The endless yearn (aka why do you want all of a film's music?)

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I am not a completist. I am happier with a concise, two-dimensional performance of a score, like the Jaws or E.T. original releases, than with the whole package. In fact, I have purchased several complete and chronological editions of scores I love only to be utterly bored by them and pining for an edition that would separate the wheat from the chaff.

It is a trait that has long separated me from a lot of posters here. It doesn't mean I don't understand them. We needed the complete Star Wars releases. We needed Superman. We needed Independence Day. We still need Hook. These epic scores were larger than the releases they got. Their musical narrative was too tight, too cohesive, to successfully exist in any abridged form.

But then, there have been fantastic original releases that superseded the missing music. Michael Giacchino's Star Trek, Jerry Goldsmith's Alien, just to name two. We have also had expanded releases of smaller scores where the narrative was so abstract, they could only benefit from a cohesive trimming. Like you, I have bought them. Unlike you, I have done away with them after a dozen of listens and stuck to the original album. It's a more frugal taste, but it is more satisfying than going through thematic repetitions without development and tracks that were written to accompany the images without much going on musically.

But, being a curious mind, I want to listen and learn. What is it that draws you to these releases? Do you really miss all the music that was cut from the album? Do you just prefer the musical re-telling of a movie, scene by scene? Or do you find a pleasure I'm missing in those atmospheric tracks? Is it that you can't get enough iterations of those brassy, bombastic themes?

In other words, if a film's main themes are the foundations of a musical experience, why would you want the musical narrative to stop so you can hear them a few more times than it is strictly necessary to trace their development all the way to the end?

I once read that not a note was wasted on the expanded release of James Horner's Wrath of Khan. I beg to differ. I find the original album to have a more fluid musical narrative of the film's emotional arc. I don't need Surprise on Ceti Alpha V or Khan's Pets to get to the finale. Those tracks sound to my ears like a composer doing his job of adding atmosphere without distracting from the images (a lot of the prequel scores have music like this). Just dissonant chords that, without the scenes they were meant to improve, become devoid of musical and narrative meaning.

So I have decided to use the first one as an example that embodies my point -- what do you see in it? You don't need to answer the poll do give your opinion. I'm really curious about such an insatiable thirst for completion.

[Faleel 5,362]

I believe suprise on Ceti Alpha V has Khans Theme in it... or is that Khan's Pets? anyways, Option 5

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Tom. Many people do not realize that wanting a thing is not the same as having that thing.

[Brónach 1,302]

These athmospheric cues are cool and provide variety to the score.

You could say it's part of the music like any other cue.

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm lucky I suppose: long gone are the times when a cue I wanted wasn't on the ost. Nowadays I just yearn for a decent score worth owning at all.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I believe suprise on Ceti Alpha V has Khans Theme in it... or is that Khan's Pets? anyways, Option 5

But is their introduction of a motif enough to warrant the time we spend listening to them?

Tom. Many people do not realize that wanting a thing is not the same as having that thing.

You were the author of the "not a note is wasted" quote. Perhaps you could enlighten me further?

These athmospheric cues are cool and provide variety to the score.

You could say it's part of the music like any other cue.

So variety for variety's sake? I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

[fommes 153]

Like with everything in life (that some people want to make a general theoretical model of that applies to everything), it depends on a case by case basis.

Some scores work better as albums. Because of the nature of much underscore, this is the larger part of the film scores.

Some scores work better when all of the music is released.

All of this is musically speaking. The film for me is just a reference point where I might hear interesting music that is not on the CD. I would like to hear that separately from the film then - not to re-experience any film narrative, but for the music solely.

Very concretely:

- although I never do this because it takes too much time, there is very often something great missing from the composer's OST. I often feel I could have made a better selection of highlights, so it would be great to have a complete version. I would be a very big proponent of composers releasing an album, with the rest as bonus tracks or as bonus downloads somewhere (like with Casino Royale. Just don't use iTunes only). I still wonder why this isn't done on a standard basis.

- with a few very select composers (3 or 4), I like their music so much that I feel like they practically never write underscore that is only functional in the film and doesn't work as a standalone CD track. In their case, I do want as much music as possible. I think this is pretty normal, liking something and wanting more of it.

As to your poll, I selected the skipping option - even if I haven't put the CD in in the meantime to see what you're talking about. But from your description it sounds like something that could have been left off. This is practically the ideal situation though, having an shorter album and a complete release. I listen to CDs entirely - I never skip (unless it's a pop song or source cue that doesn't belong anywhere in the main programme - Basic Instinct Expanded comes to mind), so I don't mind if there's a shorter cue somewhere that doesn't do much. They often work as breathers between the heavier material, too.

