Which of Williams themes would deserve an own Theme Suite (but hasn't yet)

[Tydirium 1,167]

Willie’s theme

[artguy360 1,844]

As everyone has already said, the Force theme should have a concert arrangement by now. The closest thing we have is Throne Room and finale from ANH where we get Ben's theme first in a powerful march and then in a very concert-like performance. Those two parts could serve as building blocks of a proper concert arrangement or fan edit.

[Chen G. 3,951]

Quote

Those two parts could serve as building blocks of a proper concert arrangement or fan edit.

 

See, to me the best concert pieces are ones that are more then souped-up film cues: stuff like Leia's Theme or the Imperial March. Alas that Williams never made such a piece for this incredibly important theme.

 

On 06/07/2023 at 4:07 AM, Tom Guernsey said:

As I've mentioned before, I would consider the Force Theme to be the "main" Star Wars theme and perhaps a better musical summation of the spirit of the series (particularly the mysticism of the Jedi) than the actual main theme which is much more straightforwardly upbeat (brilliant though it is).

 

Oh, absolutely.

[Tom Guernsey 2,287]

On 06/07/2023 at 9:50 AM, GerateWohl said:

Hm. I am not sure about that. Yes, in case of CE3K it worked out well. But very often such tone poems suffer from many inevitable omissions. Mentioning E.T., the concert suite of Adventures on Earth always goes on my nerves as I consider the original version really as perfect. And this change the order of parts or even just cutting them in the middle for time reasons hardly ever work out for me. Last example is listening to some of the suites on the recent DG album of Joe Hisaishi's Studio Ghibli suites. Same thing here.

Sometimes it works out well like Williams' concert arrangement for Dartmoor 1912, where he merges the opening with the finale or the DE3K suite. Also his Far and Away suite, that he played in Berlin is great. But it can badly fail sometimes.

I agree that such tone poem type arrangements would inevitably require hard choices and I certainly wouldn't suggest that every JW score would work for that kind of treatment. For ET, the OST is almost a 40 minute tone poem of the score as it stands. For a lengthened musical narrative, you could skip the two existing concert arrangements Flying and Over the Moon* and  some connective musical could connect the rest for a seamless musical narrative (plus a bit of other re-writing/editing here and there**), you could end up with a terrific 30 minutes that tells the story very effectively in music. 

 

*I know some of the other tracks are slightly different to their film counterparts and there is the more recent concert arrangement, Stargazers, but these are adapted film cues that still form part of the musical narrative rather than concert arrangements written specifically to be performed separately.

 

**You could probably skip the first third of Adventures of Earth (it's great, but less interesting and visceral than the bike chase) and you'd be down to under half an hour. However, totally agreed about the existing concert suite. Always amuses me that JW often talks about that cue and says about the moment that "ET and his little friends on their bikes fly" but fails to mention (or forgets) that he cut that very moment out!

[Jay 37,374]

On 28/06/2023 at 3:44 AM, GerateWohl said:

I am quite sure that this is a dedicated OST arrangement

 

The original cue title for what's called "Jazz Autographs" on the OST is "End Credits Part II", fwiw. 

 

On 31/07/2017 at 12:58 PM, Jay said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11z6EfZepoLn-vuSoDnE17u0HZjMiChi_Tokh4c05_Zw/pubhtml

[Faleel 5,364]

On 08/07/2023 at 4:38 AM, artguy360 said:

As everyone has already said, the Force theme should have a concert arrangement by now. The closest thing we have is Throne Room and finale from ANH where we get Ben's theme first in a powerful march and then in a very concert-like performance. Those two parts could serve as building blocks of a proper concert arrangement or fan edit.

May the Force be with You.

 

 

[MikePetersen 8]

Two possibilities spring to mind: 

 

1) A concert suite for R2 & 3PO, using ideas from each of the themes he wrote for each of the films. Droid music from ANH, segue into droid music from ESB, into droid music from ROTJ, and maybe even a lick from the meeting of the droids from TPM. 

 

2) Lost in Space - a distillation of the 4 scores he wrote for the original series. Wouldn't even need the main titles, just the scores themselves, from Reluctant Stowaway, Island in the Sky, The Hungry Sea, and My Friend Mr. Nobody.

[Demodex 557]

On 06/08/2023 at 8:49 AM, MikePetersen said:

Droid music from ANH, segue into droid music from ESB, into droid music from ROTJ

 

First, what droid music in ANH are you talking about?  I didn't know there was any. 

Second, isn't the Droid motif in ESB the same as ROTJ's?

[Jay 37,374]

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

First, what droid music in ANH are you talking about? 

 

Maybe the music for R2 with the Jawas? 

 

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

Second, isn't the Droid motif in ESB the same as ROTJ's?

 

Nope! 

