Is Hans Zimmer the most revolutionary film composer of all time?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Interpret the appellation film composer as you wish.

[if you want to call Aaron Copland a "film composer," fine, but I think that's a stretch; Philip Glass, maybe, but it would seem more appropriate to refer to him as a composer who happens to write for film on occasion]

[Ludwig 1,120]

Revolutionary, no. Divisive, yes. But if by revolutionary you mean the ability to cause such divisiveness, then perhaps the answer is yes.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Do you accept the premise that he's been revolutionary?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yes; whether that's good or bad, whether you like it or not, there's no doubting he's been the most influential film composer of all time. And before any of you can dismiss that statement, influential doesn't solely mean inspirational. He's the most temp-tracked composer.

[Datameister 2,044]

I'm tempted to say yes. He's not my favorite composer by a long shot, but the fact remains that he's played a critical role in establishing some extremely popular styles of film scoring. It's not hard to point to scores by other composers that are more innovative and original, but none of them have caught on with the public (and other composers) in a way that seems as "revolutionary."

[Red 75]

In recent years, yes. He virtually created the predominant sound in modern film scores single-handedly. For better or for worse it has been a successful and widespread shift in the industry. Though there remains some diversity and "old school" music from some corners I don't know if and when the wave will break and usher in another era.

But of all time? No. That will always be John Williams.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Do you accept the premise that he's been revolutionary?

If revolutionary means influential, then there's no question the answer's yes. But if we mean something more akin to the origin of certain trends, I'm not so sure about that. I would guess that Zimmer wasn't "the first" to do anything in particular, even though his sound has become hugely influential. So I suppose it comes down to definitions.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I'm tempted to say yes. He's not my favorite composer by a long shot, but the fact remains that he's played a critical role in establishing some extremely popular styles of film scoring. It's not hard to point to scores by other composers that are more innovative and original, but none of them have caught on with the public (and other composers) in a way that seems as "revolutionary."

Right. It's not a referendum on Zimmer's compositional chops. I think his musical footprint in Hollywood is massive and undeniable and arguably more disruptive and paradigm-shifting than what Herrmann did in pioneering minimalism or what North, Bernstein, or Rosenman did in integrating jazz into the cinematic idiom.

In recent years, yes. He virtually created the predominant sound in modern film scores single-handedly. For better or for worse it has been a successful and widespread shift in the industry. Though there remains some diversity and "old school" music from some corners I don't know if and when the wave will break and usher in another era.

But of all time? No. That will always be John Williams.

Really?

Do you accept the premise that he's been revolutionary?

If revolutionary means influential, then there's no question the answer's yes. But if we mean something more akin to the origin of certain trends, I'm not so sure about that. I would guess that Zimmer wasn't "the first" to do anything in particular, even though his sound has become hugely influential. So I suppose it comes down to definitions.

Fair enough. I suppose we could say that John Locke was truly "revolutionary" and that the American Founding Fathers were merely "influential." I think the problem with trying to pin down origins is that it's easy to go slippery slope.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Hlao-roo 389]

(Moderators, if you want to move this poll to the other forum, go ahead. My bad.)

[Incanus 5,715]

Interpret the appellation film composer as you wish.

[if you want to call Aaron Copland a "film composer," fine, but I think that's a stretch; Philip Glass, maybe, but it would seem more appropriate to refer to him as a composer who happens to write for film on occasion]

Philip Glass doesn't just write for the films on occasion. He has 111 film scores to his name, albeit that quite a few are short films and documentaries.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Interpret the appellation film composer as you wish.

[if you want to call Aaron Copland a "film composer," fine, but I think that's a stretch; Philip Glass, maybe, but it would seem more appropriate to refer to him as a composer who happens to write for film on occasion]

Philip Glass doesn't just write for the films on occasion. He has 111 film scores to his name, albeit that quite a few are short films and documentaries.

I was not aware. Thanks.

[Incanus 5,715]

Interpret the appellation film composer as you wish.