[Henry B 50]

For me the determination is always individual. I don't particularly care for "Surprise on Ceti Alpha V," but "Spock (Dies)" is heartbreaking. Sometimes you just have to mix and match.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You were the author of the "not a note is wasted" quote. Perhaps you could enlighten me further?

That refers to Raiders, or Jaws, and only in the context of the score as composed for the film.

[Thor 7,521]

I don't.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

You were the author of the "not a note is wasted" quote. Perhaps you could enlighten me further?

That refers to Raiders, or Jaws, and only in the context of the score as used in the film.

I distinctly recall you writing that about the FSM release. To be fair, I haven't checked, and it sounds like something that belonged to the moment. I'm just using it to make a point. I just wondered if you had anything to say in defense of those tracks.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The FSM release of TWOK?

I can't recall that. It actually is a very busy, dense score.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Most generalised answer I can give to any cue is that it's part of the film's narrative, and I want what I listen to to reflect that.

I have a 10 second cue from American Psycho which isn't much more than three very tense string chords. But it works so well in the scene it scores that even at only a few seconds, it's dramatically meaningful away from the film.

[indy4 155]

I want complete scores if there is unreleased music that I would like to hear apart from the film. I wouldn't have purchased Star Trek if the only music that the OST didn't contain was "Surprise on Ceti Alpha."

The only exception is John Williams - at some point I want to own every officially released CD of his. For some scores, like Not With My Wife You Don't, I won't be hoping for an expansion, but if it comes I will feel obligated to eventually purchase it.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Option #2.

A complete score, more specifically a GOOD compelte score, is like a musical journey where you can tell the story. Every cue helps. This is no exception. In fact, it works rather well if you shove it one track down, so it's a prelude to track four.

If I had done the CD, I might have moved it. Sometimes labels do that, a perfect example is Varese and "The Great Escape".

I, for one, have moved around the tracks to "Baby: Secret of the Lost Legned" to tell an emotional film story.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

For me, I want the whole story that the composer is trying to tell. That doesn't necessarily mean I want to relive the film, but in some cases that's true.

[Jay 37,374]

If everything the composer recorded can be found and fits then it should be included. I don't mind if they assemble a main "listening experience" and group shorter or "unimportant" cues as a bonus track section, as long as they're included

[Incanus 5,716]

This is an interesting question which has puzzled even myself at times in my own music collecting. I do love to hear some scores in their full form from start to finish with not a note missing and with others I am perfectly happy with their respective soundtrack album releases. It is all about the individual perspective. I think soundtracks draw me to them because of their musical story telling element which can be quite different from score to score and composer to composer. Perhaps because the music is inherently so dramatic and continues the orchestral tradition so beautifully and keeps it alive. And it is not necessarily the story of the film that I want to relive through them but the emotional and atmospheric journey is what interests me, whatever the intangible element that makes your soul soar when you hear good music that grabs you.

Sometimes you can't easily separate the subject matter and context from scores like Indiana Jones or Psycho but some scores offer much freer association. This again has to do with your relationship with all these individual films. Do you like the film or the score? Do you think the music is enormously effective in the film but on its own weak. Are you ambivalent towards the film or have not even seen it but the score touches you? The audio-visual coupling, the context dependancy of the music, meaning it is magic when on screen with images and dialogue but rather weak on its own, affects my interest in the music as well. Does the score allow you a wonderful musical experience on the OST and you never think to ask for more since it tells its own story so well or do you always have the nagging there is something missing, the journey incomplete. Does the score touch you emotionally or stimulate intellectually or both?

It is an interesting conincidence that in the past couple of weeks with the Tintin and War Horse craze I have been thinking about this same question as all kinds of opinion have risen about the soundtrack album of the former score. Some people are already predicting an awful release and some are just excited and happy about the 65 minute CD that is coming. And here is where film music fanatic aspect comes into play that really diffrentiates us from many other fans of different other types of music. Most of the time we have a foreknowledge that something is missing. In other words to some of us the glass is half empty all the time. A CD holds a certain amount of music chosen by the composer. It is his/her choice, perception of what constitutes a satisfying listening experience artistically in the limits of their budget etc. for the CD release. This is their pick which does not always conincide with desires of the people who listen to their music or who are ardent fans who do not make a difference between an album and a score. Fans will go to the movies, see the film, hear the music and inevitably note what is missing from the album. And here is the difference between fans' perceptions. Some think "well there is some music missing but I love the album, I don't care" and the other "Oh man there is/are that beautiful/powerful/heart breaking/fantastic cue(s) that was/were not on the CD and I would have loved to hear them there". It all about how you perceive the music.

People who are fans of anything from pop to heavy to classical wait for their favourite artists/band's/composer's new album and then buy it after it has been released, listen to it and be content or disappointed by the music but they usually do not go about thinking there is something missing. They do not have a context for it, no knowledge of the great "what might have been" of recording studios, music left off the album etc. Film music fan is nearly always aware of this "missing element", it is just whether he/she can live with it and let it go is another matter.

