's short-comings.

 

Holy shit!  You're Rian Johnson!!  I knew it!!

 

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

I hate the film-makers' social-driven agenda inserted into the films. I hate what they've done to the franchise.

 

What have they done to the franchise?  Made it entertaining after the shitty prequels is what they've done.  I don't agree that this supposedly social-driven agenda hurt the movie.  That's your opinion.  I assume even a kid like you knows the difference between opinion and fact.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

The film was a disgrace to Star Wars.

 

Your opinion, not mine.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Almost every instance of (attempted) humor in The Phantom Menace is distracting, pathetic, embarrassing, gross, pathetic, ridiculous, or tone-deaf.

Fixed it for you.  I thought the humor in TLJ was pretty good.  It was much more like the OT than the PT.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I don't think any film since has managed to make me as angry and depressed as Alien 3 did. 

 

Anyone hurt by The Last Jedi is a weakling! They don't know how good they have it! 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

The Last Jedi may end up being justified or whatever you want with IX, but the simple fact is it won't need to be. Whilst a part of a trilogy, it is an individual episode, the middle of three, bridging two films.

 

It's like a tunnel. You go in thinking "Oh no! It's just another tunnel like before!". In the middle you're expectations are exceeded and you find that things did not go the way you necessarily though but are looking more up than you could've hoped. Then you reach the end of the tunnel. Your destination. Where full light reveals all and loose ends are tied. We're in the middle folks. Enjoy the ride. IX will be fine.

[Demodex 557]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-was-targeted-by-russian-trolls-study-says-1148475

 

Hmmmm. 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Wasn't some Communist regime spamming Rian Johnson to ensure that Hux would live on?

 

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

It's not a waste of your time if you genuinely enjoy it.

 

The attitude of the film-makers towards the genuinely concerned fans - is far worse than them making a poor SW film or two. That's primarily why I despise them and TLJ.

 

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

I don't understand what more I can say that hasn't already been said.  I agree with what others have said they liked about it.  What more can I say?  It's a waste of my time trying to discuss it with you because you're so adamant that what some people like about it "is crap".

 

What have they done to the franchise?  Made it entertaining after the shitty prequels is what they've done.  I don't agree that this supposedly social-driven agenda hurt the movie.  That's your opinion.  I assume even a kid like you knows the difference between opinion and fact.

 

Your opinion, not mine.

Fixed it for you.  I thought the humor in TLJ was pretty good.  It was much more like the OT than the PT.

 

You haven't given me specific reasons why you liked the film. Your opinion is yours alone. Just remember what elements/themes/scenes you liked about the movie and type them out. The more-detailed your answer the better. I'm genuinely curious. (I am not going to keep asking you. If you don't do it, I'm just going to assume that you are incapable.)

 

The state the franchise is in now is shockingly bad. The fandom are divided... badly. TLJ ticket and Blu-ray sales are significantly less than TFA. After a troubled, extremely expensive production Solo just lost $200M. These are not opinions. Nor is it an opinion that the social-driven elements in TLJ and Solo (that factual exist within them) hurt those films at the box office. What proof do I have? Just read the customers/fan complaints, in hundreds of thousands of Youtube videos and article comments, which explain why the films have not been well received. (I will link some videos and articles soon.)

 

Many kids are intelligent enough to know the difference between opinion and fact, but many are easily swayed by entertaining, convincing propaganda... and can't.

 

Based on the themes and characters of the previous films (and lore, in general), TLJ disgraced them. The events - or lack thereof - in TLJ speak for themselves. The film is a dumpster fire. At this point, I'm positive that the majority of Star Wars fans agree with me. Just watch what happens with Episode 9... the film itself and its reception.

 

Possibly the biggest issue with TLJ: Apart from the 'deaths' of Snoke and Luke, how did the overarching story - and other characters - progress from the end of TFA to the end of TLJ? Answer: Basically not at all.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The attitude of the film-makers towards the genuinely concerned fans - is far worse than them making a poor SW film or two. That's why I despise them and TLJ. 

I'm not going to dislike an entire film just because a director has said some potentially questionable things. There were thousands of good people who spent over a year making this film, and they all did a great job, therefore I'm not going to just shit on the entire project just because of one person.

