leeallen01 2,136 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Shadowfax Origins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I found a lot of things risible about this episode. But actually pretty much everything about Arya in this episode was fantastic. Basically the only aspect of the episode that worked for me was her. I don't even know why she was there, she doesnt actually do anything in the episode but try and escape the onslaught. But yeah, at least it gave the carnage a point of view. But, yet another battle without any feeling of a narrative, or strategy, or eb and flow. At one point in the episode the all-encompassing firestorm begins, and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeallen01 2,136 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Episode 3 was a poor mans Battle of Helms Deep, and this episode was a poor mans Seige of Minas Tirith. They could both be set side by side in a film class as examples of how to do it and how not to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Stefancos said: But yeah, at least it gave the carnage a point of view. It was definitely the most well-done part of the episode from that perspective as well, making sure we really feel it. But yeah I'm pretty checked out at this point. I don't feel the dramatic stakes at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 It's a bit apples and oranges in that comparison, even in my efforts to use LotR as fair example, the battles were both different in what they were hoping to achieve. Most of the King's Landing sequences in this episode were brilliant, brilliantly crafted, shot and executed. If they had made that feeling of helplessness in a situation like that last the majority of an episode, it would've been great. Unfortunately it seemed like they were trying to wrap up the character arcs of three different people and each one was lessened by just how rushed it all was. 5 minutes ago, leeallen01 said: Episode 3 was a poor mans Battle of Helms Deep, and this episode was a poor mans Seige of Minas Tirith. They could both be set side by side in a film class as examples of how to do it and how not to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: But yeah I'm pretty checked out at this point. I don't feel the dramatic stakes at all. There are none. Dany has become the new big bad of the series, after Joffrey, Ramsey, Little Finger, the Night King and Cersei are gone. All the show needs to do to finish is to have her killed, and put someone who's better than her (and this point anyone who's left) in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Game of Thrones ended when Bran fell from the tower. Everything that happened since has been his dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yavar Moradi 2,603 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I loved Tyrion and Jaime, and Arya and Sandor, and uh... The Mountain and Qyburn. Good closure to those character relationship arcs. Was meh on Varys, and Cleganebowl was just okay. I imagined a lot better. Arya had the best arc here. Everything else this episode I pretty much hated. “The Long Night” was better. “The Last of the Starks” was better. If they were doing Mad Queen Danaerys they did really a terrible job. Why couldn’t they have done ten episodes for each of the last two seasons? Given that time they could have done an actual arc where this happens. But this was a huge letdown after “The Last of the Starks” actually gave me a bit of hope this might be better. Now I have pretty little hope about the last episode. Yavar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I love how Arya attempts to rescue that family telling them they'll die if they don't move - two minutes later fucking dead! bollemanneke and Yavar Moradi 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I found that pretty poignant and affecting actually. It was a hopeless situation and they were probably dead no matter what. Like, it felt very purposeful to me, that minor story beat. I sound like a defender of this episode, when I'm really not, it was mostly bad. But that whole section after Arya leaves Sandor was very well-done, even if ultimately in service of rushed clumsy storytelling. A. A. Ron and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 It was a smart tactical call! There was nowhere safe in the city - the only safe place was out! For all we know, a giant rock fell on that building, or it got cooked. It seems like most of you here seem to be most grouchy about execution, but people on Twitter at least are very grumpy about the very idea of Mad Queen Dany. " The showrunners screwed it up, she would never, etc!" And while it didn't seem like a bonkers sudden heel turn to me, I can see where people are coming from when they say that the show rushed it, mismanaged it, etc. But bad news - Martin told them in broad strokes where he is going with the story, so if he ever puts out books 6-7, those people should prepare to again come to terms with a) Dany going bad, and b) their theories being wrong. The Twitter stuff is almost TLJ-level in like "pissy because it's not what I wanted" Bilbo and Chen G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Yeah, Dany going bad has been a long time coming. Why it caught people unawares is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 It was definitely the execution of these various elements that felt silly and rushed and unintentionally comical. I agree that her tyrannical hatred of being questioned and her temper have been set up for years. She always had a penchant for cruelty against people who didn't immediately bow down before her. Yavar Moradi and Chen