Star Wars is better than everything

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

[Chen G. 3,965]

 

In this case, I don't think Lucas ever made the connection to the Pieta to begin with.

 

Its the same train of thought (no offense, Herr Schilkeman) as the Kubrickians who look at the background of the conference room in 2001 and decide it has the same aspect ratio as some famous painting and that there's some sort of concealed statement in there...

[Schilkeman 969]

I don’t find it hard to believe at all that a man who has spent no small part of his fortune building a museum for narrative art would be influenced enough by one of the most famous sculptures in the world to include a reference to it in his films. 
 

But more to my point, the Pieta is just a brief visual allusion. There are many more elements of symbolic vocabulary throughout the saga that are purely visual, and don’t show up in script drafts. They’re baked into the design of the film itself.

 

No offense, but I think you miss the forest for the tress with your source mining, when you aren’t moving the trees around for your desired view.

[Chen G. 3,965]

I just find the attempt to relate Star Wars to more high-brow/erudite sources to always be a little...suspect, lets say. Obviously, there's some of that in there, but by and large, it plays like a B-movie, with the slight exception of The Empire Strikes Back and to a lesser extent Revenge of the Sith. And, unsurprisingly, when one really goes into what inspired George Lucas, it comes out overwhelmingly to be B-grade movies and picaresques, and mostly in its own genre of space opera/planetary romance/space fantasy.

 

I don't think that's demeaning: if anything, I think the attempt to make Star Wars seem very high-minded and literate is doing it a disservice.

[Schilkeman 969]

And I see no reason why it can't be, and isn't, both at the same time. But we are talking in circles again. Let's just agree to disagree. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

 

I don't know. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle on this. Yes, Lucas lies. Everyone knows that. He's probably not as well-read as he suggests. And his knowledge of "high-brow" literature, art, etc. is probably a mile-wide and an inch deep. Doesn't mean he wasn't influenced by those things, and that some of it didn't make its way into Star Wars.

 

The themes, characters and imagery in Star Wars, in 1977, touched people on a very personal level, and I just think there's more there than John Carter. Something genuinely profound, across the world actually, happened that year. The film changed lives...it's no mere 'b-movie', and IMO, doesn't play like one. 

 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what Lucas was trying to do, and I think attempts to deconstruct it, and break it down into its component parts doesn't necessarily lead to a greater understand of what's going on with the film.

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

I think the scope of Lucas' vision grew with the movies themselves. At first he dipped his big toe in established mythologies, be they pulpy or "highbrow", and as Star Wars took off and he realized that people were analyzing it for meaning, he got deeper into it and varied his reading more. But as to what is actually what, it's a muddy, murky Dagobah swamp for an art historian to wade and sift through.

 

As @Nick1Ø66 points out, these are movies that touched people's lives profoundly, and they probably don't like hearing it suggested that it's just a gussied-up B grade-inspired series interspersed with some fortune cookie philosophy. And some would prefer not to have Lucas "exposed" as a guy without a grand plan, and the curtain drawn back to reveal a bumbling wizard.

[Chen G. 3,965]

2 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

At first he dipped his big toe in established mythologies, be they pulpy or "highbrow", and as Star Wars took off and he realized that people were analyzing it for meaning, he got deeper into it and varied his reading more.

 

Not what my research would suggest: Throughout the entire series, the DNA of Burroughs, Smith, Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe, and to a lesser extent Richie, Herbert, Tolkien, Ford, Coppola and Bettelheim are appearant. That's not an accusation of plagiarism, mind you, nor - and this is where Nick's comment is very well taken - meant to shape the way people see the films. A film, much less a series, is not merely the sum of its influences. It should be understood from the experience of watching it, first and foremost.

 

But, by the same token, taking Lucas at his own word as to the high-mindedness of his endeavour and his influences, is likewise a trap, and one that, if used as the key to engaging with his films, would only make us miss the forest for the trees. Indeed, I think if someone had the misfortune of first hearing Lucas speak, and take his attempt to present himself as Joseph Campbell's high-priest at face value, and proceed to go into his film expecting some deep, scholarly meditation of the mythological phenomena and its psychological and cultural significance, they'd be disappointed.

