What Is The Last Score You Listened To? (older scores)

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Those clunky edits in Desert Chase were done in the days of analog technology. What's the Jungle Chase's excuse?

(Williams is old and senile)

[Taikomochi 1,136]

And we got a rerecording of the Raiders March instead of that material. :'(

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Well, they needed to sell the album somehow.

- Keisuke Wakao plays music of John Williams

- Jaws (2CD) CD 1 AKA the complete chronological film score (Yes, I still listen to those on occasion)

This is an extremely rare case where the score is perfect in the film, as presented on the OST album and as a complete chronological presentation separated from the film. They don't come any better than this.

"The real challenge of composing music for film is to write a score that works brilliantly in the film and also has a life of its own--that stands by itself." - Jerry Goldsmith

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I think Williams sometimes panics and second guesses himself when having to decide when to include tension building moments lile in Desert Chase. He seems to overthink its presentation and how listeners will react to it, so he gets the scissors onto it.

[Ricard 2,245]

There's a disturbing lack of understanding of music narrative and presentation independent from the film around these parts. Many seem to advocate musical repetition that would drive any sane person nuts!

Please enlighten us.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Simple, I like scores on album to have a beginning, middle and end. Much of the time, strict adherence to C&C doesn't always achieve this. Yet many listeners demand C&C at the expense of smoother musical narrative.

One example among many is Jerry Goldsmith's Explorers. The CD album is a wonderful 30 minute presentation of the score. It's rearranged by the composer to be more "musical". He sparks it off with a bang with "The Construction" and it's a wonderful journey until the end of "Have a Nice Trip". The album arrangement demonstrates that music is more abstract than its film counterpart, so it needs a rethink in its album presentation.

The film score in C&C as presented by Intrada, however, is a hard slog because not only is it padded out with short inserts and inconsequential fragments (it even opens with two of them!), the whole structure of the score just doesn't flow as well, due mainly to the fact that it's presented as intended for the film narrative, which doesn't necessarily translate well to being heard apart from the film.

Consequently I only keep the Intrada as a collectible to be archived and rarely listen to it. It's the 1990 CD I keep returning to.

I could say exactly the same thing about Twilight Zone: The Movie. It's nice to hear those fragments that were previously unreleased, but do they work as part of the wider musical narrative? Not necessarily. But people clamor for that kind of presentation simply to get that previously unreleased fragment that made it such a "holy grail" for them for years. Those missing fragments seem to only have a mystique attached to them by virtue of the fact that they were previously unreleased!

I certainly don't have a strict adherence to album arrangements either, but I appreciate their merits. And too often are they dismissed by film score fanatics who demand every available microsecond of music, even at the expense of the composer's intended presentation and narrative coherence.

For me it's on a case-by-case. For example, Jaws 2 really benefitted from its original album arrangement, and I know I keep coming back to it, but Independence Day really needed an expansion. The album is like looking at it through a telephoto lens, you're only seeing a snippet of what's on offer.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

OST vs. complete score: the oldest struggle known to man.

[steb74 53]

Simple, I like scores on album to have a beginning, middle and end. Much of the time, strict adherence to C&C doesn't always achieve this. Yet many listeners demand C&C at the expense of smoother musical narrative.

Perhaps for you, which is fair enough but don't assume that the C+C listening experience for others presents itself as a weaker experience.

My own opinions and feelings on it (which I naturally trust an almost infinite amount more than yours) are the complete opposite.

While an album does indeed have its own musical narrative, the idea that it's smoother than the 'other' type of presentation is laughable.

This idea of a beginning, a middle and an end with a reconceptualised presentation of the music for listeners like yourself I think is more often than not finding faces in the clouds, fishing in a sea of bad segues and unthoughtful edits.

I'm only concerned with talking about Williams here but my preference for a C+C listening experience is because I'm interested in being taken on a lengthy and thematically developed musical journey, taking pleasure in the music for its own sake and listening to it unfold and hearing it develop on its own musical terms through the use of long form ideas, thematic interaction, orchestrational colours, etc.

