John Williams and Aaron Copland

[Trope 527]

Hello!

 

Yesterday I listened to Johnny's Lincoln score for the first time, and I really loved it. I'm an enormous fan of his Americana style, particularly his softer, more reflective writing, which is very evidently inspired by the works of Aaron Copland (one of my favourite composers). 

 

This led me to want to explore more of this sound in Johnny's works, and I want to ask you guys: What are some other JW scores similar in sound to Lincoln, or that contain sections of that Copland/Americana sound?

 

From my listening experience, I can recall Saving Private Ryan and parts of Amistad having a similar Copland vibe, but beyond these, I'm not sure.

[Tom 4,666]

 

And this one, which is brilliant.  The focus this part of the film, Unfinished Journey, is American entertainment.  Obviously, Williams is scoring it, so it is going to be his music, but he does the whole thing as an homage to Hoe Down--two for one.  

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

Also:

 

 

 

[Thor 7,516]

Other examples:

 

JFK

BORN ON THE 4TH OF JULY

THE COWBOYS

THE PATRIOT

THE BFG (weirdly, for such a quintessentially British story)

 

Personally, I always make a distinction between the more classical Americana in Copland's idiom - big, open intervals, soulful trumpets, fullbodied orchestral sound etc. - and the more gritty, earthy Americana of things like THE REIVERS, ROSEWOOD, THE MISSOURI BREAKS etc., which is NOT so Coplandesque, IMO.

 

I wonder if Williams ever MET Copland, though.

 

[QuartalHarmony 543]

The tracks from Superman which cover the Kansas part of the story, which Donner filmed in a very Norman Rockwell style was matched perfectly by JW channeling Copland wonderfully.

 

Leaving Home would be my top recommendation, but Death of Jonathan Kent and Growing Up are pretty good examples too.

 

Mark

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

I wonder if Williams ever MET Copland, though.

 

Weren't they lovers? 

[QuartalHarmony 543]

No chance, unless Copland put on a brunette wig and a very convincing British accent.

 

And baked him some cookies.

[scoreman36 68]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Other examples:

 

JFK

BORN ON THE 4TH OF JULY

THE COWBOYS

THE PATRIOT

THE BFG (weirdly, for such a quintessentially British story)

 

Personally, I always make a distinction between the more classical Americana in Copland's idiom - big, open intervals, soulful trumpets, fullbodied orchestral sound etc. - and the more gritty, earthy Americana of things like THE REIVERS, ROSEWOOD, THE MISSOURI BREAKS etc., which is NOT so Coplandesque, IMO.

 

I wonder if Williams ever MET Copland, though.

 

Yes but he was al(ready) dead

[80sFan 108]

It's interesting you would post this. Someone just sent me the link below referring to Copland in the early part of the video (I have never seen this guy's videos before)

 

How John Williams Evolved as a Composer Since His First Movie in 1958

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Personally, I always make a distinction between the more classical Americana in Copland's idiom - big, open intervals, soulful trumpets, fullbodied orchestral sound etc. - and the more gritty, earthy Americana of things like THE REIVERS, ROSEWOOD, THE MISSOURI BREAKS etc., which is NOT so Coplandesque, IMO.

 

That's why I didn't post Sugarland Express. But the orchestral bits in the Rosewood track above are close enough to Lincoln to qualify for this thread, I think.

 

3 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

The tracks from Superman which cover the Kansas part of the story, which Donner filmed in a very Norman Rockwell style was matched perfectly by JW channeling Copland wonderfully.

 

Yes, but the best version of all that stuff is still in the Cowboys overture.

[Trope 527]

Oh, I’ve just remembered there being some pretty neat Copland-esque material in Far and Away.

[Thor 7,516]

 

53 minutes ago, Trope said:

Oh, I’ve just remembered there being some pretty neat Copland-esque material in Far and Away.

 

Oh, sure, one can count individual tracks or segments in a score too. ANGELA'S ASHES, for example, which is mostly gorgeous, "British-style" and pastoral, but obviously has that returning to America cue towards the end.

[ConorPower 148]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

I wonder if Williams ever MET Copland, though.

This was always at the forefront of my mind when digging into the JW & AC connections for my PhD (which I passed 3 week backs 🥳!). Never found anything to prove it though, but I’m sure they must have crossed paths at Tanglewood or through Bernstein in the 70s or early 80s, or even through Herrmann earlier on, he studied with AC for a time. 

 

Most of the go-to examples have been named, but I’d add:

The final tracks of The Post, which become very earnest and Coplanesque. 

Lots of the fanfares - Liberty Fanfare, Olympic Fanfare and Theme - obviously owe a large debt to Copand’s Fanfare for the Common Man, but they obviously suggest starkly different feelings to Lincoln, SPR etc. 

Then there’s the more rustic Rodeo-inflected sound evident in parts of Lincoln; and stuff like “Follow Me” from Always and “Isabelle’s Horse and Buggy” in Stepmom. In a similar vein, @Thor pointed me toward a vibrant insert Williams added to The Mission, which is also in that same spirit. Can’t recall where to find it though! 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

24 minutes ago, ConorPower said:

Coplanesque

 

How did you define this in your thesis?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

The second movement of Williams' Trumpet Concerto has clearly been influenced by Copland's Quiet City.

[ConorPower 148]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

How did you define this in your thesis?

