Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 7 hours ago, Thor said: Thanks! I'm guessing 'a lot of reasons' also encompass Wagner's political beliefs. It certainly sounds like he means to include that aspect in his statement, also the way he phrases it: "not a particular fan of his". And the Ring is certainly not the most accessible of musical works; it becomes much more rewarding with repeated listening, and understanding the lyrics certainly helps make sense of the leitmotif and the overall "plan" (it is a very philosophical construct, after all). As has been mentioned, Williams rarely sounds like actual Wagner. I'd be more surprised if he contested that Strauss had a significant influence on his music, directly or indirectly, see the Korngold quote. As far as the Viennese divide goes, Korngold was of course a peculiar case, as his father was a successor of Hanslick at the Neue Freie Presse (suggested by Brahms, no less), and acted in similarly absolute ways to lobby for his son. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,369 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Apart from the ride of the Valkyrie I never managed to keep any Wagner tune in my head for more than 30 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Korngold succeeded HANSLICK? I sure hope he was a better critic than that cretin.😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 17 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: Apart from the ride of the Valkyrie I never managed to keep any Wagner tune in my head for more than 30 seconds. The opening with the Rhine music? The renounciation of love? The Valhalla motif? The crescendo of the Walsung motif when Siegfrid dies? And that's just in the Ring cycle. Wagner was one hell of a tunesmith. Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Hans Zimmer sounds more like Wagner than Williams ever did. Though Frankfurt is certainly closer to Dresden than Hollywood. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, publicist said: Hans Zimmer sounds more like Wagner than Williams ever did Yeah, I contemplated pointing this out, but some poor bugger will have no doubt conflated "sounds more like Wagner" to "holds a candle to Wagner", which would be bordering on heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Youtube comments suggest otherwise. He's better! Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 23 minutes ago, Chen G. said: The opening with the Rhine music? The renounciation of love? The Valhalla motif? The crescendo of the Walsung motif when Siegfrid dies? And that's just in the Ring cycle. Wagner was one hell of a tunesmith. The Walsung motif still is one of my all time favorite melodies. Spine tingling stuff Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 One of the all-time great crescendi, too. Shameful that Wagner isn't played in my country. Romão 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Chen G. said: One of the all-time great crescendos, too. Oh yes. Nobility and tragedy and sense of loss. It is stunning Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,369 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 43 minutes ago, publicist said: Hans Zimmer sounds more like Wagner than Williams ever did. Though Frankfurt is certainly closer to Dresden than Hollywood. Probably that's why. I also never recognize melodies in Zimmer's music. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 He means that Zimmer is akin to Wagner in terms of sound, which is quite right. Wagner's own writing is as melodious as they come. The underscore to something like the Ring is often telling every gesture in the action and every undercurrent in the drama with its leitmotives. Its a wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Korngold’s 1927 opera ‘Das Wunder der Heliane’ is essentially post-Wagnerian and the blueprint for his Hollywood scores. It’s really a gargantuan film score written in a time when film didn’t even exist. So yeah, I think it’s mainly Korngold who is the link between Wagner and Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Chen G. said: One of the all-time great crescendi, too. Shameful that Wagner isn't played in my country. Still?! Oy gevalt! Btw Leonard Bernstein hated the use of leitmotives in Hollywood#😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, bruce marshall said: Still?! Oy gevalt! Yes. There's a rhetoric of "well, its offensive to Holocause survivors so we'll wait for the last of those to die out, and then we'll talk about it." You'd think the same would apply to Strauss, who actually wrote under the Nazi regime, and not Wagner who was long dead at the time, but alas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Blues 65 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Comparing John to Bach is a stretch. He's more Wagner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 57 minutes ago, Remco said: Korngold’s 1927 opera ‘Das Wunder der Heliane’ is essentially post-Wagnerian and the blueprint for his Hollywood scores. It’s really a gargantuan film score written in a time when film didn’t even exist. So yeah, I think it’s mainly Korngold who is the link between Wagner and Williams. Even Korngold is often a fusion of Strauss and Puccini more than directly related to Wagner though. 30 minutes ago, Chen G. said: You'd think the same would apply to Strauss, who actually wrote under the Nazi regime, and not Wagner who was long dead at the time, but alas... Wagner certainly was ideologically closer though. Strauss was probably too opportunistic, and generally too apolitical (which you certainly can't say about Wagner), but at least he tried to protect and defend his Jewish collaborators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: Wagner certainly was ideologically closer though. Wagner was an antisemite, yes; although not of the fascist brand being that fascism didn't exist until long after his time. I bet you could find a ton of classical composers who were antisemitic, and it wouldn't have stopped anyone in my country from putting their music on the concert stage. But when it comes to Wagner, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: Even Korngold is often a fusion of Strauss and Puccini more than directly related to Wagner though. True, but then there’s also the link through Strauss to Wagner, and Korngold did openly adore Wagner’s music if I recall correctly. I don’t think any Austro-German composer escaped his influence at the time. Marian Schedenig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Chen G. said: