On a scale of 1 to 10(best) rate Attack of the Clones

[JTN 2,262]

On 3/5/2024 at 2:17 AM, Edmilson said:

And he's right: the whole conspiracy to make the Clone Wars happen makes no sense and it's dumb as fuck.

Because the entire prequel trilogy is… forced.

[Jurassic Shark 12,254]

On 03/05/2024 at 3:06 AM, Schilkeman said:

There’s a guard stationed on every floor.

 

Oooh, one guard on each floor. 

[Schilkeman 1,017]

52 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Oooh, one guard on each floor. 

It’s a pretty tall building

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's not very nice.

Huh?

[JTN 2,262]

Speaking of the worst Star Wars films, which film is the worst in every trilogy in your opinion?

 

Me:

OT - Return of the Jedi

 

PT - Attack of the Clones

 

DT - The Last Jedi (haven’t seen Rise of Skywalker)

 

 

 

[Mr. Hooper 2,005]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Oooh, one guard on each floor. 

 

From the 'Star Wars Databank':

"In the final years of the Republic, Jango Fett was regarded as the best bounty hunter in the galaxy. A proficient marksman and unarmed combatant—but would turn tail at the sight of a lone guard on the floor Padmé was being kept."

 

 

 

[Schilkeman 1,017]

Some of you have never played Splinter Cell, and it shows.

 

On 03/05/2024 at 9:17 AM, Chen G. said:

but it absolutely baffles me that Lucas stages a pair of attempts on Padme's life and...that's it

Because palpatine doesn't want Padme dead. He wants her out of the way. One, so that she can't vote on (or drum up support for) the army issue, and two, so Anakin can spend time with her. He's from Naboo. He would have known she would have a decoy, and then he arranges for Obi-Wan (aka Anakin's Master) to protect her, more or less negating the bounty hunter issue.

 

Lucas uses Jango to set up both the Kamino and love story plots. Once she's off Coruscant, the "plot" against her is essentially over. We find out later that Gunray was really the one who wanted her dead, and this leads to the arena fight after a sham trial on Geonosis. Palpatine has been using the "failed" attempt to kill Padme to garner support from the Trade Federation to join the Seperatists.

[Datameister 2,099]

It's all just so convoluted. I'm not an AOTC hater, but I can't come up with any cogent reason why I can enjoy the film as much as I do. It's pretty bad.

[Jurassic Shark 12,254]

Across the Stars makes the film.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

It's no more convoluted than The Godfather. I get the appeal of films with plots that can be described in one sentence, but I don't think every movie needs that, or would even benefits from it.

[GerateWohl 4,499]

Even though there is a lot not well executed in the movie, it has a lot of great ideas.

 

That is the main difference for me between prequels and sequels:

• Prequels: Great new ideas for Star Wars, but particularly flaws in execution
• Sequels: Hardly any new ideas (not even talking about any 'great ideas') but particularly well executed

[Chen G. 4,045]

4 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Because palpatine doesn't want Padme dead. He wants her out of the way.

 

That's a nice idea. Really, it is. And one I can believe Lucas would be having as he wrote this.

 

But it doesn't solve the issue I'm talking about: both storylines lack urgency. I think the love story would play out better against a background of evading death traps rather than picturebook Italy with CGI extensions; and I think the Obi-Wan investigation would likewise benefit if it felt like there was a ticking clock over his head.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

both storylines lack urgency

Maybe, but I find they don't lack interest, which is more important to me. It's the second film. It can take its time. Maybe it's the slice of life anime/short story fan in me, but I like when plots and characterizations can unfold before me with no determined destination. Let it wander a bit, and trust the audience.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I think the love story would play out better against a background of evading death traps

this puts me in mind of the God-awful third Pirates of the Carrabian movie with it's sword fight marriage ceremony. No thanks.

[Nick1Ø66 4,877]

On 6/5/2024 at 2:11 AM, Chen G. said:

I think the Obi-Wan investigation would likewise benefit if it felt like there was a ticking clock over his head.

 

I thought Obi-Wan as detective was a terrible idea, and one of the worst plot lines across the nine films. While not as completely misguided as the unwatchable as the Canto Bight detour, it comes close.  