I would argue that some film scores do stand on their own and are so inherently dramatic and infused with so powerful story arc they can handle a complete release. The music carries its narrative from start to finish. And yet again it is all about individual tastes. Some people love Terminator 2 to bits and would love a complete release and others can't stand the mechanical sounds and can't stomach even the 45 minute original album. But on the other hand you can argue, without any comparison of respective quality which is individual perception in the first place, that why not release complete scores since you do not release only a parts of the operas or ballets either (not counting suites here) or part of a heavy or pop album.

In the end it is about the appreciation of the music and how do you think about it. Are you a listening experience person who takes the OST album and listens to it completely happy or are you the complete musical journey person who wants the music not just to get more music but because you honestly believe that the extra music will make for a more beautiful and powerful and coherent musical story and that some of the most important music for you is missing from the initial album. And actually you can be both at the same time for different scores. I know I am.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Most of my absolute favorite scores are to films I've never seen, and have no intention of seeing.

[filmmusic 1,843]

I will reply by this:

A film's music is a whole. Not random cues here and there. All music cues make one whole that has a beginning, a middle and an end.

At least this is how it used to be and how it is done by the great masters.

The themes are presented, varied, developed, reprised etc..

Now, imagine having in a cd Beethoven's 9th symphony but with a movement, or part of a movement, or some bars here and there missing..

[Faleel 5,362]

Or having the ending come earlier, or having movment 3 before movement 2.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This is an interesting question which has puzzled even myself at times in my own music collecting. I do love to hear some scores in their full form from start to finish with not a note missing and with others I am perfectly happy with their respective soundtrack album releases. It is all about the individual perspective. I think soundtracks draw me to them because of their musical story telling element which can be quite different from score to score and composer to composer. Perhaps because the music is inherently so dramatic and continues the orchestral tradition so beautifully and keeps it alive. And it is not necessarily the story of the film that I want to relive through them but the emotional and atmospheric journey is what interests me, whatever the intangible element that makes your soul soar when you hear good music that grabs you.

Sometimes you can't easily separate the subject matter and context from scores like Indiana Jones or Psycho but some scores offer much freer association. This again has to do with your relationship with all these individual films. Do you like the film or the score? Do you think the music is enormously effective in the film but on its own weak. Are you ambivalent towards the film or have not even seen it but the score touches you? The audio-visual coupling, the context dependancy of the music, meaning it is magic when on screen with images and dialogue but rather weak on its own, affects my interest in the music as well. Does the score allow you a wonderful musical experience on the OST and you never think to ask for more since it tells its own story so well or do you always have the nagging there is something missing, the journey incomplete. Does the score touch you emotionally or stimulate intellectually or both?

It is an interesting conincidence that in the past couple of weeks with the Tintin and War Horse craze I have been thinking about this same question as all kinds of opinion have risen about the soundtrack album of the former score. Some people are already predicting an awful release and some are just excited and happy about the 65 minute CD that is coming. And here is where film music fanatic aspect comes into play that really diffrentiates us from many other fans of different other types of music. Most of the time we have a foreknowledge that something is missing. In other words to some of us the glass is half empty all the time. A CD holds a certain amount of music chosen by the composer. It is his/her choice, perception of what constitutes a satisfying listening experience artistically in the limits of their budget etc. for the CD release. This is their pick which does not always conincide with desires of the people who listen to their music or who are ardent fans who do not make a difference between an album and a score. Fans will go to the movies, see the film, hear the music and inevitably note what is missing from the album. And here is the difference between fans' perceptions. Some think "well there is some music missing but I love the album, I don't care" and the other "Oh man there is/are that beautiful/powerful/heart breaking/fantastic cue(s) that was/were not on the CD and I would have loved to hear them there". It all about how you perceive the music.

People who are fans of anything from pop to heavy to classical wait for their favourite artists/band's/composer's new album and then buy it after it has been released, listen to it and be content or disappointed by the music but they usually do not go about thinking there is something missing. They do not have a context for it, no knowledge of the great "what might have been" of recording studios, music left off the album etc. Film music fan is nearly always aware of this "missing element", it is just whether he/she can live with it and let it go is another matter.

I would argue that some film scores do stand on their own and are so inherently dramatic and infused with so powerful story arc they can handle a complete release. The music carries its narrative from start to finish. And yet again it is all about individual tastes. Some people love Terminator 2 to bits and would love a complete release and others can't stand the mechanical sounds and can't stomach even the 45 minute original album. But on the other hand you can argue, without any comparison of respective quality which is individual perception in the first place, that why not release complete scores since you do not release only a parts of the operas or ballets either (not counting suites here) or part of a heavy or pop album.