 

In fact, HAD Lucas truly ever made a film like THAT, I think it would have in all likelihood been an extraordinarily unsuccesful and impenetrable work, and certainly one that wouldn't be as popular as Star Wars or Indiana Jones of whatever. A good example is the irony that, The Ewok Adventure notwithstanding, Star Wars is by FAR the most fairytale-like Star Wars film, even though Lucas discovered Bettelheim's writings on fairytales when most of the elements for the film were already in place; and when Lucas tried to very self-consciously channel Bettelheim in Return of the Jedi, it was mostly to the film's detriment. Indeed, the success of Star Wars compared to much of the prequel trilogy was that it was an unpresumptous adventure serial - what I call a "B-movie" - and NOT a sprawling, oft-gloomy, Machiavelian piece.

 

Sure, you can make parallels to the Pieta, or to Greek mythology or whatever, but there's a difference between making a poetic parallel, and saying its something Lucas had in mind and modelled his scenes around. Frankly, when I see Shmi expire in Anakin's arms - and by and large this is a scene I think is done quite well otherwise - I don't see Michaelangelo, I see a cartoon: "I lov..." *head drops*

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Sure, you can make parallels to the Pieta, or to Greek mythology or whatever, but there's a difference between making a poetic parallel, and saying its something Lucas had in mind and modelled his scenes around. Frankly, when I see Shmi expire in Anakin's arms, I don't see Michaelangelo, I see a cartoon: "I lov..." *head drops*

I love that movies can be open to interpretation, and frankly find it boring being told explicitly by the creators what everything means. We watch a movie through the lens of our own experiences and field(s) of knowledge, and they colour our perceptions. A religious person will perhaps see elements of religious symbolism; an art lover may see touches of Michelangelo; and someone with a liberal arts degree will see a lot of stuff! lol

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

 

(bump)

[Edmilson 7,498]

Don't know if this has been posted here, but there you go: there's a documentary coming out about the making of the Holiday Special.

 

Quote

A Disturbance in the Force is directed by Jeremy Coon & Steve Kozak and chronicles the making of the bizarre Star Wars Holiday Special that aired 45 years ago and never surfaced again, as well as a specific bygone era of 1970s event television. The documentary, which premiered at this year’s SXSW Film Festival, was released in select theaters last month by Giant Pictures and will be coming out on VOD and Blu-ray this coming Tuesday, December 5.

 

It also got a score album according to FMR (which is where I saw it):

 

https://filmmusicreporter.com/2023/12/04/a-disturbance-in-the-force-soundtrack-released/

[Brando 1,864]

48 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Don't know if this has been posted here, but there you go: there's a documentary coming out about the making of the Holiday Special.

 

 

It also got a score album according to FMR (which is where I saw it):

 

https://filmmusicreporter.com/2023/12/04/a-disturbance-in-the-force-soundtrack-released/

There's even a trailer for it:

 

[Chen G. 3,965]

Very interested to see what insight into the process of this film they can uncover. I've done a fair bit of research into it myself. I'm willing to bet good money George Lucas wrote this story outline.

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

I remember cracking up at this when it aired. It's lucky for "Triumph" that Star Wars fans are a gentle lot!

 

 

[Groovygoth666 681]

One thing I used to love about Star Wars fandom, and it's something that's seemingly been lost in the Disney era, is that the love of the franchise also allowed it to embrace the fun of it. With all the SNL sketches, the endless parodies in things like The Simpsons, Family Guy, Futurama and Robot Chicken, not to mention the endless online content such as Troops and the Star Wars Gangsta rap. Weird Al's The Saga Begins and so much more. It's also fun watching George Lucas taking part in these as well. Even in that video @Mr. Hooper shared, everyone is in good spirits and laughing at being called nerds. That first blu ray boxset with the extra disc of all these and other bits from pop culture will always be special to me because honestly how many other franchises would do that? Although things like The Holiday Special are becoming more embraced but is that just out of desperation from Lucasfilm? 

 

Today the fandom takes things a bit too seriously and I think this comes down to people being to quick/hard to defend it as well as criticise it. Making the fandom fractured. 

