Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2?

[Sandor 797]

I thought the ST 2009 score was pretty awesome and one of the greatest aspects of the film.

And I don't even like MG that much.

[Wojo 2,453]

I really liked the part in The Deathly Hallows where Harry and Ron start arguing about how many episodes of Star Trek there were. I hope that makes the movie...*ahem*...

[Matt C 454]

As for Desplat, his themes often sound like what I imagine an encyclopedia would sound like if it was music. Rich, complicated, and utterly boring. But hey some people like that.

I don't think you've listened to enough of his scores. Firewall is nothing like Desplat's drama or comedy scores, it feels more Goldsmith-lite.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

If Star Trek is the worst score you ever bought, then you either have very few scores or have incredibly bad taste in music.

coming from a zimmer fan this is one of the funniest posts ever.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But when Williams whips up a new rendition of The Force Theme or Raider's March it's always exciting

Yeah Mark? Really?

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ANAKIN'S THEME? HUH? WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED MAN?!

...

The ending of the unused AOTC end credits is, to put it lightly, a stroke of genius.

[Salacius 7]

If Star Trek is the worst score you ever bought, then you either have very few scores or have incredibly bad taste in music.

I can assure you I have tones of scores my friend, Giacchino's ST unfortunately is the amalgamation of modern cinematography that's

pushing composers into becoming faceless commodities. I had really high hopes for that score and btw, I love Giacchinos works.

And my bad taste puts ESB and ET as my two best scores of all time, if you think these are terrible scores then I am probably on the wrong forum lol

[Jay 37,367]

It's fine to not like the Star Trek score, or be disappointed by it, or whatever.

Koray is saying that if it's THE worst score EVER to you, then something is off. There are some BAD scores out there. See Gustavo Santaolalla or Fame from 1980 (the score that beat Empire Strikes Back), or all the random electronic gibberish scores, etc. You have to admit that Star Trek is a better accomplishment than those

[Salacius 7]

It's fine to not like the Star Trek score, or be disappointed by it, or whatever.

Koray is saying that if it's THE worst score EVER to you, then something is off. There are some BAD scores out there. See Gustavo Santaolalla or Fame from 1980 (the score that beat Empire Strikes Back), or all the random electronic gibberish scores, etc. You have to admit that Star Trek is a better accomplishment than those

Well put, but I didn't buy the music for the ones you just mentioned. Excuse my frustration, I think Giacchino has so much more to give. Maybe I did build my hopes way too high.

[compos24 0]

Hey... I remember when we used to talk about the music for Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows around here. Anything musical about Harry Potter, really...

Those were the days.

[Jay 37,367]

Well put, but I didn't buy the music for the ones you just mentioned. Excuse my frustration, I think Giacchino has so much more to give. Maybe I did build my hopes way too high.

Are you basing your opinions on the score only on the 45 minute OST, or do you also have the 100 minute Deluxe Edition?

[Wojo 2,453]

Well put, but I didn't buy the music for the ones you just mentioned. Excuse my frustration, I think Giacchino has so much more to give. Maybe I did build my hopes way too high.

Are you basing your opinions on the score only on the 45 minute OST, or do you also have the 100 minute Deluxe Edition?

There's a 100 minute Deluxe Edition of Harry Potter?

No? I see.

[compos24 0]

[David Coscina 3]

There are some very dark moments in New Moon and some aggressive writing in several cues. Will Desplat ever eschew his more refined sensibilities? No, and I damn well hope not either. It's part of what makes his style his own. He does have a compositional breadth that I admire. Giacchino seems very effective at pastiche but at the end of the day, it feels very contrived- like a very good mimic. Ratatouille has some great moments in it to be sure and I love the bassoon theme. I think it's Giacchino's most balanced and mature work to date. But I don't know if it's time frames, methodology, number of orchestrators, whatever, but there's a lot of noisy writing in Gia's action scores, and while I laud him for keeping things acoustic, the musician in me is constantly disappointed in his work of late. And I will point out that I was one of the early advocates of his music heralding him as the "next John Williams" (look up the thread- I admit I said it).