[Demodex 557]

I've never heard of there being a different one in ROTJ.  I missed that somehow!

[Faleel 5,364]

24 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Maybe the music for R2 with the Jawas?

Could also be that short bit in Millennium Falcon/Imperial Cruiser Pursuit

 

Or the escape Pod music...

[QuartalHarmony 543]

11 hours ago, Demodex said:

I've never heard of there being a different one in ROTJ.  I missed that somehow!

It’s really just the short woodwind music as R2 and 3PO are approaching Jabba’s Palace at the beginning. It is similar to the droid theme that occurs several times in ESB, but definitely not the same. As far as I can tell, the ROTJ droid theme is only used exactly once in the film.

 

I’ve never worked out why he didn’t reuse the (excellent) theme from ESB at all in ROTJ. Or in the PT, for that matter. It’s quite out of character for him.

 

Mark

[Jay 37,374]

He kinda forgot the droids already had a theme

[Holko 9,532]

50 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

I’ve never worked out why he didn’t reuse the (excellent) theme from ESB at all in ROTJ. Or in the PT, for that matter. It’s quite out of character for him.

Yeah, he never abandons themes like the SW Imperial Theme

Hogwarts Forever in HP2

most of the other themes in HP3

Raiders nazi theme(s) in Last Crusade

probably some in Jaws 2

[GerateWohl 4,378]

Leia already had a different theme related to her in the first three movies (Princess Leia's Theme, Han Solo and the Princess, Luke and Leia). So, why not the droids as well?

[QuartalHarmony 543]

Because the latter two are not themes for Leia in her own right, but for relationships that she is half of.

 

Given how he quotes Yoda’s theme in ET, the Ark’s theme in Last Crusade, the Orca theme in Jaws 2, the Emperor’s theme in the PT, it is so unlike him to forget a theme. He’s far too much of a craftsman to be so forgetful.
 

In fact, how many other examples are there of occasions when he could have quoted a theme but didn’t?

[Demodex 557]

47 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

In fact, how many other examples are there of occasions when he could have quoted a theme but didn’t

 

Luke and Leia's theme should have been in ROTS when they were freaking being born!

[Holko 9,532]

48 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Because the latter two are not themes for Leia in her own right, but for relationships that she is half of.

And the first is not a theme for her but Luke's idealised picture and preconceptions of her.

[Demodex 557]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

And the first is not a theme for her but Luke's idealised picture and preconceptions of her.

 

Is this stated somewhere?  I would definitely argue that it's a theme for her. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

3 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

It’s really just the short woodwind music as R2 and 3PO are approaching Jabba’s Palace at the beginning.

 

That's actually a droid-y statement of Jabba's B-Theme.

[Demodex 557]

1 minute ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

That's actually a droid-y statement of Jabba's B-Theme.

 

I have to listen to that again!

 

I always thought the ESB droid theme appeared during their time on Endor, maybe when C-3P0 calls out to the stormtroopers before the big battle?

Or during the battle?  I'm not sure. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

I only regularly listen to TPM, ANH, and ESB, so I wouldn't be the guy to talk to regarding that.

[GerateWohl 4,378]

1 hour ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Because the latter two are not themes for Leia in her own right, but for relationships that she is half of.

 

Given how he quotes Yoda’s theme in ET, the Ark’s theme in Last Crusade, the Orca theme in Jaws 2, the Emperor’s theme in the PT, it is so unlike him to forget a theme. He’s far too much of a craftsman to be so forgetful.
 

In fact, how many other examples are there of occasions when he could have quoted a theme but didn’t?

Yes, you can see it that way. But Williams could have easily reused Leia's theme for that purpose in all three movies, at least in the first two, as a love theme. There was not really a need to write new themes, even though Williams did. But for each of the three different story arks he chose to write a different theme. Another example, Vader has a different theme in episode 4 than in episode 5. These things change, depending on the story and the musical identity of the movie.

 

[QuartalHarmony 543]

OK, but I’ve never noticed R2 and 3PO going through any sort of character arc, so why would they need a new theme? 

 

As for the Jabba B-theme theory… I suppose it’s possible. Will need to listen more carefully to the two side by side when I get chance.

 

As for the dropped Imperial theme from ANH, I’ve always thought that JW was never quite satisfied with it, hence why he started again from scratch in ESB. Having written something which was clearly much better, he then reused it freely afterwards and quite rightly too. Since I think he’s too good to forget he’d written a droid theme, it makes most sense to me that he just wasn’t that keen on it so never reused it. My only evidence for any of this is circumstantial, I admit!

[GerateWohl 4,378]

But apart from the little rebel fanfare the rebel music or X-Wing music is different in every of the OT movies. If you search, you probably could find something, that you could call the X-Wing motif and I don't mean the rebel fanfare.

Also the victory moments in each of the first three movies has different music.

