Modern Film Scores Are Terrible

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Interesting article from The Sunday Times.

Some will say it's ironic that it's Zimmer doing all the talking

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I read it before.

[Quintus 5,399]

The irony of that (2008) article is spectacular.

[Datameister 2,042]

Agreed - although on the other hand, Zimmer has never been one to praise his own work as being better than or even on par with the stuff most of us prefer. He's made some rather egotistical-sounding comments at times, but on the whole, whenever the topic of composers like Williams or Goldsmith comes up, he's extremely complimentary. So this isn't that much of a surprise. And honestly, although Zimmer has spearheaded this movement that's helped lead to so much mediocrity, his work does tend to be better than that of his imitators.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Yes, I agree. I think members here dislike him because of the movement he spawned, but in truth, his own work is above average.

[Neimoidian 14]

Yes, I agree. I think members here dislike him because of the movement he spawned, but in truth, his own work is above average.

Mostly true.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

People are seeing the light!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Zimmer's work is enjoyable on a basic level.

It's his legacy and the studios sucking the blood from it that spells death for good film music.

Sure, Zimmer is the first one to acknowledge he can't touch the great names. And yet, he continues to take his average music for films like DaVinci Code or Dark Knight to an almost philosophical level by talking about it like it's the reinvention of the fucking wheel.

If he truly wants film music to better, he should place a time bomb under the Remote Control facilities and tie himself to the subwoofer.

[fommes 153]

A time bomb with a subwoofer. Creative thinking!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Maybe Djawadi can use the explosion as a special sound effect on Game Of Thrones.

[Kevin 22]

No one so far has mentioned the biggest reason why film music is the way it is:

The reason is: Jerry Bruckheimer

It's his taste in music in his [mostly] successful movies that have changed the way movies are scored today.

When Hans Zimmer first started Media Ventures/Remote Control, he intended it to be like what Apple was to the Beatles, a way for the less fortunate talented musicians to express themselves. But it mutated with the Jerry Bruckheimer virus and that's how we got to where we are today.

[Datameister 2,042]

I don't think Bruckheimer can be solely blamed for it. Film music is what it is today because this style is easier to successfully imitate, and because it appeals to the general public in a very visceral, popular-music-like way. As with any trend, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what made it become such a big deal, but these sorts of scores are comparatively easy to write, and they seem to work well for the majority of movie-goers.

Another factor is simply the cultural climate these days...the music that Williams and Goldsmith and their brethren became famous for is very emotionally open. It has a certain sincerity and vulnerability and subtlety and optimism to it. That's not so popular these days. Zimmer and friends write music that is "cooler." It more closely approximates the feelings people get from non-orchestral popular music, and people go for that.

In any case, nothing lasts forever. Film scores will continue to change in the years and decades to come, and although we'll never see a repeat of the 70s through 90s, I don't think it's unrealistic to hope for film music to be reinvented again before too long. Power anthems and brooding ostinati will feel dated before long, and not just to jaded film score buffs like us.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Another factor is simply the cultural climate these days...the music that Williams and Goldsmith and their brethren became famous for is very emotionally open. It has a certain sincerity and vulnerability and subtlety and optimism to it. That's not so popular these days. Zimmer and friends write music that is "cooler." It more closely approximates the feelings people get from non-orchestral popular music, and people go for that.

Yep, it's the hipster appeal. Anything that's "cool", cynical, and pseudo-arty, they buy into.

[Wojo 2,453]

But Zimmer and crew is still not the only compositional force in Hollywood. If he was, then why are Giacchino, Shore, Elfman, Desplat, that Abel K guy from Poland, and to a much reduced amount, Horner and Williams, all still working?

Even Powell, from that camp, knows how to put some real instruments into his scores, and Zimmer has been known to write a few really good scores from time to time.

It's like recalling the popular music scene of the 1970s and grimacing, "oh I don't like disco, the 70s sucked" even though you could listen to days and days' worth of rock and country that all became "classic" without ever tap dancing within an inch of the disco sound. Yet the decade and disco seem inseparable to many.