[if you want to call Aaron Copland a "film composer," fine, but I think that's a stretch; Philip Glass, maybe, but it would seem more appropriate to refer to him as a composer who happens to write for film on occasion]

Philip Glass doesn't just write for the films on occasion. He has 111 film scores to his name, albeit that quite a few are short films and documentaries.

I was not aware. Thanks.

Actually it came as a surprise to me as well. He was doing a few concerts here in Helsinki a while back and I checked out his resume on the concert's homepage and it mentioned his extensive film work. But of course it is of a smaller scale than 100 million Hollywood blockbusters so it goes unnoticed in the film music fandom. Also the releases for these smaller scores might be scarce as well.

[publicist 4,643]

Even if he's very influential, i think the music he and RCP are responsible for is mostly old news...in style and content. So it would be a bastardization of the term to call it 'revolutionary'. You can call it what you want, but revolutionary doesn't really cut it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

For me revolutionary implies initiating sweeping change, regardless of its originality or inspirations. I think it's fair to say that Billy Beane revolutionized the game of baseball while relying heavily on the innovative work of Bill James.

[Incanus 5,715]

I think Zimmer has been an innovator on the music production and business side of things, adapting with chameleon-like skill to the modern film business environment.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I think Zimmer has been an innovator on the music production and business side of things, adapting with chameleon-like skill to the modern film business environment.

Good point. An additional facet worth looking at.

Question for those voting no: which composer(s) have been, in your view, more "revolutionary"?

[publicist 4,643]

Inevitably, Bernard Herrmann, and even if we narrow it down to Zimmeresque pop/rock/electronic hybrids, i'd still say Giorgio Moroder and Vangelis can be considered revolutionary, as in introducing these styles to a mass audience. Philip Glass is another very influential source.

(as for the music production aspect, this was a business-savvy measure...i'm not sure we are helping matters if we define it as 'revolutionary' for film music, as the term implies a movement forward which i'm not sure Media Ventures/RCP has initiated; it's as if you are saying 'we have now found a way to build cheaper cars abroad under horrifying conditions for all people involved' and label that as 'revolutionary'. Even the RCP alumni hardly ever venture out as talent to watch, Powell and a few others excepted, so i don't see who except Zimmer and blockbuster producers really profits from them).

[Thor 7,518]

"Of all time" is a bit too much, but he's definitely the most influential film composer in the last 25 years. One could argue that the recent sound, at least in Hollywood action movies, stems more from John Powell's "Bourne riff" (which even Zimmer has appropriated and expanded upon), but even Powell has his roots in the Zimmer school. Zimmer had his most revolutionary period from BLACK RAIN in 1989 and onwards into the 90s and early 2000s when the 'power anthem' was all the rage.

I'm not even sure who the most 'revolutionary' film composer is. It's easy to say Max Steiner if only because he laid the groundwork for the contemporary approach to Hollywood scoring in sound films, but even he drew his inspirations from late romantic classical music. So it's more in terms of application than sound.

[Incanus 5,715]

Inevitably, Bernard Herrmann, and even if we narrow it down to Zimmeresque pop/rock/electronic hybrids, i'd still say Giorgio Moroder and Vangelis can be considered revolutionary, as in introducing these styles to a mass audience. Philip Glass is another very influential source.

(as for the music production aspect, this was a business-savvy measure...i'm not sure we are helping matters if we define it as 'revolutionary' for film music, as the term implies a movement forward which i'm not sure Media Ventures/RCP has initiated; it's as if you are saying 'we have now found a way to build cheaper cars abroad under horrifying conditions for all people involved' and label that as 'revolutionary'. Even the RCP alumni hardly ever venture out as talent to watch, Powell and a few others excepted, so i don't see who except Zimmer and blockbuster producers really profits from them).

I would argue that Zimmer's and RCP's approach to assembling music much like you assemble a car on a production line with many people participating in various capacities in writing the music is revolutionary in film music if not new in arts in general (e.g. masters passing projects to apprentices). It has changed the way we look at the industry of film music making these days with the individual composer (with retinue of staff of course) replaced by a great many people, who all participate in creating the actual music with or for the "main composer". This is a new collaborative way of working, whether good or bad. You go figure does it make legitimate credited artists of the people who would have settled for ghost writing in the decades past or provide other actual perks outside saving the main composer's time so he can divide it on a number of projects.