G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Oh, I'm not trying to say its a brilliant case of a tragic hero arc, but the intention is there at least one season back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Yeah, Dany going bad has been a long time coming. Why it caught people unawares is beyond me. Its not that it caught me at unawares, its that it didn't. Compare it to Breaking Bad, when you suddenly realize Walt is a monster. And that happened at different times for most. The change is subtle, gradual. With Daenerys its not, and you're not the one who suddenly realises the change, its forced upon you by the showrunners. Holko and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Like I said, I'm not saying its brilliant storytelling by any means. But some people are reacting as though it was a twist on the part of the most recent episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 It was cemented in the previous episode. Without the benefit of a well thought out set-up for it. In S8 she has the same problem Anakin had in the Prequels. Are we supposed to root for her? Not root for her? Is she the final big bad? The tragic hero? I dunno. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Varys repeated a line from an earlier season at the beginning about when a Targaryen is born it's like a coin flip if they'll be sadistic and crazy. But boiling that down to a specific moment for Daenerys where it actually feels like a coin flip (the bells) whether she'll go on a rage-filled massacre or not felt so simplistic and silly, instead of like the culmination of a well set-up character arc. Bad, bad storytelling. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: Varys repeated a line from an earlier season at the beginning about when a Targaryen is born it's like a coin flip if they'll be sadistic and crazy. But boiling that down to a specific moment for Daenerys where it actually feels like a coin flip (the bells) whether she'll go on a rage-filled massacre or not felt so simplistic and silly, instead of like the culmination of a well set-up character arc. Bad, bad storytelling. Preach it! bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 If anything I thought that moment to turn emotional and distraught and murderous was right after Missandei or whatever her name is was beheaded. A. A. Ron and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Jaime: I never cared about the innocent. Also Jaime: Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men women and children were burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?" Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Stefancos said: It was cemented in the previous episode. Without the benefit of a well thought out set-up for it. In S8 she has the same problem Anakin had in the Prequels. Are we supposed to root for her? Not root for her? Is she the final big bad? The tragic hero? It was cemented last season, when you see her fervor: "I was born to rule the seven kingdoms, and I will." The willingness to do anything to achieve it was there, so I can't say there isn't a setup. Ideally, with a tragic hero, you're supposed to root for him/her, but only up a point. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 There's quite a big fucking jump from "I will rule" to "let's burn thousands of innocent civilians alive after they surrendered, for no goddamn reason". Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I agree. Shitty writing! Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 My biggest disappointment with the episode was the handling of Jaime and Cersei, two huge characters killed off without any big, drawn out show-stopping way. All Cersei has this episode are reaction shots. No confrontation. Nothing. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Imagine her face if Jaime stabbed her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Like Obi Wan had to be the one to put Anakin down, Jaime could've fulfilled that role in an emotional finale. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 13, 2019 I'm pretty annoyed with the negative reaction being over simplified to "People don't like that Dany turned villain." That is not an accurate way to describe my reaction and it's another frustrating example of how people tend to treat criticism (where they take the dumbest peoples' reactions and compartmentalize all the critics in that group, just because it's easier that way). The internet always takes something nuanced and defines it by the simplest take. A. A. Ron, Yavar Moradi, Holko and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 13, 2019 Game of Thrones 8x05 The Bells I thought the episode was pretty good... up until the coin flip. Sure, the Varys storyline was ended ridiculously quickly, and his execution was sort of awkwardly portrayed (it seemed like everyone else there was in blast range of the dragon fire to me!). But at least for the first half of the episode, everyone was acting in character, and everyone's decisions made sense. And the beginning of Dany's attack had some cool shots, like the long take that followed Euron as he watched her blast 2 ships and then his own. And I like finally getting a good view of the size and scale of King's Landing, I feel like they never had the budget to properly show this before. Everything through her decimating their scorpions and army, with the combined Unsullied/Dothraki/North army taking out the rest of the soldiers, building up to when they laid down their swords, Dany rested waiting to see what would happen, and the bells finally tolled after some suspenseful build up... was all pretty good, I thought. Then the coin flip happened. I just don't know how