In the end it is about the appreciation of the music and how do you think about it. Are you a listening experience person who takes the OST album and listens to it completely happy or are you the complete musical journey person who wants the music not just to get more music but because you honestly believe that the extra music will make for a more beautiful and powerful and coherent musical story and that some of the most important music for you is missing from the initial album. And actually you can be both at the same time for different scores. I know I am.

Ditto.

[Melange 446]

I approach this on a score by score basis.

Occasionally I hear a score where a fabulous piece of music was left off the released soundtrack and its ommision seems almost criminal to me, so a mild hunt (or more accurately, keeping an eye out) is then on to obtain that piece of music if possible, if it is around in some form. I don't have that often though.

I would say the officially released expanded scores or bootlegs I've leapt at have probably been scores which were around when I was a teenager, were loved for years for whatever material was released for us originally, and I've had to wait many years for that piece of music that wasn't included, to be released. Missing bits tended to surface in the form of bootlegs as the internet grew, even if the quality may not have been superb. It seems to me that score releases these days are including more of the film's score than they used to, and if not then a 'deluxe' edition will probably be on the cards due to how popular scores are now.

As I say, most of us had to wait decades to have those pieces of music that weren't included on the original release, so we got used to great patience or appreciating what we 'did' have on the official release. Getting obsessive about a 5 second piece of material that is missing, is just that....obsessive. It's just another expression of that delay tactic - "I'll only be happy or feel completed when..." that we in the western world do so well, and this has also been manipulated by some companys who deliberately release a sparse soundtrack or movie with the 'deluxe' edition waiting in the wings for future release so they can make a double scalping.

I would add that sometimes I listen to the original shorter release of soundtracks more than the 'complete' ones, too. It's nice to have a secondary soundtrack for 'specific' material we want to hear, but listening experience does have validity. For example, the MCA release of E.T is a far more enjoyable a listen to the more complete ones, which are very long for a listening. I can easily think of exceptions though. Star Trek Motion Picture. The anniversary release is a great listen because some great bits of material were left off the original release, and the re-included material is not so much that is turns a listening experience into an epic.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I don't.

I didn't see that one coming!

Mainly Option 1 & 4.

Option 1: A lot of scores I love are from movies I love, and the reason I love those scores is because the music is good (obviously), but also because they remind me of those films. Take a cue away, and you're destroying the narrative. When listening to the music, all I can think of is: "In the previous cue, Johnny was captured, and now in this cue he's well and alive? What the fuck? When did they rescue him?" (and that's only if we're lucky to have the soundtrack in chronological order! Don't get me started on out-of-order cues!)

Option 4: Yeah, I agree with people saying it is a case by case basis. For some scores, I want every damn cue that was written for the film, for others I can live with just the ones I really like. But the thing is, album producers don't know what cues I like the most, they don't know me. How in the name of fuck could they make a better listening experience than the one I'd do if I had the recording sessions? Obviously, they can't. So the reason I also want complete scores is that it gives me the possibility to create my own listening experience, and make a CD with which I won't skip a damn track. And it's also nice to know you have every cue, if you end up liking one more and more as time goes by, even if you didn't like it in the first place.

[Thor 7,521]

I don't.

I didn't see that one coming!

I do sometimes wonder, though, if there is ANYONE here who shares my preference, i.e. a FULL-OUT preference of the A&A (arranged and abbreviated), with a C&C only being OK very rarely, like once in a blue moon. I doubt it.

[Brónach 1,302]

People usually have a longer attention span

[filmmusic 1,843]

Or having the ending come earlier, or having movment 3 before movement 2.

Exactly!

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Option 4: Yeah, I agree with people saying it is a case by case basis. For some scores, I want every damn cue that was written for the film, for others I can live with just the ones I really like. But the thing is, album producers don't know what cues I like the most, they don't know me. How in the name of fuck could they make a better listening experience than the one I'd do if I had the recording sessions? Obviously, they can't. So the reason I also want complete scores is that it gives me the possibility to create my own listening experience, and make a CD with which I won't skip a damn track. And it's also nice to know you have every cue, if you end up liking one more and more as time goes by, even if you didn't like it in the first place.

+1

I'm aware of Thor's argument that it's the album producer's job to make a listening experience, but the producer doesn't know you; isn't aware that the source cue they put in the middle of the album irritates the hell out of you, or that the dissonant cue they left out is actually rather interesting to you.

Hence I don't agree at all that album producers have a skill at making albums that we mortals don't. Aside from being able to edit (and many around here are competent editors) and needing to know the score well, I don't see what other tangible skills are needed. Put related sections of score together, make sure nothing sticks out like a sore thumb, and try to include all of the highlights = good album.

I don't.

