Why is orchestration not taught better/more ?

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

The art of orchestration is just not stressed enough in the study of music. Even when one goes on to study composition, orchestration takes a distant back seat to stuff like functional harmony and form. My school had ONE orchestration course required for composition majors, can you believe that? And let's say someone wants to take orchestration lessons? Good luck finding a teacher,especially one who is honestly good enough to teach it.

I listened to Elgar today when I read on the board he just had his 150th birthday. What a marvelous orchestrator. Outside of JW (or whoever assists him) who do we have today that can even come close to Elgar, Ravel, Brahms, Walton etc? Today's film composers are worried more about creating the loudest metallic percussion hit to go along with their single melody played by the strings and horns. So very creative.

Maybe it has more to do with time constraints? Are the Zimmers/Silvestris/Newmans/Howards of the world incapable of creating PURE ORCHESTRAL MAGIC in a film score, like JW has done so many different times, or are they capable but choose to take the shorter easier route because of a time crunch? (Note: I'm not implying these four have never written a well orchestrated cue, but they are few and far between).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

It's not the instrument....but what you do with it that is what matters.

But anyways, you pretty much answered your own question:

or are they capable but choose to take the shorter easier route because of a time crunch?

Generally that's why most composers don't bother with orchestration.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Are the Zimmers/Silvestris/Newmans/Howards of the world incapable of creating PURE ORCHESTRAL MAGIC in a film score, like JW has done so many different times, or are they capable but choose to take the shorter easier route because of a time crunch? (Note: I'm not implying these four have never written a well orchestrated cue, but they are few and far between).

I don't really think I can answer your question, because I really disagree with that statement, especially as pertaining to Silvestri and Howard.

Ray Barnsbury

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

Are the Zimmers/Silvestris/Newmans/Howards of the world incapable of creating PURE ORCHESTRAL MAGIC in a film score, like JW has done so many different times, or are they capable but choose to take the shorter easier route because of a time crunch? (Note: I'm not implying these four have never written a well orchestrated cue, but they are few and far between).

I don't really think I can answer your question, because I really disagree with that statement, especially as pertaining to Silvestri and Howard.

Ray Barnsbury

I probably should have picked some other composers. Silvestri and Howard are obviously great at what they do, and both are particularly great at atmospheric writing and have created some amazing soundscapes using the traditional orchestra. I feel bad for lumping them in with Zimmer lol.. But while those two have had their moments, neither has produced anything that I would call an orchestral masterpiece. Maybe a cue here and there, but that's about it.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Music doesn't have to be complex to be good. You used Newman as an example - well my favourite Newman cue consists of a bunch of atmospheric synths (I think that's what they are), a piano and a woodwind - Compass and Guns.

Then again, I know close to nothing about the real mechanics of music so I can hardly judge.

[tuneman_21 0]

I couldn't agree more. All I had in my college music education was a single orchestration class and that didn't even BEGIN to cover all you could in orchestration. Orchestration can make or break you as a composer - Mussorgsky for example. He wrote great piano music, but when it came to orchestra, he failed miserably because he couldn't orchestrate. It took his buddy, Rimsky-Korsokov, to do that for him.

Jerry Goldsmith is a great example of someone who was all orchestration. You never got complex rhythms or themes from Goldsmith, but his orchestrations, the SOUNDS he would come up with were always interesting. That was his gift.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

You never got complex rhythms or themes from Goldsmith,

Errrrm. *cough* Errrm. *hack* *cough* *sneeze* EEEERRRRRRRMMMMM.

[tuneman_21 0]

As a second thought, I've also noticed that not only can some of these composers not orchestrate, they can't develop a theme to save their lives. That is my biggest complaint about Hans Zimmer and Michael Kamen. They can't (couldn't) develop the themes they came up with. Everything is ABA form

Don't get me wrong! I love Goldsmiths themes (I've been on a Goldsmith kick as of late), but they're not nearly as complex as JW's.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Don't get me wrong! I love Goldsmiths themes (I've been on a Goldsmith kick as of late), but they're not nearly as complex as JW's.

Errrrm. *cough* Errrm. *hack* *cough* *sneeze* EEEERRRRRRRMMMMM.