I don't say, that you are wrong. Williams might have forgotten the droid theme from Empire. I just mean, it might be that the "droid theme" from empire was for him only connected to Empire and he didn't write it as a droid theme but as music for that particular situation. There is always music specific for one movie and music used across movies. This one might not belong to that.

[Holko 9,532]

26 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Since I think he’s too good to forget he’d written a droid theme, it makes most sense to me that he just wasn’t that keen on it

Then he wouldn't have put it all over the score in fun variations!

[QuartalHarmony 543]

And all those variations surely makes it even less likely he’d ‘just forget’ it, which is what makes this whole issue all the weirder! It’s a bit like the use of Yoda’s theme in the Bespin chase scenes - it really doesn’t make sense and all I’ve ever heard are outlandish theories (trying to connect Yoda thematically with the situation) or Just-So stories (he did it because he wanted to).

 

We’ll likely never know for certain in either case.

 

Mark

[Faleel 5,364]

57 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

But apart from the little rebel fanfare the rebel music or X-Wing music is different in every of the OT movies. If you search, you probably could find something, that you could call the X-Wing motif and I don't mean the rebel fanfare.

Also the victory moments in each of the first three movies has different music.

I don't say, that you are wrong. Williams might have forgotten the droid theme from Empire. I just mean, it might be that the "droid theme" from empire was for him only connected to Empire and he didn't write it as a droid theme but as music for that particular situation. There is always music specific for one movie and music used across movies. This one might not belong to that.

But he brought back the Throne Room music in Jedi!

[GerateWohl 4,378]

39 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

And all those variations surely makes it even less likely he’d ‘just forget’ it, which is what makes this whole issue all the weirder! It’s a bit like the use of Yoda’s theme in the Bespin chase scenes - it really doesn’t make sense and all I’ve ever heard are outlandish theories (trying to connect Yoda thematically with the situation) or Just-So stories (he did it because he wanted to).

 

We’ll likely never know for certain in either case.

 

Mark

And why does Leia's theme play at Ben Kenobi's death in A New Hope?

 

33 minutes ago, Signals said:

But he brought back the Throne Room music in Jedi!

Because he liked it so much.

[Jay 37,374]

3 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

Is this stated somewhere?  I would definitely argue that it's a theme for her. 

 

Williams has said as much in concerts.  He wrote it as a love theme because when making the first film, she was a love interest.  George didn't decide to make her his sister until after ESB

[Demodex 557]

6 hours ago, Signals said:

But he brought back the Throne Room music in Jedi!

 

What Throne Room music??

[Faleel 5,364]

4 minutes ago, Demodex said:

 

What Throne Room music??

0:55

 

0:56

6 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

And why does Leia's theme play at Ben Kenobi's death in A New Hope?

Because Leia's "only hope" died.

[Demodex 557]

I'm really confused.  I still don't hear the Throne Room in that clip from ROTJ

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

11 hours ago, Jay said:

He kinda forgot the droids already had a theme

 

George didn't tell him that they're brothers, so he had to write them a new theme (the one in ESB was too much of a love theme).

 

1 minute ago, Demodex said:

I'm really confused.  I still don't hear the Throne Room in that clip from ROTJ

 

The syncopated figure that plays at the timestamp is a variation of the Walton theme from Throne Room.

[Demodex 557]

The Walton theme?  I've never heard of that. 

[Faleel 5,364]

2 minutes ago, Demodex said:

The Walton theme?  I've never heard of that. 

Part of the Throne Room track sounds like the music of composer William Walton

[Jay 37,374]

7 hours ago, Signals said:

But he brought back the Throne Room music in Jedi!

 

I still remembering learning that via reading Lukas Kendall's liner notes in the 1993 2-CD set

 

26 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I'm really confused.  I still don't hear the Throne Room in that clip from ROTJ

 

[Faleel 5,364]

@Jay Was it in the Kendall 1993 notes? I know it was in Mattesino's 1997' 2-CD set notes.

[Jay 37,374]

Hmm, I thought so. I'm not at home to check 

[KittBash 282]

9 hours ago, Signals said:

@Jay Was it in the Kendall 1993 notes? I know it was in Mattesino's 1997' 2-CD set notes.

 

9 hours ago, Jay said:

Hmm, I thought so. I'm not at home to check 

 

 

Maybe I can help here. 