Wagner was an antisemite, yes; although not of the fascist brand being that fascism didn't exist until long after his time. I bet you could find a ton of classical composers who were antisemites, and it wouldn't have stopped anyone in my country from putting their music on the concert stage. But when it comes to Wagner, though... Possibly. But it certainly seems like Wagner went out of his way more than most in propagating it, and also including it in his work. See the ending of Meistersinger, for example. Not that it would necessarily be out of the ordinary in the time it was set in, but knowing Wagner, surely any contemporary connotations are no coincidence. Add to that that the Wagner family was very supportive of Hitler (for which you can't hold him directly responsible, but as we've pointed out you can trace at least some of it back to him) and you definitely have an unusually obvious case. On the other hand, perhaps Bruckner was lucky in not having any offspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: also including it in his work. See the ending of Meistersinger, for example. I need to revisit Meistersinger. I don't recall it being overtly antisemitic; people have accused Alberich of being an antisemitic stereotype, but it was never that overt to me, either. He's a Dwarf almost straight out of Norse myth. *paging David Lean's Oliver Twist* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Chen G. said: Yes. There's a rhetoric of "well, its offensive to Holocause survivors so we'll wait for the last of those to die out, and then we'll talk about it." You'd think the same would apply to Strauss, who actually wrote under the Nazi regime, and not Wagner who was long dead at the time, but alas... And both closely collaborated with Jewish musicians! When I was studying the Romantic Era in college, my professor asked the class why Wagner was so controversial. I was the only one who raised his hand. There can be no doubt that Wagner helped so the seeds of German nationalism and emit- semitism that would flower decades later. But, he never killed anybody and can't be directly accused of anything beyond hateful bigotry. Strauss tried to reclaim his royalties after WWII, from Allied nations. And, glorified the Nietzche " ubermensch " in his famous tone poem. And, isn't there a famous poet who was actually jailed during the war for supporting Nazism? Iirc he is still taught in poetry classes: Ezra Pound. Chen G., Bayesian and Romão 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 24, 2020 44 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I need to revisit Meistersinger. I don't recall it being overtly antisemitic; people have accused Alberich of being an antisemitic stereotype, but it was never that overt to me, either. He's a Dwarf almost straight out of Norse myth. Meistersinger has the (in)famous final speech by Hans Sachs that's in part excessively nationalistic (as is the finale of Lohengrin, for that matter). That's obviously not so unusual for Wagner's time, but all the same was a major contributing factor to the 20th century's early catastrophes, and Wagner so strongly emphasising it as part of his "final message" of the opera is at the very least not quite kosher. I believe it is sometimes shortened for performances by excising a verse. Here's Wikipedia's translation: Quote Beware! Evil tricks threaten us; if the German people and kingdom should one day decay, under a false, foreign1 rule, soon no prince would understand his people; and foreign mists with foreign vanities they would plant in our German land; what is German and true none would know, if it did not live in the honour of German masters. Therefore I say to you: honour your German masters, then you will conjure up good spirits! And if you favour their endeavours, even if the Holy Roman Empire should dissolve in mist, for us there would yet remain holy German Art!1 The word translated here as "foreign" ("welsch") is a catch-all term denoting "French and/or Italian." Wagner here referred to the court of Frederick the Great, where French rather than German was spoken. Where it gets complicated of course is that the same speech also contains artistically admirable sentiments that sum up the theme of the entire opera: The conflict between the conservative old masters who view anything new as entirely wrong and harmful and the youthful Walther von Stolzing who completely rejects their rules and wisdom without understanding it. Sachs, who alone of the Meistersinger has been supportive of Walther's free spirit and bending (or rather ignorantly breaking) of the rules, now admonishes him to heed their wisdom. A portion of the speech ("Ehrt eure deutschen Meister, dann bannt ihr gute Geister" - "Honour your German masters, then you will conjure up good spirits") even graces the facade of Vienna's Konzerthaus: Fabulin, Chen G. and Romão 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Okay, so very nationalistic, but not fascist nor antisemitic in any way. Fine by me. There's probably more of an issue by way of modern sensibilities to be had with the Rhinemaidens "being faithful to whoever grasps us by force" bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Okay, so very nationalistic, but not fascist nor antisemitic in any way. Fine by me. There's probably more of an issue by way of modern sensibilities to be had with the Rhinemaidens "being faithful to whoever grasps us by force" bit. I find the Rheinmaidens refreshingly witty. Wagner knew how to write for female voices. And that laughing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Albus Percival Wulfric said: I find the Rheinmaiden refreshingly witty. They certainly are that. Wagner doesn't always get enough credit as a Librettist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Okay, so very nationalistic, but not fascist nor antisemitic in any way. Fine by me. There's probably more of an issue by way of modern sensibilities to be had with the Rhinemaidens "being faithful to whoever grasps us by force" bit. Very nationalistic in an aggressive way that brands anything non-German as inferior and to be resisted and fought. It was certainly a common sentiment at the time and looks much different in hindsight, but then that's the point, isn't it? One thing led to another, and the roots of the 20th century were already there (and had been, in part, for centuries) in, in retrospect, plain view. Pointing that out and discussing it is, I think, important, especially at a time when "who could have possibly known" is still a common sentiment in countries like