[Arpy 4,145]

Everything you hated @Mattris, I loved. If you can call subjective things 'objective', objectively speaking, the character development of Luke was amazingly well done and with the right amount of restraint too. Luke isn't a hero, and (to use a controversial phrase) subverted the expectations of whack jobs who thought Luke was going to be some powerful lightsaber-wielding, kick-ass ninja. In the end he was powerful, and just like Yoda in ESB, teaching him the ways of the force. What about where his character left off in Return of the Jedi would have him be some space ninja forty something years later? Even Obi-Wan was fucked up by the events of the Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith so that his return in A New Hope isn't the return of a war hero, but an elderly sage who was too old to do anything but die.

 

Dualism is one of the greatest themes in the saga, but explored with greater depth here in The Last Jedi. What I find extremely fascinating is how Johnson and probably the Star Wars Brain Trust are forming Rey's character to tread along the path of the dark side, hinting that Kylo may have more answers. Rey is the reverse of Kylo, Kylo is the reverse of Rey, Luke is the flipside of Rey, and Rey is the flipside of Luke. I'm hoping this connection runs deeper in the next film, because as much as they have suggested Rey's anonymous heritage, I think there's a strong connection to be made to tie her to the Skywalker legacy. 

 

There's the dualism of Rey and Luke in the film; they're both heroic figures in their own right, powerful with the force and both are wrecked by their emotional attachments, but more than being opposed, their inextricably linked and mirror images of each other. 

 

An important distinction to be made here might be in the fact that Luke's character is perceived to be heroic. He does commit acts of heroism throughout the saga, but in a circular way returning to A New Hope, he was just a farm boy who discovered a powerful heritage, uses those powers to stop a giant laser and in his exile returns to a very basic life. He doesn't take up the mantle of 'hero' at least the way some fans seem to want and expect. Those perceptions turn out to be stronger than the truth of the matter. He's chided for his absence in not helping the Resistance, but could you blame him?

 

Another link I'll bring up here is the comparison that can be drawn to Luke and Yoda. When we encounter Yoda in ESB he's in exile too, albeit because all the Jedi were being fucking slaughtered. He's a ghost of his former self that we see in the prequels and, dare I say it, not very master-like. As his character unfolds and he begins to train Luke, then we see a glimmer of a master in his regimental training style. Yet still, he's more of a wise sage than a powerful master and in this form I think we get a true sense of how the force should be, not tethered to some monk-like martial order, but a simple existence in a swamp, surrounded by nature. Luke in The Last Jedi for reasons explained before has shed his Jedi guise and when he finally agrees to train Rey, just like Yoda, we see a more natural approach to training her in the ways of the force. Now, here's where I'd argue that there could've been more lessons and more interactions between Luke and Rey in the film, but time permitting and just the sheer scale of the events in the film, that wasn't going to happen. 

 

Luke as a flawed character presented in the film was an interesting choice too because Luke isn't necessarily right to judge the failures of the Jedi Order or the ways of the Jedi, in part, his own regret and remorse has serious mental repercussions (I don't know, maybe something to do with the fact he almost murdered his nephew...) have warped his vision of the Jedi, almost irreparably so. Rey is conflicted by the powers of the force within her and her coming to terms with her heritage too. Kylo offers her an answer, almost seductively, pulling her to his side. The power of Kylo's character and how he was written with subtlety suggest Kylo's fall to the dark side isn't a black and white phenomena, we're not sure if he really wants Rey to understand his side of the events, and possibly what he wants is her to simply follow him to his own ends. We mustn't forget that Kylo is another broken and conflicted character too who isn't a sith, but a dark force user who had to murder his father in the last film, under the guidance of another mysterious character who isn't a sith lord. 

 

In the end this is exactly why I think the Last Jedi is a great film in the saga, because it presents us with grey characters, who are troubled, lost, searching for meaning and dealing with their legacy in a galaxy still reeling from decades of political unrest and war (largely inspired by the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith). The characters are arguably the strongest point of any film, but more so in the Star Wars universe where the flashy effects and fantasy/sci-fi setting is a good place to tell a story about a dysfunctional family and magic powers. 

 

I think it's grossly reductionist to say, Mattris, that the character development was 'objectively bad' when I've just presented some 'objective' subjective opinions of that reflect the powerfully written characters.

 

 

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

All those years of reading about action hero Luke in the expanded universe novels completely spoilt many fans and they were devastated that wasn't realised on the screen. Instead they got some old bugger who barely even resembled EU Luke. That heartbreak made them hate the movie.

[Guest]

That and all the BS rumors spread around and hyped up by people like Mike "Zeroh Credibility" Zeroh didn't help.

[mstrox 6,651]

It’s nice that even in times as divisive as these for Star Wars fans, we can all agree that Mike Zeroh’s YouTube videos are useless garbage.