Modern film scores are just fine. Everything goes in cycles, and what used to be popular shall be again, and what is now soon won't be. As long as I have quality music on CD and record to fall back on, I'm set.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It's more that most of these composers you list have been assimilated into a homogenised sound world, paved forth by Media Ventures. Yes, even Shore and Giacchino. They may have better understanding of the orchestra than Zimmer, but they've still had to compromise.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I have yet to hear Giacchino compromise to a sound other than his own.

[Datameister 2,042]

Well, I maintain that Star Trek did have some slight similarities to the way Zimmer does things, at least when you compare it to Giacchino's other work. Still sounds very much like a Giacchino score, not a Zimmer score, but there's a little bit of "contamination." That's nothing compared to what we've heard from Doyle and Silvestri and JNH, though.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't make too many comments about the state of modern film music, because the fact of the matter is that I haven't been seeing too many new films for the last few years. Just too expensive for a cheapskate like me, and I'm sad to say I haven't had many people to go with. But I've still done a decent job of sampling what's out there, I think, and I'm largely disappointed by what I hear.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I have yet to hear Giacchino compromise to a sound other than his own.

I have. I often hear shades of Zimmer in Giacchino's scores, compromised or not.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Examples?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

This reads like an Onion article.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

But Zimmer and crew is still not the only compositional force in Hollywood. If he was, then why are Giacchino, Shore, Elfman, Desplat, that Abel K guy from Poland, and to a much reduced amount, Horner and Williams, all still working?

Even Powell, from that camp, knows how to put some real instruments into his scores, and Zimmer has been known to write a few really good scores from time to time.

It's like recalling the popular music scene of the 1970s and grimacing, "oh I don't like disco, the 70s sucked" even though you could listen to days and days' worth of rock and country that all became "classic" without ever tap dancing within an inch of the disco sound. Yet the decade and disco seem inseparable to many.

Modern film scores are just fine. Everything goes in cycles, and what used to be popular shall be again, and what is now soon won't be. As long as I have quality music on CD and record to fall back on, I'm set.

This.

[crocodile 8,012]

Speaking of Zimmer, I've been thinking lately of venturing into the realm of his lesser known works. Stuff like Driving Miss Daisy, Green Card, Pacific Heights, Beyond Rangoon, The House of the Spirits. I am completely unfamiliar with those. I have a feeling there is still much to discover about Hans.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm totally unfamiliar with the inner working of the elementary canal, but I see no reason to change that.

[crocodile 8,012]

Zimmer-o-phobe! There should be a rule forbidding this kind of bahaviour...

Or something...

Karol

[Johnnyecks 33]

Early Zimmer, to me, is quite enjoyable. It reminds me of a time when that "synth" sound was become more and more popular and reminds me of where I was when I first listened to these scores. I'm frighteningly nostalgic like that.

[Neimoidian 14]

Beyond Rangoon is brilliant. One of Zimmer's best. Too bad he doesn't write like this anymore.

[Kevin 22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbyMVf40k2s

[gkgyver 1,645]

For the entire weekend, I had (and still have!) "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time" from Pirates 3 in my head.

Not the abysmal first half, but the last four minutes.

Probably the most engaging minutes of the Zimmer-scored movies.

[indy4 155]

It is a great track. And I agree, I'm not a big fan of the first half, but the second is really great. I wouldn't call it the best minutes he's written, but it's certainly up there.

[crocodile 8,012]

For the entire weekend, I had (and still have!) "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time" from Pirates 3 in my head.

Not the abysmal first half, but the last four minutes.

Probably the most engaging minutes of the Zimmer-scored movies.

Yes. I think it has something to do with Steve Bartek doing orchestrations.

Karol

[fommes 153]

This reads like an Onion article.

[Ollie 1,059]

It is a great track. And I agree, I'm not a big fan of the first half, but the second is really great. I wouldn't call it the best minutes he's written, but it's certainly up there.

