The Official "Album Presentation vs Complete & Chronological Presentation" Thread

[Thor 7,519]

Moderator's note: This thread is an offshoot of the "A Complete Score...but only one" thread located here

None.

(surprised, eh?).

[Jacob 0]

What about that .01% you allow for?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,552]

None.

(surprised, eh?).

Interesting. Why not?

[Wojo 2,453]

Do you know what this, Richard?

Take a good look. You just opened it.

[Thor 7,519]

He, he...point taken, Wojo.

Richard, I'm quite notorious for my hatred against C&C (complete & chronological) presentation of scores. I just can't stand them. I only want a good "concept album" like they do in pop music or "program music" in classical music.

[Thor 7,519]

For a genius composer and artist, Williams sure produces some awful albums.

Quite the contrary, he is in my opinion one of the greatest album producers out there, making albums JUST as I want them.

[King Mark 3,631]

He's not making score albums only for you Thor

[Thor 7,519]

He's not making score albums only for you Thor

No, he's making it for me and everyone else who likes a good listening experience - which is pretty much everyone except a hardcore niche group in film music land.

[Demondm810 399]

I hate that phrase. "Listening Experience" To me, when the music is written for a story, how can chopping it up and moving it around enhance the "experience"? (Rhetorical question, not looking for an explanation)

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Can we just stop this now before it goes out of hand?

Thor hates complete scores, get over it.

[Thor 7,519]

I hate that phrase. "Listening Experience" To me, when the music is written for a story, how can chopping it up and moving it around enhance the "experience"? (Rhetorical question, not looking for an explanation)

You'll get one anyway. It enhances the experience because, you know, the film IS NO LONGER THERE! So you have to create a new one based on the musical raw material you have at your disposal. Otherwise, it becomes somewhat of a bastard child - a CD album trying to be a film medium. It just doesn't work.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Some of us can *shudder* picture the film while we listen. Hence if there's a huge chunk of music missing... what's happened in the story?

Aaaaanyway....

Can we just stop this now before it goes out of hand?

Thor hates complete scores, get over it.

[Thor 7,519]

Some of us can *shudder* picture the film while we listen.

Then why not just watch the film again?

[steb74 53]

For some people probably because the music is mixed too low and it also has to compete with other non musical audio elements.

Not to mention the fact that some the music is often tracked, hacked and bastardized.

[Thor 7,519]

For some people probably because the music is mixed too low and it also has to compete with other non musical audio elements.

Not to mention the fact that some the music is often tracked, hacked and bastardized.

Yes, it has to compete with non-musical elements because, you know, it's part of a COLLABORATIVE artform.

Guess I've never understood the desire to re-experience an artwork through an element of that artwork. Then I just go back to the artwork and see it in full. No, I consider a soundtrack a whole NEW artwork that is independent of the film. The music came from the film, of course, but has been restructured to be its own musical voyage, not trying to be something it isn't. It's a 'concept album'. That's where Williams is brilliant. He understands this.

[Wojo 2,453]

The worms...oh sweet jesus the worms...

[steb74 53]

The worms...oh sweet jesus the worms...

Ha, you're absolutely right but even the worms are bored shitless and have moved on.

Yes, it has to compete with non-musical elements because, you know, it's part of a COLLABORATIVE artform.

My God, you really do make a conscious effort in ignoring what people write.

Are your redundant catchphrases that important even when they have nothing to do with what is being discussed?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Aaaand that's me leaving this thread.

[Thor 7,519]

My God, you really do make a conscious effort in ignoring what people write.

Are your redundant catchphrases that important even when they have nothing to do with what is being discussed?

I didn't ignore anything, I replied to your exact words. You said it was difficult to listen to film music in the film because there are other elements "intruding", so to speak, to which I say: Well duh! That's what film is about, merging various artforms into one. If it is so important to relive the movie through the music, then why don't you actually SEE the movie again? That's something I will never be able to understand with your camp - the great, big paradox.