[crocodile 8,018]

He has revolutionised some of the process in technical terms and helped to severe ties with tradition. And I wouldn't call it exactly insignificant, because HOW you do things is kind of... crucial.

There are many people who did bring something to the table. Prokofiev, Steiner, Herrmann, even Goldenthal.

Karol

[Thor 7,518]

Inevitably, Bernard Herrmann, and even if we narrow it down to Zimmeresque pop/rock/electronic hybrids, i'd still say Giorgio Moroder and Vangelis can be considered revolutionary, as in introducing these styles to a mass audience. Philip Glass is another very influential source.

(as for the music production aspect, this was a business-savvy measure...i'm not sure we are helping matters if we define it as 'revolutionary' for film music, as the term implies a movement forward which i'm not sure Media Ventures/RCP has initiated; it's as if you are saying 'we have now found a way to build cheaper cars abroad under horrifying conditions for all people involved' and label that as 'revolutionary'. Even the RCP alumni hardly ever venture out as talent to watch, Powell and a few others excepted, so i don't see who except Zimmer and blockbuster producers really profits from them).

I would argue that Zimmer's and RCP's approach to assembling music much like you assemble a car on a production line with many people participating in various capacities in writing the music is revolutionary in film music if not new in arts in general (e.g. masters passing projects to apprentices). It has changed the way we look at the industry of film music making these days with the individual composer (with retinue of staff of course) replaced by a great many people, who all participate in creating the actual music with or for the "main composer". This is a new collaborative way of working, whether good or bad. You go figure does it make legitimate credited artists of the people who would have settled for ghost writing in the decades past or provide other actual perks outside saving the main composer's time so he can divide it on a number of projects.

Well, I actually think the 'collaborative' aspect is nothing new. Back in the days of Hollywood's Golden Age, there was lots of collaboration within the music departments to the extent that orchestrators also wrote music on occasion. The difference is that Zimmer tends to credit his coworkers with their specific capacities, while that was less the case back in the day. Heck, for a long time, the head of the music department used to collect the Oscar prize instead of the composer himself.

[publicist 4,643]

A slight unease for me is to call all this MUSIC in capitals, now we talk about music production and act as if one of those typical 130-minute RCP scores is essentially the same as a huge Rózsa score just assembled a wee bit differently. May we at least say that whatever Zimmer and cohorts produce, it is not always and doesn't act always MUSIC per se, but in a lot of cases, sound design - as per the wish of the actual producers.

That's where my tummyache regarding 'revolutionary' comes in: if i take the genre of film music really as a MUSICAL genre, i don't know if that indeed was in any way revolutionized by modern aesthetics. A lot of it barely can be called music and isn't called up to be such (Horner complained in Vienna how composers now aren't even considered artists but technical personnel like ADR recordists and such).

[Thor 7,518]

Of course it's music. But I would agree that there are some instances where the line gets blurred -- like Brad Fiedel's TERMINATOR scores (beyond the theme, anyway). Or some of Karl-Heinz Stockhausen's stuff. Or the 'noise music' scene. In this case, the line between music and sound design gets blurred. But so far, I haven't heard anything from either Zimmer or RCP that comes close. Some ambient stuff, sure, but definitely music.

[publicist 4,643]

'Some ambient stuff' often constitutes half of the cues! MAN OF STEEL is a good example but the same goes for a lot of his post-GLADIATOR work. Relentless percussion-hammering or slow-burning chord swells are also musical devices for the poor rather than something worth to make much fuss over.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No!

Next!

[Thor 7,518]

'Some ambient stuff' often constitutes half of the cues! MAN OF STEEL is a good example but the same goes for a lot of his post-GLADIATOR work. Relentless percussion-hammering or slow-burning chord swells are also musical devices for the poor rather than something worth to make much fuss over.

