JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The JW Endless poll site has become nothing but a lovefest of supposed 5 star scores.They all can't be 5 stars, they cannot all be perfect.There are varying degrees of quality in JW's works.He does not produce greatness with every note he writes.I understand enjoying a particular score better than another, but I also know that a score you don't like as well can actually be a superior score.Unfortunately the lines are blurred more than ever at this site.You know things are not well here when a majority claims Raiders is better than E.T.So back to the question what scores are not 5 stars, most of the recent polls indicate that everything is 5 stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 5 Star Willliams scores:JawsStar WarsTESBRaidersE.T.RotJToDLCAmazing Stories The MissionHookHPSSTPMRotS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 KM, I appreciate you answering what really wasn't meant to be answered. You're a trooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleo 63 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The JW Endless poll site has become nothing but a lovefest of supposed 5 star scores.They all can't be 5 stars, they cannot all be perfect.Hoping that I understood what you actually meant, is it really so surprising that many here like many of JW's scores very much? Most of the polls concern his major works, and in most cases I would agree they are 5 star scores. if you need to see bad poll results, why don't you ask us to rate "presumed innocent" or the like? I think I am a John Williams fan because I consider the majority (but by no means all) of Williams's score vastly superior to what the competition usually has to offer.Btw, what do you mean by "things are wrong when most people here rate Raiders better than E.T." (am confused, didn't you just say we consider everything 5 stars?)? I agree with that statement (E.T is too saccharine for my taste), so does that mean I'm a bad fan and should go to the Steve Jablonsky fansite instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 We need a poll for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego 21 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 5 Star Willliams scores:JawsStar WarsTESBRaidersE.T.RotJToDLCAmazing Stories The MissionHookHPSSTPMRotSNo Superman?? No CEO3K?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 No matter the score, someone is going to rate a score 5 stars. Its a matter of which score gets MORE. I would never rate Stepmom 5 stars, but I bet a handful here would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I tell which scores I give 5 stars:every Star Wars scoreevery Harry Potter score (by JW)Jurassic ParkE.T.Home AloneHookJaws 1+2Indiana Jones 1-3Schindler's ListMemoirs of a GeishaThat's it, really. 5 Star Willliams scores:JawsStar WarsTESBRaidersE.T.RotJToDLCAmazing Stories The MissionHookHPSSTPMRotSI didn't know The Mission was so good... never seen the episode, never heard the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I think it reflects the new reality of the board. Before we were just comparing JW scores with other JW scores. Now we have to take into account how a JW score stands vs Zimmer/Lord of the Rings/Star Trek...etc..so more JW scores are automatic 4+stars.KotCS vs other JW scores = 3.5. starsKotCS vs Michael Giacchino = 4.5 stars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego 21 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Sorry KM, but that's BS, a score can be graded as a separate entity, is you think the newest Giacchino score is crap, that's all right, but that won't make KOTCS any better.And btw, and I know not many will agree, Up is much better than KOTCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I don't think MG is crap. He is a good composer showing some promise ,but still far behind JW;'s current level of writing skillUp sounds like granny music .There's some good action parts but that main theme kills it for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Point is, you should judge a score by its own merits... asking yourself, "How well does it function in the movie? How enjoyable is it?" Even, "How often do I listen to it?"Comparing a score to E.T. and Empire Strikes Back is as unfair as comparing it to Giacchinno's output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego 21 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I don't think MG is crap. He is a good composer showing some promise ,but still far behind JW;'s current level of writing skillUp sounds like granny musicNot my point, the thing is KOTCS is what it is, no matter what you compare it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Brausam 216 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 One facet of Joey's argument that may not be immediately clear, but is certainly agreeable, is that the constant naming of Williams scores as masterpieces will in a way devalue his TRUE ones.In other words, calling almost every Williams score a masterpiece diminishes the description when using it to describe his true master works. That's how I feel, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,770 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I really don't give a flying f**k about these ratings.All the same scores get the same unanimous 5 star ratings... so what's new? Where's the discussion?I think it reflects the new reality of the board. Before we were just comparing JW scores with other JW scores. Now we have to take into account how a JW score stands vs Zimmer/Lord of the Rings/Star Trek...etc..so more JW scores are automatic 4+stars.No, it reflects your continued fanboyism of Williams. Don't try to deny that.I don't think MG is crap. He is a good composer showing some promise ,but still far behind JW;'s current level of writing skillUp sounds like granny music .There's some good action parts but that main theme kills it for meAnd you automatically know Williams would've written a much better score in a completely different style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 One facet of Joey's argument that may not be immediately clear, but is certainly agreeable, is that the constant naming of Williams scores as masterpieces will in a way devalue his TRUE ones.In other words, calling almost every Williams score a masterpiece diminishes the description when using it to describe his true master works. That's how I feel, anyway.No, I disagree. By your logic, it is not possible for a single person to produce many masterpieces. You're basically saying (for example), if 20 people produced 40 masterpieces it's OK. If JW wrote those 40 masterpieces by himself, it's not acceptable...There's something wrong with that way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Giacchino's Star Trek > Indy 4. And it's not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Brausam 216 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 No, it is possible to write many master works, but how then does one delineate the top-tier ones versus the lower-tier ones (it doesn't even sound possible to have a low-tier masterpiece!)