I've often mentioned those 5 minutes as something positive.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

I'd say that what Hollywood is asking of composers at the moment, in general, is a load of crap, but there are still plenty of composers sticking to a traditional sort of score.

I recently discovered Beltrami's Soul Surfer for example - a superb example of a composer untouched by the RCP effect.

But, what is 'terrible' about the state of scores these days is that it's considered bold and risky to commission an orchestral score with themes. Did these executives not watch Lost, and notice the lack of hate mail demanding to know who wrote this music?

The difference is clearly displayed in the MoH box. I haven't even ripped Djawadi's score, because for the most part, it's creatively bankrupt compared to what Giacchino and Lennertz wrote (and yes, I consider Djawadi among those currently ruining film music).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

How would you want Medal Of Honor (2010) scored, then? Giacchino's lush and sweeping action pieces wouldn't fit. You're comparing WWII to modern day Afghanistan. I understand the point you're trying to make, but you can't make it with this particular score. Modern warfare has its own sound like countless other genres.

Not to mention Djawadi wrote a great theme for a very short game. The story can be beat in 3-4 hours.

[crocodile 8,012]

Don't you think this modern approach is a bit cliché and passé (and all the other high-brow French words that I don't know) at this point? These kind of things don't have the orchestra's longevity.

Karol

[Alejandro 26]

There is some good music coming out of films these days, but not nearly the quantity like in previous decades.

This could be because of what was previously stated: that filmmakers are demanding a certain "sound." But I disagree that creating a certain sound means dumping solid music writing.

What happened to writing a great 4-minute set piece for the film, like an overture even if it isn't "classic" in nature? I was watching three movies over the weekend: Clue, Dennis the Menace, and Kindergarten Cop. If those films had been made today and used composers popular today, the scores would have had music that sucked--just because of the way that many modern composers tackle cues. Composers for the most part no longer write mini-concert pieces for their projects, which is a shame.

How come composers don't tackle scenes like they used to? Scores to romantic comedies and crappy dramas nowadays have scores that one can't really differentiate anymore from one another.

I still argue that 1993 was the last great year for film scores (and for movies!). Today, would we get a "Rookie of the Year" score like we did from Bill Conti? Would 'Free Willy" have that gorgeous Basil theme? Jerry's "Rudy?"

Or great scores with solid "mini-concert" tracks like we found 1993's "Age of Innocence," "Cliffhanger," "Dave," "Dragon: Bruce Lee Story," "The Firm," "The Fugitive," "Jurassic Park," "Schindler's List," "Mrs. Doubtfire,"

Even Beethoven's 2nd, Point of No Return, RoboCop 3, Pelican Brief, and Searching for Bobby Fisher had very good scores.

I think a lot of composers of the past were "Talented classical composers who just happened to work in film," rather than today's mostly "filmmakers who happen to like to write music."

Today's films are missing those wonderful set pieces because many composers haven't really been adequately trained in composition; they haven't studied enough.

That's a shame. You'll find that those who you really love in today's modern climate mostly likely have that training.

[Ricard 2,245]

There is some good music coming out of films these days, but not nearly the quantity like in previous decades.

This could be because of what was previously stated: that filmmakers are demanding a certain "sound." But I disagree that creating a certain sound means dumping solid music writing.

What happened to writing a great 4-minute set piece for the film, like an overture even if it isn't "classic" in nature? I was watching three movies over the weekend: Clue, Dennis the Menace, and Kindergarten Cop. If those films had been made today and used composers popular today, the scores would have had music that sucked--just because of the way that many modern composers tackle cues. Composers for the most part no longer write mini-concert pieces for their projects, which is a shame.

How come composers don't tackle scenes like they used to? Scores to romantic comedies and crappy dramas nowadays have scores that one can't really differentiate anymore from one another.

I still argue that 1993 was the last great year for film scores (and for movies!). Today, would we get a "Rookie of the Year" score like we did from Bill Conti? Would 'Free Willy" have that gorgeous Basil theme? Jerry's "Rudy?"