That is the most genuine musical narrative for me and a much richer and more structured one in my opinion, with none of it or with no thought about the film it was written for or even by wanting to re-live a movie.

I only mention that last part as it's often a weak criticism used by those who prefer the more traditional album style.

[Incanus 5,715]

Kundun by Philip Glass: My first proper listen of the score. Just about as Glass as it can get but it is really a very nice meditative experience.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Okay, another example is Alan Silvestri's The Abyss. A score in C&C so utterly coma inducing on the first disc, it doesn't really do anything until the last 20 minutes. In the OST, there's still a lot of boring filler but at least it doesn't take an hour and a half to get to the good stuff.

Okay another example, 1941. Yikes, fans must have loads of time and patience to kill by listening to this one in C&C. Again, fine if there's a few cues you want to hear just for the sake of it, but it's grating when you want to listen to the whole thing. Williams knew what he was doing by shaving it down for the album. Fans might love his music but they're dismissive of his artistry in album production.

Let's see, E.T. - another one where Williams felt that although his score worked perfectly in the film, it desperately needed a radical overhaul for the album. There's a lot of dead weight in the 1996 and 2002 expansions in the first two thirds of the CDs. The 1982 album really opened my ears to how good the music really is and it became my favourite Williams soundtrack as a result.

David Arnold's Casino Royale is a modern OST that jams so much into the CD that it becomes a fatiguing listen. Same goes with Quantum of Solace. Do people actually listen to all of these? They're hideous the way they're presented. Both scores need a significant slice and dice to be more listenable on album.

Then there's The Final Conflict, a score so lush, rousing and thematic, the OST didn't do the music justice. Although the 2001 expanded edition isn't complete (it doesn't need to be), it almost works as an OST 2.0. The editor on that one did a great job.

So essentially not all film scores are created equal. Some benefit from expansions, others suffer. I'm simply not married to one ideology like most here are. People like Thor might be irksome because he narrowly values all album presentations over C&C, but I find most other fans who sit on the other side of the fence to be just as bad. Both sides seem to be trapped by their own ideology, they are unable or unwilling to see the merit of differing ideas of how an individual score should be presented.

[steb74 53]

Well I don't have an ideology per se but I've been listening to, collecting and relishing in music since I was 3 years old in '77, so after all that time if anything I've developed a preference in what a more musical and satisfying experience is for me but it isn't an ideology that dismisses another person's own preference and choice in how and why they take pleasure from any given musical experience, here we're talking about film scores.

What I call bullshit on are when phrases like 'boring filler', 'grating when you want to listen to the whole thing', 'Williams knew what he was doing by shaving it down for the album', 'dead weight', 'fatiguing listen', 'Do people actually listen to all of these?'.

These for me are often just excuses to make up for lack of patience and even the lack of ability to process a larger amount of material, the 'fault' coming from the user and not the music.

However this 'but at least it doesn't take an hour and a half to get to the good stuff', is just the definition of a theme chaser for me, so any comments then about narrative and structure are just void.

You need to understand that how you see something like The Final Conflict and how for you a lengthier presentation works better, other people have the same experience but with scores that resonate with you differently.

[Brónach 1,302]

I like listening to scores more than OSTs. Sometimes out of order, so the whole talk about pacing makes no sense there. Sometimes just sections of a score. Sometimes the whole thing in order in one sitting (Close Encounter or Jurassic Park are great for this). Sometimes in several sittings, like a book. It depends. And I don't see the big deal about this whole thing other than preferring having the scores avalaible for it. I can listen to a good OST, sometimes those are similar to what I do with the shuffle or listening to specific sections. So it's no big deal. And sometimes a score just isn't that good or interesting, so who cares. Sometimes people get obsessive about the completeness of mediocre music.

Sure, some OSTs were assembled catering to specific special snowflakes who wanted a specific thing. But they're not the only ones that exist or who like scores. And sometimes looking at some of them you can tell they didn't have the fans in mind.