?And then we have multiple definitions of masterpiece too. On dictionary.com we have at least 2 good ones...1. a person's greatest piece of work, as in an art.2. anything done with masterly skill: a masterpiece of improvisation. So what is Williams' masterpiece according to the first definition?The second definition could encompass any great score(s) that Williams has written, but it does nothing to tell us which ones are truly his greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 No, it is possible to write many master works, but how then does one delineate the top-tier ones versus the lower-tier ones (it doesn't even sound possible to have a low-tier masterpiece!)?And then we have multiple definitions of masterpiece too. On dictionary.com we have at least 2 good ones...1. a person's greatest piece of work, as in an art.2. anything done with masterly skill: a masterpiece of improvisation. So what is Williams' masterpiece according to the first definition?The second definition could encompass any great score(s) that Williams has written, but it does nothing to tell us which ones are truly his greatest.Well, when I say masterpiece I always mean 2. Something done with masterly skill.When you mean 1, you should say it like that: Like E.T. and Empire (e.g.) are JW's greatest works of art (out of his canon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 So what is Williams' masterpiece according to the first definition?The magnum opus question, you mean?Point is, you should judge a score by its own merits...Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought you said you judged the quality of a score by comparing it to others.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Brausam 216 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 No, it is possible to write many master works, but how then does one delineate the top-tier ones versus the lower-tier ones (it doesn't even sound possible to have a low-tier masterpiece!)?And then we have multiple definitions of masterpiece too. On dictionary.com we have at least 2 good ones...1. a person's greatest piece of work, as in an art.2. anything done with masterly skill: a masterpiece of improvisation. So what is Williams' masterpiece according to the first definition?The second definition could encompass any great score(s) that Williams has written, but it does nothing to tell us which ones are truly his greatest.Well, when I say masterpiece I always mean 2. Something done with masterly skill.When you mean 1, you should say it like that: Like E.T. and Empire (e.g.) are JW's greatest works of art (out of his canon).Okay, well if we're going by definition 2 then I can agree with you.It just seemed absurd to name a large number of scores for the first definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego 21 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Giacchino's Star Trek > Indy 4. And it's not even close.I agree, and it's probably not even Williams fault, just watch what he had to score. In his prime he probably could write awesome stuff for crap, now he probably doesn't care as much.BTW, do you think Williams knows when he's composing for crap?? Do you think he goes "Oh my god, I can't believe he survived an atomic blast inside a fridge, what were you thinking Steven??" in his head?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 So what is Williams' masterpiece according to the first definition?The magnum opus question, you mean?His 4 Oscar scores...Point is, you should judge a score by its own merits...Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought you said you judged the quality of a score by comparing it to others....You are wrong and I forgive you. You need to know what's out there to know what's good-- OF COURSE. But you can still judge a score by its own merits, by not comparing it to any specific works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Giacchino's Star Trek > Indy 4. And it's not even close.I think you mistakenly typed '>' instead of '<'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Point is, you should judge a score by its own merits... asking yourself, "How well does it function in the movie? How enjoyable is it?" Even, "How often do I listen to it?"Comparing a score to E.T. and Empire Strikes Back is as unfair as comparing it to Giacchinno's output.Uh, aren't the one who said we should rate all scores by comparing them to every other film score that we've heard?I see Nick already beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Point is, you should judge a score by its own merits... asking yourself, "How well does it function in the movie? How enjoyable is it?" Even, "How often do I listen to it?"Comparing a score to E.T. and Empire Strikes Back is as unfair as comparing it to Giacchinno's output.Uh, aren't the one who said we should rate all scores by comparing them to every other film score that we've heard?I see Nick already beat me to it.Don't be so nearsighted! You are wrong and I forgive you. You need to know what's out there to know what's good-- OF COURSE. But you can still judge a score by its own merits, by not comparing it to any specific works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Giacchino's Star Trek > Indy 4. And it's not even close.I think you mistakenly typed '>' instead of '<'. Hmm...No, I suck at math, but I think I got that one right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hm...In second grade, my math teacher told me that the ">" was the mouth of a crocodile that eats whatever it points to, Giacchino's Star Trek > Indy 4... so therefore, Indiana Jones wins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 This is fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,770 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hm...In second grade, my math teacher told me that the ">" was the mouth of a crocodile that eats whatever it points to,Then your teacher was wrong!At least in the programming world, '>' most definitely has the greater on the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brigden 7 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Empire Strikes Back > Math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hm...In second