Or great scores with solid "mini-concert" tracks like we found 1993's "Age of Innocence," "Cliffhanger," "Dave," "Dragon: Bruce Lee Story," "The Firm," "The Fugitive," "Jurassic Park," "Schindler's List," "Mrs. Doubtfire,"

Even Beethoven's 2nd, Point of No Return, RoboCop 3, Pelican Brief, and Searching for Bobby Fisher had very good scores.

I think a lot of composers of the past were "Talented classical composers who just happened to work in film," rather than today's mostly "filmmakers who happen to like to write music."

Today's films are missing those wonderful set pieces because many composers haven't really been adequately trained in composition; they haven't studied enough.

That's a shame. You'll find that those who you really love in today's modern climate mostly likely have that training.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Today's films are missing those wonderful set pieces because many composers haven't really been adequately trained in composition; they haven't studied enough.

Nonsense.

Musical education is at an all time high. Even such prestigious schools as Juilliard are admitting more people than ever before. Couple that with the fact that in 1980 there were less than 200 movies released, whereareas 2011 is going to pump out 600. Of course there will be more boring music.

The simple truth is there isn't enough talent to keep up with triple volume of films. Products can be tripled in volume. The number of talented people cannot.

[Datameister 2,042]

I agree, but if that were the only factor here (which I hope you're not suggesting), we would still be seeing the same absolute levels of top-notch scores, despite the dip in relative levels. I don't believe that's been the case. I honestly don't care how many bland or terrible scores are out there, since there've always been plenty of 'em. I care about the cream of the crop, which I think has been not so creamy lately.

Ultimately, I think the biggest issue is trendiness. Due in no small part to the success of several films Williams was attached to in the 70s and 80s, traditional-ish symphonic scores enjoyed a boom in popularity and trendiness, so that's what a lot of people wrote (or tried to write) for a while. Then Zimmer came along and offered a workflow that was less about one man's craftsmanship and more about a group's engineering skills, producing a sound that was "cooler" and less difficult to successfully mimic, as long as you had the cash to buy the right gear and a certain degree of musical talent.

Naturally, I'm over-generalizing here, and I know there's a lot of stuff out there right now that's not really directly related to Zimmer's sound(s), but still. Trends, man. Once an idea takes off, it'll go places. Fortunately in cases like this, they always run out of gas and crash eventually.

[Quintus 5,399]

Here's my take: talent is at an all time low.

That is all it is.

All this bull about set-pieces and concert arrangements is just nostalgia.

[Henry B 50]

Here's my take: talent is at an all time low.

That is all it is.

All this bull about set-pieces and concert arrangements is just nostalgia.

Talent is at an all time high, if anything. It's taste and inclination that are the problem (or not, depending on your view). Most film composers still have top music school educations. It's just that they've chosen, or have been pressured, to write in seemingly simplistic styles. How about those insanely short production schedules? They're very limiting to all but the most quick thinking composers (Goldsmith, for example).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I actually think the likes of Williams and Goldsmith did their fair share of influencing the music today.

Think about it, why were the Star Wars soundtracks so cool to you when you were little? Because of the chopping strings in "Attacking a Star Destroyer"! Because of the dark brooding music of "The Final Duel." Where in orchestral music before had you heard something like 1:25-1:40 of "Open the Gates" from the Final Frontier? It's almost orchestral head banger music! And it's brilliant and exciting!

I for one had never heard an orchestra play music...like THAT before! To me an orchestra played things like Mozart with finesse, and it was smoooooth refined music. And then all of the sudden you had composers like Williams and Goldsmith and Herrmann and Horner who wrote this aggressive, darker, modern music mixed in with the more traditional orchestral music.

And I think a lot of the younger composers who got into the orchestra latched on to those elements and it drove them into orchestral music. And what do they write now? Chopping action. Dark brooding music. If I could describe modern film scores today in one word, it would be "fanboyish."

It just goes to show, everything in moderation.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Most film composers still have top music school educations.

Names?