*wheeze*

[Ollie 1,059]

I agree with Blumenkohl.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I thought Zimmer developed and twisted various parts of the love theme very well in PotC:AWE. But I agree, he's not exactly among the best

Patrick Doyle could also use some lessons in thematic development. Eragon, GoF anyone?

[Composer_Fan 2]

I agree. I took my one orchestration class last Fall and we didn't have time to study a lot of brass and percussion. It was mostly strings and winds. Orchestration is something I'd really like to study more of. Vaughan Williams is another name that comes to mind when talking about good orchestration. He studied with Ravel.

[BigMacGyver 0]

I probably should have picked some other composers. Silvestri and Howard are obviously great at what they do, and both are particularly great at atmospheric writing and have created some amazing soundscapes using the traditional orchestra.

Not only soundscapes. Your comment just indicates that you have simply heard the wrong scores by these gentlemen. I don't see how judge dredd for example qualifies as soundscape or atmospheric writing apart maybe from one cue. Then, there is the Polar Express, Back To The Future, Cast Away, Forrest Gump, Siegfried & Roy, Mouse Hunt, The Mummy Returns... the list goes on and all these scores are well constructed, effective and perfectly orchestrated. Even though Silvestri is using orchestrators, he is always 100% involved in the orchestration process and loves to do it on his own if the time schedule permits this (watch for example the tomb raider 2 scoring featurette, where you can see him sitting at the piano and changing a score sheet with pencil). As you will probably know, orchestrating for an ensemble larger than 100 players can take quite a while, so it's no wonder that even people who know how to do it need a helping hand sooner or later.

I am sure with Howard it's not much different and he also composed several scores that go far beyond soundscapes or mere atmosphere.

So, I kind of agree with you that picking these two as examples is a bit... off.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I think a major problem is that themes are overrated and many don't seem to care much about the remaining qualities of good music.

Mussorgsky for example. He wrote great piano music, but when it came to orchestra, he failed miserably because he couldn't orchestrate. It took his buddy, Rimsky-Korsokov, to do that for him.

Actually, the RK Boris Godunov is being phased out these days in favour of Mussorgsky's original orchestrations.

You never got complex rhythms or themes from Goldsmith

Uhm... The Blue Max? Planet of the Apes? Rambo II? Total Recall?

[Jim Ware 526]

You never got complex rhythms or themes from Goldsmith

That is without doubt the craziest thing I have ever heard on this board.

[Red 75]

The comment of a true fanboy.

Bad form!

[Jeshopk 8]

When I started studying music on my own, I skipped harmony and counterpoint and went straight for notation and orchestration. I didn't care if what I wrote didn't adhere to some ancient rules of theory, but I did need to know how to write the music in my head as accurately as possible, and playably for musicians. I have studied theory since, but my education is based first on orchestration books, then on theory.

[Delorean90 42]

What orchestration books did you use, Jesse?

[John Crichton 4]

Errrrm. *cough* Errrm. *hack* *cough* *sneeze* EEEERRRRRRRMMMMM.

*wheeze*

Yes, that's what I've sounded like the last few days.

I agree with Blumenkohl.

Strange feeling, innit?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I like to think of it as a warm and fuzzy feeling.  Y'know...like those super soft and fuzzy socks they sell around Christmas time for home usage.   

[gkgyver 1,646]

When I started to study music on my own, I first had to teach myself the basic scale c d e f g a h (B) c, and where to find them on the keyboard/piano. I was really confused that c was in a different place on the bar than C, or c' lol

I basically learned from listening to film scores (mainly Williams and Shore) in those early times as a musical illiterate (around 2002), and consequently I always knew the very basics of orchestration as I was coming along. But it wasn't until I started writing music myself with Gigastudio and Sibelius that I dug deeper into the subject.

As for current film scores ... slowly but steadily I find myself thinking "meh" more and more often when I hear a new score introducing its bold/tragic french horn theme. How often can you do that? And how often can you write a "strong main theme" before all scores have a "strong main theme", and strong themes suddenly come off as average?

[Jeshopk 8]

I searched for books that were easy to grasp for me, without having studied much music, but were also geared toward masterpiece writing. I found it easiest to understand Cecil Forsyth's "Orchestration" Gardner Read's "Notation" (not an orchestration book, but had plenty of instrumental writing techniques). Forsyth's had very short examples that were very well known. If I couldn't find a recording, I'd copy these examples in Overture notation app just to further study all that was happening in them. Sometimes I would go to see a piece live and look up all the excerpts from that piece and watch them performed. It helps to see an orchestra play live, leaning over the balcony very close to the stage.