Now, if you excuse me:

[Bilbo 3,709]

I'd rather have a complete score and assemble by own highlights playlist than be locked into 40-70 minutes that the composer decided were the best bits even if he left off some really great cues.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

What I call bullshit on are when phrases like 'boring filler', 'grating when you want to listen to the whole thing', 'Williams knew what he was doing by shaving it down for the album', 'dead weight', 'fatiguing listen', 'Do people actually listen to all of these?'.

These for me are often just excuses to make up for lack of patience and even the lack of ability to process a larger amount of material, the 'fault' coming from the user and not the music.

Tell that to John Williams who to this day takes the initiative in his albums to edit out music that he feels interrupts the narrative flow that he's trying to create.

To me, it's ironic that members of his biggest fansite revere his music but detest his artistry as an album producer.

The governing attitude seems to be nothing but whinging about snippets we don't have, rather than appreciating what we do have and judging its merit as an overall package. I don't think all his editing decisions are perfect, sometimes they're just baffling, but when you look at the big picture, his albums are superb.

But I do find myself skipping repetitive and inconsequential filler tracks in most C&C and then I appreciate there was a good reason it was omitted from the original album.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I'd rather have a complete score and assemble my own highlights playlist than be locked into 40-70 minutes that the composer decided were the best bits even if he left off some really great cues.

This.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'd rather have a complete score and assemble my own highlights playlist than be locked into 40-70 minutes that the composer decided were the best bits even if he left off some really great cues.

This.

That's like a newspaper editor saying "I give up, let the readers decide what stories to include! Hell, just leave blank spaces on the pages and let people write their own news!"

[BloodBoal 7,538]

That's nothing like that, but OK.

[mrbellamy 6,291]

I've never been much of an album aficionado, including pop/rock. I appreciate the craft/art of it but as a listening experience I rarely go back through the whole thing after the first go. When I go back to a score it's usually to listen to something specific.

[steb74 53]

Tell that to John Williams who to this day takes the initiative in his albums to edit out music that he feels interrupts the narrative flow that he's trying to create.

To me, it's ironic that members of his biggest fansite revere his music but detest his artistry as an album producer.

The governing attitude seems to be nothing but whinging about snippets we don't have, rather than appreciating what we do have and judging its merit as an overall package. I don't think all his editing decisions are perfect, sometimes they're just baffling, but when you look at the big picture, his albums are superb.

But I do find myself skipping repetitive and inconsequential filler tracks in most C&C and then I appreciate there was a good reason it was omitted from the original album.

Well now you're almost dummy spitting and completely changing the idea of what we were talking about.

You disagree with me, fine ....but don't move the goalposts when it suits.

Again though, what you consider repetitive and inconsequential, others find to be integral to the musical narrative (regardless of the film).

Why do I think John Williams omits them? Apart from the obvious limitations of the medium ...well because I think he constructs his presentations with the everyman in mind and more or less panders to the lowest common denominator.

That's like a newspaper editor saying "I give up, let the readers decide what stories to include! Hell, just leave blank spaces on the pages and let people write their own news!"

No man, it's nothing like that at all, not at all .....that's Thor's style of bullshit ...come on!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Why do I think John Williams omits them? Apart from the obvious limitations of the medium ...well because I think he constructs his presentations with the everyman in mind and more or less panders to the lowest common denominator.

Your confidence in Williams as an album producer is overwhelming.

No man, it's nothing like that at all, not at all .....that's Thor's style of bullshit ...come on!

But it's true!

[Brónach 1,302]

Why do we have to treat this album-producing thing like an art instead of the actual music I don't know.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yeah, don't understand that either.

[Incanus 5,715]

I'd rather have a complete score and assemble my own highlights playlist than be locked into 40-70 minutes that the composer decided were the best bits even if he left off some really great cues.

This.