 

It does not appear to be mentioned in the notes for the Anthology set by Lukas

 

Quote

"3 HEROIC EWOK / THE FLEET GOES INTO HYPERSPACE RETURN OF THE JEDI): We zip forward to ledi as Han and his strike team, assisted by Ewok guides, have approached a back door of the shield generator bunker on Endor, guarded by four biker scouts. The music begins fairly low-key, but the Ewok theme soon emerges as one of the Ewoks. Paploo, steals a speeder bike, leading three of the four scouts away in pursuit. The Playful Ewok music continues, often on high woodwinds to avoid conflicting with the film's sound effects, as Paploo takes the scouts on a wild goose chase through the forest before escaping on a vine. Back at the generator, Han and company easily capture the remaining scout and proceed inside the bunker. In the film, the music then goes to "The Emperor Confronts Luke" (disc three, track 10), but here we segue to the music accompanying the Rebel fleet’s launch into hyperspace, which in the film takes place immediately before "Heroic Ewok." This is a short but rapid-fire piece spotlighting more ferocious brass runs as the Rebel ships, led by Lando in the Falcon, assemble for their lightspeed jaunt to Endor."

 

But @Signals and @Jay memories are correct it is mentioned by Mike in the 97 notes

 

Quote

"FLEET ENTERS HYPERSPACE (3), heard as Han, Chewie, and Leia plan their strike on the Imperial base, The Ewok theme returns as Threepio is informed of a secret entrance, which leads to a grand trumpet arpeggio as, back at the Rebel armada, the snub fighters take flight led by Lando Calrissian. In the Millennium Falcon, Williams incorporates the "throne room" motif from the final scene of STAR WARS as Lando leads the fleet into hyperspace."

 

 

[Jay 37,374]

Thanks, so my memory was just shuffled a bit

[Chen G. 3,951]

18 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

t’s a bit like the use of Yoda’s theme in the Bespin chase scenes - it really doesn’t make sense and all I’ve ever heard are outlandish theories (trying to connect Yoda thematically with the situation) or Just-So stories (he did it because he wanted to).

 

There's, I would say, some "out there" use of a theme in practically once or twice in every Star Wars (or every Williams?) score, from the theme associated with Leia for Ben's death, the theme connected to Yoda all over the chase in Bespin as you say, Duel of the Fates for Anakin roaming Tattooine, the so-called "Death Star Motive" in The Last Jedi, practically the entire victory celebrations piece in The Rise of Skywalker...

 

I think ultimately the best explanation is that it just sounded right. Williams said so explicitly of the instance from the original Star Wars. Its done sparingly enough that it doesn't really hurt the musico-dramatic throughline. It happens in the Ring cycle (the prototype for this kind of scoring), too. I've never heard a convincing explanation for why there are reminsicences of the magic helmet when Waltraute tells Brunnhilde that Wotan's spear has broken...

 

As for Williams' leaving themes out... I mean, the leaving out of the original idea related to Vader and the Imperials in the first film is just as egregious as the leaving out of the motif that connotes the Droids (which I believe is suggested once or twice in Return of the Jedi). I think its a byproduct of Williams' desire to give the different scores an individuality that some motifs are not carried over into the larger cycle, which again is also a feature of other cycles of scores using the leitmotif technique.

[Faleel 5,364]

1 hour ago, KittBash said:

 

 

 

Maybe I can help here. 

 

It does not appear to be mentioned in the notes for the Anthology set by Lukas

 

 

But @Signals and @Jay memories are correct it is mentioned by Mike in the 97 notes

 

 

 

What about that article in FSM?

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

1 hour ago, KittBash said:

But @Signals and @Jay memories are correct it is mentioned by Mike in the 97 notes

 

I didn't remember MM mentions it. I read those over and over again back in 97, but I didn't become aware of the theme in the ROTJ track until much later. I guess I also couldn't hear it at first.

[KittBash 282]

26 minutes ago, Signals said:

What about that article in FSM?

 

Possible but I can say for certain it's not mentioned in the Star Wars Special issue [Vol2 Number 1].. At least in the track analysis Here's what it says about the track again by Matessino

 

Quote

Disc Two
Track 3, Brother and Sister/Father and
Son/The Fleet Enters Hyperspace/Heroic Ewok:
This track forms a particularly graceful transition from concert suites back to underscore. In the film, "Brother and Sister" is preceded by a section of "Yoda and the Force" from Empire. Here the cue is followed, as in the film, by the previously unavailable "Father and Son." For this cue, the ending statement of Luke's theme was dropped and replaced by the ending of "Emperor's Throne Room" once again.
"The Fleet Enters Hyperspace" begins with a short section of previously unreleased material which leads to the action music as Lando leads the fighters towards Endor.

 

[MikePetersen 8]

On 09/08/2023 at 7:42 PM, Demodex said:

 

First, what droid music in ANH are you talking about?  I didn't know there was any. 

Second, isn't the Droid motif in ESB the same as ROTJ's?

First) There's a fragment that appears during the Jawa music, that is quoted again during the Trash Compactor sequence in ANH, that I've always assumed is related to the droids. Second) No. The ESB droid theme recurs often throughout that score (more on album than the film itself) but we never hear it again. The ROTJ material is fresh and different.