Star Wars Disenchantment

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Who? What did he say?

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Who? What did he say?

He's behind almost literally all of the (false) rumors going around the internet, including the ones that end up getting reported by legitimate "news" sources, then always end up being fake. This started all the way back before TFA came out, and he's still getting attention by idiots, even though he has Zeroh credibility. He doesn't even have any sources. He just pulls ideas out of his ass and reports them as "news". Go to his YouTube channel; it's all just video after video of garbage ideas. I can't fathom why some people think he's a legit source of information, after having never been right over the course of the past 5 or so years.

 

For example, he was the one that started the "Kathleen Kennedy to be fired" rumor, which of course ended up being the exact opposite of the truth.

[Chen G. 3,949]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Almost every instance of (attempted) humor in TLJ is distracting, pathetic, embarrassing, gross, pathetic, ridiculous, or tone-deaf.

 

I wouldn't go that far. The idea that a film must commit to one tone and not deviate from it whatsoever and that any such deviation results in a "tonal mess" is an invention of the internet, really. Just like you want to have variety of scenery, character and action, why would you not want to have variety of tone? Besides, gravity and levity aren't opposites: they work more like sweet and salty tastes - you can use one to accentuate the presence of the other.

 

Some of the better Harry Potter films alternate between gravity and levity without disonance, vintage M. Night Shaymalan does it (Signs is hilarious!), some of the more serious entries in the MCU do it (most recently, Infinity War). The best Steven Spielberg films do it, as well. Christopher Nolan subtly does it. Peter Jackson does it. Hell, Irvin Kershner did in Empire Strikes Back, as did JJ Abrams in The Force Awakens. 

 

Recently, Hacksaw Ridge had incredibly stupid humor leading right up to one the grizzliest battles ever to be portrayed onscreen. Braveheart often had crude humor right in the middle of "the heavy stuff", including this genius piece of writing:

 

 

If you can  believe it, an earlier draft of the script had Wallace - as his bowls pour out - say "That'll clear your sinuses." Now, that's more in the wheelhouse of The Last Jedi, and was wisely removed. But not all of the humor in The Last Jedi does this.

 

Why it works in one film (or in one joke) and not in another is really a thing of art, but I think we can provide some rules of thumb: First, a move from levity to gravity is less likely to cause disnonance than the opposite. If anything, it makes the audience come down into the seriousness of the situation all the more. For instance, this moment:

 

 

Second, if the humorous bits are structurally separated from the serious bits, so that it starts light and becomes serious - it can work. Even a lot of the earlier examples lost the comedy  by the wayside or dialed it way down after the midpoint or going into the climax (again, the deleted Braveheart joke). The Last Jedi didn't quite do that, although much of the humor in the third act adheres to the thrid rule:

 

Third, that the humor is in-character. One way to do this to have it delivered in a way that's deliberately incongorous with the actor's expressions or with the camerawork, so its a humorous take on something that we the audience understands that the character means in a more profound way, as well. I'm thinking Tony's "throw another moon at me, and I'm gonna lose it" from Infinity War.

 

And lastly really to just use this combination judiciously and make it gradual, so that the most serious beat of the scene isn't immediately followed by the most jovial. In other words, you can have comedy all you want, but you should keep the amounts of bathos to a minimum. 

 

The humor in The Last Jedi sometimes adheres to these rules, and sometimes aschews them, and as a result its a hit-or-miss, but I really wouldn't say its consistently bad throughout the film, although I personally rarely found it truly funny. You may dislike it on the grounds that it parodizes Star Wars, but that's another issue altogether.

[Arpy 4,145]

Signs is simultaneously a brilliant film and a bafflingly pretentious one. Too many Shyamalanisms.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 hours ago, kaseykockroach said:

I don't think any film since has managed to make me as angry and depressed as Alien 3 did. 

 

I actually like Alien 3, problems and all. The not-director's cut makes it a better film, certainly.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I prefer the theatrical cut. The assembly cut has too many stupid bits like VHS cameras and lacks the chestburst as Ripley's falling. Sad.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

FWIW:

 

Quote

 

'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Negative Buzz Amplified by Russian Trolls, Study Finds

 

An academic paper finds that half of criticism aimed at director Rian Johnson was politically motivated.