I didn't see that one coming!

I do sometimes wonder, though, if there is ANYONE here who shares my preference, i.e. a FULL-OUT preference of the A&A (arranged and abbreviated), with a C&C only being OK very rarely, like once in a blue moon. I doubt it.

I think we're all a bit like you, but you take it to the extreme. I've rejected loads of sessions lately for either an abbreviated set, or just gone back to the OST - Powell's X3, Zimmer's King Arthur to name two recent ones.

Also, you're the only one who makes a point of separating the picture from the music - that's a major factor in wanting more music. No picture means there's no context for that 30 second stinger.

[publicist 4,643]

Also, you're the only one who makes a point of separating the picture from the music - that's a major factor in wanting more music. No picture means there's no context for that 30 second stinger.

In a grander scheme of things, it's hard to justify that someone never will discover the musical legacy of the last centuries only because he/she spends months arranging the perfect listening experience out of the SPEED 2 recording sessions.

I know that borders on polemic, but that's what i often think when people labor over complete dvd rips of KOTCS or whatever. I find it commendable that someone is so inspired to dig dep into this kind if stuff, but having heard some of the results, i'm left headscratching what exactly this acomplishes.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I do sometimes wonder, though, if there is ANYONE here who shares my preference, i.e. a FULL-OUT preference of the A&A (arranged and abbreviated), with a C&C only being OK very rarely, like once in a blue moon. I doubt it.

Hey, I thought my original post showed that I am one of those. The missing cues don't frustrate me at all when the music we do have is engaging and representative of the whole work.

Option 1: A lot of scores I love are from movies I love, and the reason I love those scores is because the music is good (obviously), but also because they remind me of those films. Take a cue away, and you're destroying the narrative. When listening to the music, all I can think of is: "In the previous cue, Johnny was captured, and now in this cue he's well and alive? What the fuck? When did they rescue him?" (and that's only if we're lucky to have the soundtrack in chronological order! Don't get me started on out-of-order cues!)

I can see that. But that logic is meta-musical -- there are no characters in a film score. Just themes that pop in and out and, with any luck, get some development in the process. How can "Night Search" bother you in the original Jaws album when, despite belonging to a previous, more slowly-paced section of the film, it forms such a perfect build-up to "The Underwater Siege"?

Option 4: Yeah, I agree with people saying it is a case by case basis. For some scores, I want every damn cue that was written for the film, for others I can live with just the ones I really like. But the thing is, album producers don't know what cues I like the most, they don't know me. How in the name of fuck could they make a better listening experience than the one I'd do if I had the recording sessions? Obviously, they can't. So the reason I also want complete scores is that it gives me the possibility to create my own listening experience, and make a CD with which I won't skip a damn track. And it's also nice to know you have every cue, if you end up liking one more and more as time goes by, even if you didn't like it in the first place.

Again, I can see that. A lot of releases suffer from a poor assembly. But I know there is no way in hell I could have come up with magnificent albums like (sorry for being repetitive) Jaws or E.T. or The Fury or Alien with all that material. Those are tone poems. They don't follow the film's story beat by beat -- rather, they immerse you into its world, show you how far they can go and then see you off with a perfectly satisfying finale.

[Brónach 1,302]

I like playing around with Beethoven's symphonies because there are parts I don't like. Of course there are no movements missing.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Option 1: A lot of scores I love are from movies I love, and the reason I love those scores is because the music is good (obviously), but also because they remind me of those films. Take a cue away, and you're destroying the narrative. When listening to the music, all I can think of is: "In the previous cue, Johnny was captured, and now in this cue he's well and alive? What the fuck? When did they rescue him?" (and that's only if we're lucky to have the soundtrack in chronological order! Don't get me started on out-of-order cues!)

I can see that. But that logic is meta-musical -- there are no characters in a film score. Just themes that pop in and out and, with any luck, get some development in the process. How can "Night Search" bother you in the original Jaws album when, despite belonging to a previous, more slowly-paced section of the film, it forms such a perfect build-up to "The Underwater Siege"?

I disagree with you when you say there are no characters in a film score. The themes ARE the characters. And when there is a theme appearing in a bold fashion in a cue that has been placed randomly at the beginning of the OST, and I've never been introduced to that theme before, I'm thinking: "What the fuck?" (yeah, I know, I uses that expression a lot). Themes, like characters, should have an introduction, a developement, and a conclusion. When themes are offered to us that way, I think it makes for a far more satisfying listening experience than when the theme just pops out here and there for no apparent reason.

