The endless yearn (aka why do you want all of a film's music?)

[Thor 7,526]

You know what I think the difference is between the two main "sides"? I think there are those who like film music and those who like music which happens to appear in a film. THAT is the real difference.

The source of the music is not irrelevant to me. The "brand" of the movie plays a part in the experience. Also, music written for film tends to hold no stops, to be expressive, to be boldly emotional. It's deep-rooted and visceral. More so than a lot of other orchestral genres.

It's irresistible.

That's also true. It's the "specificness" of the music that is so appealing to me, compared to other musical genres (including classical). The music has to get to the emotional point more quickly and succinctly as it has to answer to specific timings and visuals. That's why I don't want to change the integrity of the chosen tracks themselves (with a few exceptions). However, the film (or source) is irrelevant to me in the sense that I don't want it dictating how it should be organized alone. I don't really care where the music comes from, as long as the 'concept' feel is present.

I've had this long-time personal mantra that goes like this: "The point of a soundtrack album is not to retell the film musically, but to recommunicate its music musically". That's how I like them to be, anyway.

[Brónach 1,302]

I dunno. I listen to many scores without caring about the film itself. Which is why I want all the music on the CDs, in case I'm missing out something I might like.

I'm actually a bit on Thor's side, I just think film music should have a normalized, default presentation form understandable by everybody. Which takes me back to the other side, funnily enough.

[Datameister 2,044]

I still think the best way to break this down is film score fans vs. soundtrack fans. Some people are in it for the film score that the composer wrote, and some people are in it for the album that can be created from that film score. Equally valid preferences, and in a perfect world, both products would be made available for each score. Neither preference necessarily has anything to do with whether you've seen the film.

[Brónach 1,302]

in a perfect world, both would be made available for each score.

This.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I do not want every last note, its not important to me, I don't understand the obsessive need for it, but it's an individual choice.

the original Jaws soundtrack is perfection, those that followed not so much, but I like parts, It is good to have father and son. but there is no better rendition of the Jaws theme than on the original Jaws album.

[Brónach 1,302]

Well it depends on the score.

[Wojo 2,453]

If the music as presented in the film is significantly edited by means of loops, dial-outs, and five second snippets repeated all over the place, there's no way I want that presentation on album. At the same time, if you can assemble every bit of music into a logical, pleasant listening experience, please put that on album.

I can listen to a complete extended soundtrack release and consider it to be as enjoyable a listening experience as one of those abridged albums created 40 years ago when the media formats held less.

[Jay 37,375]

Well it depends on the score.

THIS

[Delorean90 42]

Let me start by saying that this is arguably the most civil and constructive discussion on the different approaches to film music albums I've seen. Kudos, guys! And thanks to Elmo for starting the thread!

I tend more to desire the C & C releases, although there are exceptions. For instance, I am glad to have all of the music from Dutch, but in its C & C form, it could definitely benefit from some kind of resequencing. But I am glad to have it, especially since I greatly enjoy Silvestri's jazzy film music.

I'll address stuff that's been addressed as necessary, but there are two points that I haven't really seen here as I recall, that are part of the appeal for me. The first is that film music is unique in that its only publication is typically through the film and whatever CD release is made. If something is written and recorded for a film, but not used, then unless it makes a CD or concert appearance, no one knows it existed. This can result in rather significant portions of a given composer's ouevre being unknown to all but a select few people. Even in terms of music used in film, there have been major cues, sometimes cue representative of or important to a score and/or composer, that would not be able to be appreciated on its own very present merit. John Williams alone has a fair amount of unused music that I am very glad to know thanks to expanded editions.

In terms of my own listening enjoyment, something I sometimes find is that also I just like the atmosphere the composer has created, and even if some cues aren't as strong or vital as others, they are enjoyable enough that I like being able to sit in that for a little longer. Especially in cases where I am using whatever music is on as background music, that's valid for me. It's not the greatest critical point, but it is relevant in terms of my own personal enjoyment.