 

Did Star Wars: The Last Jedi destroy the franchise and permanently rupture the fandom as its critics (melodramatically) have accused it of doing? According to a new academic paper by researcher Morten Bay, the answer is clearly no.

 

The paper, titled Weaponizing The Haters: The Last Jedi and the strategic politicization of pop culture through social media manipulation, examines the online response to 2017’s Last Jedi, a movie that has come to be considered controversial amongst the larger fanbase of the franchise. Bay suggests that reputation may not be earned, and instead “finds evidence of deliberate, organized political influence measures disguised as fan arguments.” 

 

Что-то, что вы хотели бы нам рассказать, "Mattris"?

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

This thread finally makes sense.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Russians...

[Nick Parker 3,040]

So that's why he didn't respond to my references to both Raiders and Last Crusade!

10 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

The assembly cut has too many stupid bits like VHS cameras

 

Oh please, if there was a Trinitron in there, you'd post a thread titled "Anyone else prefer Alien 3 to the original?"

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Anyone else prefer Freddy vs Jason to the original?

[Mattris 416]

49 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Что-то, что вы хотели бы нам рассказать, "Mattris"?

 

When Episode 9 makes less money in theaters than TLJ, are you going to blame it on the Russians?

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

Signs is simultaneously a brilliant film and a bafflingly pretentious one. Too many Shyamalanisms.

 

Its thoroughly brilliant, to my mind, but that's not the point.

 

The point is that a film can have significant tone variations, without being a "tonal mess", as internet critics/ranters are wont to call such films. It can have light, comedic moments juxtaposed - sometimes almost instantly - with moments that are dead serious, and it can be all the better for it.

 

I don't think The Last Jedi walks this fine line well at all, but its really not that bad. Again, something The Force Awakens did better.

[Arpy 4,145]

When there's evidence of Russian hacking and bots in the US 2016 Presidential election, what makes you think the same assholes couldn't have done the same to Star Wars. 80% of twitter comprises of bots.

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Reading @Chen G.‘s posts should count as college credit.

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

It does, at the university of life.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

When there's evidence of Russian hacking and bots in the US 2016 Presidential election, what makes you think the same assholes couldn't have done the same to Star Wars. 80% of twitter comprises of bots.

 

Please define "Russian hacking in the US 2016 Presidential election". How would one (or the Russians) "hack Star Wars"?

 

I appreciate you taking the time to fully explain your thoughts on TLJ. I look forward to responding to your post.

[crumbs 14,316]

The Last Jedi is a fine movie. It's a perfect storm of cliched fan expectations vs a filmmaker trying to usurp criticism that his film would just retread ESB like TFA soft-rebooted ANH. 

 

Rian Johnson is an excellent filmmaker and all the self-entitled douchebags who think they could do better are just that. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's a perfect storm of cliched fan expectations vs a filmmaker trying to usurp criticism that his film would just retread ESB like TFA soft

-rebooted ANH. 

 

I hardly think that's anyone's problem with the film.

[crumbs 14,316]

Yeah, it is actually. Have you seen the amount of ludicrous YouTube videos picking apart the most inane issues with the movie? 

 

Is the film perfect? Of course not. But it's not the cinematic abortion that braindead Fox News viewers would have you believe. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

The Last Jedi is a fine movie. It's a perfect storm of cliched fan expectations vs a filmmaker trying to usurp criticism that his film would just retread ESB like TFA soft-rebooted ANH. 

 

Rian Johnson is an excellent filmmaker and all the self-entitled douchebags who think they could do better are just that. 

 

I do agree that Johnson is a superb filmmaker, but I don’t think crafting your story specifically to subvert expectations and head off anticipated criticism is necessarily the right approach when you’re doing something like Star Wars. The approach should be making the best film you can, but recognise that you are but one player in this symphony, and it’s not your place to play your own discordant notes because you’re a special genius and your pet vision is more important than serving the story. Play with your own style, to be sure. But show some respect for your fellow players, for what’s come before, and your audience.

 

Well, let me clarify. Throwing over the card table should not have been the approach for a saga film. I would be more than fine, even welcome, shaking up the formula in the non-saga movies.

[crumbs 14,316]

But he's fucked either way. If he just remakes ESB then he's fucked. If he subverts expectations then he's fucked. What the fuck do Star Wars fans actually want? Just the exact same movies remade over and over again? From a John Williams perspective I'd much rather he tackled something outside the box than repeat himself. He's way too talented for that. 