 

On 6/5/2024 at 2:11 AM, Chen G. said:

I think the love story would play out better against a background of evading death traps

 

Hmmmm. Can you be more specific? 

 

 

[Chen G. 4,045]

10 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Hmmmm. Can you be more specific? 

 

I just mean that Jango Fett or whomever should have still been on Padme's trail. I mean, the Han and Leia love story played pretty well against the backdrop of an exciting chase...

[Edmilson 7,657]

Obi-Wan should've received a few lessons in detective work from Batman.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I thought Obi-Wan as detective was a terrible idea, and one of the worst plot lines across the nine films.

How? Why? Unlike Canto Bight, it's vital.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I mean, the Han and Leia love story played pretty well against the backdrop of an exciting chase

The Anakin/Padme story had to go to some much darker and dramatic places than the Empire love story did. Whiz-bang action and quippy dialog would have undermined that part of the film. The chase through Coruscant was enough chase for that movie.

[Mr. Hooper 2,005]

On 5/5/2024 at 11:52 PM, Schilkeman said:

Because palpatine doesn't want Padme dead. He wants her out of the way.

 

On 5/5/2024 at 11:52 PM, Schilkeman said:

Palpatine has been using the "failed" attempt to kill Padme to garner support from the Trade Federation to join the Seperatists.

 

Well, if that was the idea all along, he took a risk there, cuz those poisonous worms or whatever got awfully close to succeeding.

[bored 322]

2 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

The Anakin/Padme story had to go to some much darker and dramatic places than the Empire love story did. Whiz-bang action and quippy dialog would have undermined that part of the film.

 

Or maybe it would have allowed the audience more investment, as more fun banter between the two would have allowed their bond to be more believable/stronger, besides them just telling us how much they long for each other with cliched and silly dialogue. It would also contrast with the dark and dramatic places it goes to, as well as allow us to see how far Anakin has fallen if he was a fun, charismatic person. It would almost be... a tragedy.

 

Whereas the final film has the problem of; "So when is this guy just going to admit he's evil already?" because he's already done awful things and done nothing but complain about the Jedi, including his supposed best friend/mentor/father figure/brother Obi-Wan.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

6 hours ago, bored said:

It would also contrast with the dark and dramatic places it goes to, as well as allow us to see how far Anakin has fallen if he was a fun, charismatic person. It would almost be... a tragedy.

I commend you for not using the word relatable, truly the most insipid descriptor in art criticism. It’s stupidity equaled only by “lazy” and “objectively,” but your description all but defines it.

 

We see Anakin in TPM as a nice kid who wants to help people. We see him evolve in AotC as a young man bristling at the rules of his mentors, arrogant, inasmuch as he lacks the emotional maturity to understand when to, and when not to, use his formidable powers. Not arrogant in an an actual assessment of those powers. And not in any way evil, at least until late in the film. He still wants to help people, even if he does want recognition for it, even if he does confuse revenge with help.
 

His fatal flaw, the central characteristic of any tragic character, is his unwillingness to accept change. It is not “being unlikable.” Being unlikable does not lead to him killing so many Jedi. or being entombed in a prison of his own making. So it is, in any academic or critical analysis, a tragedy. That does not change because we don’t like, or (shudders) relate to, the character.

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Well, if that was the idea all along, he took a risk there, cuz those poisonous worms or whatever got awfully close to succeeding.

He took a number of big risks, but then, he’s gambling for ultimate power. Telling Anakin he was a Sith Lord, hoping the Jedi would “stumble” upon his clone army when he wants them to, maintaining a level of unrest that keeps him in power, but not so much to overthrow the government. If Padme dies in that apartment, the trade federation and army creation issue solve themselves, and he finds another pressure point for Anakin. Again, love for Padme is not his flaw. There would be something else along the way that Anakin would want to change, and be unable to, opening the door to Palpatine's plans for him. Even when it all doesn’t go to plan, like the Trade Federation invasion, he’s able to work it to his advantage. He finally out-gambles himself in RotJ. It catches up to him in the end.

[Chen G. 4,045]

6 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I commend you for not using the word relatable, truly the most insipid descriptor in art criticism. It’s stupidity equaled only by “lazy” and “objectively,” but your description all but defines it.