[Datameister 2,044]

The worms...oh sweet jesus the worms...

Aaaand that's me leaving this thread.

[fommes 153]

"Let's not go there."

[steb74 53]

I don't need to relive the movie, I said 'some people'.

If it's something you don't understand though ......why don't you stop trying to and just let people enjoy art on their own terms without you constantly having to spit in people's faces by telling them that your way is superior.

[Thor 7,519]

I don't need to relive the movie, I said 'some people'.

If it's something you don't understand though ......why don't you stop trying to and just let people enjoy art on their own terms without you constantly having to spit in people's faces by telling them that your way is superior.

Quite the contrary, why don't people stop reacting aggressively every time I post my opinion - and it IS only my opinion - whenever it is relevant, like in this thread?

It's not about being superior, it's about having a right to a preference and to express that preference whenever you feel like it. If you take that as a personal affront, well that's your problem. But if this is something that applies to your everyday life too, I advise you to take it a easy when you meet someone who doesn't share your taste in things - otherwise, you might get yourself an ulcer out of the frustration and anguish.

[steb74 53]

You're doing it again, you just can't help yourself

[Trent B 337]

Guys can you please just ignore the turd? He will eventually leave if no one replies to his posts. Let's not turn this into another FSM.

[steb74 53]

Guys can you please just ignore the turd? He will eventually leave if no one replies to his posts. Let's not turn this into another FSM.

You're absolutely right Trent, I'll do just that.

[Thor 7,519]

Guys can you please just ignore the turd? He will eventually leave if no one replies to his posts. Let's not turn this into another FSM.

You're absolutely right Trent, I'll do just that.

That's great, just as it should be. One shouldn't be chased and hung up on a pole just because one has a minority taste/opinion on something. Either live with it and move on or engage in civil, constructive debate.

[Wojo 2,453]

People are so antagonistic towards Thor because he represents the fear that somehow his opinions -- those of ONE MAN -- will somehow manifest themselves as the governing doctrine of the specialty label soundtrack industry, which caters to between 1000 and 5000 devoted fans (and eBay resellers) per limited release.

When this one man somehow manages to convert the reigning philosophies of supply and demand in this hobby, and supplant all of the operators of the labels, then we can get scared.

Until then, he is one man -- ONE MAN -- who does not control our wallets. He does not control our credit cards. He does not govern our iPods. He does not introduce viruses onto our computers to erase every third track from every album. His grip does not, cannot, and will not extend into our dens to smash our collections of hard-earned albums.

He is one man with an opinion. It is very unpopular and heretical in a place such as this that buys video games and rips DVDs to squeeze every last drop of music into collections.

But his civil, constructive debate extends only so far as to point out how ant-artistic such C&C compilations are. His 155 posts generally deal with only pointing out that he hates complete soundtrack releases and he is too proud to delete every third track himself from his albums to make more pleasant (shorter) listening experiences, or to offer soundtracks for sale. He gets a rise out of the FSM community and out of us, and he feels better about himself by making us scared that our beloved complete soundtracks will become a thing of the past. And he succeeds.

Stop throwing the guy a bone.

[steb74 53]

Too late, you've just thrown him a bag full of them

[Marian Schedenig 8,210]

People sure seem threatend by Thor...

Funny thing is, I agree with most of his principles, and exactly because of that I'm all for complete releases. But we've been through that before many times.

[Thor 7,519]

Until then, he is one man -- ONE MAN -- who does not control our wallets. He does not control our credit cards. He does not govern our iPods. He does not introduce viruses onto our computers to erase every third track from every album. His grip does not, cannot, and will not extend into our dens to smash our collections of hard-earned albums.

Well, it's more than just me who feels this way, of course. We're quite a number, especially if you also consider the vast amount of people who only have a passing interest in soundtracks and who couldn't care less about C&C. But you're right about the active, niche group to which the specialty labels cater. I'm definitely in the minority there. Which is why it's all the more important to be vocal about a trend I don't condone, when it is relevant.