[mstrox 6,651]

Nobody is saying that the Russian government hacked Star Wars.  Russian hacker farms (only known to be Russian from IP addresses, sign-up emails, etc) were mobilized by someone for some reason to flood social media and ratings aggregators with certain responses.

 

Its not like a new thing.  You can buy Twitter or Instagram followers from these places by the thousands for very cheap.

 

For another fun example, see the accounts that immediately jumped on anyone saying a bad thing about Chris Hardwick a few months ago after he was accused of sexual and emotional abuse - which existed solely for that reason.

 

As far as

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

Please define "Russian hacking in the US 2016 Presidential election”

 

Well, you’re the smartest one here, so I’m assuming you know how to google something if you somehow haven’t kept up with the news over the last two years.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

17 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Yeah, it is actually. Have you seen the amount of ludicrous YouTube videos picking apart the most inane issues with the movie? 

 

Is the film perfect? Of course not. But it's not the cinematic abortion that braindead Fox News viewers would have you believe. 

 

Huh, I'm a Fox News viewer and I like TLJ. They haven't even mentioned TLJ on FNC!

[crumbs 14,316]

But it's all part of Fox News' agenda that there's a left-wing agenda by every single media company that isn't owned by Murdoch. 

 

What type of reasonable, educated, caring, intelligent human-being watches Fox News and buys into their propaganda, unless one enjoys watching such blatant sadism? 

[Chen G. 3,949]

34 minutes ago, crumbs said:

But he's fucked either way. If he just remakes ESB then he's fucked. If he subverts expectations then he's fucked.

 

You can make a Star Wars film that isn't a re-tread of Empire Strikes Back, without resorting to make a film that's bent on deconstructing Star Wars.

 

And if you are setting out to make a deconstructive film, by all means go with it all the way. Don't tease us only to provide a merely cosmetic unpackaging of the Star Wars formula. Think big: no text-crawl, blow-up the Falcon, kill the Droids, end the Jedi, sever the connection of everyone in the Galaxy to The Force. Now, that's how you put together a deconstructive film.

 

This is obviously the kind of thing that would work better within the framework of Episode IX, but if its not suitable for a middle-chapter than maybe Johnson should have realized that and gone another route?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

32 minutes ago, crumbs said:

But it's all part of Fox News' agenda that there's a left-wing agenda by every single media company that isn't owned by Murdoch. 

 

What type of reasonable, educated, caring, intelligent human-being watches Fox News and buys into their propaganda, unless one enjoys watching such blatant sadism? 

 

Paragraph 1 might be true to an extent in relation to American culture wars, but I've never heard a peep from them regarding some Disney/LFL agenda to make SW more dainty and emasculate existing male characters.

 

Have you ever actually watched Fox News or are you just writing based on what you've read about it from on The Guardian or heard from The View? I find Fox's news analysis to be refreshingly levelheaded and a much-needed alternative to stiff, run-of-the-mill bedwetters on other stations.

[crumbs 14,316]

No, I've actually watched that crap and anyone who finds their "analysis" "refreshing" is clearly easily manipulated. The entire channel serves one purpose and that is to propagate an agenda that serves billionaires and billionaire corporations. Fox News represents everything wrong with modern America and it's scandalous that such blatant indoctrination has been allowed to propagate. I daresay it's a huge reason why America now faces the toxic cultural war it does. 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

As if Americans wanted to watch all that other stale left-wing Democrat shilling crap anyway.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

What type of reasonable, educated, caring, intelligent human-being watches Fox News and buys into their propaganda, unless one enjoys watching such blatant sadism? 

 

 

I've actually met people who fit into this category, believe it or not. 

[Arpy 4,145]

The Last Jedi was a bad film? 

FAKE NEWS!*

 

 

 

 

*Message may or may not be sponsored by Fox News Corp. Copyright 2018.

 

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Fox News represents everything wrong with modern America and it's scandalous that such blatant indoctrination has been allowed to propagate. I daresay it's a huge reason why America now faces the toxic cultural war it does

 

Having grown up watching Fox News: it's inane, obnoxious, and creepy in the extreme ideological shell it recently has constructed after the election of Trump. However, I would not consider Fox News a major contributing factor of what you describe. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Nancy Pelosi wants her crumbs back!