to feel about it! On the one hand, of course it was always possible that she would just go mad, and it's certainly been hinted at many many times this season on top of all the seasons before. But the way the specific moment of turning was built up to was, well, the problem is that it wasn't. They even made it seem like she was specifically thinking about Cersei, and how she was currently in HER rightful castle, and then she began flying towards it, but then... just started burning innocent citizens for a few hours first instead? It was just odd, really. That being said, if you don't think about the poor writing that got you here, but just accept that we're now in a situation where Danerys has turned fully bad is is burning the city, and many of the "good guy" soldiers begin attacking innocents too, I thought the whole thing was actually well directed, the countless minutes the siege went on for really was uncomfortable and really let you feel the whole scope of her attack more so than other directors could have handled it. So that was all good. Almost all the character moments that happen during the siege were not, though. The Hound vs The Mountain was rather silly and pointless, I thought. I know they set up why The Hound hates his brother all the way back in the first season, but after all the growth we've seen him go through since then, it was kind of lame to see him just want to go mano-a-mano against him in the end, especially when the Mountain is still so much stronger and was even more armored than him too and The Hound had to real advantages against him to speak up. It's like he was just resigning to die, which again was just disappointing after all his prior growth. And I think the writers thought them falling into fire was poetic due to their backstory but it didn't work for me. Cersei and Jaime I didn't like either. I thought Cersei having no lines for most of the episode and just watching was lame after a while, and I didn't like that they didn't even have her say that she should have surrendered after all or anything like that. And Jaime was another case where I felt like all his character growth was just undone juts because the writers wanted it to be, the way he died crushed by rubble holding Cersei and their unborn child didn't work for me either, and his fighter with Euron prior was nothing special either. As for Arya, I liked that her growth as a character led to her deciding to give up on her kill list and do something else with her life, but the execution of it was just terrible. Like wouldn't her and The Hound had that conversation during their ride, not after sneaking into The Red Keep through a city under magical siege? Her trying to save a family then riding out on a horse really just seemed like it was so the writers could have a character we cared about to follow instead of random extras and that's about it. I thought the episode was going to end with Daenerys walking into the throne room as ash fell through the ceiling, like in that vision from Season 2, and end with her sitting on the throne, I was surprised when it ended before that. I feel like there's still A LOT of ground to cover in 80 minutes next week. We still have 6 living main characters (Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran) and a slew of side characters (Sam, Brienne, Bronn, Tormund, Gendry, Grey Worm, Yara). That's a lot of people to give endings to! It makes me wonder if HBO asked them to keep some side (IE, cheaper actors most willing to sign new multi year contracts) alive and in a spot where they could star in a spinoff... Arpy, Yavar Moradi and bollemanneke 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jay said: but the execution of it was just terrible. Like wouldn't her and The Hound had that conversation during their ride, not after sneaking into The Red Keep through a city under magical siege? I thought about that, too, but the convo and decision came up because Dany was destroying the Keep while they were in it, the circumstances were unexpected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 As with many storylines this year, sometime the end results isn't necessarily a bad one, it's just that they happen within seconds or minutes of screentime, instead of them being multi-episode threads that slowly build toward the end result. Like I can imagine Varys turning on Daenerys and being discovered and burned being a perfectly fine plot line if it took half a season or so to play out. Speaking of that... was he having that kid try to poison Daenerys in the beginning? And who was he writing to? And does Danerys really run her castle in a way that people can send ravens out without someone to oversee their content? Back to Arya, her decision to NOT kill Cersei after getting so close also could have been fine if we had spent a lot more time since her return from Braavos and reuniting with her family, if we actually got to have goo scenes speckled throughout where she talks about her drive and motivations and others talk about their concern for her, and if the Hound and her had multiple longer conversations about revenge and what it does to you, etc. Instead we just got two random beats of her and Gendry having a fling and then a single, short conversation with The Hound and that's that! Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Two major battles in a row where Jon Snow, the rightful heir, basically plays a supporting role! Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Kit Harington; highest paid extra on TV. