The Desolation of Smaug - Extended Edition Discussion

[publicist 4,643]

As someone who has only a faint memory of Tolkien i can assure you that the first two movies - SMAUG actually more so - just seem like an awful waste of time though i actually see Jackson struggle with his devil's pact and i think he at one point may have thought he could pull it off. But this stuff never really gels AT ALL and the few breathers where he makes some poetic detours - think of the little image with Bilbo appearing in a sea of golden leaves above the treetops - always made me go 'now more of this' before another idiotic carnival sequence took over.

The absolute worst though was the finale of SMAUG. After a rather moody sequence with the dragon it got to virtual video game level that is directed in such an insipid manner you would hope Jackson just handed that over to bunch of 15-year old animation interns because that this man has directed both this and the Moria sequence is hard to stomach.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I'm with Lord Stefan on this matter.

[KK 3,307]

Pub actually nails it on the head. On paper, the concept may have worked, but all these different ideas never "gel together", as he so aptly put it.

In the end, it really is a collection of LOTR leftovers.

PJ has always identified his films as big home videos with a massive budget. And it has never shown as much as it has with these films. It's like they shot their favourite scenes from the book and PJ's imagination, just because it'd be kinda fun, but those scenes and pieces never really come together wholly as an effective piece of film. They're there for the Tolkien fans, and the LotR fans, just because we have come to love these characters and stories so much that we are always interested in seeing it on the big screen. But objectively, as standalone films, they just don't work very well.

I love how Stefan has become the martyr of The Hobbit film lovers and likes to wear his crown of thorns like a badge of honor and moralize our criticism. It has become as tired as our entitled whining.

Amen.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

One issue is that PJ and his writers are prown to sudden idea changes and working on the fly.

But a story like this would work better if it had been more carefully planned in advance.

[KK 3,307]

Agreed. They did that more and more as LOTR progressed, but there was more rigorous planning involved in those films, so they pulled out of it quite fine.

With The Hobbit, it's clear they're all loving what they're doing, but I think PJ loses sense of the bigger picture when he works on these smaller setpieces.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I'm really warming up to the idea that it will be very possible to cut a single excellent film adaptation of Tolkien's book out of these three once it's all over.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Agreed. They did that more and more as LOTR progressed, but there was more rigorous planning involved in those films, so they pulled out of it quite fine.

With the exception of the Arwen story line, which was botched more or less.

[KK 3,307]

Pretty much.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I don't understand the "LotR leftovers" argument.

What's in the Hobbit that is left from LotR, that is not original Hobbit storyline? There are plenty of hommages, but that doesn't qualify as leftovers.

[KK 3,307]

Off the top of my head, things like:

- using Galadriel's ominous voice to establish background in narrative

- stock Middle-Earth dialogue like "It was all a dream, it cannot be...."

- expository flashbacks

- muting all sound to heighten emotional impact (he does it excessively in DoS)

- certain familiar character arcs (Alfrid is the new Wormtongue, Tauriel to an extent, Eowyn)

All of these things worked incredibly well in LOTR for their novelty. But he relies on that same bag of tricks here, and it does give the impression of "LOTR leftovers"

[gkgyver 1,645]

Off the top of my head, things like:

- using Galadriel's ominous voice to establish background in narrative

- stock Middle-Earth dialogue like "It was all a dream, it cannot be...."

- expository flashbacks

- muting all sound to heighten emotional impact (he does it excessively in DoS)

- certain familiar character arcs (Alfrid is the new Wormtongue, Tauriel to an extent, Eowyn)

All of these things worked incredibly well in LOTR for their novelty. But he relies on that same bag of tricks here, and it does give the impression of "LOTR leftovers"

The word leftover implies that there are things from LotR that could not be shown, that are squeezed into The Hobbit.

What you are describing is copying.

[publicist 4,643]

The word leftover implies exactly what it is: referencing, outright copying, scoring that tries to LOTR-ize small scenes into epic sweep and especially blatant: Orc-ing (meaning the beloved creatures populate the Hobbit-movies to a degree that seems desperate on part of the filmmakers)

[gkgyver 1,645]

Leftover doesn't imply copying.

Leftover is using something from a pile that wasn't used. Copying means making an exact replica of something that's already been used. If I had last night's pasta carbonara leftovers for lunch today, I wouldn't be copying last night's pasta because it's already there, I'm not making a fresh one.

A leftover from LotR would be telling the story of Tom Bombadil; copying is replicating the shot of the fellowship leaving Rivendell for the company leaving Rivendell in AUJ. One has nothing to do with the other. Should be clear.

The Hobbit is copying LotR occasionally, it's not leftovers.

[Bilbo 3,709]

gkgyver is right on this.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So is the DoS EE the first EE which actually shows different things happening then what we saw in the theatrical?

I mean usually context of existing scenes was changed because of the added new material, but all the Thrain stuff is not only new, it replaces existing scenes.

[Jay 37,364]

Your memory is bad!

FOTR EE has a new scene of The Fellowship talking with the elves of Lothlorien before they are brought to the king and queen; This replaces a completely different scene that was used in the theatrical.

There's also a shot of Frodo and Sam camping from the theatrical removed in the EE when the Passing of the Elves scene was added.

I'm sure there's more.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But the DoS shows a completely alternate "Gandalf in Dol Goldur" scene. It's not just new material. It's in some cases the same events going on, but with or without Thrain.

I dont think that has happened.