I'm not going to say Desplat is the next John Williams but he certainly employs practices that, to my ears, reflect the same approach is the maestro with his own compositional stamp on it.

I'm not going to argue who is better because it is really in the ears of the beholder. Some find a lot of feeling and depth in Giacchino's music. I don't, at least not since 2004. I find a lot of compelling, interesting and enjoyable aspects to Desplat's music and I'm elated that he's on HP. My favourite composer working by far now (which doesn't mean to say I like ALL of his stuff- but I do like MOST of it).

Cheers!

[Jay 37,367]

The running thread police jokes are pretty funny, but honestly I've never once minded when a thread veered off topic - thats the JWFan way! I only say something when a topic is started that is the same as something we were already discussing, and I felt the older thread should have been bumped rather than creating a duplicate thread

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Looks like Wojo and Jason adopted the Good cop/Bad cop strategy....

[Wojo 2,453]

That requires its own badge.

I only invoked Jay's badge because my first attempt to quell the Star Trek bashing/praising six posts prior.

There are plenty of bad scores in my collection, but I am not sure how many of them I actually paid for. Michael G's Star Trek is a great score but not a great Star Trek score.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

There are some very dark moments in New Moon and some aggressive writing in several cues. Will Desplat ever eschew his more refined sensibilities? No, and I damn well hope not either. It's part of what makes his style his own. He does have a compositional breadth that I admire. Giacchino seems very effective at pastiche but at the end of the day, it feels very contrived- like a very good mimic. Ratatouille has some great moments in it to be sure and I love the bassoon theme. I think it's Giacchino's most balanced and mature work to date. But I don't know if it's time frames, methodology, number of orchestrators, whatever, but there's a lot of noisy writing in Gia's action scores, and while I laud him for keeping things acoustic, the musician in me is constantly disappointed in his work of late. And I will point out that I was one of the early advocates of his music heralding him as the "next John Williams" (look up the thread- I admit I said it).

I'm not going to say Desplat is the next John Williams but he certainly employs practices that, to my ears, reflect the same approach is the maestro with his own compositional stamp on it.

I'm not going to argue who is better because it is really in the ears of the beholder. Some find a lot of feeling and depth in Giacchino's music. I don't, at least not since 2004. I find a lot of compelling, interesting and enjoyable aspects to Desplat's music and I'm elated that he's on HP. My favourite composer working by far now (which doesn't mean to say I like ALL of his stuff- but I do like MOST of it).

Cheers!

I think I agree with you, with the exception of the pastiche bit. I think the terms "mimicry" and "pastiche" can be thrown at any artist if the thrower's breadth of choice with music is wide enough. Our own heroes Goldsmith and Williams could easily be seen as writing nothing but deceptive mimicry by those who are fans of modern composers with Goldsmith, or more so romantic and modern with John Williams. And it's obvious that the two pulled from their own experiences with music that came before them, to synthesize "new" ideas with voices uniquely their own.

The issue more so is that our burgeoning composers are...well...exactly that burgeoning. It's like looking at Williams in the late 60s early 70s as your only point of reference for his style and skills and trying to predict the direction his career will take.

Desplat has more maturity in his music yes, I agree, but he also has 7 years more of life under his belt, and being a product of European training exudes a little bit more finesse and restraint in his music. Although there's room to argue, I'm of the strong opinion that age/experience and cultural upbringing greatly affect artistic output.

What excites me with Giacchino, is that IF he further refines his skills, I believe he has greater potential than Desplat. He seems to have a wider canvas to work with, and his music exudes far more energy and primal power than Desplat.

[King Mark 3,631]

Actually Giacchino did start out great with his Medal of Honor scores, with fully developed themes that sounded amazing. He seems to be disappointing me as time goes by.

Horner was also better early in his career. And David Arnold .