 

The sequel trilogy came from a need to make movies to capitalise on the investment Disney made. Not a want tell a story. For all their faults at least George tried something new with the Prequels but with the Sequels it was corporate, it was clinical in its creation. And now the fandom is broken, bickering and while it all comes from a place of love for the franchise it's really going to take something amazing to even begin fixing it and restoring that love of the fun side of what Star Wars used to be. 

 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

If you're looking for good Star Wars fandom vibes, you can still find them at a fan event like "Celebration", or if you're a cosplayer, by joining your local chapter of the 501st Legion, if there is one. But yeah, if we only look at social media it's easy to get the impression that the fandom is irretrievably broken.

 

Fans debating and disagreeing about Star Wars is of course nothing new, but it has taken on a certain, um, "unsavouriness" since the advent of YouTube channels that fan the flames of dissatisfaction by catering to the malcontent.

[Edmilson 7,498]

[greenturnedblue 372]

The Matt the radar technician skit was pretty funny though!

[Groovygoth666 681]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

If you're looking for good Star Wars fandom vibes, you can still find them at a fan event like "Celebration", or if you're a cosplayer, by joining your local chapter of the 501st Legion, if there is one.

I went to Celebration this year in London and there was nothing but love. Everyone was civil and watching people respect those that were in cosplay and giving people space to take photos together only reminds me of the community and how much people care for the franchise. But also the care and detail those in cosplay (of which there were many) had taking in creating their costumes. I have a Kylo Ren costume and my friend I went with was very supportive of me wearing it but it's not well insulated, so wearing it from where I live (an hours train journey outside of London plus travelling within London) I'd have be incredibly cold so gave it a miss this time. 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

But yeah, if we only look at social media it's easy to get the impression that the fandom is irretrievably broken.

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Fans debating and disagreeing about Star Wars is of course nothing new, but it has taken on a certain, um, "unsavouriness" since the advent of YouTube channels that fan the flames of dissatisfaction by catering to the malcontent.

It certainly has made it more difficult to know what the overall feeling of the fandom is. With the criticism being loud but the push back against it equally loud, both being standoffish and not willing to give any ground. I'll admit to having my own problems with the Disney era, but I'm always open to not only hearing but discussing with people that like it and want to hear what they have to say. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

1 hour ago, Groovygoth666 said:

I went to Celebration this year in London and there was nothing but love.

Awesome. I had the chance to go to Celebration Japan in 2008, and it was the same. Just good vibes.

 

1 hour ago, Groovygoth666 said:

It certainly has made it more difficult to know what the overall feeling of the fandom is. With the criticism being loud but the push back against it equally loud, both being standoffish and not willing to give any ground. 

Here's a specific and crazy example. I've seen tempers flare over which is better: the Child ("Baby Yoda") full-size replica from Sideshow Collectibles, or the one put out by Hot Toys. I mean, c'mon guys. And when you see that, it's not hard to understand why there's war in the world!

 

Anyway, the Sideshow one is better... 

[Groovygoth666 681]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Awesome. I had the chance to go to Celebration Japan in 2008, and it was the same. Just good vibes.

You lucky devil, definitely not jealous, nope not green with envy in the slightest. But glad to hear it was a similar experience. 

 

10 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Here's a specific and crazy example. I've seen tempers flare over which is better: the Child ("Baby Yoda") full-size replica from Sideshow Collectibles, or the one put out by Hot Toys. I mean, c'mon guys. And when you see that, it's not hard to understand why there's war in the world!

 

Anyway, the Sideshow one is better... 

Yep the fandom can be passionate, even if one side is objectively wrong 😂

[Schilkeman 969]

I was fortunate to catch the tail end of a mostly unified fandom in the late 90s. There was some grumbling about the special edition, but it didn’t really get bad until Episode I came out. Since then it’s been people arguing about the state and direction of the franchise. I try to only talk about the stuff I like (I’m not always successful). That seems to help me navigate the fandom, and avoid getting too upset over my issues with where Star Wars is right now. Much like Star Trek, I’m happy for people who love the new stuff. They’re going to get a lot of it.

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

That other music you identified with Star Wars as a kid...