[Incanus 5,716]

Do the people who enjoy the soundtrack album more than full scores ever feel there is music in the film they would have liked to hear on the album? Is there a score where some heart rending or spirit uplifting piece of music has appeared and you absolutely would have wanted that on the CD? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and move on?

And do you find the context in any way important to the music or is it just "if it has a good flow then I do not care where it came from" ideology? Doesn't the context of say film add to your enjoyment of the music at all?

[Thor 7,526]

Do the people who enjoy the soundtrack album more than full scores ever feel there is music in the film they would have liked to hear on the album? Is there a score where some heart rending or spirit uplifting piece of music has appeared and you absolutely would have wanted that on the CD? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and move on?

I just shrug my shoulders and move on. There could be an unreleased Beethoven symphony in the film, and I wouldn't really care if it was omitted as long as the existing CD worked as it is. That being said, there have been a couple of times where someone has pointed out an unreleased cue to me, let's say "The Big Rescue" from SUPERMAN, and after having listened to it, I did indeed agree that it could have been pasted into the old Warner LP program without the overall flow losing some of its momentum. Just have to find the right spot for it.

But as a whole, the film and its narrative has no reference value whatsoever in my soundtrack listening.

And do you find the context in any way important to the music or is it just "if it has a good flow then I do not care where it came from" ideology? Doesn't the context of say film add to your enjoyment of the music at all?

Not for me, no.

I'm fascinated by how the music works in context with the film too, but that's part of my film interest and a whole other ballgame. I need to actually watch/analyze the film to trigger that interest.

[Romão 2,274]

Do the people who enjoy the soundtrack album more than full scores ever feel there is music in the film they would have liked to hear on the album? Is there a score where some heart rending or spirit uplifting piece of music has appeared and you absolutely would have wanted that on the CD? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and move on?

And do you find the context in any way important to the music or is it just "if it has a good flow then I do not care where it came from" ideology? Doesn't the context of say film add to your enjoyment of the music at all?

1- It happens all the time, but I tend to focus more on what's on the actual cd that on what's missing. That's why I might be one of the few who loves the TPM original album (although I also listend regularly to Trent's terrific complete edit)

2- No, not at all. I only care about the context and how it work whithin it when I am watching the movie

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Do the people who enjoy the soundtrack album more than full scores ever feel there is music in the film they would have liked to hear on the album? Is there a score where some heart rending or spirit uplifting piece of music has appeared and you absolutely would have wanted that on the CD? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and move on?

And do you find the context in any way important to the music or is it just "if it has a good flow then I do not care where it came from" ideology? Doesn't the context of say film add to your enjoyment of the music at all?

In cases where I prefer the OST to the expansion, yes, there's very often one or two unreleased cues that I've put in the appropriate places. The reason varies from it just being a cue that grabbed me, to "why is this major cue not on the album?".

This is why having sessions is so important. The composer or album producer can do a wonderful job forming a good listening experience - and I think Zimmer, Powell and JNH are very good at this in general - but it's so easy for them to leave off a good cue.

And don't forget that omitted cues can be for financial reasons as well. Maybe that magical missing cue breached the 45 min limit on a Varese disc. It's well known that Goldsmith himself wanted more music on the AF1 disc but they couldn't afford it. Truncated presentations don't always mean the composer wanted it to be heard that way - they're just making do with what they have.

To your second point, context is critical IMO, and this is where I think Thor is missing a trick by only viewing scores as concept albums.

I think it's especially important in cases where the score is playing 'above' the action, i.e. ambient music playing over a violent scene. On CD, it's just 'there', but once you understand the context, it takes on a new meaning.

[Ricard 2,245]

But as a whole, the film and its narrative has no reference value whatsoever in my soundtrack listening.

Same here. Most of the times, my enjoyment of a film score has NOTHING to do with the film.

However, all scores have their own narrative. And that can only be told in complete and chronological form.

All the rest are artificial manipulations which many people accept as if they were the word of God.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Only when they sound like the word of God. I don't think a lot of people can defend the Jurassic Park OST and its annoying reiterations.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I don't think a lot of people can defend the Jurassic Park OST and its annoying reiterations.