I think there's some excellent music in the ambient genre which deserves to be treated with respect, whether it's Brian Eno or Industrial electronica. Or recent stuff by the likes of Mark Isham, Cliff Martinez, Clint Mansell etc. Or heck, even Zimmer's own THIN RED LINE, for example. For me, this is the kind of music that I listen to THE MOST these days.

Also, I must admit I don't recognize the 'relentless percussion-hammering or slow burning slow chords' (both of which can actually be interesting sometimes!) as the be-all, end-all aspect o his post-GLADIATOR output. Quite the contrary, it seems to cover a lot of different styles, moods and expressions.

[publicist 4,643]

First, you don't even know if those artists you listed are that interested in labelling anything they produce as MUSIC, nor is THIN RED LINE ambient for the most part. It actually features extensive melodic writing (the complete score even more) quite unlike a lot of RCP scores.

Again, i think you rather casually assume that the few scores you actually like to listen to constitute the whole RCP output which, as my Spotify account time and time again testifies, is a bottomless pit of film and tv confections that often features two or three nice cues, usually heavily ethnic stuff, and lots of faceless droning.

[Thor 7,518]

First, you don't even know if those artists you listed are that interested in labelling anything they produce as MUSIC, nor is THIN RED LINE ambient for the most part. It actually features extensive melodic writing (the complete score even more) quite unlike a lot of RCP scores.

Again, i think you rather casually assume that the few scores you actually like to listen to constitute the whole RCP output which, as my Spotify account time and time again testifies, is a bottomless pit of film and tv confections that often features two or three nice cues, usually heavily ethnic stuff, and lots of faceless droning.

Well, that's your opinion which you have every right to have.

I don't share it, and my own experience is rather different than yours. I've listened to many RCP scores over the last ten years, and I've heard a wide range of styles and expressions, even though the Zimmer stamp is felt in certain parts throughout most of them (which for me isn't necessarily a negative thing, as Zimmer is one of my favourite composers of all time).

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

There are many people who did bring something to the table. Prokofiev, Steiner, Herrmann, even Goldenthal.

And in their case, the influence is still there after 80 years. We'll see in half a century whether Zimmer & Co have the long lasting influence of e.g. Steiner & Korngold.

[Romão 2,274]

Immediate influence is not necessarily a good indicator. Like Marian said, let's see in a few decades if Zimmer has left any lasting impact or influence

[filmmusic 1,838]

Immediate influence is not necessarily a good indicator. Like Marian said, let's see in a few decades if Zimmer has left any lasting impact or influence

I would be very curious to find out indeed...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Immediate influence is not necessarily a good indicator. Like Marian said, let's see in a few decades if Zimmer has left any lasting impact or influence

I think Zimmer's influence will be a bit like Henry Mancini's in the 60's. That romantic, light pop score sound very much belonged to a certain era.

While occasionally references, it hasn't really transformed film music in it's core in any lasting sense.

[publicist 4,643]

Not really comparable. Against Thor's steadfast claims to the contrary, i still say the Zimmer/RCP influence of the last 15 years actually contributed only in a) homogenizing and b) moving the genre of filmmusic away from being music for music's sake (which film music of course never was but at least it sometimes almost got there) to being a functional adjunct to the soundtrack.

This all is a futile discussion, since we all know there's the Thor/Koray side of things, and the...well, the other side, still, the big tragedy that so many great film music of the past got lost or unusable, while 70 minute long Atli-Ovarson-albums are released by the minute is perhaps the biggest disappointment. Since i rarely watch current movies anyway, i don't even complain about Hollywood movies getting the RCP treatment that much.

[gkgyver 1,645]

In an art form that is very young, revolutionary doesn't mean much. But in this light, yes he is. For the worse, but he is.

[Thor 7,518]

This all is a futile discussion, since we all know there's the Thor/Koray side of things, and the...well, the other side, still, the big tragedy that so many great film music of the past got lost or unusable, while 70 minute long Atli-Ovarson-albums are released by the minute is perhaps the biggest disappointment. Since i rarely watch current movies anyway, i don't even complain about Hollywood movies getting the RCP treatment that much.