It shouldn't really be a threat to anyone, though, because of right now, all the specialty labels release soundtracks just the way you want them. It doesn't matter what I say. That should at the very least give you the comfort to accept a differing opinion and taste - not try to marginalize it or pretend it doesn't exist.

[Jay 37,373]

Alright guys, this has gone on long enough.

Thor, we know your opinion, you've rehashed it a million times in a million ways on this board, FSM's, and others.

I'm officially asking you to please stop derailing positive threads with your anti-C&C posts. If you want to create your very own thread where you and anybody who wants to post in it can rag on C&C release and praise OSTs, you are very welcome to, and I assure you it will never be locked or deleted.

But in a thread where people were having a good time talking about what scores they would like to see in complete form, your never-ending anti-C&C posts accomplish NO good.

By all means, please stay on JWFan, just stop derailing threads to have your opinion heard. We get it.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Alright guys, this has gone on long enough.

Thor, we know your opinion, you've rehashed it a million times in a million ways on this board, FSM's, and others.

I'm officially asking you to please stop derailing positive threads with your anti-C&C posts. If you want to create your very own thread where you and anybody who wants to post in it can rag on C&C release and praise OSTs, you are very welcome to, and I assure you it will never be locked or deleted.

But in a thread where people were having a good time talking about what scores they would like to see in complete form, your never-ending anti-C&C posts accomplish NO good.

By all means, please stay on JWFan, just stop derailing threads to have your opinion heard. We get it.

This post recieves the official "Totally Awesome" award for total awesomeness.

[TheDarkOrb 0]

I've got to give it to Thor, complete scores bore me for the most part. Too many cues that are just unlistenable and boring in the own right. I'd take an album version of a complete score on average, unless it's Star Wars or from the Alien series.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

I've got to give it to Thor, complete scores bore me for the most part. Too many cues that are just unlistenable and boring in the own right. I'd take an album version of a complete score on average, unless it's Star Wars or from the Alien series.

It's the choice I look for in recording sessions. There is a lot of crap in today's full scores, but in some cases, I prefer to be able to choose the cues, rather than a composer who has their own idea of a listening experience (mentioning no names *cough*).

Some albums are too long, some are too short, and some just don't choose the cues you want. It's a real bitch when everyone has different tastes.

[Trent B 337]

I agree with Rich. The fact too OST's tend to leave off the best bits from a score, particularly for Star Wars (and the big offensive Star Trek!). At least with a complete score people can take the best bits from the score and edit it down to a good album version. Another thing too with albums is most of the time there are micro edits in cues that are just too damn jarring. For example from Revenge Of The Sith, the end of "It Can't Be" aka "Anakin's Dark Deeds" on the OST.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I've got to give it to Thor, complete scores bore me for the most part. Too many cues that are just unlistenable and boring in the own right. I'd take an album version of a complete score on average, unless it's Star Wars or from the Alien series.

It's the choice I look for in recording sessions. There is a lot of crap in today's full scores, but in some cases, I prefer to be able to choose the cues, rather than a composer who has their own idea of a listening experience (mentioning no names *cough*).

I 100% agree. The great thing about Recording sessions is that they allow you to create your own listening experience, choose the music you want to keep and the music you want to drop, and have a 70 minutes album with no track you'll skip.

[Thor 7,519]

Alright guys, this has gone on long enough.

Thor, we know your opinion, you've rehashed it a million times in a million ways on this board, FSM's, and others.

I'm officially asking you to please stop derailing positive threads with your anti-C&C posts. If you want to create your very own thread where you and anybody who wants to post in it can rag on C&C release and praise OSTs, you are very welcome to, and I assure you it will never be locked or deleted.

But in a thread where people were having a good time talking about what scores they would like to see in complete form, your never-ending anti-C&C posts accomplish NO good.