[Delorean90 42]

That's cool. I've heard of Forsyth's book. Thanks! I'm getting ready to start developing some ideas I've written out, and now that I hear about the lack of orchestration in composition courses, I'd like to look into getting those.

[tuneman_21 0]

Uhm... The Blue Max? Planet of the Apes? Rambo II? Total Recall?

Sorry, but Total Recall is to me a PERFECT example of what I mean. It's not a hard theme, it's very basic and DEFINITELY more about the percussion and other sounds around it, than it is about the theme. I think Goldsmith style of composition is much more about beauty in its simplisty.

That isn't to say Goldsmith didn't come up with some deceptively hard themes. The "Enterprise" theme from Star Trek is a great example. It sounds easier than it is. But I don't think in the end Goldsmith was all about complexity in theme as he was in orchestration. JW is much more the thinking man's composer.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

No comment.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Sorry, but Total Recall is to me a PERFECT example of what I mean. It's not a hard theme, it's very basic and DEFINITELY more about the percussion and other sounds around it, than it is about the theme.

I mentioned Total Recall and Rambo II for their complex rhythms. TR's main theme is indeed decidedly simple - although there are more complex themes in the score, but the true gem in both scores is the rhythmic writing.

[tuneman_21 0]

I mentioned Total Recall and Rambo II for their complex rhythms. TR's main theme is indeed decidedly simple - although there are more complex themes in the score, but the true gem in both scores is the rhythmic writing.

More rhythmically complex for Goldsmith, yes, but I don't know if I would say as rhythmically complex as other composers. Elfman is VERY rhythmically complex and much more complex than Goldsmith. I remember reading somewhere that Henry Mancini once said "Jerry scares the hell out us" because of the unique orchestrations he'd come up with. I just find, the more I read about Jerry and the more I listen to his music, the actual sound of the orchestra and always being on the look out for new sounds and orchestrations was his first concern. Melody, rhythm, everything else served that.

[bondo 33]

...because not all composers are striving for "pure orchestral magic," and the term is subjective anyway.

[Ollie 1,059]

No comment.

Yes......I'm perplexed.

[Marcus 390]

First of all: Yes, it is taught far too little, and in a much too shallow way, too often not getting beyond focusing on low level craft. Now, nuts andf bolts are important, but the finesse can only be taught by practicing professionals with much experience,-that is, if they can teach at all (some, surprisingly, can!)

I had the privelege during my master's of studying with some of them; Richard Danielpour, and also with John Corigliano. Both are masterful orchestrators.

Some other good orchestrators of our time would be Christopher Rouse, Poul Ruders, Magnus Lindberg...

There are many decent orchestrators working in Hollywood, but few of them are also good composers. And of composers in Hollywood today who are also good orchestrators, well, that is another, and very unfortunate, story...

John Williams is a very proud exception. And God, do I miss Jerry Goldsmith (whose orchestrational style was very unique, and extremely different from Williams')

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Unfortunately orchestration will not make garbage any better, so I feel it is overrated.

If the music is good, then it'll sound good on a 1960's synthesizer or a 120 piece orchestra.

[gkgyver 1,646]

...because not all composers are striving for "pure orchestral magic," and the term is subjective anyway.

Since Hans Zimmer is on top of the game, that is evident.

But is it so wrong to inject some unique and unusual orchestrations into a score? I mean, every superhero score I've heard in the past few years sound the same, with the exception of Elfman's Spider-Man 1.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Unfortunately orchestration will not make garbage any better, so I feel it is overrated.

If the music is good, then it'll sound good on a 1960's synthesizer or a 120 piece orchestra.

I once heard a completely synthesized version of Adventures on Earth.

It was the most awful thing ever to violate my eardrums.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

Unfortunately orchestration will not make garbage any better, so I feel it is overrated.

If the music is good, then it'll sound good on a 1960's synthesizer or a 120 piece orchestra.

Say what?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Unfortunately orchestration will not make garbage any better, so I feel it is overrated.

If the music is good, then it'll sound good on a 1960's synthesizer or a 120 piece orchestra.