 

We see Anakin in TPM as a nice kid who wants to help people. We see him evolve in AotC as a young man bristling at the rules of his mentors, arrogant, inasmuch as he lacks the emotional maturity to understand when to, and when not to, use his formidable powers. Not arrogant in an an actual assessment of those powers. And not in any way evil, at least until late in the film.

 

I think the term "relatable" or "sympathetic" is perfectly applicable to great tragic heroes. For two reasons: one, if we sympathise with the tragic hero through their aspirational, good traits early on than the whole experience of the tragedy is driven that much closer to home; and two, the more the tragic hero is relatable early on, the greater his fall is, relativelly speaking.

 

I don't think the Attack of the Clones Anakin particularly fits. Yes, he means well in his heart, and yes, he's been through a lot already with the separation from his mother. But his demeanour is so arrogant, so creepy, and - by the midpoint of the film - so prematurely homicidal. Its like if Othello was played as a raving, abusive lunatic from the get-go.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

But his demeanour is so arrogant, so creepy, and - by the midpoint of the film - so prematurely homicidal. Its like if Othello was played as a raving, abusive lunatic from the get-go.

It's the mid point of the trilogy, not the film. We got a film of him being nice, and he needs to be Darth Vader by the end of film three, if not before. Flaws need to start showing up in Act II.

 

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I think the term "relatable" or "sympathetic" is perfectly applicable to great tragic heroes.

Sure, but it's usually used as a short-hand for "good," or "well-written," i.e. this character is a bad character because I can't agree with, or see myself doing, the things they are doing in the story. Empathy and sympathy in storytelling are acts of imagination, and are wholly subjective reactions to a character's actions.

 

I have no problem empathizing/sympathyzing with where Anakin came from, how hard it was to loose his mother once, at maybe the worst possible age, then loose her a second time. I lost a parent young, too. I relate. I relate to being an akward teenager with social anxiety, and how hard it was to talk to girls. I relate with wanting to stand by my own opinions, but being forced to subvert them for my parents or teachers. I relate with being fairly talented at a thing, and thinking that made me a good person. I relate with not understanding the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

 

I also think the film has nice colors, which is about as relevant.

 

For me, a character's actions do not need to be relatable, they need to make sense for that character, not for me, and a tragic character is definitely going to do some dumb shit before the fall, otherwise the fall wouldn't happen. Character flaws are a feature, not a bug.

[Chen G. 4,045]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

For me, a character's actions do not need to be relatable, they need to make sense for that character, not for me,

 

But it has to work for you on some level, because you're the one actually watching it.

[Tallguy 3,548]

On 03/05/2024 at 2:44 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

It is insane that sequel trilogy hate would cause anyone to reassess this film as GOOD... 9/10, REALLY??

 

BRAVO! BRAVO! (Did you see the Tales of the Jedi with Dooku? Not bad, really.)

 

The one moment that almost got me was Padme's "I've been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life" speech. And I was resentful because any emotion I was having had been totally unearned by the rest of the film.

 

On 03/05/2024 at 2:44 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

P.S. Oh, and as bad and as stupid as The Rise of Skywalker undoubtedly is, Harrison Ford's scene in it is way better than anything, anything in all three prequel films and that includes the supposedly "good" one, Revenge of the Sith.

 

"Dad....?" "I know." Oh! Makes me tear up just typing it! TROS is a mess but I pretty much always feel like I'm watching human beings.

 

On 03/05/2024 at 5:07 PM, Chen G. said:

Again, its conceptually important to see the Jedi order in its heyday fight en masse, and this is really something we see only here.

 

This was where the movie completely lost me. After seeing two Jedi in The Phantom Menace mow through everything (except for a Sith) against overwhelming numerical odds I was waiting for the whole freaking Jedi council to mow through those guys like a hot knife through butter.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

work for you

That's a vague qualifier. What works for me is consistency and logical character progression (or regression). Anakin fulfills that just fine. When Luke shows up in TLJ, he does not, and the film did not do the work to explain the inconsistency in how we know the character to be, and where he is now. The prequels did the work. 

[Chen G. 4,045]

1 minute ago, Schilkeman said:

That's a vague qualifier.