[Faleel 5,348]

ROTK does something similar with the "Denethor has lost his mind" bit and Merry getting up from underneath the Mumakil.

There are comparisons of the LOTR TE's vs. the LOTR EE's here (links potentially NSFW):

The Fellowship of the Ring (part 1), (part 2)
The Two Towers (part 1), (part 2)
The Return of the King (part 1), (part 2)

[oierem 152]

There's also a shot of Frodo and Sam camping from the theatrical removed in the EE when the Passing of the Elves scene was added.

A beautiful shot, by the way. Shame it was removed.

[Jay 37,364]

Yep.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I don't even remember that. I haven't watched the TEs since the EEs were released.

[Jay 37,364]

Next time you watch the FOTR TC, you'll be blown away by that shot and the alternate Lothlorien arrival since you haven't seen them in so long.

And some fun alternate music that got replaced by EE Inserts

[gkgyver 1,645]

I remember the theatrical Lothlorien entrance well because I love it. Don't remember the other stuff though.

The digitalised backdrop of the golden Caras Galadhon is amazing. In comparison, the Hobbit looks way too polished. But I have to say that the EE improves the film greatly.

[Jay 37,364]

According to this page, Benedict Cumberbatch did the voice of The Ring in DOS. Did anybody notice that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_in_film#Cast

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yes, when Bilbo is holding it in Beorn's house, during the cut to Dol Guldur, I believe. Pretty obvious.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yes. I immediately shouted "Hey, that's Sherlock's voice!" in the cinema when watching the film for the first time.

[Jay 37,364]

Maybe I just assumed that was The Necromancer talking.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It was.

They are one, the ring, and the dark lord.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

According to this page, Benedict Cumberbatch did the voice of The Ring in DOS. Did anybody notice that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_in_film#Cast

obvious...since the ring does not speak.. it is sauron...

Maybe I just assumed that was The Necromancer talking.

of course it is.

The ring doesnt have a voice of its own, i think.

[KK 3,307]

Has anyone watched the EE documentaries yet?

At the end of "Into Fire", there's a very funny folksy cover of the Laketown themes over the credits, full with banjos, fiddles and everything!

[Jay 37,364]

Wow, that sounds awesome!

I might be able to watch the music doc and some of the other stuff on Sunday

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

I imagine it's the same people that did the Thorin piano piece last year (and some new arrangements of the MM theme).

Exactly. I assume those were created specifically for the EE by either Plan 9 or Stephen Gallagher (who incidentally also composed the songs 'Blunt The Knives' and 'The Torture Song' for AUJ) and was vocal coaching and accompanying the dwarven actors for their songs.

[KK 3,307]

Yup! Nice to hear them playing around with Shore's themes though.

[Incanus 5,714]

Neat! I can't wait for the DoS EE! It will be released here on the 7th of November.

[Faleel 5,348]

Those little folk "remixes" from AUJ made a nice ending for the bonus section of my AUJ edit

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

Just watched the extended edition recently. My jaw dropped when Alfrid approached the Master with the declaration "Bollocks!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the first instance of profanity in a Middle-earth film since the scene in The Two Towers where Arwen calls Aragorn a fuckbrained cuntstick.

[Jay 37,364]

In what world is bollocks considered profanity?

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

This one.

[Jay 37,364]

Any other thoughts on the EE, Gloin?

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

Mainly that it really doesn't feel to me as though there are an extra twenty-five minutes in there! The Fellowship of the Ring was extended by just a little more than that (and by a smaller proportion of its original length, in fact) and yet I always felt that the extension had a significant impact on the film; with The Desolation of Smaug it feels like a bit of tweaking here and there. I don't recall anything that I particularly disliked among the extended scenes, so I'll opt for the longer cut over the shorter one given the choice. The major new contribution was the Thráin material, which added some much-needed flavour to the Dol Guldur scenes; I found them rather redundant before.

[Jay 37,364]

Yea, it's clearly the superior cut. Take out the Master eating gross food and Thrain having a Wilhelm scream and it's perfect. A lot of things make more sense and the world feels bigger

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

I missed the Wilhelm scream.

[Jay 37,364]

You're lucky.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Fellowship isn't 25 minutes longer in extended form, but 15 as I recall. Two Towers is 30 minutes longer.

[Jay 37,364]

You are completely wrong on both counts.

FOTR EE is 30 minutes longer than FOTR TC

TTT EE is 45 mminutes longer than TTT TC.

No idea what you're thinking.

[Barnald 365]

I watched DoS (EE) again tonight. It's actually a great film IMO bar the healing shit and Kili/Tauriel scene thereafter. I can even put up with the Feast of Starlight scene ahead of those. I've also tried to become more tolerant of Legolas' shit since I know it's going to seem like nothing compared to what's to come. And I give the barrel ride a pass anyone due to the music for that part.

But the more I watch the more the dialling out stands out. The spider scene still not so much for me, but the barrel race and the Smaug scenes absolutely. PJ's increasing penchant for silence during action scenes is both concerning and baffling. Christ knows what to expect for BOTFA

[MedigoScan 324]

the worst dialling out is right in the middle of the dwarves charging back out to face Smaug

it could have been that movie's Bridge of Doom moment, but nooooo

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

These three films are essentially told in flachback, right? Because of Bilbo writing down this story in the beginning.

So that means that the extended prologue of DoS is a flashback within a flashback...within a flashback!

[Jay 37,364]

Yup!