Why certain BIG directors haven't worked with John Williams?

[filmmusic 1,843]

I was just wondering that..

Given that John Williams is considered the best film music composer of the last 40 or so years, why didn't they ever collaborate with him?

Is it because they didn't like his style, or just because circumstances didn't permit? (eg conflicting schedules, etc..)

or maybe John Williams didn't want to work with them ? (meaning that maybe there was a proposal that we don't know about and he kindly refused)

I'm talking about directors like Scorsese, Woody Allen, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, etc..

[TownerFan 4,983]

It could be for a variety of reasons, most of them fairly obvious I guess. Several directors have already ongoing relationships with other composers so they probably never thought asking JW. There are also scheduling conflicts more often than not. And there are also surely personal preferences about the usage of music in their films (like Scorsese and Allen prefer to use pre-existing tracks).

I don't think there's anything exotic or "mysterious" about such things.

[Incanus 5,716]

And certainly personal tastes when it comes to composers and styles has a lot to do with the choosing of a musical collaborator.

[filmmusic 1,843]

well Ridley Scott has changed many composers, so i don't see it why he couldn't have proposed John Williams too just once..

Well, i guess it's personal preference then..

[TownerFan 4,983]

well Ridley Scott has changed many composers, so i don't see it why he couldn't have proposed John Williams too just once..

Well, i guess it's personal preference then..

Actually Ridley tried to get Williams for Alien, but I guess there were scheduling conflicts. Also, I seem to remember that Scott asked JW to compose the source "opera" piece in Hannibal.

[Thor 7,529]

well Ridley Scott has changed many composers, so i don't see it why he couldn't have proposed John Williams too just once..

Well, i guess it's personal preference then..

Actually Ridley tried to get Williams for Alien, but I guess there were scheduling conflicts. Also, I seem to remember that Scott asked JW to compose the source "opera" piece in Hannibal.

What? Williams for ALIEN? Never heard about that before.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

They don't want him cramping their style.

[Jay 37,375]

What? Williams for ALIEN? Never heard about that before.

Are you serious?

[filmmusic 1,843]

well Ridley Scott has changed many composers, so i don't see it why he couldn't have proposed John Williams too just once..

Well, i guess it's personal preference then..

Actually Ridley tried to get Williams for Alien, but I guess there were scheduling conflicts. Also, I seem to remember that Scott asked JW to compose the source "opera" piece in Hannibal.

What? Williams for ALIEN? Never heard about that before.

yes, it was mentioned in another thread here. I don't remember where..

Although i don't know what's the source for this information, maybe it's mentioned in that thread, i don't remember..

@Maurizio

Williams scoring just a source piece, and Zimmer scoring the rest of the film?

That would be interesting!!!

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Actually Ridley tried to get Williams for Alien, but I guess there were scheduling conflicts. Also, I seem to remember that Scott asked JW to compose the source "opera" piece in Hannibal.

What? Williams for ALIEN? Never heard about that before.

Me neither. But considering that Scott deemed even Goldsmith's score as too (I suppose) musical and not wallpapery enough, I don't see how a Williams score could have pleased him.

And there are also surely personal preferences about the usage of music in their films (like Scorsese and Allen prefer to use pre-existing tracks).

Scorsese is a film freak though, and that seems to include scores (don#t forget he had Elmer Bernstein adapt Herrmann's score for Cape Fear). He has/had long standing relationships with Shore and Bernstein, adapting his score/songs ratio to fit the project.

Allen, on the other hand... I imagine the only composer he might agree to for his movies would have been Gershwin...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Allen, on the other hand... I imagine the only composer he might agree to for his movies would have been Gershwin...

Or Philip Glass...

[Ludwig 1,120]

Viewing things from the opposite angle, there are also limitations from Williams' end as well. In an interview way back in 1980 for ESB, he said that he limited himself to two scores per year. That's a lot fewer scores than someone like Alexandre Desplat, for example, who has done as many as seven in one year. So it's not just that certain directors have their preferences, but Williams does as well.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I was just wondering that..