However, I'd like to precise that, even if I am a pro-C&C, I am more of a completist than I am a "chronological-ist". Having an OST with cues out-of-order doesn't bother me as much as missing the best cues from the complete score. I agree with you that sometimes, putting cues in a different order can result into something great. But the thing is, most of the time, I feel like album producers do a shitty job, and you have "build-up cues" that are followed by quiet cues. That breaks the listening experience and the narrative of the music (even without thinking about the film they are related to). When you have a "build-up cue", it should be followed by a big action cue, not some random underscore cue.

Option 4: Yeah, I agree with people saying it is a case by case basis. For some scores, I want every damn cue that was written for the film, for others I can live with just the ones I really like. But the thing is, album producers don't know what cues I like the most, they don't know me. How in the name of fuck could they make a better listening experience than the one I'd do if I had the recording sessions? Obviously, they can't. So the reason I also want complete scores is that it gives me the possibility to create my own listening experience, and make a CD with which I won't skip a damn track. And it's also nice to know you have every cue, if you end up liking one more and more as time goes by, even if you didn't like it in the first place.

Again, I can see that. A lot of releases suffer from a poor assembly. But I know there is no way in hell I could have come up with magnificent albums like (sorry for being repetitive) Jaws or E.T. or The Fury or Alien with all that material. Those are tone poems. They don't follow the film's story beat by beat -- rather, they immerse you into its world, show you how far they can go and then see you off with a perfectly satisfying finale.

You shouldn't be saying "There is no way in hell I could have come up with magnificent albums like..." Have you even tried? Album producers are no gods. I'm sure anyone with a bit of editing skills could make listening experience they'll enjoy far more than the album producers one, if they dared try. Even Thor. I'm sure if one day, he decided to try making his own OST from recording sessions of a film, he'll realize he can make great listening experiences, better listening experiences than what he's given by album producers. But he chose not to. That's why he can't go back to Asgard.

[Thor 7,521]

I'm aware of Thor's argument that it's the album producer's job to make a listening experience, but the producer doesn't know you; isn't aware that the source cue they put in the middle of the album irritates the hell out of you, or that the dissonant cue they left out is actually rather interesting to you.

Hence I don't agree at all that album producers have a skill at making albums that we mortals don't. Aside from being able to edit (and many around here are competent editors) and needing to know the score well, I don't see what other tangible skills are needed. Put related sections of score together, make sure nothing sticks out like a sore thumb, and try to include all of the highlights = good album.

That isn't really my argument, though, just for clarification. Putting together a personal highlights playlist does not an album make! There are all kinds of different things going into it in addition to picking out the worthwhile tracks - creating an overall album dramaturgy, binding tracks together that mesh well musically, creating an ebb and flow of upbeat and downbeat tracks, sometimes perhaps fading tracks in and out and overlapping them and so on and so on, to make for maximum fluid listening. These were the considerations that concept album producers had in mind when they put together the classic prog rock albums in the 70's and beyond, and to suggest to them that anyone could have put it together just as well if they had access to all the material would be somewhat of an offense, I think. Album production has been -- and will forever be -- an artform onto itself.

If having the choice between fooling around with my amateur skills to create something coherent out of something I shouldn't really have to or having a professional record producer or the composer HIMSELF create their artistic vision for me, the choice is fairly simple.

I have to reiterate again that art isn't a democratic process. Artists are in their right to present their works to us any which way they want; the way they feel best represents their vision. Of course, we are in OUR right to like or dislike said presentation (just as we can criticize how a book or a painting or a film is put together), but that's where the buck stops.

Also, you're the only one who makes a point of separating the picture from the music - that's a major factor in wanting more music. No picture means there's no context for that 30 second stinger.

Not the only one in film score land, but I seem to be the only one HERE with that angle, yes. At least I haven't yet encountered anyone at jwfan with that preference and general approach to soundtrack listening. As evidenced in this very poll, which kinda "takes it for granted" that everyone prefers all the music from the film all the time. That's a bit annoying to me, but I'm getting used to it.

[Brónach 1,302]

Orchestral music isn't prog-rock isn't it?

I don't know what is the problem some people have with a 30 second cue here and there.

I maintain that there's no need to modify stuff. And if the listen becomes boring, maybe it isn't that good music after all. But, as we all know, 90% of everything is crap. And what if the composer prefers to put all the music in the album and he isn't allowed to do so? I'm aware several composers today would prefer to present their music on CD on a more musical and complete way than what's actually done with it.

When I say that I'd like all the music on album I say it because it's the most ligical thing to do. Specially if it's something of iconic caliber, or that can easily be considered a masterpiece, or that is interesting enough to be studied by other people.

The "film score" is the concept here, not this frustating "album"! Now, if you excuse me...

Palace Music / Entry of the Nobles / The Meeting

[Thor 7,521]

Orchestral music isn't prog-rock isn't it?

Who says anything about orchestral music? I'm talking about soundtracks. Soundtracks are basically concept albums, whatever musical style they're in.