So you can't predict a composer will get better with time

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

This is fascinating! Fiery Angel, what do you think of John Powell? Personally I think he's far better than Giacchino, although I really love some scores from this one.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think he's much worse than Michael Giacchino and Desplat. John Powell is what happens when MV/RCP composers start using real orchestras

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Actually Giacchino did start out great with his Medal of Honor scores, with fully developed themes that sounded amazing. He seems to be disappointing me as time goes by.

Horner was also better early in his career. And David Arnold

See I thought the Medal of Honor scores (right up until Airborne) were what Fiery Angel would refer to as pastiche. The music just felt like a kid in a candy store...trying out all the candies he saw in TV ads. The ultimate product is a lot of thematic development, albeit very predictable and formulaic. And I think he's getting more and more away from that.

Think of the development of the Force theme, with almost every new evolution you kinda stop and go...WOW I didn't know you could do that with the force theme and still have it work. Giacchino is at the point where he can pull off the "I didn't know you could do that with the theme" but he misfires quite a bit in terms of it working better. He's still a bit of a kid in the candy store, bored with the flavors so mixing things up a little...but not quite getting the right flavors.

And I agree that he could end up down the path of David Arnold, or Horner. But I feel with awards, accolades and his good Hollywood relationships he can only go up, unless he personally loses interest in his craft. And if he continues to grow his passion for what he does, I think age/experience will only improve him.

[King Mark 3,631]

Giacchino is at the point where he can pull off the "I didn't know you could do that with the theme" but he misfires quite a bit in terms of it working better.

I can hear that in the Lost season 6 c.d's .

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Exactly.

[King Mark 3,631]

Especially that "Leaving the Island" theme from Season 4 . I was thinking, ok he changed a bit of orchestrations, but there's no improvement and it even sounded better before

[David Coscina 3]

I think I agree with you, with the exception of the pastiche bit. I think the terms "mimicry" and "pastiche" can be thrown at any artist if the thrower's breadth of choice with music is wide enough. Our own heroes Goldsmith and Williams could easily be seen as writing nothing but deceptive mimicry by those who are fans of modern composers with Goldsmith, or more so romantic and modern with John Williams. And it's obvious that the two pulled from their own experiences with music that came before them, to synthesize "new" ideas with voices uniquely their own.

The issue more so is that our burgeoning composers are...well...exactly that burgeoning. It's like looking at Williams in the late 60s early 70s as your only point of reference for his style and skills and trying to predict the direction his career will take.

Desplat has more maturity in his music yes, I agree, but he also has 7 years more of life under his belt, and being a product of European training exudes a little bit more finesse and restraint in his music. Although there's room to argue, I'm of the strong opinion that age/experience and cultural upbringing greatly affect artistic output.

What excites me with Giacchino, is that IF he further refines his skills, I believe he has greater potential than Desplat. He seems to have a wider canvas to work with, and his music exudes far more energy and primal power than Desplat.

Good post. I do agree that Desplat has indeed been the benefactor of European training that nourished far more than many schools in North America (believe me, I know- I went to one that was not great for orchestral composition as a major in hindsight). He is older and comes from a country that has a very rich history of composers (Ravel;, Saint Saens, Satie, Debussy to name a few).

As for potential, I actually think Desplat has plenty of growth possibility as well. He has already stretched beyond that style I first heard in Hostage. There's some ballsy writing he's been capable of but I will agree that it's not as primal as Giacchino's. Desplat, in keeping with the long French composer tradition, has a very refined sense of orchestration and composition. I think you either like it or not. I don't believe he will or can ever change that aspect and I would rather he not since there's already too many heavy handed composers in Hollywood as it is.

This is fascinating! Fiery Angel, what do you think of John Powell? Personally I think he's far better than Giacchino, although I really love some scores from this one.