Thor can.

[Thor 7,526]

I think it's especially important in cases where the score is playing 'above' the action, i.e. ambient music playing over a violent scene. On CD, it's just 'there', but once you understand the context, it takes on a new meaning.

I disagree with that. It isn't "just there" on CD...it has its own set of associations and meanings and emotions, regardless of what it once accompanied. That's the power of instrumental music - you can put whatever you want into it. In fact, sometimes I've had a cue "ruined" from later hearing it in the film, but I've become so adept at disassociating tracks from their source by now, so I'm able to have two very different experiences of the same music -- one as film music, another as just music.

If I want to experience the context in which it was once created or otherwise anything to do with the movie, I'll put on the DVD!

[Brónach 1,302]

In fact, sometimes I've had a cue "ruined" from later hearing it in the film, but I've become so adept at disassociating tracks from their source by now, so I'm able to have two very different experiences of the same music -- one as film music, another as just music.

Hey this happens to me as well.

[Wojo 2,453]

There could be an unreleased Beethoven symphony in the film, and I wouldn't really care if it was omitted as long as the existing CD worked as it is.

So you're going to bring classical music into this? You could easily walk into any CD shop and find a condensed album of Beethoven's greatest hits where only the first movement of his Fifth and the final movement of his Ninth show up, and be perfectly happy with the "album presentation" of this music, never needing anything else.

You could also buy a multi-CD set that contains each of the Nine in their entirety.

If you considered classical music to be the stuff that concept albums are, you would stick with this greatest hits collection and never care about the complete symphonies. If, however, you were a big fan of Beethoven, you would push little old ladies over in the street* to get your hands on as many tracks of his music as possible. Or, quite simply, you might just collect as much different music as you can, and purchasing complete soundtracks is a means to that end.

I was introduced to Wagner's Ring cycle by a single CD that contained only some instrumental pieces. Flight of the Valkyrie, stuff like that. The C&C presentation would be about a dozen hours' worth of material to wade through.

To each their own.

* Two so far, and the good news is, they're not going to prosecute. Nyah.

If I want to experience the context in which it was once created or otherwise anything to do with the movie, I'll put on the DVD!

But that is not the context in which it was created. A finished soundtrack gets manhandled by editors on its way to the finished movie. Repeat this section, dial this one down so we hear the laser beams, loop this bit again three times, mute this piece, put in a nice jarring cut. Stuff like that. If I want to listen to a complete soundtrack, it's because I do not want to hear these edits. I want to hear music. I also don't want to hear additional explosions and dialogue behind me as I try to drown out the explosions and dialogue going on around me in the workplace or on the open road.

If I haven't seen the movie, then I just enjoy the soundtrack for what it is -- pleasant background music while I do other things. I don't ever sit and listen to music for the sake of it, I feel like I have too many other things to do or investments to enjoy. But if I have seen the movie, then listening to the soundtrack is a far more convenient way to encapsulate that experience without going through the hassle and time-wasting exercise of actually staring at a TV for three hours.

[Faleel 5,365]

Don't forget the unused music and alternates.

[OneBuckFilms 324]

You know, I think there is a lot to be said for both presentation styles.

There are many scores where the complete score is pretty much the best presentation, and some scores where I'm personally fine with the album presentation.

Star Trek III, for instance, is a score where the complete form is a really nice listening experience, but the album presentation is adequate but lacking.

Star Trek II, I love hearing the complete score, but find the album presentation is better.

Star Trek V is best in complete form, but there is one very short cue that could be left off and wouldn't be missed.

It really depends on the score as to which presentation works best, and everyone has different tastes.

In general though, I prefer a C & C presentation for the simple reason that many scores have themes and ideas that develop and evolve throughout the score.

I want to hear this, and enjoy this. A good score often has a natural flow to it, inherited somewhat from the movie it was written for, and many album presentations sacrifice this element. Star Wars is a perfect example of this, where the music almost literally tells the story.

Poltergeist is also great in complete form, but also makes for a great album, as the FSM release illustrates.