 

Its the only qualifier that matter.

 

A film only exists in the experience of the individual watching it, and its value to that individual is measured only in what that person "got" (or, as the case may be, didn't get) out of the film.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

24 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its the only qualifier that matter.

 

A film only exists in the experience of the individual watching it

Experience is a moving target, and certainly there are things that appeal to me, for any number of reasons, however, I've learned to like too much stuff in my life to write something off as not relatable. As I said, I find it an insipid and dull descriptor that usually has little bearing on whether or not I like a thing.

 

I find Attack of the Clones the most intellectually stimulating of all the Star Wars films. It does things I like to see in a movie. It does things I've learned to like to see in a movie. I think when we say relatable, we mean accessible to our level of knowledge, and our peculiarities of taste, which often go hand in hand, and which, if we're doing the thing right, evolve, and which, lastly, mean absolutely nothing to anyone.

[Tallguy 3,548]

The problem with Anakin Skywalker is that while I totally (mostly?) believe that he becomes a force for evil I never believe that he becomes Darth Vader. Which was the entire magic trick that was the reason for the Prequels.

 

They try to show his authoritarian streak. I get that part (a little). But even in The Clone Wars they never show when Anakin Skywalker decided that mercy and kindness was a bad idea.

 

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its the only qualifier that matter.

 

A film only exists in the experience of the individual watching it, and its value to that individual is measured only in what that person "got" (or, as the case may be, didn't get) out of the film.

 

Sadly this is true. Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire worked a treat for me. Hell, The Marvels worked for me.

[Yavar Moradi 2,653]

On 09/05/2024 at 9:54 AM, Schilkeman said:

I find Attack of the Clones the most intellectually stimulating of all the Star Wars films. It does things I like to see in a movie. It does things I've learned to like to see in a movie.

 

I can't even fathom this.

 

Yavar

[Edmilson 7,657]

Somewhere in the Multiverse there may exist a version of Attack of the Clones that is indeed a great movie, maybe the best Star Wars film. Because it has all the makings of a very engaging space opera: an epic love story in the midst of galactic political turmoil! A conspiracy to destroy the peace and plunge the entire galaxy into war, created by one of the Jedi's own! Who is actually just a pawn for an even worse and more powerful enemy who is someone the Jedi don't even expect!

 

These are all amazing ideas that weren't developed properly and the end result is disappointing. Unlike the Disney trilogy, which had an already flawed premise (another Empire, another Vader, another trio of heroes, but with new names), AotC could've been something more serious, deeper and complex than the "lighthearted adventure" of the OT.

 

And part of AotC becoming a better movie is if it were Episode I and not II. TPM might be the most useless movie for the overall narrative in the entire franchise (that is, if you discount Solo... lol). All of its important moments could've been abridged so we'd get right to the political intrigue and conspiracy, as well as Anakin's descent into evil.

 

Think about it: the Star Wars prequel trilogy would begin with a prologue that would show some Jedi academics who have studied the Force for decades. They would feel something in the Force: in a distant lawless planet on the fringes of the galaxy, where the crime rules and the laws of the Republic are useless, a child who is the prophecized Chosen One has been born as a slave.

 

The Jedi travel to this abandoned, crime and poverty-ridden world and demand the child's mother to deliver her son so that he can go through a Jedi training that will develop his powers and make him the most powerful Jedi that has ever lived.

 

Of course the child is hesitant, and for good reason. Imagine you're just a little boy and now some strange man come to your house telling that you will be crucial for the order (who the boy didn't even know it existed) in the future. They'll take you away from your mother and you'll be forced to go through a harsh, grueling training to live to their near impossible expectations.

 

Here the seeds for the future hatred Anakin will harbor for the Jedi will be sown. He never wanted to become a Jedi, heck, they didn't even let him grow up to decide by himself what he wanted to be! And yet those weird man with their glowing swords are now at your house demanding you to go with them for a completely new life lightyears away from his mother.

 

However, Anakin would meet another child in a similar position to his: Padmé Amidala, heir to the throne of Naboo. Much like Anakin, Padmé has also been robbed of her childhood by adults who say she'll be a leader on the future and she must prepare now. The two of them bond over this and here their love story begins.