Given that John Williams is considered the best film music composer of the last 40 or so years, why didn't they ever collaborate with him?

Is it because they didn't like his style, or just because circumstances didn't permit? (eg conflicting schedules, etc..)

or maybe John Williams didn't want to work with them ? (meaning that maybe there was a proposal that we don't know about and he kindly refused)

I'm talking about directors like Scorsese, Woody Allen, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, etc..

well because Scorsese doesn't seem to understand film and music the way Spielberg does. Allen, well he's a loon, and I don't want John's music associated with his films,

[Thor 7,529]

Actually Ridley tried to get Williams for Alien, but I guess there were scheduling conflicts. Also, I seem to remember that Scott asked JW to compose the source "opera" piece in Hannibal.

What? Williams for ALIEN? Never heard about that before.

Me neither. But considering that Scott deemed even Goldsmith's score as too (I suppose) musical and not wallpapery enough, I don't see how a Williams score could have pleased him.

Well, I'm sure Williams could have pulled something appropriate off for ALIEN. Something in the style of "Barry's Abduction" from CE3K, the flute concerto or IMAGES, for example.

If there is any truth to this rumour, that's awesome. However, without any official source, I'll put it in the 'urban legend' category.

While there are several big directors who haven't had the opportunity to work with Williams, there is quite a considerable amount who HAVE -- beyond Spielberg. I mean -- Robert Altman, Oliver Stone, Chris Columbus, Don Siegel, Irwin Allen, William Wyler, Gene Kelly, Herbert Ross, Mark Rydell, Norman Jewison, Clint Eastwood, Alfred Hitchcock, Arthur Penn, John Frankenheimer, Brian de Palma, Richard Donner, John Badham, George Miller, Lawrence Kasdan, Alan J. Pakula, Ron Howard, Sydney Pollack, Jean-Jacques Annaud, Alan Parker, Roland Emmerich, Alfonso Cuaron, Rob Marshall......that's a pretty impressive director roster right there.

[filmmusic 1,843]

I was just wondering that..

Given that John Williams is considered the best film music composer of the last 40 or so years, why didn't they ever collaborate with him?

Is it because they didn't like his style, or just because circumstances didn't permit? (eg conflicting schedules, etc..)

or maybe John Williams didn't want to work with them ? (meaning that maybe there was a proposal that we don't know about and he kindly refused)

I'm talking about directors like Scorseze, Woody Allen, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, etc..

well because Scorsese doesn't seem to understand film and music the way Spielberg does.

well, The Age Of Innocence showed me that he can understand very well..

[Jay 37,375]

I wonder why Williams never scored for Eastwood again after The Eiger Sanction

[Brónach 1,302]

Actually Ridley tried to get Williams for Alien, but I guess there were scheduling conflicts. Also, I seem to remember that Scott asked JW to compose the source "opera" piece in Hannibal.

What? Williams for ALIEN? Never heard about that before.

Me neither. But considering that Scott deemed even Goldsmith's score as too (I suppose) musical and not wallpapery enough, I don't see how a Williams score could have pleased him.

Well, I'm sure Williams could have pulled something appropriate off for ALIEN. Something in the style of "Barry's Abduction" from CE3K, the flute concerto or IMAGES, for example.

If there is any truth to this rumour, that's awesome. However, without any official source, I'll put it in the 'urban legend' category.

It's true, and I'm rather surprised you didn't hear of it. It appears mentioned in an old newspaper.

[Thor 7,529]

I'm surprised I didn't hear of it too, since I'm a huge fan of both Ridley Scott and John Williams. There is nothing about this in the books I have about ALIEN and Scott. I'd love to read that newspaper article, though, but I guess it isn't available online.