That's like a newspaper editor saying "I give up, let the readers decide what stories to include! Hell, just leave blank spaces on the pages and let people write their own news!"

That is a rather clunky analogy.

Do you also read shortened anthologies of novels because that is how the editor decided to release them, three to a cover?

OST is a different beast than the complete score but I don't think why they would be mutually exclusive as musical experiences. A full opera and a suite culled from the orchestral highlights might both be great but naturally in different ways.

[steb74 53]

Your confidence in Williams as an album producer is overwhelming.

What does this have to do with my confidence in Williams' ability as an album producer? ...ha, you're doing it again man ......

I have no problem with how he chooses to present an abridged form of his work, yes I prefer much lengthier presentations but I also understand why he might feel the need to sculpt it into something more palatable for the casual listener.

I only hope afterwards that a release is presented for those who prefer something more than a spoon fed musical experience.

But it's true!

Of course it isn't, it's a piss weak analogy and you know it.

The two mediums can't be compared that way ....if however you think that they can, well it's no wonder you have issues with majority of non OST releases.

[Brónach 1,302]

Yeah, don't understand that either.

When I got interested in orchestral music playing around with my dad CD collection, this idea of "album producing" never ever came to mind. What was there were either complete things, or like four complete things put together in two CD with no relation to each other besides maybe composer or other thematic connection, that I understood as several different complete things. Sometimes a CD would only have a part of something of the same composer besides a complete, more longer work. And I imagined I would just have to look for the complete form of that elsewhere. A CD wasn't an artform, it was just a medium for one or several pieces of art. Sometimes I only listened to one of them. End everything was always chronological!

So naturally when I realized what was going on with some OSTs I was extremely puzzled. It made no sense to that kid who listened to "classical music".

Maybe Thor has a point in that this attitude comes from your background. He did have a background with this "concept album" concept, that was non-existent for me. But I never understood that well, because those CDs must have come in the intended chronological order, and I suppose they were complete, so I don't know.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'd rather have a complete score and assemble my own highlights playlist than be locked into 40-70 minutes that the composer decided were the best bits even if he left off some really great cues.

This.

That's like a newspaper editor saying "I give up, let the readers decide what stories to include! Hell, just leave blank spaces on the pages and let people write their own news!"

That is a rather clunky analogy.

Do you also read shortened anthologies of novels because that is how the editor decided to release them, three to a cover?

No, I read what the editor of the published novel chose to be presented. I don't want to read the bits they edited out! I've heard of those "director's cut" novels, I think Stephen King has done them. Not interested!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

"What I do is to continue to file the music down so that it makes a musical program in the same way I would build a concert program with an orchestra. That it would have an opening, a beginning, a middle and an end, a varying set of dynamics. The way you'd plan a menu almost. That speed is varied and dynamics are varied, so that you have aural interest. You don't want to put all the loud music together and all the soft music together any more than you would in a concert program. And so, this becomes solely the aural representation of the soundtrack, and so I work out a musical program that I think is most listenable and most engaging in terms of the musical sounds themselves." - John Williams

Why do I think John Williams omits them? Apart from the obvious limitations of the medium ...well because I think he constructs his presentations with the everyman in mind and more or less panders to the lowest common denominator.

This is extremely fucking pretentious. I thought I was bad.

[Incanus 5,715]

"What I do is to continue to file the music down so that it makes a musical program in the same way I would build a concert program with an orchestra. That it would have an opening, a beginning, a middle and an end, a varying set of dynamics. The way you'd plan a menu almost. That speed is varied and dynamics are varied, so that you have aural interest. You don't want to put all the loud music together and all the soft music together any more than you would in a concert program. And so, this becomes solely the aural representation of the soundtrack, and so I work out a musical program that I think is most listenable and most engaging in terms of the musical sounds themselves." - John Williams

Oh if Johnny says so then it must be true and we can't have differing opinions. I'll bow out of this debate now.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I'm not really understanding the aggression from the, apparently, complete and chronological people toward the fans of the OST presentations? What in the fuck?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I also understand why he might feel the need to sculpt it into something more palatable for the casual listener.