But isn't orchestration part of the music, just as much as harmony or rhythm or anything else? I don't think you can treat it as a separate entity, saying "this music is really good, but the orchestration is bad." Like saying a great sandwich has terrible lunchmeat.

Ray Barnsbury

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Indeed.

[Ollie 1,059]

While Goldsmith's Alien Nation and Runaway are all synth scores they are orchestrated as if he intended them to be performed by an orchestra. Compared to other synth scores of the time, and to alot of today's as well, there is a world of difference.

[tuneman_21 0]

While Goldsmith's Alien Nation and Runaway are all synth scores they are orchestrated as if he intended them to be performed by an orchestra. Compared to other synth scores of the time, and to alot of today's as well, there is a world of difference.

Goldsmith's ear was just genius.

Unfortunately orchestration will not make garbage any better, so I feel it is overrated.

If the music is good, then it'll sound good on a 1960's synthesizer or a 120 piece orchestra.

Untrue. Orchestration can make or break a piece. Again, there's a reason why Ravel and Rimsky-Korsokov re-orchestrated Mussorgsky.

I teach and direct wind ensembles and I can't tell you how many times I do a tune that loses a TON when it's been re-orchestrated for band or marching band. I refuse to do a JW marching band show because I find his music just doesn't translate to the marching band medium. Things that sound cool in the original sound down right dorky in the reorchestration. Orchestration is far from over-rated.

Am I the only one who also feels modern art music has become overly percussive too?

I once heard a completely synthesized version of Adventures on Earth.

It was the most awful thing ever to violate my eardrums.

That's a crime against nature.

I remember reading an article Nicholas Meyer did talking about Star Trek VI. In regards to the hiring of Cliff Eidelman, who did the score, Meyer talked about how Eidelman kept emphasizing how much better the score will sound when it's played by an orchestra and its not synthesized. I think that says alot.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Untrue. Orchestration can make or break a piece. Again, there's a reason why Ravel and Rimsky-Korsokov re-orchestrated Mussorgsky.

Has Ravel orchestrated more Mussorsky than Pictures? That was a piano work in Mussorgsky's original version (and, by the way, has also been orchestrated and arranged by other artists, including at least one prominent synth version). Regarding Boris, as I said above, the focus is rapidly shifting back to Mussorgsky's original version(s) these days. Korsakov's orchestrations are generally considered glossy and untrue to the original intentions in this case. They're not assumed to be bad, just not appropriate for what Mussorgsky was really writing about. The gritty original orchestrations are preferred nowadays, and RK's version is considered "acceptable" because it kept the work from becoming forgotten immediately after release. (I haven't closely compared them myself, but I'll hear the Mussorgksy version live in 2 weeks ).

[Red 75]

I once heard a synth version of "Duel of the Fates" that almost made me hate all synths by any composer.

Then I heard some Goldsmith.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I refuse to do a JW marching band show because I find his music just doesn't translate to the marching band medium.

Oh dear. If my high school band director had felt that way, I wouldn't have become a Williams/film music fan! Though I can see where you're coming from.

Ray Barnsbury

[Composer_Fan 2]

I heard a marching band play the 1941 March, and it wasn't too bad without the harp and strings. It is quite different though.

I also heard a different marching band play an arrangement of the Black-Eyed Peas' "Don't Phunk With My Heart." 0.o

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Oh my...

The kids at my old high school hold the Pirates show they did a few years ago as the best ever, much moreso than the Grease, Phantom, and Superhero (including Williams) shows done in the following seasons.

Ray Barnsbury

[tuneman_21 0]

Untrue. Orchestration can make or break a piece. Again, there's a reason why Ravel and Rimsky-Korsokov re-orchestrated Mussorgsky.

Korsakov's orchestrations are generally considered glossy and untrue to the original intentions in this case. They're not assumed to be bad, just not appropriate for what Mussorgsky was really writing about. The gritty original orchestrations are preferred nowadays, and RK's version is considered "acceptable" because it kept the work from becoming forgotten immediately after release. (I haven't closely compared them myself, but I'll hear the Mussorgksy version live in 2 weeks ).

Yeah, but was Mussorgsky sober at the time he orchestrated it?

As far as I know Pictures is the only Mussorgsky piece Ravel orchestrated, and I believe it's also the most popular of the orchestrations of that piece. Everyone and their brother has re-orchestrated that work.