I wonder why Williams never scored for Eastwood again after The Eiger Sanction

I guess because Eastwood wanted to do his own scores....or rely on Niehaus when he needed "something extra".

I'm more surprised why he never worked with Altman again. Their collaborations all the way back to the TV days are extremely interesting. Very avantgarde and ahead-of-the-game.

[Brónach 1,302]

I saw it online. I don't know about it. It was a bit vague, but I remember it as there being more references to it so I always took it for granted. I dunno.

[filmmusic 1,843]

I'm surprised I didn't hear of it too, since I'm a huge fan of both Ridley Scott and John Williams. There is nothing about this in the books I have about ALIEN and Scott. I'd love to read that newspaper article, though, but I guess it isn't available online.

yeah, me too! Does anyone have it?

[crocodile 8,020]

Me neither. But considering that Scott deemed even Goldsmith's score as too (I suppose) musical and not wallpapery enough

What's really strange is that he said it's one if his favourite scores.

Karol

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Big directors? only Scott of these is big,.. and only with his few biggest hits...

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I would loved to hear what Williams might have composed for a Scorsese film, it could have had so much potential... I can totally imagine him doing something for more recent films of his, like The Departed, The Aviator, Hugo or even his upcoming Silence. That could have so many possibilities....

[Alejandro 26]

I agree that John Williams has worked with A LOT of great directors over the years, many of the big ones as you say.

Williams was even set to do The Double directed by Roman Polanski before John Travolta dropped out.

James Cameron asked Williams to score Titanic, but it was pushed back and 1997 was already a busy, busy year for Williams.

We must not forget that Williams is quite expensive, over $5 million, I believe.

I would like to know, too, why Eastwood never worked with Williams again; perhaps it was the type of films Eastwood was doing at the time, and certainly Lennie became more of an adapter after a certain length of time.

[filmmusic 1,843]

I agree that John Williams has worked with A LOT of great directors over the years, many of the big ones as you say.

Williams was even set to do The Double directed by Roman Polanski before John Travolta dropped out.

James Cameron asked Williams to score Titanic, but it was pushed back and 1997 was already a busy, busy year for Williams.

We must not forget that Williams is quite expensive, over $5 million, I believe.

I would like to know, too, why Eastwood never worked with Williams again; perhaps it was the type of films Eastwood was doing at the time, and certainly Lennie became more of an adapter after a certain length of time.

Now, where did that come from? Do you have a source or something for this?

I hadn't ever heard of this..

[Thor 7,529]

I must admit I haven't heard about -- nor paid particular attention to -- the projects Williams has been offered, but didn't do. Or that people SAY was offered to him. Much of it is hearsay, some of it may be difficult to confirm....I guess that's why I've paid no attention to it. Better to focus on the things he ACTUALLY did.

But I do remember something about the film METEOR being offered to him. And the turkey HEAVEN'S GATE. But again....I have no confirmation of this.

Someone more interested in this than I should make a list of his offers, including -- most importantly -- the official source of the information.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I'm surprised I didn't hear of it too, since I'm a huge fan of both Ridley Scott and John Williams. There is nothing about this in the books I have about ALIEN and Scott. I'd love to read that newspaper article, though, but I guess it isn't available online.

yeah, me too! Does anyone have it?

It comes from the Derek Elley 1978 interview for Films & Filming magazine:

http://mahawa.jw-music.net/misc/interview/elley.htm

(very last question)

I wonder why Williams never scored for Eastwood again after The Eiger Sanction

Jerry Fielding was Eastwood's composer of choice. After Fielding's untimely death, Eastwood turned to Fielding's orchestrator (and fine composer on his own) Lennie Niehaus, who scored almost every Clint's directorial efforts. Then, starting with Mystic River, Eastwood decided to write the score of his own films by himself, leaving to Niehaus orchestration/conducting duties.