Why do you assume he does what he does for the "casual listener" or the "lowest common denominator"? What if he does it because he's very protective of the way he feels his music should be heard in a medium apart from the film?

And what's this about the limitations of the compact disc? Most complete scores can fit on one disc. They don't all need two or three disc mega super deluxe "buy-me again-with-remastered-sound-every-five-years" sets.

[Brónach 1,302]

Aggresion?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'm not really understanding the aggression from the, apparently, complete and chronological people toward the fans of the OST presentations? What in the fuck?

They get emotional and defensive when this topic emerges, huh!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I like a good album presentation of a score. I don't mind of it's incomplete, as long as what's there does follow the chronological narrative of the film. Very listenable, that. Or in the case of Zimmer, it doesn't even have to be strictly chronological if he uses his longer pieces rather than actual cues. But of course there are moments always missing that are desirable... complete releases are also worthwhile then, but where I can listen to any score album, there are far fewer complete scores that seem inviting for the full ride. It's just the nature of the medium. In context and out of context require different presentations. Wagner edited The Ring down to a wordless "album," after all....

[Brónach 1,302]

This made me feel like some complete and chronological Alan Hovhaness.

[steb74 53]

Maybe Thor has a point in that this attitude comes from your background. He did have a background with this "concept album" concept, that was non-existent for me.

Thor only uses his 'concept' idea as a way of making a distinction between how he is so different than everybody else.

It's a catchphrase more than a belief!

"What I do is to continue to file the music down so that it makes a musical program in the same way I would build a concert program with an orchestra. That it would have an opening, a beginning, a middle and an end, a varying set of dynamics. The way you'd plan a menu almost. That speed is varied and dynamics are varied, so that you have aural interest. You don't want to put all the loud music together and all the soft music together any more than you would in a concert program. And so, this becomes solely the aural representation of the soundtrack, and so I work out a musical program that I think is most listenable and most engaging in terms of the musical sounds themselves." - John Williams

Why do I think John Williams omits them? Apart from the obvious limitations of the medium ...well because I think he constructs his presentations with the everyman in mind and more or less panders to the lowest common denominator.

This is extremely fucking pretentious. I thought I was bad.

Oooo a JW quote ...haha, so what, it's old news.

Yes exactly, a concert presentation, something which works for the masses but which is not necessarily the best representation of how powerful his music can be.

Wow, you must be upset to say 'fucking' ....shock!!

I wouldn't say you're 'bad' ....but your constant crying and dummy spitting make Anakin Skywalker look like Shaft ......(Simon Pegg, I know, I know ....)

There's no aggression here, so please don't invent that as your defense ....dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear

[Incanus 5,715]

I'm not really understanding the aggression from the, apparently, complete and chronological people toward the fans of the OST presentations? What in the fuck?

They get emotional and defensive when this topic emerges, huh!

Naturally the "chosen people of the OST" feel it their duty to point out the virtues of the OST album at every turn and make long speeches about the irrationality of longer score presentations and sigh with the voice of misunderstood believers among heathens.

But then again it is so fun to wind people up, isn't it.

.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

This made me feel like some complete and chronological Alan Hovhaness.

You should be on symphony 38 by next Thursday.

[Incanus 5,715]

This made me feel like some complete and chronological Alan Hovhaness.

You should be on symphony 38 by next Thursday.

Go for the Finnish Leif Segerstam, he has over 250 symphonies at the moment and still writing them. A lot of listening for a long time.

[steb74 53]

I'm not really understanding the aggression from the, apparently, complete and chronological people toward the fans of the OST presentations? What in the fuck?

They get emotional and defensive when this topic emerges, huh!

Not really, it's you two who are (constantly) doing all the foot stamping and the toys out of the pram routine ....it's cute but kind of ...nancy boy after a while.