I for one had never heard an orchestra play music...like THAT before! To me an orchestra played things like Mozart with finesse, and it was smoooooth refined music.

Same here, at first. But then, when I was 7, I hadn't listened to much classical music of the 20th century. That's where most of Williams and Goldsmith's influences lie. Compare that with Zimmer, who most comfortably fits into the prog rock tradition, while looking mostly to the greats of the 18th century (he's even admitted this himself).

Either way, it's two very different lineages - one pop, one classical. That's not to say Williams and Goldsmith haven't taken a few hints from the world of pop (one only has to look at their 70s work), and vice versa. But that's more an exception, not the rule.

And I think a lot of the younger composers who got into the orchestra latched on to those elements and it drove them into orchestral music. And what do they write now? Chopping action. Dark brooding music. If I could describe modern film scores today in one word, it would be "fanboyish."

Yeah, you're onto something there. It seems that contemporary film composers aren't looking to the concert field (both the full repertoire and recent works) anymore (I think Don Davis is one of the very few) - just past film music. A good deal of that is in itself secondhand, so you what you're getting is a third-hand, diluted product. Instead, they should be going after the source.

[Ollie 1,059]

All I know is the number of film scores I've bought that were composed in the past 10-15 years are significantly smaller than purchases for music prior to the 90's.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The price for a CD these days surpasses the actual value of the music by lengths most of the time.

That's why I seldomly buy CDs anymore.

Seriously, why should I plunk 18 Euro down the toilet for a CD of Clash Of The Titans, Transformers, Pirates 4, Thor or that Trent Raznor stuff?

It's not worth buying for one or two interesting listens.

But these are the CDs you find in stores because they belong to the big movies. Soundtracks to other films I find in stores weeks after their Amazon release date.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Today's films are missing those wonderful set pieces because many composers haven't really been adequately trained in composition; they haven't studied enough.

Nonsense.

Musical education is at an all time high. Even such prestigious schools as Juilliard are admitting more people than ever before.

Quint's point still stands.

Just because "musical education is at an all time high", that doesn't necessarily equate to these Julliard-trained composers are entering the film industry at a recording breaking level.

[Datameister 2,042]

I actually think the likes of Williams and Goldsmith did their fair share of influencing the music today.

Think about it, why were the Star Wars soundtracks so cool to you when you were little? Because of the chopping strings in "Attacking a Star Destroyer"! Because of the dark brooding music of "The Final Duel." Where in orchestral music before had you heard something like 1:25-1:40 of "Open the Gates" from the Final Frontier? It's almost orchestral head banger music! And it's brilliant and exciting!

I for one had never heard an orchestra play music...like THAT before! To me an orchestra played things like Mozart with finesse, and it was smoooooth refined music. And then all of the sudden you had composers like Williams and Goldsmith and Herrmann and Horner who wrote this aggressive, darker, modern music mixed in with the more traditional orchestral music.

And I think a lot of the younger composers who got into the orchestra latched on to those elements and it drove them into orchestral music. And what do they write now? Chopping action. Dark brooding music. If I could describe modern film scores today in one word, it would be "fanboyish."

It just goes to show, everything in moderation.

Nicely put. I agree, one of the biggest reasons I go for film scores is because they tend to use the incredible palette afforded by the modern orchestra while avoiding the rather tame, carefully organized, "refined" sensibilities that permeate much of the "classical" repertoire. (As Prometheus so rightly pointed out, that started to really change in the 20th century, which is why I've been able to get into some of that stuff.) I think it's fair to sum up the work of Zimmer et al. as a big additional step in the same direction, and our problem is that we liked the happy medium where we found Williams and Goldsmith and the like.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

The price for a CD these days surpasses the actual value of the music by lengths most of the time.

That's why I seldomly buy CDs anymore.

Seriously, why should I plunk 18 Euro down the toilet for a CD of Clash Of The Titans, Transformers, Pirates 4, Thor or that Trent Raznor stuff?

It's not worth buying for one or two interesting listens.