[Thor 7,529]

I'm surprised I didn't hear of it too, since I'm a huge fan of both Ridley Scott and John Williams. There is nothing about this in the books I have about ALIEN and Scott. I'd love to read that newspaper article, though, but I guess it isn't available online.

yeah, me too! Does anyone have it?

It comes from the Derek Elley 1978 interview for Films & Filming magazine:

http://mahawa.jw-music.net/misc/interview/elley.htm

(very last question)

Thanks. That's an awesome interview, by the way. Lots of new stuff there that is useful in my research (and some dates that cause further logistic puzzles).

It is, however, disturbing to read that at the time of the interview (1978?) Williams doesn't remember the year he got married to Ruick (he says 55 or 56). Who doesn't remember the year they got married? This leads me to think that some of the information may be fabricated based on biographical data at the time. What do you think?

And now that I've read through the whole thing, something doesn't sit right. It doesn't sound like Williams in many cases, and many of the stories are built around various historical facts that can be obtained elsewhere. And some facts are outright wrong. Williams didn't go 'back east' to study further after he graduated from North Hollywood High. He continued studies in LA. Something smells rotten in the state of Denmark!

[Ollie 1,059]

I agree that John Williams has worked with A LOT of great directors over the years, many of the big ones as you say.

Williams was even set to do The Double directed by Roman Polanski before John Travolta dropped out.

James Cameron asked Williams to score Titanic, but it was pushed back and 1997 was already a busy, busy year for Williams.

We must not forget that Williams is quite expensive, over $5 million, I believe.

I would like to know, too, why Eastwood never worked with Williams again; perhaps it was the type of films Eastwood was doing at the time, and certainly Lennie became more of an adapter after a certain length of time.

Now, where did that come from? Do you have a source or something for this?

I hadn't ever heard of this..

It's true, I've mentiond the book several times on this message board.

It's in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Titanic-Making-James-Cameron-Parisi/dp/B00A17D1IK/ref=sr_1_24?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368749012&sr=1-24&keywords=james+cameron

Cameron basically wanted a big name composer and was looking at Williams but his schedule wouldn't allow him the time and Horner was represented by the same agency.

[Alejandro 26]

^^ yep, I read it in the book

[TownerFan 4,983]

In an interview way back in 1980 for ESB, he said that he limited himself to two scores per year. That's a lot fewer scores than someone like Alexandre Desplat, for example, who has done as many as seven in one year. So it's not just that certain directors have their preferences, but Williams does as well.

We must not forget that from 1980 to 1993 Williams was also Music Director of Boston Pops Orchestra, an activity which inevitably limited his film assignments. So it's very likely he had to turn down many offers from directors with whom he would have been more than happy to work with.

And now that I've read through the whole thing, something doesn't sit right. It doesn't sound like Williams in many cases, and many of the stories are built around various historical facts that can be obtained elsewhere.

Sorry, but this interview is real as it gets. Derek Elley is one of the most respected film journalists around the world.

[Thor 7,529]

Sorry, but this interview is real as it gets. Derek Elley is one of the most respected film journalists around the world.

I'm skeptical. Some of it may be Williams, but some of it definitely seems constructed.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think it's one of the best JW interviews I've ever read. What kind of proof do you need?

[Thor 7,529]

I think it's one of the best JW interviews I've ever read. What kind of proof do you need?

It would be pretty difficult to prove things this way or that way unless you talked to Williams himself. But I could pick out several segments from that interview that are -- at the very least -- suspicious.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Which ones in particular?

[Thor 7,529]

Which ones in particular?

It's 2:30 and I need to go to bed. I'll make a list tomorrow.

[Alejandro 26]

so what other directors should Williams have worked with, because Scorsese & Woody Allen (who loves source music) are only left out of the four mentioned (the other two we suppose Williams was approached at some time).