I once got to hear a recording of Mussorgsky "Witch's Dance" which ultimately became "A Night on Bald Mountain" when Rimsky-Korsokov reset and reorchestrated it. About, 95% of Night on Bald Mountain is pure RK. The only thing that survived was the dance theme. But, after hearing it, I understood why the Mussorgsky arrangement never flew.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sorry, but Total Recall is to me a PERFECT example of what I mean. It's not a hard theme, it's very basic and DEFINITELY more about the percussion and other sounds around it, than it is about the theme. I think Goldsmith style of composition is much more about beauty in its simplisty.

That isn't to say Goldsmith didn't come up with some deceptively hard themes. The "Enterprise" theme from Star Trek is a great example. It sounds easier than it is. But I don't think in the end Goldsmith was all about complexity in theme as he was in orchestration. JW is much more the thinking man's composer.

I haven't seen crap like this since day after I ate 3 Donner Kebabs with garlic sauce and sambal!

With many Goldsmith scores, or most actually the music is build using the themes as a basis, in many cases Jerry composes a few themes and motives and crafts the entire score from them.

The reason why Goldsmith doesn't sound complex to you is because he doesn't attempt to create musical chaos, like Elfman usually does with his rhytmic writings, or Williams with his action music of the last decade or so.

With Goldsmith, everything, every section of the orchestra complement each other instead of trying to make each other heard while the other sections are playing at their loudest.

Even with his most loud and dense action scores, Total Recall and First Blood: Part II, you never get the sense thast it's just 100 instuments randomly playing against each other, everyone is working together.

Jerry Goldsmith's best music is like a finely crafted Swiss Watch.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Sorry, but Total Recall is to me a PERFECT example of what I mean. It's not a hard theme, it's very basic and DEFINITELY more about the percussion and other sounds around it, than it is about the theme. I think Goldsmith style of composition is much more about beauty in its simplisty.

That isn't to say Goldsmith didn't come up with some deceptively hard themes. The "Enterprise" theme from Star Trek is a great example. It sounds easier than it is. But I don't think in the end Goldsmith was all about complexity in theme as he was in orchestration. JW is much more the thinking man's composer.

I haven't seen crap like this since day after I ate 3 Donner Kebabs with garlic sauce and sambal!

With many Goldsmith scores, or most actually the music is build using the themes as a basis, in many cases Jerry composes a few themes and motives and crafts the entire score from them.

The reason why Goldsmith doesn't sound complex to you is because he doesn't attempt to create musical chaos, like Elfman usually does with his rhytmic writings, or Williams with his action music of the last decade or so.

With Goldsmith, everything, every section of the orchestra complement each other instead of trying to make each other heard while the other sections are playing at their loudest.

Even with his most loud and dense action scores, Total Recall and First Blood: Part II, you never get the sense thast it's just 100 instuments randomly playing against each other, everyone is working together.

Jerry Goldsmith's best music is like a finely crafted Swiss Watch.

Magnificently stated sir.  

[Red 75]

Oh my...

The kids at my old high school hold the Pirates show they did a few years ago as the best ever, much moreso than the Grease, Phantom, and Superhero (including Williams) shows done in the following seasons.

Ray Barnsbury

And that suprises you? I just did a "Heroes & Villains" concert at my school, and the Williams that was there was rated lowest by the performers, with the exception of the "Imperial March".

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Even with his most loud and dense action scores, Total Recall and First Blood: Part II, you never get the sense thast it's just 100 instuments randomly playing against each other, everyone is working together.

Jerry Goldsmith's best music is like a finely crafted Swiss Watch.

Indeed... only that you set up trying to emphasis the complexity of Goldsmith themes and rhythms and ended up pointing out his orchestrations after all.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Oh my...

The kids at my old high school hold the Pirates show they did a few years ago as the best ever, much moreso than the Grease, Phantom, and Superhero (including Williams) shows done in the following seasons.

Ray Barnsbury

And that suprises you? I just did a "Heroes & Villains" concert at my school, and the Williams that was there was rated lowest by the performers, with the exception of the "Imperial March".

Of course not, it's just laughably irritating. I've come to expect very little from high schoolers in terms of these kinds of things.

Ray Barnsbury

[Red 75]

Kids these days.

No respect.