By all means, please stay on JWFan, just stop derailing threads to have your opinion heard. We get it.

Actually, YOU are the one(s) doing the derailing by constantly having to question what is basically just my preference - and my right to EXPRESS that preference. If you guys just accepted that and moved on, like most people when they meet someone who don't share their taste in things, well then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

If a C&C criticism is relevant to the topic (for example threads discussing C&C presentations of scores I love), or if I'm otherwise unjustly attacked for having the opinion that I do (like in this thread) well then I'm going to say something and/or defend myself. Sorry. I'm not going to stop posting my opinion on a relevant topic just because you're uncomfortable with it. Plus, of course, one shouldn't really be requied to justify one's taste in the first place.

I 100% agree. The great thing about Recording sessions is that they allow you to create your own listening experience, choose the music you want to keep and the music you want to drop, and have a 70 minutes album with no track you'll skip.

I don't think the listener should be required to play record producer and arrange albums, no more than we are required to compose the actual music we're listening to. That's the album producer's job.

[steb74 53]

In that case Thor, why do you need to question and insult what is basically just another preference that is different that yours - and people's right to EXPRESS that preference.

If you could just accept that and move on, like most people when they meet someone who don't share their taste in things, well then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

The problem is ....we probably would be having this conversation because you have no respect for other people's tastes.

I couldn't care less that you prefer the album experience, I couldn't care less. Great, good for you!!

It bothers me when you have to constantly put down other preferences that don't line up with your own.

[OneBuckFilms 324]

Alright guys, this has gone on long enough.

Thor, we know your opinion, you've rehashed it a million times in a million ways on this board, FSM's, and others.

I'm officially asking you to please stop derailing positive threads with your anti-C&C posts. If you want to create your very own thread where you and anybody who wants to post in it can rag on C&C release and praise OSTs, you are very welcome to, and I assure you it will never be locked or deleted.

But in a thread where people were having a good time talking about what scores they would like to see in complete form, your never-ending anti-C&C posts accomplish NO good.

By all means, please stay on JWFan, just stop derailing threads to have your opinion heard. We get it.

Actually, YOU are the one(s) doing the derailing by constantly having to question what is basically just my preference - and my right to EXPRESS that preference. If you guys just accepted that and moved on, like most people when they meet someone who don't share their taste in things, well then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

If a C&C criticism is relevant to the topic (like in this thread or other threads discussing C&C presentations of scores I love), well then I'm going to say it. Sorry. I'm not going to stop posting my opinion on a relevant topic just because you're uncomfortable with it. Plus, of course, one shouldn't really be requied to justify one's taste in the first place.

I 100% agree. The great thing about Recording sessions is that they allow you to create your own listening experience, choose the music you want to keep and the music you want to drop, and have a 70 minutes album with no track you'll skip.

I don't think the listener should be required to play record producer and arrange albums, no more than we are required to compose the actual music we're listening to. That's the album producer's job.

How very "Thor" of you. Is that a new term?

Seriously though, you don't like it, don't buy it.

There is nothing actually WRONG with C & C releases beyond your preference. So don't treat C & C as a disease or the bane of your life, because it really should not be. What you WANT is album-like editing and presentation, ala the original Star Wars LP, with an emphasis on listening experience.

Go out and find the otiginal commercial releases, or LP transfers. They're out there, and when a score is expanded, they are a lot cheaper. Trust me, it'll be far more constructive to your wants than blind, aimless activism of this sort.

It is not a moral or ethical issue, so you're not going to convince anyone you are a warrior or crusader.

I get where you're coming from, and you have a reputation of beating the same equine carcas over and over, expecting that somehow, doing the same thing over and over may yield to different results, the very proverbial example used to demonstrate insanity.

I appreciate both kinds of presentation, and can think of both good and not-so-good instances of both.