As thor mentioned, this is an impressive list already of the directors he's worked with, " ... Robert Altman, Oliver Stone, Chris Columbus, Don Siegel, Irwin Allen, William Wyler, Gene Kelly, Herbert Ross, Mark Rydell, Norman Jewison, Clint Eastwood, Alfred Hitchcock, Arthur Penn, John Frankenheimer, Brian de Palma, Richard Donner, John Badham, George Miller, Lawrence Kasdan, Alan J. Pakula, Ron Howard, Sydney Pollack, Jean-Jacques Annaud, Alan Parker, Roland Emmerich, Alfonso Cuaron, Rob Marshall ..."

[TownerFan 4,983]

Which ones in particular?

It's 2:30 and I need to go to bed. I'll make a list tomorrow.

I find very hard to believe that a serious journalist writing for one of the most respected film magazine of that era (Films & Filming) spent time to make a fake John Williams interview.

[Ollie 1,059]

Maurizio, don't waste your time. I remember at the time of ALIEN's release that Williams was considered, I read it in several magazines.

If I'm not mistaken he could have worked with Tim Burton on Batman, the producers wanted him but Burton convinced them to go with Elfman.

[filmmusic 1,843]

so what other directors should Williams have worked with, because Scorsese & Woody Allen (who loves source music) are only left out of the four mentioned (the other two we suppose Williams was approached at some time).

hmmm... Terrence Mallick, Francis Ford Coppola, and I'm sure others too that i can't think of right now..

I agree that John Williams has worked with A LOT of great directors over the years, many of the big ones as you say.

Williams was even set to do The Double directed by Roman Polanski before John Travolta dropped out.

James Cameron asked Williams to score Titanic, but it was pushed back and 1997 was already a busy, busy year for Williams.

We must not forget that Williams is quite expensive, over $5 million, I believe.

I would like to know, too, why Eastwood never worked with Williams again; perhaps it was the type of films Eastwood was doing at the time, and certainly Lennie became more of an adapter after a certain length of time.

Now, where did that come from? Do you have a source or something for this?

I hadn't ever heard of this..

It's true, I've mentiond the book several times on this message board.

It's in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Titanic-Making-James-Cameron-Parisi/dp/B00A17D1IK/ref=sr_1_24?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368749012&sr=1-24&keywords=james+cameron

Cameron basically wanted a big name composer and was looking at Williams but his schedule wouldn't allow him the time and Horner was represented by the same agency.

ok, it's one think that he was considering Williams and another thing that he actually contacted him and offered it to him.

What of the 2 does the book say?

By the way, I would love if Williams had scored that film. It's among my favourite films..

But as the years pass, I find the score less and less interesting (especially the action parts or the synth choir used), although I loved it at first..

[Once 605]

so what other directors should Williams have worked with, because Scorsese & Woody Allen (who loves source music) are only left out of the four mentioned (the other two we suppose Williams was approached at some time).

From the top of my head; Fred Zinnemann, Michael Haneke, Billy Wilder, Hayao Miyazaki, Sergio Leone, David Fincher, David Lean, Robert Zemeckis, Wes Anderson, Peter Jackson (Tintin 2?), Coen Brothers, Blake Edwards, Terry Gilliam, Guillermo del Toro, David Lynch, Giuseppe Tornatore, Paul Thomas Anderson, Brad Bird, Kenneth Branagh, Francis Ford Coppola, Mel Gibson, Lars von Trier, Quentin Tarantino, Tim Burton, Joe Dante, Christopher Nolan, Roman Polanski...

Very varied opportunities here. I'd be interested in just about every one of those.

[Alejandro 26]

Roman Polanski almost happened. The other directors ... Eh, I'm very satisfied with the crop he HAS worked for. Coen Bros. and del Toro are the only other interesting choices for me. I don't wish Tarantino on any composer.

[publicist 4,643]

Re: ALIEN

The composer Howard Blake (of THE DUELLISTS) was first choice for Scott. Goldsmith and Williams were Fox candidates (and requests). As Blake himself told in a SOUNDTRACK interview.