I like some Powell. Hancock is terrific. But I am starting to hear a certain monotony in his scores. His chord progressions are becoming familiar between projects, his orchestration relies way too much on a constant tempo (wheres Williams and his ilk would put in a lot of ritards and accelerandos giving their music a living breathing quality). Powell and Giacchino both compose using sequencers and it is just too easy to be seduced by the dark side er, steady metronome and not compose in terms of phrases and built tempi with rhythmic deivices. Giacchino does this less and doesn't use percussion in the same irritating Remote Control way by doubling the snares with the string rhythm. Just listen to how Alex North wrote for snares in Spartacus or Jerry Fielding wrote for them in The Killer Elite. Sorry, a little digression there...

I was listening to How to Train Your Dragon and while I like some of it, most of it strikes me as gushy manipulative pulp. I guess I like Desplat's slightly cerebral approach because it lets me react to the acting and the story rather than being pushed into the direction of emotion via the music. then again, Williams has oft been criticized for editorializing in much of his seminal works so perhaps I'm just biased and petty.

I don't mind Powell though. He's certainly at the top of the Media Ventures food chain, above heir Zimmer in my opinion since it's obvious he's had solid music training and has been able to cull that into a very successful film composer career.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I like some Powell. Hancock is terrific. But I am starting to hear a certain monotony in his scores. His chord progressions are becoming familiar between projects, his orchestration relies way too much on a constant tempo (wheres Williams and his ilk would put in a lot of ritards and accelerandos giving their music a living breathing quality). Powell and Giacchino both compose using sequencers and it is just too easy to be seduced by the dark side er, steady metronome and not compose in terms of phrases and built tempi with rhythmic deivices. Giacchino does this less and doesn't use percussion in the same irritating Remote Control way by doubling the snares with the string rhythm. Just listen to how Alex North wrote for snares in Spartacus or Jerry Fielding wrote for them in The Killer Elite. Sorry, a little digression there...

I was listening to How to Train Your Dragon and while I like some of it, most of it strikes me as gushy manipulative pulp. I guess I like Desplat's slightly cerebral approach because it lets me react to the acting and the story rather than being pushed into the direction of emotion via the music. then again, Williams has oft been criticized for editorializing in much of his seminal works so perhaps I'm just biased and petty.

I don't mind Powell though. He's certainly at the top of the Media Ventures food chain, above heir Zimmer in my opinion since it's obvious he's had solid music training and has been able to cull that into a very successful film composer career.

Fascinating again! I love this kind of posts, where people who actually know about music talk their opinions in a polite way.

I agree with you that Powell has become kinda "stuck" in some of his scores, and I imagine that's because he's not leaving his comfort zone: action and animated movies. I wish he could do a more tridimiensional film. Not that I though that Dragon was bad, in fact I think is best score to the date. However, I can hear some references to his previous works, which could be called style or lazinees, I don't know.

However, about the part of the tempo... You're actually right! Now that you mention it, I quite never payed attention to that. I always found fascintating in Powell's percussion how he never repeats the same "phrase" (?) twice. I don't know if I'm making myself clear, but what I mean to stay is that he's always changing the direction the percussion takes. While he keeps a constant rythm, the percussion is never constant. You know what I mean? You have a lot more of musical knowledge, so you could probably explain what I mean far better.

Thanks for your opinion! It was definitely a delightful read

[Jacck 23]

I want that hour of my life back.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

However, about the part of the tempo... You're actually right! Now that you mention it, I quite never payed attention to that. I always found fascintating in Powell's percussion how he never repeats the same "phrase" (?) twice. I don't know if I'm making myself clear, but what I mean to stay is that he's always changing the direction the percussion takes. While he keeps a constant rythm, the percussion is never constant. You know what I mean? You have a lot more of musical knowledge, so you could probably explain what I mean far better.

While I thoroughly agree with this, I think I should mention those awesome cues where John Williams finds a single meter to define a whole scene and sticks to it. Ie, "Jim's New Life" from Empire of the Sun, "Follow Me" from Always, "For Gillian" from The Fury, "The Soccer Game", from Sleepers etc. They are not even montages (a la "Hide and Seek" from AI) and yet, they work with that one only metric.