Any time this topic comes up, we end up at an impasse. The whole idea of one approach vs. the other, when in reality, they both complement each other.

LLLR's Star Trek V is the way I personally like to see scores with album arrangements released. Disc 1 gives me the complete score, while Disc 2 gives me the album arrangement made at the time.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Any time this topic comes up, we end up at an impasse. The whole idea of one approach vs. the other, when in reality, they both complement each other.

Exactly. I didn't create this thread to prove C&C fans how wrong they are, or to convince anyone of the virtues of abridged albums. I just wanted to hear what people had to say about this topic (I miss KM here, though). Very often we each get our assembled album and our C&C edition, so we're all winners here.

[Incanus 5,716]

Interesting answers to my question here. I agree that you certainly can experience film music as pure music as any other. But I am always interested in the story the music is telling, the story the music was created for. I can separate image and music and most often do not relive film through the music but I find that the context of the story gives the music as much subtext as the music gives to the images. Abstractions, characters, emotions, structure. In some instances the musical poignancy of a piece reveals itself more powerfully with knowledge of what the music is depicting, the musico-dramatic linkage indelible. Sure you can hear this in the piece itself without dramatic link but not every piece of music is so clearly defined or emotionally direct.

And then there are films so awful I disassociate the music from the images entirely preferring to create my own musical narrative in the place of the actual one.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Very often we each get our assembled album and our C&C edition, so we're all winners here.

Unfortunately, that's not true. We get more assembled albums than C&C editions. And that's why we don't see people like you and Thor moaning and bitching from one thread to another, while most of us do. That's a harsh life, the life of a completist. Never satisfied, never happy. A terrible, infinite wasteland... and when, finally, a C&C edition pops up, it's like a tree appearing in this wasteland.... But, soon enough, the tree is dead, and we're looking for another one...

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Wow. It looks quite the opposite from this side.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Are you joking? Every god damn film has an assembled album, but not every god damn film has a C&C edition.

Or were you talking about something else?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Nono. Every major release nowadays seems to either have a complete release a few months/years down the line, or a convenient leak of recording sessions or an army of diligent fans willing to create a longer version with videogame and DVD rips.

This, of course, is just perception. If you are generally satisfied with an original release, you don't count the days until you get more music on your hands and don't notice how many scores are left un-expanded.

If I were to complain about something, it's that we don't get enough suites, or thought-out assemblies of excessively long OSTs.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Nono. Every major release nowadays seems to either have a complete release a few months/years down the line, or a convenient leak of recording sessions

I wish that was true. Well, at least for my holy grails... But I don't think mine will ever be released...

I agree with you on suites, though. There are a lot of scores that offer great themes, yet these are never fully developped, and I wish they took some time to record suites and offered them on assembled albums, the Williams way.

[Thor 7,526]

So you're going to bring classical music into this? You could easily walk into any CD shop and find a condensed album of Beethoven's greatest hits where only the first movement of his Fifth and the final movement of his Ninth show up, and be perfectly happy with the "album presentation" of this music, never needing anything else.

That was not my point, though. My point was that no matter how great the missing music may be (I thought an unreleased Beethoven symphony, had one existed, would be such a thing), I really don't care. The ONLY thing that matters is how the existing album that I hold in my hands works. Sometimes (quite often, in fact), I'm blissfully unaware of missing music in the first place and even more often I don't really care. I don't use the film and the music within as a point-of-reference for my enjoyment.

If I haven't seen the movie, then I just enjoy the soundtrack for what it is -- pleasant background music while I do other things. I don't ever sit and listen to music for the sake of it, I feel like I have too many other things to do or investments to enjoy. But if I have seen the movie, then listening to the soundtrack is a far more convenient way to encapsulate that experience without going through the hassle and time-wasting exercise of actually staring at a TV for three hours.

Well, that just goes to show that we are very different in the way we listen to soundtracks and music in general. Your way is completely alien to me.