[Alejandro 26]

I'm reading the book Torn Music: Rejected Film Scores, and I'm sort of glad Williams never worked for Scott. Jerry had miserable experiences with Ridley.

[Thor 7,529]

Maurizio, I'm not saying it's an entirely 'fake' interview. I'm sure he talked to Williams, and many of those replies are indeed his words. But I also strongly suspect he embellished quite a bit, based on available biographical data. This is not uncommon, even for serious journalists. I'm not saying this to be difficult. It's just my immediate gut reaction upon reading it. I've read many Williams interviews over the years, but this is the first time I've encountered such doubt. To be fair, the doubt is mostly in the answers about the early stuff, not the collaboration comments, which sound like Williams.

In general, there are two things that stand out -- first is the language and prose, which at times seems too informal and scatterbrained for the always eloquent Williams. Second is the neatly organized biographical data (and the parentheses with extra information), which really looks like he took the data and then 'created' some comments around that without any real insight.

More specifically, there are quotes like these:

"I first went to California in 1948 /.../ with my parents".

He actually went first to California with his parents in 1938 or thereabouts.

"...and then went back East to school for a year"

He went back east only after the air force.

"I went back to Julliard in 1954..."

He went to Julliard in 1955 after air force discharge in January.

"Then I got married in 55 or 56...."

I've never met anyone who didn't remember the year they got married. Most people also remember the date. Yet he easily mentions the piano sonata and wind quintet that he composed at age 19.

"He'd have the third trombone way up in the tenor clef, and trumpets low down doing some funny thing - as if some Chinaman had written the score!"

Does this really sound like Williams?

I don't know...I could be paranoid about all of this, but I get the feeling that he combined real quotes with some 'extra' information here and there, culled by the biographical data he had at his disposal (hence the errors....I find that more likely than a faulty memory on Williams' behalf).

[filmmusic 1,843]

Well, I can't remember exactly important dates in my life. Why everyone should remember? (ok, i'm not talking about marriage, I'm not married anyway), but the others you say? Anyone can make a mistake in the year in a discussion..

[Thor 7,529]

It's a combination of factors, not just the faulty years and biographical elements. Of course, I could be wrong. It was just a hunch. But a strong hunch.

[A24 4,347]

Re: ALIEN

The composer Howard Blake (of THE DUELLISTS) was first choice for Scott. Goldsmith and Williams were Fox candidates (and requests). As Blake himself told in a SOUNDTRACK interview.

The Duellists has a downright beautiful score. Never knew he was on Scott's mind when he made Alien.

[Thor 7,529]

Re: ALIEN

The composer Howard Blake (of THE DUELLISTS) was first choice for Scott. Goldsmith and Williams were Fox candidates (and requests). As Blake himself told in a SOUNDTRACK interview.

The Duellists has a downright beautiful score. Never knew he was on Scott's mind when he made Alien.

Yes, Howard Blake is mentioned as a candidate in the FILMS OF RIDLEY SCOTT book by Paul Sammon too, if memory serves. Never heard anything about Williams, so all of that was news to me.

[Arnaud 6]

To reply to the original post, Williams has worked on so many films with Spielberg and Lucas, it reduced his availability a great deal.

As for Woody Allen, he couldn't possibly afford JW.

Ridley Scott is another matter. It's possible Jerry Goldsmith told him what a disappointment Alien had been to him. As much as I love Howard Hanson's symphony - and I am grateful to Scott because that's how learned of its existence - , I still don't understand why Scott replaced Goldsmith amazing End Title track with Hanson's composition. It just doesn't make sense to do that on exit music. There is no excuse. And that was just the cherry on the cake...

And then, after having been lured to work with Scott again on Legend (another great JG score) it became another kind of nightmare (having his score replaced by tangerine Dream for the US release). So Williams and Scott: this could have turned into a legendary Hollywood clash!