Create another thread specifically for the issue, as suggested, and we can take this issue out of here. I think a constructive dialogue on this could be of benefit to all, but thread hijacking in this way is like throwing a match onto spilled Gasoline.

You and me, Thor. Are you game for a friendly rematch, in it's own thread?

[Thor 7,519]

In that case Thor, why do you need to question and insult what is basically just another preference that is different that yours - and people's right to EXPRESS that preference.

If you could just accept that and move on, like most people when they meet someone who don't share their taste in things, well then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

The problem is ....we probably would be having this conversation because you have no respect for other people's tastes.

I couldn't care less that you prefer the album experience, I couldn't care less. Great, good for you!!

It bothers me when you have to constantly put down other preferences that don't line up with your own.

Oh please...show me 1 - ONE - example where I've put down other people's preferences or taste. As far as I can see, that is only your domain.

I do wish the current ideology was different, of course, and that it catered more to soundtrack listeners like myself, but I'm not putting down anyone here. I'm curious about it, I can't really understand it (just as I can't understand those who like fish on their pizza) etc., but I have no problem accepting that you like it the way you do. Some people obviously feel it's threat to their very being that I do, though - despite the fact that I have no say whatsoever and the market is geared exclusively to your taste. Weird. Really weird.

Seriously though, you don't like it, don't buy it.

I don't usually either. But I probably would have if it's a score I love and it had been arranged properly. And so I feel obliged to say that in a forum that, you know, is actually ABOUT airing your opinions and thoughts.

Go out and find the otiginal commercial releases, or LP transfers. They're out there, and when a score is expanded, they are a lot cheaper. Trust me, it'll be far more constructive to your wants than blind, aimless activism of this sort.

Actually, that IS what I do, for the most time. That still doesn't mean that I can't say what I feel when a score I love - perhaps one that has had NO previous release - is being mistreated in a C&C format.

It is not a moral or ethical issue, so you're not going to convince anyone you are a warrior or crusader.

I wouldn't use those words either, but it's definitely a FIGHT. Any effort to go against the majority preference is that.

Create another thread specifically for the issue, as suggested, and we can take this issue out of here. I think a constructive dialogue on this could be of benefit to all, but thread hijacking in this way is like throwing a match onto spilled Gasoline.

Again, the hijacking is all yours. I would have been content with my brief first post where I just said "none" and leave it at that. But I'm not going to sit idly by when people attack your opinons and taste for no reason whatsoever.

[steb74 53]

Oh please...show me 1 - ONE - example where I've put down other people's preferences or taste. As far as I can see, that is only your domain.

I do wish the current ideology was different, of course, and that it catered more to soundtrack listeners like myself, but I'm not putting down anyone here. I'm curious about it, I can't really understand it (just as I can't understand those who like fish on their pizza) etc., but I have no problem accepting that you like it the way you do.

Come on man, enough with the bullshit, you do it multiple times a day between here, FSM, maintitles.

You've just made an insult now saying it's my/our domain to that.

Why do you WISH the current ideology was different? Can you not handle different tastes?

Stop pretending that you don't have a problem accepting it when almost every new release has the same redundant slap in the face comment from you.

Nobody attacks your opinions, nobody actually gives a fuck about you really but people are sick of you pissing on what their tastes are just because it doesn't match your own.

You don't really seems interested in the music at all but rather to be perceived as the rebel, trying so hard to be different just for the sake of it.

[Jeff 10]

Am I missing something here? Is there a thread somewhere where Thor was hateful or intolerant? It seems to me like everyone is being a bit harsh based on what I've read in this thread. I've never been part of a conversation on this board where someone was asked not to express an opinion. In many cases, going against the grain is what this board thrives on.

[Thor 7,519]

Am I missing something here? Is there a thread somewhere where Thor was hateful or intolerant? It seems to me like everyone is being a bit harsh based on what I've read in this thread. I've never been part of a conversation on this board where someone was asked not to express an opinion. In many cases, going against the grain is what this board thrives on.