[Matt C 454]

Good post. I do agree that Desplat has indeed been the benefactor of European training that nourished far more than many schools in North America (believe me, I know- I went to one that was not great for orchestral composition as a major in hindsight). He is older and comes from a country that has a very rich history of composers (Ravel;, Saint Saens, Satie, Debussy to name a few).

As for potential, I actually think Desplat has plenty of growth possibility as well. He has already stretched beyond that style I first heard in Hostage. There's some ballsy writing he's been capable of but I will agree that it's not as primal as Giacchino's.

I can sort of see why Desplat wouldn't appeal to a lot of American ears (myself included) -- who can boil down his music to three distinctive traits (sumptuous waltzes, long string lines and tinkly percussion). But the European sensibility Desplat imbues in his work is definitely attractive to my ears. It's not just the composition and orchestration, but his restriant not to go balls out on the emotion in every score -- I applaud that. But when he does go all-out, it's also wonderfully done like in "The Ghost Writer" and "New Moon."

I have a hard time imagining Desplat's score for "Deathly Hallows", but I'm excited for the score nonetheless.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

About Giacchino-pastiche-medal of Honor.

Its obvious.

Its also obvious that his early scores may have been asked by game designers to be written in Williams style.

His real style is different sounding (same difference as with Film/classical Williams). MOH Airborne is a MOH score orchestrated with his true style.

And then Secret weapons over normandy is a score from his 'williams' period, yet it is not a pastiche, there are not any cues that are noticeable homages of other compositions. Therefore, it is the pinnacle score of that era.

just wanted to express that...

[publicist 4,643]

Giacchino action music sounds as if he's going through multiple spasms while devising the orchestral lines.

I hope the amount of action scenes in HP is kept at bay...Desplat can't write action, but gorgeous themes whithout sounding like the usual cloying american syrup (Williams' family theme from Part I included).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

About Giacchino-pastiche-medal of Honor.

Its obvious.

Its also obvious that his early scores may have been asked by game designers to be written in Williams style.

His real style is different sounding (same difference as with Film/classical Williams). MOH Airborne is a MOH score orchestrated with his true style.

And then Secret weapons over normandy is a score from his 'williams' period, yet it is not a pastiche, there are not any cues that are noticeable homages of other compositions. Therefore, it is the pinnacle score of that era.

just wanted to express that...

MOH is 100% Giacchino. It's very rare to have such a strong musical style so early in a composer's career.

[David Coscina 3]

About Giacchino-pastiche-medal of Honor.

Its obvious.

Its also obvious that his early scores may have been asked by game designers to be written in Williams style.

His real style is different sounding (same difference as with Film/classical Williams). MOH Airborne is a MOH score orchestrated with his true style.

And then Secret weapons over normandy is a score from his 'williams' period, yet it is not a pastiche, there are not any cues that are noticeable homages of other compositions. Therefore, it is the pinnacle score of that era.

just wanted to express that...

MOH has more than a few nods to Williams. I wouldn't say I got a good idea of Giacchino's "style" from his video game scores. Moreso from his work on ALIAS.

Giacchino action music sounds as if he's going through multiple spasms while devising the orchestral lines.

I hope the amount of action scenes in HP is kept at bay...Desplat can't write action, but gorgeous themes whithout sounding like the usual cloying american syrup (Williams' family theme from Part I included).

I disagree. He's shown many times he can write action kinetic action music using rhythmic ostinatos (like Williams and Goldsmith) and avoiding that incessant use of noisy drum samples like some other composers I won't mention.

[publicist 4,643]

Giacchino action music sounds as if he's going through multiple spasms while devising the orchestral lines.

I disagree. He's shown many times he can write action kinetic action music using rhythmic ostinatos (like Williams and Goldsmith) and avoiding that incessant use of noisy drum samples like some other composers I won't mention.

He has written lots of show-off-y stuff to impress the common nerd who always goes gaga over massive orchestral stuff. i don't think action music like SPEED RACER or MI 3 qualifies as good,'kinetic'or not. It's loud, often without a sense of direction or - god forbid - a real storytelling purpose. With modern software, i'll bet most people on this board would be able to come up with some vaguely Goldsmithian rhythms and hammering percussion ostinati and slap it over a 2-minute action sequence without doing too much harm.