 

After this introduction we cut right away to the plot of AotC years later, when Anakin is already a promising apprentice under Obi-Wan Kenobi, the youngest Jedi Master in decades. Now that you got rid of all the TPM stupidity (podracing, Gungans, all that stuff about taxes and the Trade Federation...) you will have one movie and a half to properly develop the two important story threads: the conspiracy to undermine the Republic, throw it into war and destroy democracy and the forbidden love story of Anakin and Padmé. You could even show some of the Clone Wars, instead of letting a cartoon that would come out years later to show all those exciting battles.

 

And there you have it: a recreated prequel trilogy that cuts the unnecessary crap and an really be about the fall of the Republic and the Jedi and the tale of a man who, under huge expectations, was crushed and turned into a monster.

[bored 322]

I'm not personally a fan of the cast partially starting off as kids, partially because of the creepy factor of Padme's actress being (and looking) significantly older than Anakin's, causing her to come across as a groomer, but also because child actors are practically always terrible unless you have a top tier director. Otherwise I agree that's at least a more concise version of the prequels. 

[Groovygoth666 736]

30 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

However, Anakin would meet another child in a similar position to his: Padmé Amidala, heir to the throne of Naboo. Much like Anakin, Padmé has also been robbed of her childhood by adults who say she'll be a leader on the future and she must prepare now. The two of them bond over this and here their love story begins.

I was literally thinking about this the other day. How about in TPM instead of Padme being Queen because she was elected, being a Princess, that is the same age as Anakin, with her parents King and Queen of Naboo still alive at the time of her escape, but staying behind and being killed by the Trade Federation. Making the threat of the Trade Federation more real than being told people are dying in a message thats meant to give away where they are. Then her first act as Queen is to unify the people's of Naboo and the rest of TPM happens. Then in Episode II rather than it be that her terms ran out and there was a vote to change the constitution to allow her to be re-elected, as Queen she ends the royal line and installs a democracy but is still elected into the Senate. 

 

Also having Anakin and Padme being the same age and having to grow up fast because of the situation could help generate a stronger bond between them. 

[Schilkeman 1,017]

8 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

I can't even fathom this.

 

Yavar

Thanks for sharing. At least you didn’t call me stupid this time. Your capacity for change is heartwarming.

 

5 hours ago, bored said:

partially because of the creepy factor of Padme's actress being (and looking) significantly older than Anakin's,

It’s a five year age gap, and it’s definitely him liking her in that first movie. He has to push pretty hard in the second for her to even acknowledge his presence. It’s a bizarre read to call that grooming.

 

Having Anakin’s fall to the dark side be based wholly on external factors would be cheap and easy. Anakin’s upādāna is a stronger and more unique concept. I would have felt let down if he, as in Kylo, turned because some people were mean to him, how uninteresting.

[Jurassic Shark 12,254]

On 04/05/2024 at 1:11 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Oooh, one guard on each floor. 

 

Spared no expense. 

[Chen G. 4,045]

2 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Anakin’s upādāna is a stronger and more unique concept.

 

See, this is a HUGE, gaping abyss between how you see the film and, truthfully, how most Western audiences see them.

 

This quasi-Buddhist, abnegatory idea that attachment is wrong is just not something most Western audiences just can't get behind. Certainly not since the collapse of the New Age movement that Star Wars clearly capitalised on in the 1980s.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

See, this is a HUGE, gaping abyss between how you see the film and, truthfully, how most Western audiences see them.

 

This quasi-Buddhist, abnegatory idea that attachment is wrong is just not something most Western audiences just can't get behind. Certainly not since the collapse of the New Age movement that Star Wars clearly capitalised on in the 1980s.

This gets back to my point on authorial intent. I see the film this way because George brought up attachment, and I went looking for the definition he was using. Art is a two-way street. Learn new meanings of words. It isn’t hard. That other people can’t be bothered is so profoundly not my problem.

[Chen G. 4,045]

I think authorial intent should be communicated through the piece itself. And I think it does: what Lucas espouses in interviews, for once, is in-line with what his films suggest. A kind of 1970s New Age pastiche of Buddhist abnegation.