Unfortunately, that's not true. We get more assembled albums than C&C editions. And that's why we don't see people like you and Thor moaning and bitching from one thread to another, while most of us do. That's a harsh life, the life of a completist. Never satisfied, never happy. A terrible, infinite wasteland... and when, finally, a C&C edition pops up, it's like a tree appearing in this wasteland.... But, soon enough, the tree is dead, and we're looking for another one...

That's interesting you say that, because I have the complete opposite experience. While it is (thankfully) true that most mainstream, new soundtrack releases from the major labels are A&A, almost every single niche label out there prefers C&C. EVERY SINGLE ONE! So many scores get their premiere release in that format. The A&A presentations are extremely rare in niche land, usually reserved for reissues of old LP programs. Or when they've kept the original program in addition to the C&C on some releases. It's definitely a source of constant frustration for me, especially if it's a score I have a connection to somehow.

[Datameister 2,044]

That particular disagreement seems to be easily resolved by noting that right now, most new releases of new scores are abridged and most new releases of old scores are complete.

[Faleel 5,365]

what does A and A mean!?

[Datameister 2,044]

Abridged and achronological, perhaps? (Wiktionary tells me the latter is indeed a word...)

[Jacob 0]

I've seen Thor use it for abridged and arranged.

[Thor 7,526]

I've seen Thor use it for abridged and arranged.

Yes. Or 'abbreviated and arranged'. But 'abridged' is probably better.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Neutered is a better term

[Richard Penna 3,696]

That's interesting you say that, because I have the complete opposite experience. While it is (thankfully) true that most mainstream, new soundtrack releases from the major labels are A&A, almost every single niche label out there prefers C&C. EVERY SINGLE ONE! So many scores get their premiere release in that format. The A&A presentations are extremely rare in niche land, usually reserved for reissues of old LP programs. Or when they've kept the original program in addition to the C&C on some releases. It's definitely a source of constant frustration for me, especially if it's a score I have a connection to somehow.

I'd argue that the frustration encountered by C&C hunters is worse than yours. I find that carving my own listening experience from sessions (which I do with maybe half the recording sessions I come across) is actually fairly easy, for the precise reason you hate them.

If a cue doesn't separate well from the film for me - maybe it's too mickey mousey, too action-specific, or for cinematic reasons needs to be different to the rest of the score, I'll probably dump it. Whereas those cues that connect better as music are kept.

Compare that to having a 45 min edited OST, full of alternates, unused music and out of film order, and not having the recording sessions available. Ignoring DVD/VG rips for this argument, there's nothing that C&C advocate can do in this situation except curse at the missing music.

I'm aware that one of your primary arguments is that arranging an album is a record producer's job - well it looks like we both have our battles

What complicates this is that I love a lot of Zimmer's OSTs, because he does a wonderful job making suites by joining cues together - exactly what you want. But at the same time, there are moments where I wish he hadn't shortened a particular bit, or made that edit - in other words I admire what he did to the score to make it work away from the picture, but still think there's room to expand it within that presentation style.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

That's interesting you say that, because I have the complete opposite experience. While it is (thankfully) true that most mainstream, new soundtrack releases from the major labels are A&A, almost every single niche label out there prefers C&C. EVERY SINGLE ONE! So many scores get their premiere release in that format. The A&A presentations are extremely rare in niche land, usually reserved for reissues of old LP programs. Or when they've kept the original program in addition to the C&C on some releases. It's definitely a source of constant frustration for me, especially if it's a score I have a connection to somehow.

I'd argue that the frustration encountered by C&C hunters is worse than yours.

I can see that. As mentioned before, you guys have access to the music you are missing.

We can only speculate what an apt producer might do with a soundtrack we find too long.

[Thor 7,526]

I think my kind of frustration is just a bad, if not worse. Just seeing one score after the other being released without any thought whatsoever being channelled into the music listening aspect of it (esp. from the niche labels), it's one of the main reasons why I've started to fade away from soundtrack acquisition altogether. But of course, I also understand your frustration. There's a compromise solution in having a release that has BOTH - first the album program created by the composer or record producer, then the extra tracks as bonus. It happens once in a while, but I'm not sure how economically feasible it is. So we have to make a choice. And you know what my choice would be.