The "film score" is the concept here, not this frustating "album"!

That's where I fundamentally disagree with you. The album is the concept. A film score is a film score, composed and operating as one out of many tools in a film. It basically ceazes to be so without the film. Then it becomes something else together, based on and adapted from the raw materials that WERE once a film score. But that's my angle to this. Two completely different interests.

[Brónach 1,302]

But a film score outside a film is still the same film score because it is the same music.

Unless it's mutilated.

Desperate Love / United Again

[Thor 7,521]

But a film score outside a film is still the same film score because it is the same music.

Unless it's mutilated.

Desperate Love / United Again

Sure, and I wouldn't want to change the contents of the tracks themselves (with a few exceptions, such as fades and overlaps). My wish is only that the tracks be ORGANIZED to create maximum sense from a purely musical standpoint, not filmical. Part of this organization is also omitting tracks that the producers/composers/artists feel don't add anything to this overall experience.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Sure, and I wouldn't want to change the contents of the tracks themselves (with a few exceptions). My wish is only that the tracks be ORGANIZED to create maximum sense from a purely musical standpoint, not filmical. Part of this organization is also omitting tracks that the producers feel don't add anything to this overall experience.

What I'll never get is why, according to you, the chronological order makes no sense from a "purely musical standpoint"?

[Brónach 1,302]

The thing with the sense from a musical standpoint is that is different for everybody.

I'm going to go further than tht and say that this musical sense doesn't exist or only exist if there's an estructure to the music like playing around modifying the themes every time, etc.

For example, you you could say that putting cue C before cue B and ommiting D and then putting G and F makes more musical sense because this and that, but you could say the same for using a different order and a different "explanation". And I think this is bceause these are no ultimately valid "explanations" as the music is abstract and doesn't make sense anyway!

But if a score is mutilated and changed around, shit happens. The structure breaks, missing characteristics/cues/themes appear and then the representation of what the score is like might even be lost.

There are cases of people disliking a score that's actually great due to this.

[Thor 7,521]

Sure, and I wouldn't want to change the contents of the tracks themselves (with a few exceptions). My wish is only that the tracks be ORGANIZED to create maximum sense from a purely musical standpoint, not filmical. Part of this organization is also omitting tracks that the producers feel don't add anything to this overall experience.

What I'll never get is why, according to you, the chronological order makes no sense from a "purely musical standpoint"?

Because it was never intended to stand alone. It follows the exact timings and scenes of the film's narrative. This isn't an ideal ground for "pure music" to unfold and develop. In a film, the music may change between two scenes in a way that would feel awkward or sudden alone. So you need to see what track fits with what other track from a purely musical standpoint - sometimes these tracks are located in opposite ends of the film's narrative. The dramaturgy of a film and a musical piece of, say, 40 minutes (the running time of the average symphony or concept rock album), are very different. So you need to adapt and fit the film's music into a format that makes it play out like any other music album, regardless of genre.

Thankfully, this is still done by most big, major, mainstream labels and releases, but most niche labels shun it like the plague. Which is bad for me, but good for you. Doug Fake at Intrada seems to share my view a bit, though. I only wish he could implement his ideology even more firmly.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Not the only one in film score land, but I seem to be the only one HERE with that angle, yes. At least I haven't yet encountered anyone at jwfan with that preference and general approach to soundtrack listening. As evidenced in this very poll, which kinda "takes it for granted" that everyone prefers all the music from the film all the time. That's a bit annoying to me, but I'm getting used to it.

Of course I take it for granted. You only have to read the threads here to see that people are dying for complete and chronological editions of scores. To approach the poll any differently would be arrogant.

I know what I like, and seeing how strongly I agree with everything you have posted here, it must be pretty close to what you like as well. But I'm not going to assume that it's a more valid way to approach film music than the other (even if I personally feel that way). I'd rather have people explain to me why they feel the way they do.

[Brónach 1,302]

Because it was never intended to stand alone.

So?

[Thor 7,521]

Not the only one in film score land, but I seem to be the only one HERE with that angle, yes. At least I haven't yet encountered anyone at jwfan with that preference and general approach to soundtrack listening. As evidenced in this very poll, which kinda "takes it for granted" that everyone prefers all the music from the film all the time. That's a bit annoying to me, but I'm getting used to it.

Of course I take it for granted. You only have to read the threads here to see that people are dying for complete and chronological editions of scores. To approach the poll any differently would be arrogant.

I know what I like, and seeing how strongly I agree with everything you have posted here, it must be pretty close to what you like as well. But I'm not going to assume that it's a more valid way to approach film music than the other (even if I personally feel that way). I'd rather have people explain to me why they feel the way they do.

Well, it would have been nice (and the opposite of 'arrogant' where I come from) to include an option that said something like "I DON'T prefer all the music for the film", which would have included people like me, even though we are in minority here at jwfan.