 

But ultimately, if the film expouses a weltanschauung that is so unlike one's own, or that one actively finds disagreeable, obviously its going to affect one's enjoyment of the piece. We're under no obligation to view this film from the point of view of George Lucas.

[Schilkeman 1,017]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:42 AM, Chen G. said:

abnegation

I think this is the wrong word for the concept. Release would be more accurate. It applies most to the space wizards of potentially immeasurable power, and less so the regular citizens of the GFFA. There’s no issue with the Han/Leia relationship, for instance, although the concept of unhealthy attachment can be universal.

 

On 11/5/2024 at 9:42 AM, Chen G. said:

We're under no obligation to view this film from the point of view of George Lucas

Yes, art is a two-way street, like I said.

[Smeltington 1,464]

The idea that Jedi can't have romantic relationships was obviously invented specifically for this movie to allow a FORBIDDEN LOVE story just to make everything spicy. A la Titanic, or Romeo and Juliet. And I guess it also conveniently puts Anakin more at odds with the Jedi order. The only thing that keeps the concept from being even more ridiculous is that the Jedi order is already monk-like. But this idea is certainly not there to tell us anything about relationships and attachment, it's just for dramatic purposes. And the movie isn't asking us to agree with the rules of the Jedi order, it's asking us to delight in the fact that the love story happened against the odds.

[Chen G. 4,045]

18 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

The idea that Jedi can't have romantic relationships was obviously invented specifically for this movie to allow a FORBIDDEN LOVE story just to make everything spicy. A la Titanic, or Romeo and Juliet. And I guess it also conveniently puts Anakin more at odds with the Jedi order. The only thing that keeps the concept from being even more ridiculous is that the Jedi order is already monk-like

 

I definitely think the success of Titanic had a part to play in the shaping of the story the way Lucas had. But, to be fair, the idea that the Jedi are celibate had been used in the rough draft of Star Wars: Annikin and Leia like each other, but his father Kane tells him its wrong because he's "a warrior."

 

I think of it less as Buddhist and more as a 1970s New Age thing: Carlos Castaneda, whose books were a major text in that subculture and that Lucas at least leafed through, claimed (falsely) to have been celibate.

 

Its only in the rough draft, though: its dismissed in the second draft, and doesn't come into any of the subsequent drafts and films and, as a possible plot-point for Return of the Jedi, Lucas contemplated giving Luke a girlfriend.

 

18 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

But this idea is certainly not there to tell us anything about relationships and attachment, it's just for dramatic purposes.

 

I feel like George Lucas wants us to think that its the Jedi order who's in the right, and Anakin who's in the wrong. Evidentally, Anakin's attachment DOES lead to tragedy, and while its true that we needn't treat these films as morality plays, that's just what I get off of the films. Lucas' interviews, which I'm usually reluctant to cite as examples, also point towards this.

[Smeltington 1,464]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

the idea that the Jedi are celibate had been used in the rough draft of Star Wars

 

Ok, but in the actual movie, Luke's father is a Jedi. And that wouldn't be possible if his father was celibate.

[Chen G. 4,045]

6 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

Ok, but in the actual movie, Luke's father is a Jedi. And that wouldn't be possible if his father was celibate.

 

Yes. The Rough Draft is NOT a draft of Star Wars as we know it: the first draft that's really a draft of the 1977 film as we know it is the third draft outline.

 

All the early drafts need be treated as drafts for other possible movies, similar to Star Wars in style and plot. Actually, the movie the rough draft resembles most is The Phantom Menace - Lucas wrote that movie with the rough draft on his desk.

 

But it does show that the idea of the Jedi as celibate had been running through his mind during this period.

[Yavar Moradi 2,653]

"I am a Jedi, like my father before me." -- Luke Skywalker

 

Soooooooo, a horny one who ignores the Jedi code?  

 

I kid, because obviously at the time in the finished films, the idea that the Jedi were celibate knights had never been presented. So Luke's statement doesn't seem weird at all, as long as you ignore prequel retconning. God, the prequels are so, so dumb. Making the Jedi a weird celibate order was such a bad call. Almost as terrible a choice as midichlorians! (Are they celibate in order to artificially restrict the number of people with the Force then??)