It is indeed a somewhat futile discussion, because we seem to have two different worldviews (or more specifically, two very different experiences with film music in recent years).

However, if you're interested in films (which I assume most of us are), I recommend you to check out films OUTSIDE the Hollywood action genre, since that seems to be where your discontent primarily lies. There are tons of great movies out there, with brilliant scores to boot, that cover every style imaginable.

[publicist 4,643]

Thor, i know more than a few outside-Hollywood movies and i know that even if from this day on no movie ever would have a score at all, you still would compulsively insist that there never was a better period for film music, it's just your nature.

What i think should be made clearer,especially in light of whom this messageboard is dedicated to, is that a lot of people think of film music as a way of vivid storytelling. And you can twist and turn, this isn't how music by and large functions today in film, and not only Hollywood, since a lot of non-HW-filmmakers of course are influenced by that, too. Of course there are bright spots and brilliant applications of music to picture, but that is really not the norm and also shouldn't include great song scores (we just as well might include cricket chirping then).

So in essence, i don't dislike a score like GIRL WITH A DRAGON TATTOO per se, i like quite a few Martinez or Mansell scores (recently: STOKER!) but i also see that they often don't function as great storytelling but more as loose moodsetters that often are rather vague in what they are conveying. This isn't to say they are bad or good, only that they are not able to direct my interest as the best Herrmann/Williams/Goldsmith-etc. scores could do. And that, for me is a fact that can be objectively proven. And those examples are still miles better than a lot - read. not all - factory-assembled RCP clone scores that range from GAME OF THRONES to the recent ENDER'S GAME.

[filmmusic 1,838]

It is indeed a somewhat futile discussion, because we seem to have two different worldviews (or more specifically, two very different experiences with film music in recent years).

However, if you're interested in films (which I assume most of us are), I recommend you to check out films OUTSIDE the Hollywood action genre, since that seems to be where your discontent primarily lies. There are tons of great movies out there, with brilliant scores to boot, that cover every style imaginable.

Thor, I love the symphonic thematic style ala Ben Hur, The Robe, Cleopatra, Lawrence of Arabia, Gone with the wind, North By Northwest, Total Recall etc. (and of course the Williams scores)

Are there big productions with such scores today outside of Hollywood?

[Thor 7,518]

Thor, i know more than a few outside-Hollywood movies and i know that even if from this day on no movie ever would have a score at all, you still would compulsively insist that there never was a better period for film music, it's just your nature.

What i think should be made clearer,especially in light of whom this messageboard is dedicated to, is that a lot of people think of film music as a way of vivid storytelling. And you can twist and turn, this isn't how music by and large functions today in film, and not only Hollywood, since a lot of non-HW-filmmakers of course are influenced by that, too. Of course there are bright spots and brilliant applications of music to picture, but that is really not the norm and also shouldn't include great song scores (we just as well might include cricket chirping then).

So in essence, i don't dislike a score like GIRL WITH A DRAGON TATTOO per se, i like quite a few Martinez or Mansell scores (recently: STOKER!) but i also see that they often don't function as great storytelling but more as loose moodsetters that often are rather vague in what they are conveying. This isn't to say they are bad or good, only that they are not able to direct my interest as the best Herrmann/Williams/Goldsmith-etc. scores could do. And that, for me is a fact that can be objectively proven. And those examples are still miles better than a lot - read. not all - factory-assembled RCP clone scores that range from GAME OF THRONES to the recent ENDER'S GAME.

Storytelling is very important, but for some films -- especially more art-oriented films -- storytelling is less important than communicating various audiovisual ideas. Such films aren't served well by a traditional, themedriven score. That's not what they're about. In fact, few of them have much non-diegetic score in the first place. While a director like Michael Haneke certainly tells stories (and isn't all-out arty), he is very concerned with realism, creating moods and intense situations more than anything. So the lack of score is the best way to go.