But these are the CDs you find in stores because they belong to the big movies. Soundtracks to other films I find in stores weeks after their Amazon release date.

That's very, very subjective. I'd fall over myself to pay £8 for a full CD of Spidey 3 music, whereas I still don't own the original release of Spidey 1.

Quality can be comparable, but if there are strong personal emotions in one score, you're going to be willing to pay more for it.

[Henry B 50]

I actually think the likes of Williams and Goldsmith did their fair share of influencing the music today.

Think about it, why were the Star Wars soundtracks so cool to you when you were little? Because of the chopping strings in "Attacking a Star Destroyer"! Because of the dark brooding music of "The Final Duel." Where in orchestral music before had you heard something like 1:25-1:40 of "Open the Gates" from the Final Frontier? It's almost orchestral head banger music! And it's brilliant and exciting!

I for one had never heard an orchestra play music...like THAT before! To me an orchestra played things like Mozart with finesse, and it was smoooooth refined music. And then all of the sudden you had composers like Williams and Goldsmith and Herrmann and Horner who wrote this aggressive, darker, modern music mixed in with the more traditional orchestral music.

And I think a lot of the younger composers who got into the orchestra latched on to those elements and it drove them into orchestral music. And what do they write now? Chopping action. Dark brooding music. If I could describe modern film scores today in one word, it would be "fanboyish."

It just goes to show, everything in moderation.

Nicely put. I agree, one of the biggest reasons I go for film scores is because they tend to use the incredible palette afforded by the modern orchestra while avoiding the rather tame, carefully organized, "refined" sensibilities that permeate much of the "classical" repertoire. (As Prometheus so rightly pointed out, that started to really change in the 20th century, which is why I've been able to get into some of that stuff.) I think it's fair to sum up the work of Zimmer et al. as a big additional step in the same direction, and our problem is that we liked the happy medium where we found Williams and Goldsmith and the like.

Tame and refined?

They were writing in a language, yes, but no more so than John Williams writes in a language. Composers have always been trying to push the boundaries. John Dunstaple and Leonel Power's "English countenance" made music more pretty and sonorous than ever before. Josquin Des Prez was said to have written the first truly emotional music. Claudio Monteverdi's "seconda prattica" was an attempt to throw out the rules in favor of telling stories and conveying feelings through music. Bach's sons explored emotional extremes with "Sturm und Drang" music. The Romantics greatly expanded the tonal language in ever increasing pursuits of profound emotions. The Impressionists took music to abstract, mysterious places.

But every time, it's really the same story. Revolutionary composers pushing the limits of what's acceptable. These people were crazy. They fought, they had affairs, they lost fortunes and died in poverty, and they lived through wars, famines and plagues - or met their ends. One Renaissance madrigal composer murdered his wife and her lover, and maybe their love child too. Schumann died in an insane asylum. I don't really know where the stereotype of stodgy court musicians in wigs sipping tea and playing fluttery harpsichord music comes from. Yeah, to be sure, some of them did just that, but it's a very narrow social stereotype that utterly fails to encompass the history of Western music. You don't have to listen to some violin sonata and be overcome with emotion. That's subjective. Just understand that there's a very good chance somebody put the utmost passion into its composition and performance.

And carefully organized? Hell yes it is. What's music worth if you just screw around? The best jazz improvisations can be transcribed and analyzed like compositions. I've heard it said that you shouldn't even attempt to solo over a tune in public until you've practiced it a hundred different ways. John Williams' music, I'm sure you'd agree, is VERY carefully organized, and when it's not, well, you're probably looking at some of his weaker music (certain prequel action cues, for example). While it may seem more diverse and imaginative, it's only because Williams has climbed the shoulders of everyone who came before.

Again, nobody says you have to like the stuff. I'm just suggesting different ways to think about it.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

No one is saying that all classical (synonym for traditional western) music is tame and refined, Henry. But that is a characteristic that is typical of classical music from the classical period, and even into romantic. You simply don't get out of the box takes and performances out of the orchestra until much later.