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

TLJ was great! Even if you didn't like the story, you have to admit it looked awesome.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Sure, it looks cool.

 

Although again, sometimes distractingly so.

[Demodex 557]

13 hours ago, Mattris said:

The more-detailed your answer the better. I'm genuinely curious. (I am not going to keep asking you. If you don't do it, I'm just going to assume that you are incapable.)

 

Oh god. I can't wait for you to tell me how much these parts sucked. I only have a few minutes so...

 

One thing I liked was when Luke threw his lightsaber over his shoulder.  It was humerous. 

 

I liked nearly every scene on Luke's island. I like that Luke was the opposite of what everyone was expecting.  It was more interesting that way.  I thought his character and story arc was perfect. 

 

I loved Luke's scenes with Yoda and R2. 

 

I liked the whole throne room scene. Yeah, it was too similar to ROTJ, but I thought it was fun. 

 

I liked Holdo's sacrifice. Can't believe no one thought of using lightspeed as a weapon before. 

 

I loved the whole sequence on Crait. Great fun!

 

Time's up.  Can't wait to hear how much you hate all if that stuff, again. 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Although again, sometimes distractingly so.

Distracting? Maybe.

But it's bloody gorgeous.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

How the hell does one explain in "detail" why they liked something? What is this, some CIA torture interrogation?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

 

I do agree that Johnson is a superb filmmaker

 

I wouldn't say he's superb, not yet. But that's my point: shucks if it ain't nice to see a rising "young" director, complete with growing acne and voice cracks, get a shot at something so massive, while still maintaining his idiosyncrasies in the process (compare to Kubrick's Spartacus). Especially in a time when the American film industry is so risk-averse and "Here's your shot, kid, better get it right or you'll never work here again".

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

maintaining his idiosyncrasies in the process

 

The idiosyncrasies of new filmmakers are usually more externalized than with veterans, actually.

 

The more the filmmaker directs, the more effectivelly he can express himself in the most subtle gestures, and his style becomes more seamless and calls less attention to itself.

[Thor 7,504]

As opposed to STAR TREK, I have no disenchantment with STAR WARS. Basically love it as much as when I first saw the original films decades ago. And I think all the new ones have been good to great. I am, however, kinda tired of TALKING about it all the time, which seems to fill up 90% of JWFAN's topics. I very rarely click on STAR WARS topics, whether for music or films. This one, I did -- due to the 'disenchantment' angle.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

2 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

How the hell does one explain in "detail" why they liked something? What is this, some CIA torture interrogation?

 

 

What do you consider TLJ's strengths to be? I look forward to responding t--I mean reading--your reply.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

THERE ARE FOUR CANTO BIGHTS!!!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

The idiosyncrasies of new filmmakers are usually more externalized than with veterans, actually.

 

The more the filmmaker directs, the more effectivelly he can express himself in the most subtle gestures, and his style becomes more seamless and calls less attention to itself.

 

You're correct, generally, but I was referring to the fact that you can tell this is a Rian Johnson film, and that his voice wasn't crushed through the studio system.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, Nick Parker said:

 

You're correct, generally, but I was referring to the fact that you can tell this is a Rian Johnson film, and that his voice wasn't crushed through the studio system.

 

Maybe because Johnson's approach matches the studio's agenda for feminithm, emathculathun and progrethivithm.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

2 minutes ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

THERE ARE FOUR CANTO BIGHTS!!!

Pardon?

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

You're correct, generally, but I was referring to the fact that you can tell this is a Rian Johnson film, and that his voice wasn't crushed through the studio system.

 

The studio system is far less opressive than you might think. Even Marvel, by far the most opressive studio in Hollywood, let Joss Whedon have free reign with both Avengers films - the former of which was his first feature film.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 minute ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

THERE ARE FOUR CANTO BIGHTS!!!

 

Wrong! TLJ Supporter #24601, I'll ask you once more: how many major, film-crippling plot holes do you see in The Last Jedi?

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I liked the Last Jedi very much.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

The studio system is far less opressive than you might think. Even Marvel, by far the most opressive studio in Hollywood, let Joss Whedon have free reign with both Avengers films - the former of which was his first feature film.

 

That's not true.