That's why I find it difficult to answer filmmusic's question -- it's like asking if there's any good rap outside the rap genre. Hollywood isn't only a geographical place, it's a paradigm that is adopted all over the world. The alternative is a style that goes against it. But I'm sure you'll find plenty of colourful symphonic scores outside Hollywood too. I'm listening to one right now -- Laurent Eyquem's COPPERHEAD.

[filmmusic 1,838]

Storytelling is very important, but for some films -- especially more art-oriented films -- storytelling is less important than communicating various audiovisual ideas. Such films aren't served well by a traditional, themedriven score.

Well, Kieslowksi films have excellent thematic scores and they are art-oriented.

So I don't agree that such films are not served well by such scores and require (i assume that is what you meant) a minimalistic ambient score.

The point I wanted to make with my question, is that there isn't really an alternative for those of us that love old films and the traditional films scores..

That's why I also have stopped watching current films and watch only old ones..

[Thor 7,518]

Well, Kieslowksi films have excellent thematic scores and they are art-oriented.

So I don't agree that such films are not served well by such scores and require (i assume that is what you meant) a minimalistic ambient score.

No, of course it depends on the filmmaker. But generally, more sociorealistic films (or arty films) these days don't rely much on a non-diegetic score at all. Which is how it should be, IMO. It would be terribly boring if all films had wall-to-wall music, whether orchestral or other styles.

The point I wanted to make with my question, is that there isn't really an alternative for those of us that love old films and the traditional films scores..

That's why I also have stopped watching current films and watch only old ones..

Personally, I think there's plenty of great scores in that idiom if that's what you prefer -- the old generation (Williams, Morricone etc.), the middle generation (Silvestri, Horner, Elfman etc.) and the new generation (Giacchino, Desplat, Marianelli etc.). The great thing about the current scene, however, is that this is only one part of the whole thing. Also, new and talented composers are cropping up all the time, composing the kind of music you guys love so much. Just the other day, I was listening to Jane Antonia Cornish's adventorous ISLAND OF THE LOST SOULS, which is about as traditional and colourful and symphonic as you can get.

It's really only a question of where you look. If you go to another Hollywood blockbuster action film expecting something new, and then getting another classic ostinato sound, you'll probably just end up confirming your own prejudices.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Thor, i know more than a few outside-Hollywood movies and i know that even if from this day on no movie ever would have a score at all, you still would compulsively insist that there never was a better period for film music, it's just your nature.

What i think should be made clearer,especially in light of whom this messageboard is dedicated to, is that a lot of people think of film music as a way of vivid storytelling. And you can twist and turn, this isn't how music by and large functions today in film, and not only Hollywood, since a lot of non-HW-filmmakers of course are influenced by that, too. Of course there are bright spots and brilliant applications of music to picture, but that is really not the norm and also shouldn't include great song scores (we just as well might include cricket chirping then).

So in essence, i don't dislike a score like GIRL WITH A DRAGON TATTOO per se, i like quite a few Martinez or Mansell scores (recently: STOKER!) but i also see that they often don't function as great storytelling but more as loose moodsetters that often are rather vague in what they are conveying. This isn't to say they are bad or good, only that they are not able to direct my interest as the best Herrmann/Williams/Goldsmith-etc. scores could do. And that, for me is a fact that can be objectively proven. And those examples are still miles better than a lot - read. not all - factory-assembled RCP clone scores that range from GAME OF THRONES to the recent ENDER'S GAME.

Whether you want lush orchestral storytelling with themes and motifs or mood setting ambience is besides the point - both are film scores and are indeed music. That's just fact. You're literally saying your opinion is the right and true way of how to compose a score.

[publicist 4,643]

Can't you (all) think outside of your 'lush themes' vs. 'ambient' box? Are harsh Goldsmith 60's scores like SECONDS lush orchestral storytelling? Of course they are not, and still the score is able to convey a lot of á propos emotion in a very precise way in under 20 minutes - i don't find that level of dedication in most musical approaches these days, save a few scores like GHOST WRITER or TINKER TAILER SOLDIER SPY.