[Brónach 1,302]

Not listening to film music?

I can see that. As mentioned before, you guys have access to the music you are missing.

I don't.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

You don't see the movie and notice the unreleased music?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

. Just seeing one score after the other being released without any thought whatsoever being channelled into the music listening aspect of it (esp. from the niche labels),

I think if you would talk to people like Kendall, Fake, Mattesino etc, they would say they put a great deal of thought into it.

The thing is, as you know very well, the majority of customers from these niche labels demand the complete score. So why would they go against those paying them the money to continue to exist?

[Brónach 1,302]

You don't see the movie and notice the unreleased music?

I only see the film if I'm interested in it.

Also, that there's unreleased music in a film means I don't have access to it. As we have already explained, you can't tell somebody who likes music to listen to rips with bad sound quality and edited for the film and be happy with that.

There's also the unused music, the alternates, the concert pieces.... The unused music is part of the bulk of the score. The alternates and concert pieces can make for a cool alternate score (Hook) ! Unless the cocnert pieces aren't independent and make for their own suite (like the Children's Suite from Harry Potter).

[Thor 7,526]

. Just seeing one score after the other being released without any thought whatsoever being channelled into the music listening aspect of it (esp. from the niche labels),

I think if you would talk to people like Kendall, Fake, Mattesino etc, they would say they put a great deal of thought into it.

The thing is, as you know very well, the majority of customers from these niche labels demand the complete score. So why would they go against those paying them the money to continue to exist?

True, supply and demand and all that. But it would be nice if they -- at least once in a while -- made an album for people like me. We're actually a considerable bunch, although perhaps not as dominant as the C&C enthusiasts. I know that Doug at Intrada actually shares some of my ideology on this. It would be cool if he had the guts to present an album according to his taste once in a while. That would underscore the importance of the underrated ART aspect of record production.

[Brónach 1,302]

You never tried to be an artist of something yourself?

By the way, I still don't understand why was Star Wars too much.

[Thor 7,526]

You never tried to be an artist of something yourself?

Sure, I have certain skills in drawing/painting and writing fiction, but they sadly weren't nurtured as much as I wish they had been. So I can't call myself an artist. And certainly not as record producer! I'm a skilled listener, though.

[Brónach 1,302]

You never tried to be an artist of something yourself?

Sure, I have certain skills in drawing/painting and writing fiction, which sadly wasn't nurtured as much as I wish they had been. But certainly not as record producer, nor are most of us! I'm a skilled listener, though.

Well I see it as creating a program for a concert. I enjoy thinking about it.

If you don't want to do it yourself and you want to keep listening to film music you can ask people here to do it for you. Hell I would like to do it. And don't worry, we wouldn't endorse you a disguised C&C!

[Thor 7,526]

You never tried to be an artist of something yourself?

Sure, I have certain skills in drawing/painting and writing fiction, which sadly wasn't nurtured as much as I wish they had been. But certainly not as record producer, nor are most of us! I'm a skilled listener, though.

Well I see it as creating a program for a concert. I enjoy thinking about it.

If you don't want to do it yourself and you want to keep listening to film music you can ask people here to do it for you. Hell I would. And don't worry, we wouldn't endorse you a disguised C&C!

Thanks, but unless there are composers or record producers posting here under a pseudonym, I'd prefer to let the professionals do it!

[Brónach 1,302]

You don't have to be a proffesional to be an artist!

[Thor 7,526]

Artists/composers are usually professionals...at least they try to make a living of what they do, even though some have to have extra jobs if times are rough. Not all record producers are composers, of course, but they have the experience on their side as a good substitute.

[Brónach 1,302]

I say, if you have listening skills, you're able to distinguish between what you like and what you don't like, and you're able to assemble a short program that people might enjoy.

I do it all the time, you don't come here to tell me I can't do it as well as others!

And with scores that have concert pieces is like the composer is telling what to put in an abridged album.