I like a good album presentation of a score. I don't mind of it's incomplete, as long as what's there does follow the chronological narrative of the film. Very listenable, that. Or in the case of Zimmer, it doesn't even have to be strictly chronological if he uses his longer pieces rather than actual cues. But of course there are moments always missing that are desirable... complete releases are also worthwhile then, but where I can listen to any score album, there are far fewer complete scores that seem inviting for the full ride. It's just the nature of the medium. In context and out of context require different presentations. Wagner edited The Ring down to a wordless "album," after all....

Indeed and I love that version of The Ring, ha .....I actually love OSTs too and have been listening to them before either of those other two were born.

It's when a person's lack of ability to process material becomes an excuse to criticise other presentations preferred by others that I feel like I want to stand higher on the other side of the fence when in reality I'm quite happy to sit on the fence and enjoy the benefit and unique difference each experience offers.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

steb74, I'll do everything I can to help you. We should get you to the JWFan Sickbay. An antipsychotic may help, at least until I determine just which of your neural functions are being affected by the complete chronological scores.

Amazing Stories: The Mission

[steb74 53]

.......a little creepy but .......errr thanks

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

And I see a lot of dismissiveness of older albums because it was missing that four second fragment that's been everyone's so-called holy grail for yonks.

If you feel you can breeze through all these dozens of C&C discs and not get fatigued because your attention span is so much superior to us lesser mortals with ADD, then all the power to you. But the C&C fanatics can be just as frustratingly dismissive of the album approach that they can't seem to grasp the fact that the composer was trying to achieve something different on album to what he wanted in the film. Ideally the composer wants a well-rounded experience for the listener. But the C&Cer can't be bothered with that and goes "nope, want more music now!"

[Brónach 1,302]

Yes I'm pretty sure what happened with Temple of Doom was just four seconds.

I don't know where this wholw "a few seconds" rhetoric is coming from when when we've seen rather wild stuff. Like the missing choirs in The Last Airbender.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Hey even I thought a couple more tracks wouldn't have hurt ToD. But I couldn't imagine listening to the entire 100 minutes or whatever the complete score is supposed to be.

[steb74 53]

And I see a lot of dismissiveness of older albums because it was missing that four second fragment that's been everyone's so-called holy grail for yonks.

If you feel you can breeze through all these dozens of C&C discs and not get fatigued because your attention span is so much superior to us lesser mortals with ADD, then all the power to you. But the C&C fanatics can be just as frustratingly dismissive of the album approach that they can't seem to grasp the fact that the composer was trying to achieve something different on album to what he wanted in the film. Ideally the composer wants a well-rounded experience for the listener. But the C&Cer can't be bothered with that and goes "nope, want more music now!"

Absolutely, there's a lot there that I don't disagree with .....it's just a shame that your only defense of the OST is by trying to bring down the C+C nuts, can't the OST be defended on its own merits? TGP has no problem in doing so.

Hey even I thought a couple more tracks wouldn't have hurt ToD. But I couldn't imagine listening to the entire 100 minutes or whatever the complete score is supposed to be.

So there is one of our fundamental differences, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to.

(enough with the 'superior to us lesser mortals' though, that kind of childish speak is like playing pat-a-cake with a dog's arse ...!)

[mrbellamy 6,291]

Get a room!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

(enough with the 'superior to us lesser mortals' though, that kind of childish speak is like playing pat-a-cake with a dog's arse ...!)

These for me are often just excuses to make up for lack of patience and even the lack of ability to process a larger amount of material, the 'fault' coming from the user and not the music.

[steb74 53]

Get a room!

(enough with the 'superior to us lesser mortals' though, that kind of childish speak is like playing pat-a-cake with a dog's arse ...!)

These for me are often just excuses to make up for lack of patience and even the lack of ability to process a larger amount of material, the 'fault' coming from the user and not the music.

Seriously Drax? ........sigh

[Quintus 5,399]

I heard Homecoming from Bridge of Spies. I wish Newman wasn't so boringly interchangeable and characterless.