Thank you, Jeff, a voice of reason.

[steb74 53]

I'm being serious here Jeff, honestly ...but are you taking the piss?

[Thor 7,519]

Come on man, enough with the bullshit, you do it multiple times a day between here, FSM, maintitles.

Again, you keep flogging out baseless accusations. I ask you again - please show me ONE example of me ridiculing or otherwise putting down the taste of someone else. As far as I can see, it's pretty much the other way around.

Why do you WISH the current ideology was different? Can you not handle different tastes?

Sure, no problem. I don't even mind if you spank yourself with a spikey belt while listening to the complete LORD OF THE RINGS scores. To each their own. No, my problem is that the specialty labels ONLY cater to your preference. There's absolutely nothing for me (unless it's a straight LP reissue or something). I think that's unfair and I wish it were different. Wishing things were different and wishing things catered more to me, is not a putdown of what you love. In an ideal world, both camps should get what they wanted (and this has fortunately been happening more and more, as they also include album programs in addition to the extra tracks....it's a compromise - sort of).

Nobody attacks your opinions, nobody actually gives a fuck about you really but people are sick of you pissing on what their tastes are just because it doesn't match your own.

Riiiight. So who started this debate in the first place? Exactly who "pissed" on who here? I challenge you to reread the thread carefully. Especially your own posts. And especially the TONE of your posts.

[Wojo 2,453]

Sounds like someone needs a hug or a blowjob.

[Thor 7,519]

Sounds like someone needs a hug or a blowjob.

Are you offering?

[OneBuckFilms 324]

I'm opening this thread so that we can have a civilized debate, in a separate place, for this age-old debate.

I feel that this is a legitimate issue to discuss, as it speaks to the very point of complete releases, the nature of presenting music designed for one medium on another, and how this should or could be done effectively.

I'd like to begin by making a simple case for a complete, virtually undedited release, and to counter some points regarding the artistic license some would deem missing from such releases.

First, some reasons for a Complete and Chronological release:

Film scores are somewhat unique in their nature, in that they have never been designed specifically to be heard outside of the audio/visual medium for which they were written.

Historically, soundtrack albums have been used to present a souvenir for a given movie, or to serve as a way to bring attention to the music scores written for them.

Unfortunately, Hollywood is a union town, and older scores would not fit on an LP or CD in their complete form, or work well as a stand-alone listening experience without cutting down the amound and/or arrangement of the music being presented.

The original 2 LP release of Star Wars is an example of this, and shows how such editing can be done well.

As time went on, however, several obvious drawbacks have come to light, which make these album presentations in some ways inadequate.

1. A great deal of material, sometimes important to a score's musical ideas, are omitted. Someone sees a movie, hears a great cue in the film, then wonders why it is not present on the soundtrack.

2. Many scores, including Star Wars, reflect musically the story behind the film for which it was written. A score might slowly evolve texturally and thematically over the course of a film, reflecting the film's flow, and editing a score down often sacrifices this aspect of a score in favor of a more general listening experience.

Many scores also are deteriorating slowly, and much great music that deserves to be heard and preserved, will perish forever.

Given the drawbacks and the information above, along with the desire among many to hear what the composer originally indended for the score's music, it makes sense to restore the complete score for a given film, clean it up, and present the complete and chronological recording as a publically accessible archive, allowing the score to live outside of it's move, on it's own terms, without being diluted or filtered by anyone.

To my mind, this is the right thing to do, and the respectful thing to do for this unique dramatic artform.

Preferences aside, a complete score release preserves, pretty much permanently, work that may have been lost, or edited awkwardly, otherwise.

An Album presentation has a place, but a C & C or Archival release achieves a great deal, without sacrificing any Album presentations that already exist. And I point to the 1997 re-release of Star Wars (2 CDs) as an example.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I prefer to have them both.