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 It's clear now that there is no possible way Danereys is not dying in the final episode, and I can't imagine the writers having anyone but Jon being the one to do it, unless they want to subvert our expectations again and have Deus Ex Arya do the deed again bollemanneke and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Alex said: “Okay Lena, we know you play one of the most important and most developed characters on show, but this season you’ll just be smirking, drinking wine and looking out over Kings Landing” Did she literally get 10 lines of dialog this season? Couldn't have been above 2-3 pages of dialog total. For the supposed big baddie. She has precious little to do. 1 23 minutes ago, leeallen01 said: - Arya forcing a woman and child against their will to leave the safety of a building that they, and tens of people seem to be surviving fine in, and then 10 seconds later they die... - Arya choosing to give up the 'revenge life' after the Hound said don't do it cause it's not good... - Arya finding a perfectly calm and untouched horse to escape on... Literally the entire episode I am waiting for Arya to do anything. Literally anything. I was like - she could have stayed in the North. She is not serving any purpose here at all. And then I thought as a story-writer, they just wanted a named character to experience this supposed tragedy. So transparent. And literally 2 mins later in the behind the scenes, the makers admit, "You know who actually gives a single fuck about the people of King's Landing of all things. NOBODY! So for the forced carnage to make any sense at all, let's throw in a character that the audience actually likes to showcase the sense of tragedy. Otherwise its a bunch of extras running around." Even they admit that their big plot point - Dany is bad because she killed all these people - is undercut by them themselves saying nobody gives a fuck about said people. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jay said: As with many storylines this year, sometime the end results isn't necessarily a bad one, it's just that they happen within seconds or minutes of screentime, instead of them being multi-episode threads that slowly build toward the end result. This is it, basically. Ever since S7 they have crammed about 4 seasons of plot into 2 short seasons, while skimming on character development. Everything is driven by plot now. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 And it's they themselves who decided to rush it and get out even when HBO was willing to up the budget and do 10 episode seasons. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 11 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said: I'll point out the major problem with this show - it is at this point completely transparent. Stories are constructions created by the author. The interest in stories is almost like those in magic tricks, you go through the story and then you admire the construction and the design and how it was put together. You also appreciate the internal logic - the glue that holds it all together. With this season, we can see the machinery inside, the wheels turning, the entire artifice is laid bare. This show has ceased to be about the choices that the characters will make. It is now all about the choices that the writers will make. And this lends a degree of arbitrariness to the story that makes it completely meaningless. There are no stakes, no meaning, no nothing here because basically anything can happen. History does not matter, precedent doesn't matter, character logic, logic itself. The only thing that matters is whatever the hell the writers want to do. The episode was fine for what it was - a big-budget spectacle. Almost like a disaster movie. But felt completely empty. There is no order here, no grand design. Only chaos. If that was the ultimate goal of the writers - to tell the audience that there is only ever chaos in life, it could have been done in a much more powerful and existential way rather than the pointless bloodletting of this final season. Woah, this is spot on, especially the parts I bolded. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,319 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 52 minutes ago, mstrox said: The Twitter stuff is almost TLJ-level in like "pissy because it's not what I wanted" Basically this. On 5/10/2019 at 10:06 PM, Docteur Qui said: The old adage of "No-one hates Star Wars more than fans of Star Wars" is very, very much in play here. And this. Season 8 is not without its flaws but the level of vitriol being thrown around here is ridiculous. It's going to be hilarious when the final two books are released and people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended. Does that mean I wouldn't have preferred season 8 was a couple of episodes longer and had more room to breathe? Of course not, but it is what it is. Personally I've found the compression has heightened the drama, knowing that something overtly dramatic could happen without notice (like the iron fleet ambush last week), but I also understand why people take narrative issue with it. But I'm not going to suddenly hate on everything about the show and pick apart every plot point to within an inch of its life, just like those toxic Star Wars "fans" since TLJ (remember how everyone despised the prequels but now they're apparently masterpieces and the new films are cinematic abominations?) My recommendation is just enjoy this for what it is. If you build your expectations up to unreasonable levels, it's inevitably going to disappoint. This episode was a brilliant spectacle and had me clutching the edge of my seat. The downfall of Dany, succumbing to Targaryen madness, was tragic to behold. And in true Stark fashion, Jon's stubborn insistence on honour above making the tough decisions, was directly responsible for great suffering. Looking forward to seeing how everything wraps up next week. Seeing as some posters are now openly discussing that they've read final episode spoilers, I doubt I'll bother venturing into this thread from now on. Bilbo and Glóin the Dark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Holko said: I'll give it this: this episode looked and was staged damn well for the most part. It went back to at least showing the "what?" well while completely skimping on the "why?". I agree with that; Miguel Sapochnik's directing was good in my opinion. The script is, of course, the issue. 