grade, my math teacher told me that the ">" was the mouth of a crocodile that eats whatever it points to,Then your teacher was wrong!At least in the programming world, '>' most definitely has the greater on the left.Exactly, so which one would be more appealing to the crocodile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxie 1 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 BTW, do you think Williams knows when he's composing for crap?? Do you think he goes "Oh my god, I can't believe he survived an atomic blast inside a fridge, what were you thinking Steven??" in his head?? Why is everyone so obsessed with that bloody fridge?! Williams probably doesn't even care. He still gets paid whether he writes a crap score or a good one, and people will still buy his albums, crap or not, won't they King Mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 BTW, do you think Williams knows when he's composing for crap?? Do you think he goes "Oh my god, I can't believe he survived an atomic blast inside a fridge, what were you thinking Steven??" in his head?? Why is everyone so obsessed with that bloody fridge?! Williams probably doesn't even care. He still gets paid whether he writes a crap score or a good one, and people will still buy his albums, crap or not, won't they King Mark? 3 things:1. Not everybody is obsessed with the fridge.2. Williams doesn't do it for money. Hell, he's a millionaire many times over...3. Of course he cares. He's human like the rest of us (or at least most of us). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego 21 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The fridge thing came to mind cause KOTCS was in the conversation. I know he gets paid and all, but I'm pretty sure there must be times when he probably just wants to shake his head ans goes "I wish I could wish away my feelings?? dear god George learn how to write!". Knowing him he probably just smiles and says, "that's a nice scene George" in the spotting sessions, he seems to be very polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 As soon as George Lucas leaves the spotting room, I bet John Williams finds the nearest waste bucket and vomits.(In all seriousness, I always wondered about this, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brigden 7 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 If he really cared that much he would have quit Star Wars after TPM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The fridge thing came to mind cause KOTCS was in the conversation. I know he gets paid and all, but I'm pretty sure there must be times when he probably just wants to shake his head ans goes "I wish I could wish away my feelings?? dear god George learn how to write!". Knowing him he probably just smiles and says, "that's a nice scene George" in the spotting sessions, he seems to be very polite.I bet he's thinking something like, "Dear God. Do I have to do everything here to make the scenes work??"If he really cared that much he would have quit Star Wars after TPM.Why would he quit if he cared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brigden 7 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The fridge thing came to mind cause KOTCS was in the conversation. I know he gets paid and all, but I'm pretty sure there must be times when he probably just wants to shake his head ans goes "I wish I could wish away my feelings?? dear god George learn how to write!". Knowing him he probably just smiles and says, "that's a nice scene George" in the spotting sessions, he seems to be very polite.I bet he's thinking something like, "Dear God. Do I have to do everything here to make the scenes work??"If he really cared that much he would have quit Star Wars after TPM.Why would he quit if he cared?Because he wouldn't have had his memory of the series tarnished? As an ultimatum to George to make sure he doesn't screw around with his music anymore? Any number of creative reasons. Instead he let Lucas take him for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The fridge thing came to mind cause KOTCS was in the conversation. I know he gets paid and all, but I'm pretty sure there must be times when he probably just wants to shake his head ans goes "I wish I could wish away my feelings?? dear god George learn how to write!". Knowing him he probably just smiles and says, "that's a nice scene George" in the spotting sessions, he seems to be very polite.I bet he's thinking something like, "Dear God. Do I have to do everything here to make the scenes work??"If he really cared that much he would have quit Star Wars after TPM.Why would he quit if he cared?Because he wouldn't have had his memory of the series tarnished? As an ultimatum to George to make sure he doesn't screw around with his music anymore? Any number of creative reasons. Instead he let Lucas take him for granted.In all seriousness, I think he continued just because he cared. He wanted to finish the series himself... and not have, say, Hans Zimmer do the Revenge of the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I think JW is underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,070 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Riiggghht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 You need to know what's out there to know what's good-- OF COURSE. But you can still judge a score by its own merits, by not comparing it to any specific works.If you judge it as a single entity then it automatically and unjustly gets a higher rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 So this thread hasn't self imploded yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I love Joe. There are only 5 or 6 JW scores that truly rank as all time greats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 There are only 5 or 6 JW scores that truly rank as all time greats.Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 Giacchino's Star Trek > Indy 4. And it's not even close.no.they are both mediocre scores. Except for MG thats good for him, as his reach is so short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,070 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Except for MG thats good for him, as his reach is so short.Compensating much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 are you insinuating that I have a small endowment, because statistically speaking gay men have generally larger endowments (and in this case the stats are accurate). That aside I mean that John's musical reach is, has been, and forever will be longer than MG who is having a less than spectacular summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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