Will have an eye on the cornish score, Thor, but beware if it's just mediocre.

[Thor 7,518]

That was more directed at filmmusic, who asked for 'lush, romantic scores'. I'm not sure it's what you're after.

If you're more interested in more cerebral scores, what do you think of Johnny Greenwood's scores?

[filmmusic 1,838]

Can't you (all) think outside of your 'lush themes' vs. 'ambient' box? Are harsh Goldsmith 60's scores like SECONDS lush orchestral storytelling? Of course they are not, and still the score is able to convey a lot of á propos emotion in a very precise way in under 20 minutes - i don't find that level of dedication in most musical approaches these days, save a few scores like GHOST WRITER or TINKER TAILER SOLDIER SPY.

ok,yes, I completely agree too.

(i just mentioned those scores to make my point more clear).

I also loved the TTSS score you mention.

Although it sounds like an ambient score at times or something, it's by no means an ambient score like the ones used today.

It has a high level of sophistication that rarely can be found these days.

and the level of sophistication or the dedication to musical approach you say, depends largely, on the musical knowledge of a composer.

I don't know why music studies are so underestimated today concerning film composers.

I had a discussion in a greek film music blog, and most people don't accept musical knowledge at all!

they think that musical knowledge helps you only to write your music on paper!

It's far from it!!

Musical knowledge helps you organize your thoughts in the same way that knowing a language well, helps you organise your thoughts and write a book.

If you don't know syntax, if you don't have a rich vocabulary, how can you write a great piece of literature?

[Thor 7,518]

I utterly disliked TINKER, TAILOR..., but then again I never liked Iglesias much in the first place. Too many intense 'intense drones' with very little harmonic and melodic variation. I didn't find THE GHOST WRITER particularly interesting either (it was OK), but the great thing about that one is the spotting in the film itself -- i.e. the sparing use of music.

[karelm 2,914]

My opinion is Zimmer is not revolution but influential. He owes a big part of his success to two things:

1. The ability to produce more widgets (music product) than anyone else faster and to speck via his army of minions thus inundating the “sound” of movies we expect to hear.
2. The loss of nearly all real composers in a very short interval of time resulting in a dearth of alternatives (John Barry, Goldsmith, Bernstein, Kamen, Jarre, Poledouris). Meanwhile, JW slowed down in the past decade to only a handful of scores and was therefore not quite as impactful as he was in the 1970’s and 1980’s.

Since HZ inundated movies given his ability to somehow work on multiple projects at the same time given his methods, and having so many alumni of his company – they were everywhere. He also had a string of huge hits (Pirates, Dark Knight, etc.) resulting in new group of directors saying “hey, I want a hit too…let me copy their formula”.

Since the alternatives have slowed down or died off – you get a lot of INFLUENCE of HZ and RC. A lot of films get temped with his stuff because directors think this is what movies sound like since there aren’t a lot of alternatives and Hollywood is not generally keen on risk.

JW is timeless whereas HZ is more of a fad that will fade away when alternatives make money and everyone starts emulating that new thing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with much of what Karelm says. though the "real" composers part doesn't quite sit right with me.

Some of them (Poledouris, Barry, Jarre) were prety much semi-retired before they passed. And there are still many "real"composers of the 80's and upwards active (Elfman, Silvestri, JHN etc)

[indy4 155]

I'd say Korngold and Steiner. Zimmer's sound probably wouldn't exist without JW's film music Renaissance, which would have never happened if Steiner and Korngold didn't bring the European music tradition to American films in the 1930s.

[crocodile 8,018]

I utterly disliked TINKER, TAILOR..., but then again I never liked Iglesias much in the first place. Too many intense 'intense drones' with very little harmonic and melodic variation. I didn't find THE GHOST WRITER particularly interesting either (it was OK), but the great thing about that one is the spotting in the film itself -- i.e. the sparing use of music.

Wha? That is some beautiful and detailed music. Too restrained for modern western audiences, perhaps.

Karol - shock and horrified