 

 

 

[Tallguy 3,406]

4 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

That other music you identified with Star Wars as a kid...

 

 

 

 

I HATED that music SO much. Being 9 years old I didn't know why they didn't use the real music. I'm realizing now that it was stuff like this that literally taught me (and even made me interested in) WHY they didn't use the real music.

 

But that is a hell of a find.

[Brando 1,864]

8 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

That other music you identified with Star Wars as a kid...

 

 

 

I've never seen this before but now I'm bothered

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

 

"I'm Jawa, wanna buy a droid?"

"Gotcha Hammerhead!"

"You owe us money Han Solo!"

"Oh no Greedo, it's Ben Kenobi and his Lightsabre!"

"Oh no, it's a trash compactor!"

 

Better dialogue than the prequels.

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

5 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I HATED that music SO much.

And here I thought it would bring back some good memories for you! lol

 

1 hour ago, Brando said:

I've never seen this before but now I'm bothered

 

My apologies. I hope you can sleep well tonight in spite of it. 

 

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

"I'm Jawa, wanna buy a droid?"

"Gotcha Hammerhead!"

"You owe us money Han Solo!"

"Oh no Greedo, it's Ben Kenobi and his Lightsabre!"

"Oh no, it's a trash compactor!"

 

Better dialogue than the prequels.

[Tallguy 3,406]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

And here I thought it would bring back some good memories for you! lol

 

The memories are still good. Being a middle class 9 year old in the USA in 1978 was the best thing ever! (Being an adult probably sucked a bit.)

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

Like someone in the video's comments section said, when we heard that music we ran to the TV to see what the newest Star Wars toys were. For better or worse, it's imprinted on our brains.

[Tallguy 3,406]

47 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Like someone in the video's comments section said, when we heard that music we ran to the TV to see what the newest Star Wars toys were. For better or worse, it's imprinted on our brains.

 

Weird irrelevant thing: I always thought this melody sounded like Steve Miller's Swingtown. (Not that I knew who that was other than something that was on the radio a lot. I wouldn't really find out who this Billy Joel guy that was on the radio constantly until I was 15 in 1984.) So through the filter of 45 years I'm now surprised at how little I think it sounds the same now.

 

If this keeps up I'll tell the story (again) about how I totally misremembered how "Close the blast doors!" sounded even though it's on The Story of Star Wars!

[mstrox 6,654]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:00 PM, Groovygoth666 said:

One thing I used to love about Star Wars fandom, and it's something that's seemingly been lost in the Disney era, is that the love of the franchise also allowed it to embrace the fun of it. With all the SNL sketches, the endless parodies in things like The Simpsons, Family Guy, Futurama and Robot Chicken, not to mention the endless online content such as Troops and the Star Wars Gangsta rap. Weird Al's The Saga Begins and so much more. 

 

 

I don’t think that’s necessarily been lost in the Disney era - for instance, there was a very good Kylo Ren SNL sketch a few years back, and The Simpsons has released a handful of shorts.  I think the prequels and sequels (and spin-offs) didn’t get the same volume of parody love that the OT did just because, while they were all huge movies, they were never in the cultural zeitgeist like the OT.

[Jurassic Shark 12,112]

14 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

If this keeps up I'll tell the story (again) about how I totally misremembered how "Close the blast doors!" sounded even though it's on The Story of Star Wars!

 

You got me on the hook.

[Tallguy 3,406]

47 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

You got me on the hook.

 

If you insist...

 

So for 15+ years I noticed / complained that the home video / subsequent releases of Star Wars had "Open the blast doors!" but not "Close the blast doors!" (Not really ground breaking, I know.) The the SEs come out in 1997 and they put it back. And I thought "Well, cool. But it doesn't SOUND right!" I remembered it different.

Then over the years I go even farther down the Star Wars rabbit hole. And I find out about the Mono Mix. (ALL PRAISE THE MONO MIX!) And I discover that a) the earliest I could possibly have seen Star Wars would have been JULY (and very likely opening weekend where I lived). And that I almost certainly heard it in mono. And I ALSO realize that while I saw Star Wars four times in the theater (which was three times more than I had seen any movie in my life!) I LISTENED to the LP record The Story of Star Wars hundreds of times. And it's based on the Mono Mix. And it has "Close the blast doors!"