With difficulty - haha! The term has been used so much it’s grown far beyond Copland and it’s a collection of different sounds/styles - hymnal, pastoral, heroic, patriotic, stark - rather than one consistent thing. Nor are any of these sounds purely attributable to Copland either, Williams has done much for their popularity alongside other composers of westerns + Hugo Friedhofer, Jerome Morros, Elmer Bernstein, Virgil Thompson etc. 
 

But I think JW’s Coplandesque scores - the really good ones: like The Cowboys, Lincoln, SPR - go beyond just co-opting a Copland sound, but rather blend together all of these influences/traditions. It’s just that Copland has become the de facto frame (that’s not to say an inappropriate one!) through which we discuss this sound that it’s hard to address any musical Americana without citing him (see title of this thread as proof 😂)

 

 

@Trope & @Jurassic Shark btw, great (& short) video essay on Williams and Copland (& Horner) here:

 

It also speaks to some of the distinctions/separations of AC sound which @Thor alluded to. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

15 minutes ago, ConorPower said:

With difficulty - haha! The term has been used so much it’s grown far beyond Copland and it’s a collection of different sounds/styles - hymnal, pastoral, heroic, patriotic, stark - rather than one consistent thing. Nor are any of these sounds purely attributable to Copland either, Williams has done much for their popularity alongside other composers of westerns + Hugo Friedhofer, Jerome Morros, Elmer Bernstein, Virgil Thompson etc. 
 

But I think JW’s Coplandesque scores - the really good ones: like The Cowboys, Lincoln, SPR - go beyond just co-opting a Copland sound, but rather blend together all of these influences/traditions. It’s just that Copland has become the de facto frame (that’s not to say an inappropriate one!) through which we discuss this sound that it’s hard to address any musical Americana without citing him (see title of this thread as proof 😂)

 

 

@Trope & @Jurassic Shark btw, great (& short) video essay on Williams and Copland (& Horner) here:

 

It also speaks to some of the distinctions/separations of AC sound which @Thor alluded to. 

 

Thanks! Just curious - what was the subject and conclusion of your thesis?

[ConorPower 148]

It was basically all about JW’s American sound, looking at many of the scores mentioned in the thread, particularly anything martial, pastoral, hymnal. I was trying to assess how Williams channels his American predecessors: what musical traits does he borrow, which are his own etc. And I also explored how his Americana might encourage a viewer/listener to look at the US from a particular perspective - for example, the hymnal character of Lincoln essentially deifies the president throughout. 

The conclusions were basically that Williams has assimilated numerous American voices into his own, and might now even be a reference point for modern audiences’ understanding of what the US “sounds” like. I also tried to question/critique whether or not his role as a patriotic composer might occasionally supersede his filmic duties (I think that’s glaringly obvious at the end of Midway and in his approach to Lincoln), and address that the sound of America only represent an ideal of America. 
 

It was called Composing America: Patriotism, Mythology, and Piety in the Film Scores of John Williams. Currently doing some small scale corrections following my defence! Nearly finished with it!

 

Thanks for the expression of interest @Jurassic Shark! You actually really helped me out at a pivotal stage when selling me the Lincoln piano folio, that was really helpful for some of my analysis. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

20 minutes ago, ConorPower said:

Thanks for the expression of interest @Jurassic Shark! You actually really helped me out at a pivotal stage when selling me the Lincoln piano folio, that was really helpful for some of my analysis. 

 

I used to purchase several copies when I found particularly good sheet music deals on Amazon, as an "insurance" considering their lousy packaging for international orders. So thanks for buying my spare copy, and let me know if there's anything else you're looking for.

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

3 hours ago, ConorPower said:

I also tried to question/critique whether or not his role as a patriotic composer might occasionally supersede his filmic duties (I think that’s glaringly obvious at the end of Midway and in his approach to Lincoln)

 

I get your point, but I think in the case of Lincoln, it's not Williams you'd have to blame (if you want to blame anyone). The film is clearly made that way, and the score just does what the film asks of it. That's not to say of course that Williams might not have written a score in a similar vein for a different film.

[Trope 527]

4 hours ago, ConorPower said:

@Trope & @Jurassic Shark btw, great (& short) video essay on Williams and Copland (& Horner) here:

 

It also speaks to some of the distinctions/separations of AC sound which @Thor alluded to. 

Thank you for recommending this amazing video. I love the categories he uses to describe Copland's different modes/styles.

 

If I were to reword my original post in this thread, I would ask: What other John Williams scores or portions of scores demonstrate similarities to Copland's "protagonistic introspection" (i.e. hymnal) style?

 

That introspective style may be more appealing to me emotionally than the obvious "triumphant exordium", which is frequently pastiched by lesser composers. 

 

I also adore Copland's "idyllic nature" idiom, as exemplified here:

 

and here:

 

Do we know if Williams ever wrote in this sparser, quasi-static idiom?

[ConorPower 148]

9 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I get your point, but I think in the case of Lincoln, it's not Williams you'd have to blame (if you want to blame anyone). The film is clearly made that way, and the score just does what the film asks of it. That's not to say of course that Williams might not have written a score in a similar vein for a different film.

Oh, yes of course! He’s not an island. 

8 hours ago, Trope said:

Do we know if Williams ever wrote in this sparser, quasi-static idiom?

“Graveyard” from The Cowboys kind of has that sense of stasis and space, but doesn’t foreground woodwind so much. Same with “Oklahoma Territory” in Far and Away. They’re not quite the same as the Copland sound though.