8 hours ago, Holko said: Why are they only bringing citizens in on the morning of the siege? I didn't get that either; didn't they mention last week that she had brought everyone inside already to be human shields? 8 hours ago, Holko said: How come now the Iron Fleet only has one single scorpion? Last episode they were shooting like 20 arrows at the dragons at once before having to reload, now only Euron has one? ANd why is Dany only torching them now instead of last episode? GREAT questions. 8 hours ago, Holko said: Sandor and Arya was touching, at least the Hound gets fine closure. They make him state out loud that he realizes revenge is a bad thing, then rushes to enact it anyway, and that's closure? Proper closure would have been giving up on fighting his brother, and going WITH Arya to help her, and dying was sacrificing himself to let her live. 8 hours ago, Holko said: Quiburn's death was great and satisfying! I agree with that! 8 hours ago, Holko said: What was the point of Arya becoming a Faceless Man again beside growing her plot armor? I thought so too! When Qyburn showed up in her room, I was like "oh! That's really Arya in disguise!" Nope. Then when she was alone and Jaime found her, I was like "Oh! That's really Arya in disguise!" Nope. You are left wandering what her plan was to try to kill Cersei, and we're all still left somewhat confused about how her magic powers really work. It's the same thing as Bran really, the writers gave them massive powers that could theoretically enable them to take over the world if they wanted, but they actually really do nothing with them. Holko and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 minute ago, crumbs said: It's going to be hilarious when the final two books are released and people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended. That's probably the case. But its all about execution. And the way its done on the show is...sloppy. it feels random. Watch Better Call Saul for a modern show that does this sorta thing right. I can't predict what will happen next season, because the show is so character driven and well written. With GoT I can't predict who will sit on the Iron Throne next week, because it no longer makes any difference. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, crumbs said: Basically this. And this. Season 8 is not without its flaws but the level of vitriol being thrown around here is ridiculous. It's going to be hilarious when the final two books are released and people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended. Does that mean I wouldn't have preferred season 8 was a couple of episodes longer and had more room to breathe? Of course not, but it is what it is. Personally I've found the compression has heightened the drama, knowing that something overtly dramatic could happen without notice (like the iron fleet ambush last week), but I also understand why people take narrative issue with it. But I'm not going to suddenly hate on everything about the show and pick apart every plot point to within an inch of its life, just like those toxic Star Wars "fans" since TLJ (remember how everyone despised the prequels but now they're apparently masterpieces and the new films are cinematic abominations?) My recommendation is just enjoy this for what it is. If you build your expectations up to unreasonable levels, it's inevitably going to disappoint. This episode was a brilliant spectacle and had me clutching the edge of my seat. The downfall of Dany, succumbing to Targaryen madness, was tragic to behold. And in true Stark fashion, Jon's stubborn insistence on honour above making the tough decisions, was directly responsible for great suffering. Looking forward to seeing how everything wraps up next week. Seeing as some posters are now openly discussing that they've read final episode spoilers, I doubt I'll bother venturing into this thread from now on. Crumbs, come on. You must be reacting to elsewhere on the internet, because in this thread, while we clearly don't like it and you did, I don't see any TLJ style "fan theory" backlash idiocy. We're intelligently discussing why we thought the episode was badly executed. Just because you're enjoying it for what it is, why do you feel the need to tell us all our reactions are not just wrong, but invalid or something? Nothing toxic in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 hours ago, leeallen01 said: - Tyrion having a heartfelt goodbye with Varys after L.I.T.E.R.A.L.L.Y betraying him to Dany about 20 seconds before... I dind't mind that, I thought it was in character. 