 

Yavar

[Chen G. 4,045]

I've always been able to emotionally ignore most of the retcons in these films. This is not just true of the prequel trilogy but very much of the classic trilogy. Never have I ever been able to bring myself, emotionally, to sit and watch the original Star Wars and really have that feeling "D'oh Luke, but don't you know that's your dad under the mask?!" It rings false to the context of that film, which is to say nothing of the bizarre, inexcusible decision to make Leia his sister.

[Smeltington 1,464]

5 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Making the Jedi a weird celibate order was such a bad call.

 

Lol, yeah it was really poorly thought through. Just to create a manufactured obstacle for the love story, he had to decide that ALL Jedi were celibate.

 

4 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Are they celibate in order to artificially restrict the number of people with the Force then??

 

Given that being strong in the force is passed down from parent to child, and given that the training has to start at such a young age, they really should just breed their own younglings instead of going out in the world and taking random children back to Coruscant.

[Mr. Hooper 2,005]

14 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

Lol, yeah it was really poorly thought through. Just to create a manufactured obstacle for the love story, he had to decide that ALL Jedi were celibate.

It would've been enough of an obstacle to say that a Jedi cozying up to a senator would be seen as inappropriate, or was flat-out forbidden by the Jedi Order's code of conduct.

 

But I guess the celibacy thing was Lucas also trying to give the Jedi the vibe of being like a religious order.

[Smeltington 1,464]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It would've been enough of an obstacle to say that a Jedi cozying up to a senator would be seen as inappropriate, or was flat-out forbidden by the Jedi Order's code of conduct.

 

I wish he thought of that!

[bored 322]

Lucas has never had skill in writing love stories. For some bizarre reason, he insisted that Indy had met Marion when she was underage (I think the age was 15) and he was 27. Not creepy at all, George! You definitely went too far in a few places. 

 

(Considering Han and Leia was Brackett and Kasdan dialogue-wise I don't credit Lucas with that one).

[Mr. Hooper 2,005]

Also penned by Lawrence Kasdan:

 

"You knew what you were doing."

[Schilkeman 1,017]

”And sacrifice Han and Leia?”

”If you honor what they fight for? Yes.”

“It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer.”

 

“I can’t do it Ben, I can’t kill my own father.”

”Then the Emperor has already won.”

 

”Your thoughts dwell on your mother”

”Afraid to lose her I think.”

 

and related

 

”No, he will not be trained. He’s too old.”

 

The attachment thing has always been there, it just wasn’t explicit. Yes, George probably had to make it more defined for the story purposes of the prequels, but to insist it was a whole-cloth invention of this film to generate drama is a poor reading of the material.

 

The attachment rule is vital world-building. It is a safety policy both from and for the Jedi that says, “we will use this power for the good of the galaxy, and not our own selfish aims, and in so doing, the galaxy will not turn on us in fear of our power.”

 

It's the same reason they're tied to a representative government. These are not normal people. These are space wizards who could cause great harm if properly motivated, and improperly sound of mind.

 

They have no rules about celibacy, Lucas actually confirmed this. This is a common misconception, because we have a tendency to equate attachment with love and sex, rather than the more Buddhist definition Lucas is using, which is more of a clinging, gnawing, selfish desire. It's closer to greed, or the shadow of greed, if you will.
 

Anakin’s fault was not falling in love, or having children, it was in wanting those things and the power and prestige of being a Jedi. The film went out of its way to show that Jedi can leave the order. He’s a skilled pilot and mechanic, who would also be marrying a very wealthy senator. He would have been fine, but it’s a choice he refused to make. 

 

[Smeltington 1,464]

Interesting points. I still think Anakin in the OT contradicts this idea. Plus why would Obi-wan tell Luke that Leia's his sister, and strengthen his attachment to her? And these examples don't necessarily tell us the official stance of the Jedi order, although they do kind of plant the seeds. But how would the Jedi expect Anakin not to give a shit about his own mother, 5 minutes after leaving her? Don't the council members have mothers too? Do children disavow their families when they get accepted to Jedi school? It's convenient for the films that they don't ever go into any of this in detail. Their own internal logic isn't developed thoroughly enough for that.