Austria and when people refuse to see similar contemporary tendencies for what they are. Which isn't to say that I'm in favour of banning Wagner (I'm not). But I can appreciate the sentiment of feeling uncomfortable about him and some of his artistic output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,913 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Harry Irene said: Comparing John to Bach is a stretch. He's more Wagner. lol, some consider Wagner a superior cult figure. I'm currently reading Wagnerism about his substantial and unprecedented impact on music and beyond. https://www.amazon.com/Wagnerism-Art-Politics-Shadow-Music/dp/0374285934 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Marian Schedenig said: I can appreciate the sentiment of feeling uncomfortable about him and some of his artistic output. Oh, me too. Marian Schedenig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 32 minutes ago, karelm said: lol, some consider Wagner a superior cult figure. I'm currently reading Wagnerism about his substantial and unprecedented impact on music and beyond. https://www.amazon.com/Wagnerism-Art-Politics-Shadow-Music/dp/0374285934 I have that on reserve! Check out the Stephen Fry documentary on his conflicted passion ( he is Jewish) for THE RING etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, bruce marshall said: Check out the Stephen Fry documentary on his conflicted passion ( he is Jewish) for THE RING etc I've long had this on my to-watch list. It doesn't exist in HD, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Another good doc is WAGNER'S Jews..According to the film, German Jews were his biggest ' fans'. And, of course his favorite conductor, who conducted the Christian epic PARSIFAL. GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Fans of either the Force theme or Crimson Tide, here comes daddy! There is a Dick Burton series from the early 80's that's entertaining enough and helps you to understand the troubled political history of a then-torn Germany. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I've seen that mini series. Last I looked, it was oop. In its own crackpot way, LISZTOMANIA presents an insightful, if allegorical, portrait of Wagner and his followers ( Cosima. Von Bulow). It's often said that racism is a disease. I agree with that assessment. If you read Wagner's deranged writings on Jews, you can tell this is a person with a mental sickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I've always wanted to see that mini series with Burton. I absolutely adore Wagner's instrumental music (not too keen on the opera singing, as I have a problem with that in general), and also have no issues separating that from his political and philosophical leanings. I also have to say that there is far more Wagner in Williams' music than there is Bach -- per this topic title. Whether Williams acknowledges it or not. In fact, Bach -- with his cold, stringent style -- is often the opposite of Williams. blondheim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Thor said: I also have to say that there is far more Wagner in Williams' music than there is Bach -- per this topic title. Whether Williams acknowledges it or not. In fact, Bach -- with his cold, stringent style -- is often the opposite of Williams. This is what I meant by the word rigid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Bach isn't cold though, just not sappy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I think people say cold because the music is so mathematical and math is cold. It is why we say cold, hard truth. Not that all truths are cold, just the concept of it being inarguable, I think. Romantic music is more inclined to find perfection through imperfection. But then of course, there's Brahms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 593 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 The words "sappy" and "cold" in the same sentence with "Bach" is really ridiculous. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, blondheim said: I think people say cold because the music is so mathematical and math is cold. Math isn't cold. It's beautiful. Just now, Steve said: The words "sappy" and "cold" in the same sentence with "Bach" is really ridiculous. I said NOT sappy. 3 minutes ago, blondheim said: But then of course, there's Brahms. What about him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 593 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I said NOT sappy. I know But some here seem to think so here. BTW: Did Johnny ever mention Händel in an interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Math isn't cold. It's beautiful. What about him? I didn't say it wasn't. Although 'is' and 'isn't' feel out of a place in a conversation about the temperature of math. (I find Brahms to be the most mathematical and tight of all the Romantic-period composers I am familiar with. Not un-romantic, but coloring inside the lines.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Has cold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 200 years from now, people might be asking is such and such the John Williams of our time? We should simply rest in the fact that we are in real time with Williams. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Nobody is saying that mathematical precision can't be beautiful or moving. I'm very moved by a lot of Bach's music. Just not in the same way I'm moved by a piece of Williams music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 The topic doesn't refer to musical style of the composers, it refers to their stature and status. Fyi Bach was revered by COMPOSERS of the Romantic era. Liszt and of course Mendelsohnn who single handedly restored his reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, bruce marshall said: The topic doesn't refer to musical style of the composers, it refers to their stature and status. How would we know that? Zero reasoning is given for the conclusions drawn. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Well, Bes, who created the topic, is a strong supporter of zero reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, blondheim said: How would we know that? Zero reasoning is given for the conclusions drawn. How?.. Hey man, I've been PUBLISHED! 😝😜😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I've frequently heard comments by musicians about how much jazz there is in Bach. In that regard, he might be closer to Williams than Wagner is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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