3 hours ago, leeallen01 said: - The entire Iron Fleet AND hundreds of positions on the walls of Kings Landing failing to hit the dragon with thousands of giant arrows, yet only one managed to hit another dragon in 1 shot in the last episode... Agree, very lame 3 hours ago, leeallen01 said: - Dany being so vengeful against Cersei that she burns the entire civilian population of Kings Landing, yet she forgets about Cersei entirely... Agreed, it would have been so simple to have her START by going after Cersei, but she is unable to reach her or something, then start attacking the city looking for her, something like that. Having her specifically ignore the red keep (for a while) and specifically burn innocent citizens and their houses and not soldiers and the castle was just odd. Holko, leeallen01 and Yavar Moradi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jay said: Quote Sandor and Arya was touching, at least the Hound gets fine closure. They make him state out loud that he realizes revenge is a bad thing, then rushes to enact it anyway, and that's closure? Proper closure would have been giving up on fighting his brother, and going WITH Arya to help her, and dying was sacrificing himself to let her live. Well by satisfying closure I meant he wasn't completely ruined like others. He actually took active measures in saving Arya's life and sanity, having no actual stakes (bounty on her head, promise of reward) apart from liking her. 6 minutes ago, crumbs said: people discover D&D followed all the major broad strokes that Martin intended. THat is exactly what they did, they were just too lazy and burnt out to flesh them out and fill them in. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Mad Dany wasn't as problematic for me, it was inevitable. And with better execution, could have actually been quite tragic. Something about the awfully reductionist take of all these characters in this episode really rubbed me the wrong way though. We've spent 8 seasons investing in these characters with almost painfully nuanced narrative material, and it was almost comical to see them reduced to caricatures of themselves. The Hound spends 20min fighting the Mountain, Jaime runs to Cersei again, Cersei cries about her child, Jon makes mopey faces at suffering...aside from Arya's change of direction (which itself was executed clumsily), everyone became one-liners. So all these seasons just feel so redundant. Also, I don't think the siege had much of a dramatic arc at all after the "coin-flip" moment. Poorly put together in my opinion, with too many convenient cuts. Clarke had her best performance in a while though. I really felt her conviction, before she became a CG dot in the sky, of course. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,319 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Stefancos said: Watch Better Call Saul for a modern show that does this sorta thing right. I can't predict what will happen next season, because the show is so character driven and well written. With GoT I can't predict who will sit on the Iron Throne next week, because it no longer makes any difference. I do watch BCS but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. That show has a very small handful of main characters (especially following Spoiler Chuck's death ) you're meant to follow, and essentially you know the ending courtesy of BB. GOT is a sprawling medieval epic with dozens of characters, multiple houses, a vast history of story that we're only given fragments of throughout the show. It's no easy feat adapting into a 10-episode-per-season series (much less with the reduced episodes of seasons 7 and 8). Again, I do think the reduced episode count and accelerated timeline has probably not helped, overall, creating an impression that events are happening too quickly or without sufficient foreshadowing/setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 23 hours ago, Holko said: Jaime: I never cared about the innocent. Also Jaime: Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men women and children were burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?" Haha, great point! 23 hours ago, Chen G. said: It was cemented last season, when you see her fervor: "I was born to rule the seven kingdoms, and I will." The willingness to do anything to achieve it was there, so I can't say there isn't a setup. Ideally, with a tragic hero, you're supposed to root for him/her, but only up a point. Right... 23 hours ago, Holko said: There's quite a big fucking jump from "I will rule" to "let's burn thousands of innocent civilians alive after they surrendered, for no goddamn reason". Exactly! So very true. How disappointing... 23 hours ago, Arpy said: My biggest disappointment with the episode was the handling of Jaime and Cersei, two huge characters killed off without any big, drawn out show-stopping way. All Cersei has this episode are reaction shots. No confrontation. Nothing. Yea, big let down. If this was all they were gonna do with her this year, they should have had Dany take over King's Landing first LAST season, have her still be "good", then this season at the battle of Winterfell they actually lose and retreat to King's Landing, then now at the final hour they finally defeat the Night King, but then after he's dead, Dany finally goes mad and burns innocent civilians anyway. Something that would have made more sense than how the ended up handling the final two seasons. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, KK said: Clarke had her best performance in a while though. I really felt her conviction, before she became a CG dot in the sky, of course. Yes, she's doing excellent work as Mad Queen Dany, and now they barely show her. How many reaction shots did we have of her once the bell started tolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I don't believe we saw Clarke again after she turned, she was only just a cgi blip on a cgi dragon after that. Which is why I was so surprised the episode didn't end with her sitting on the iron throne as ashes fell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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