Giacchino has of course written some great stuff (ROAR, for instance, or parts of RATATOUILLE) and even has concocted a great Williams homage recently (UP's 'Escape from Muntz Mountain'), but if this is more than inspired mimicry...well, i don't know.

[Datameister 2,044]

You're offering examples of Giacchino's worst action music (IMO) to prove your point. His action music in, say, LOST is a lot better in my opinion, though it's certainly very frenetic. Took me a while to get into it.

But Giacchino definitely doesn't approach action music the way Williams does, or at least did. Few composers do or can, sadly.

[Trent B 337]

In my opinion the action music in Giacchino's Star Trek is top notch.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Fiery Angel,

Give "Secret Weapons Over Normandy" a listen. Good music, it's a bit more mental Giacchino than gut Giacchino. I'd say it's one of his best works so far.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Fiery Angel,

Give "Secret Weapons Over Normandy" a listen. Good music, it's a bit more mental Giacchino than gut Giacchino. I'd say it's one of his best works so far.

wow we are agreeing on this one

Koray, MOH main theme is completely original, but i wouldnt say it 100% giacchino. It sounds more like Giacchino writting one of Williams' great themes without ripping him at all. (if that doesnt show his talent, nothing will)

But there are many track that scream last crusade, or for example listen to labyrinth of the minotaur... and 007. Escape from casablanca has some Home alone 2 passages...

He started to develop his sound in MOH with frontline, and Airborne is practically 100% giacchino. Yet 'multiplayer axis' is Williams orchestration (a nice homage to Last crusade 'Alarm!' rendition of Nazi march)

[David Coscina 3]

Fiery Angel,

Give "Secret Weapons Over Normandy" a listen. Good music, it's a bit more mental Giacchino than gut Giacchino. I'd say it's one of his best works so far.

I actually own that one. I guess I'll have to dredge it up to give it another listen. Believe me, there was a time where I bought every Giacchino I could find. Now I'm just very cooled to his style. Something in his chord changes just doesn't do it for me. It's a personal preference more than anything and the only reason I bring in musical observations is to articulate or pinpoint the elements that just don't resound with me. I do like his ROAR but even that is basically a 2 chord piece (i-flat II). I much prefer Ifukube's Sinfonia Tapkura.

Oh, and I made a boo boo earlier. I wasn't championing Giacchino's action writing but rather Desplat's. Sorry for the mistake.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

In my opinion the action music in Giacchino's Star Trek is top notch.

yeah but you like revenge of the sith, that gives your credibility a Morlock rating. ehhh that's like a 480 credit score.

[Datameister 2,044]

You think Williams copied Star Wars to create ROTS. That takes yours down to about....oh, 2.

[King Mark 3,631]

No , a lifelong John Williams fan unable to find something to like in RotS. That's -10 credibility

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

"I, Professor Severus Snape, do hereby give Alexandre Desplat permission to compose the music for Deathly Hallows Part II, owing to the need to train the new John Williams."

[compos24 0]

Hopefully this will turn the topic back to Potter score related discussions...

[King Mark 3,631]

This thread can be about any topic you like now, since JW ain't scoring it

[Datameister 2,044]

Hopefully this will turn the topic back to Potter score related discussions...

On that note...I've been listening to SS lately, and it's making me want him to return even more. I mean, that was really the last time Williams wrote something culturally iconic. Hedwig's Theme is still recognizable, almost a decade later. And not only is it iconic, but it's good. I don't know what a Williams Potter 7.5 score would sound like, and I'm sure it wouldn't be the most amazing score ever, but there would be something so incredibly satisfying about it for me.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

You'll soon find out that some composers are better than others, Potter. You don't wanna go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there.

[Jeff 10]

I think I can tell the wrong sort for myself, thanks.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Wait til my father hears about this!

[Datameister 2,044]

Not all composers are good. Some of them go bad.