And it sounds exactly like the "wrong" sounding SE.

Which is crazy because until Star Wars came out on home video (and a little later when I was able to make an audio recording because we didn't have a VCR) the only way I had all that Star Wars dialogue memorized was that silly record. So how on Earth could I have remembered it wrong?!?

[Jurassic Shark 12,112]

That's an intriguing story.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,591]

On 09/12/2023 at 5:46 AM, greenturnedblue said:

The Matt the radar technician skit was pretty funny though!

 

I like UNDERCOVER BOSS: KYLO REN.

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's an intriguing story.

It's going to haunt me in bed tonight. How could he have remembered it wrong??

 

[Tallguy 3,406]

Well. It WAS a long time ago....

[Jurassic Shark 12,112]

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

1 minute ago, Tallguy said:

Well. It WAS a long time ago....

Yes, you misremembered it. Good. I can sleep tonight...

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

6 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

If you insist...

 

So for 15+ years I noticed / complained that the home video / subsequent releases of Star Wars had "Open the blast doors!" but not "Close the blast doors!" (Not really ground breaking, I know.) The the SEs come out in 1997 and they put it back. And I thought "Well, cool. But it doesn't SOUND right!" I remembered it different.

Then over the years I go even farther down the Star Wars rabbit hole. And I find out about the Mono Mix. (ALL PRAISE THE MONO MIX!) And I discover that a) the earliest I could possibly have seen Star Wars would have been JULY (and very likely opening weekend where I lived). And that I almost certainly heard it in mono. And I ALSO realize that while I saw Star Wars four times in the theater (which was three times more than I had seen any movie in my life!) I LISTENED to the LP record The Story of Star Wars hundreds of times. And it's based on the Mono Mix. And it has "Close the blast doors!"

And it sounds exactly like the "wrong" sounding SE.

Which is crazy because until Star Wars came out on home video (and a little later when I was able to make an audio recording because we didn't have a VCR) the only way I had all that Star Wars dialogue memorized was that silly record. So how on Earth could I have remembered it wrong?!?

 

That's nothing. I'll swear there were two grappling hook throws, and Luke missed the first one, 'till the day I die.

[Tallguy 3,406]

6 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

That's nothing. I'll swear there were two grappling hook throws, and Luke missed the first one, 'till the day I die.

 

I feel your pain.

[Mr. Hooper 1,822]

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I'll swear there were two grappling hook throws, and Luke missed the first one, 'till the day I die.

If there had been, there would've been endless discussion about how he needed two tries, but hit the Death Star's thermal exhaust port in one.

 

Anyway, didn't the sarlacc actually burp twice? Or maybe I just wanted it to?

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

If there had been, there would've been endless discussion about how he needed two tries, but hit the Death Star's thermal exhaust port in one.

But he did need two tries at thermal exhaust port. 🤷 

[Sweeping Strings 2,375]

6 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

If there had been, there would've been endless discussion about how he needed two tries, but hit the Death Star's thermal exhaust port in one.

 

Anyway, didn't the sarlacc actually burp twice? Or maybe I just wanted it to?

It probably did. Digesting its victims over a thousand years must bring on a LOT of burping. 

[Tallguy 3,406]

Man, good thing this was saved in the edit.

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

8 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Anyway, didn't the sarlacc actually burp twice?

 

The sarlacc always burps twice.

[Tom Guernsey 2,290]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

The sarlacc always burps twice.

The sarlaac postmen do anyway…

[Edmilson 7,498]

In some ways, the prequels make the original trilogy a little awkward...

 

 

Bonus:

[Chen G. 3,965]

Yeah. I doubt Lucas would have set out to redeem Vader had he already the massacres of the prequel trilogy in mind. Its not at all clear to me that Lucas had the massacre of the sand-children and sand-women until scripting Episode II.

[mstrox 6,654]

I would wager that he had the sand people slaughter in mind at least as of 1998/9, as the TPM novelization (which was written with input from George Lucas) includes a chapter about Anakin’s dealings with the sand people which reads in hindsight as big fat foreshadowing.