But I agree with you regarding the 'valid' thing. Both ways are very valid ways of appreciating soundtracks, opposites though they are. Unfortunately, we can't have both. But it's still fascinating to try and understand why people feel the way they do. I've done quite a few posts here trying to explain some of the rationale and background for my preference (and I KNOW this annoys the moderators, who would rather have me shut up about it). But it would have been nice to read some of your views as well, i.e. WHY you want all the music from the film etc.

Because it was never intended to stand alone.

So?

So you need to help it stand alone.

[Brónach 1,302]

Because it was never intended to stand alone.

So?

So you need to help it stand alone.

But I don't see why. If the music wasn't writen to stand alone, why make it seem what it isn't? And what if works beautifully outside the film anyway, like it actuallly happens most of the time?

I know this last thing because if you listen to certain scores in OST form and in complete form you can actually hear the difference.

[Thor 7,521]

But I don't see why. If the music wasn't writen to stand alone, why make it seem what it isn't?

Because there's no film anymore! You NEED to make it into something new (while maintaining the integrity of the original compositions). That is, IMO, the only way it can survive its journey into a completely new medium. Just as you would when adapting a book to a film.

And what if works beautifully outside the film anyway, like it actuallly happens most of the time?

Well, that's your view. In my view, this happens very rarely, about 1% of the time, maybe.

[Brónach 1,302]

But I don't see why. If the music wasn't writen to stand alone, why make it seem what it isn't?

Because there's no film anymore! You NEED to make it into something new (while maintaining the integrity of the original compositions). That is, IMO, the only way it can survive its journey into a completely new medium. Just as you would when adapting a book to a film.

But it's still music to be heard, it's the same medium. The presence of the film makes no difference, other than in the film you can't appreciate the music as well for all the different reason already explained.

As music isn't a story or a image I can't think of any way it can be "adapted" to a new medium. Other than describing it. Or writing it down in sheet music.

And what if works beautifully outside the film anyway, like it actuallly happens most of the time?

Well, that's your view. In my view, this happens very rarely, about 1% of the time, maybe.

I'm curious at what that 1% would be.

[Thor 7,521]

But it's still music to be heard, it's the same medium. The presence of the film makes no difference, other than in the film you can't appreciate the music as well for all the different reason already explained.

Film and CD are two different media, and music operates in very different ways in them. Hence, if you're transferring music from one to the other, there's a whole other set of properties and "rules" you must answer to and adapt to, just as you normally wouldn't include every single word of a book in a film adaptation.

I'm curious at what that 1% would be.

Well, one C&C release that worked reasonably well recently was Vince diCola's ROCKY IV. The tracks seemed pretty self-contained and the overall album flow worked very well. I also think the Arista STAR WARS CD's work very well. They aren't C&C, but they ARE expansions. I think they work just as well as the old Gerhardt albums; like a different take on the material (the material is so vast here that an expansion was warranted). I sold my RCA 2CD sets, though. They were too extreme.

[Brónach 1,302]

But it's still music to be heard, it's the same medium. The presence of the film makes no difference, other than in the film you can't appreciate the music as well for all the different reason already explained.

Film and CD are two different media, and music operates in very different ways. Hence, if you're transferring music from one to the other, there's a whole other set of properties and "rules" you must answer to, just as you normally wouldn't include every single word of a book in a film adaptation.

You're making up the rules

It's not the same as adapting a book because a book is the whole work and a literal adaptation usually can't be done, and because it IS actually a change of medium of something that can change, a story.

When you take the score, you are not changing it or adapting it, you're cutting out parts and putting the chapters of the book in a different order.

A way to adapt it is to write oiriginal concerts out of the material. Now you have a true adaptation, like a film out of a book. That concert material can be assembled as a suite or as a unique long piece or whatever, it's up to the composer. Now it's not a film score, but it's based on one.

[Thor 7,521]

But it's still music to be heard, it's the same medium. The presence of the film makes no difference, other than in the film you can't appreciate the music as well for all the different reason already explained.

Film and CD are two different media, and music operates in very different ways. Hence, if you're transferring music from one to the other, there's a whole other set of properties and "rules" you must answer to, just as you normally wouldn't include every single word of a book in a film adaptation.

You're making up the rules

It's not the same as adapting a book because a book is the whole work and a literal adaptation usually can't be done, and because it IS actually a change of medium of something that can change, a story.

Well, I think it's the same thing with adapting a film's score to a self-sufficient musical "tone poem" (or concept album) on CD. A film score is also a 'whole work' in the film, and needs to become another 'whole work' on album. Two different media, two different expressions. But based on the same material. Just as a book-to-film.

[Brónach 1,302]

I updated my last post witha longer explanation!