Return of the King EXTENDED EDITION Discussion

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Go read the proper English version first, then we'll talk.

[John Crichton 4]

Both the Silmarillon and The Downfall of Numenor (the Aka....something. I don't feel like looking it up ) have good descriptions of Sauron before the end of the Second Age. But I'm really curious if Tolkien ever wrote a more detailed description of what he looks like in the Third Age. Maybe I'll go by B&N and flip through the books, they don't mind.

John- who thinks the Silmarillon, even with all the editing Christopher Tolkien had to do, is just as good as LotR

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

Go read the proper English version first, then we'll talk.

I have. Your memory must be failing you.

Both the Silmarillon and The Downfall of Numenor (the Aka....something. I don't feel like looking it up   )

Akallabeth. (With some stroke and dots on some letters perhaps, I don't have those memorized). Numenor is also known as Atalante (with two dots on the "e").

John- who thinks the Silmarillon, even with all the editing Christopher Tolkien had to do, is just as good as LotR  

Marian - who thinks The Book of Lost Tales, even with the heavy editing and unfinished state of the stories, is in the same league as the Sil.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Akallabeth. (With some stroke and dots on some letters perhaps, I don't have those memorized). Numenor is also known as Atalante (with two dots on the "e").

Anyone else thinks that Atalantë is kind of a wink to Atlantis.

Atlantis being the lost continent and Atalantë being the Downfallen isle?

Also, Avallónë is probably Tolkiens wink to the Arthurian Avalon.

[Danielle 0]

I didn't notice anyone else post this, so here's the features for the ROTK:EE -

DISCS 1-2: The Feature

FEATURE (approx. 250 minutes) - A new version of the final installment in the epic trilogy! The Academy-Award® winning film now has 50 minutes of never-before-seen footage incorporated into the film for this highly-anticipated video release: Widescreen (2.35:1) version of the Special Extended Edition

Dolby Digital EX 5.1 Surround Sound

DTS ES 6.1 Surround Sound

Stereo Surround Sound

English subtitles and closed captions

Spanish subtitles

Four audio commentaries by the director and writers, the design team, the production team and the cast featuring more than 30 participants including Peter Jackson, Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, Orlando Bloom and Academy Award® winners Richard Taylor, Howard Shore?and many more.

Cast commentary also features dialogue between split-personality characters Gollum and Smeagol (Andy Serkis)!

DISCS 3-4: The Appendices

Two discs with hours of original content including multiple documentaries and design/photo galleries with thousands of images to give viewers an in-depth behind-the-scenes look at The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King::

THE APPENDICES PART V: "The War of the Ring"

Disc intro by director Peter Jackson

"J.R.R. Tolkien: The Legacy of Middle-earth" documentary

From Book to Script:

"From Book to Script: Forging the Final Chapter" documentary

Abandoned Concept: Aragorn Battles Sauron

Designing and Building Middle-earth:

"Designing Middle-earth" documentary

"Big-atures" documentary

"Weta Workshop" documentary

"Costume Design" documentary

Design Galleries - 2,123 images

The Peoples of Middle-earth (galleries with docent audio)

The Realms of Middle-earth (galleries with docent audio)

Miniatures (galleries with docent audio)

"Home of the Horse Lords" documentary

"Middle-earth Atlas: Tracing the Journeys of the Fellowship" interactive map

"New Zealand as Middle-earth" interactive map w/on-location footage

THE APPENDICES PART VI: "The Passing of an Age"

Disc intro by Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan

Filming The Return of the King:

"Cameras in Middle-earth" documentary

Production Photos (gallery) - 69 images

Visual Effects:

"Weta Digital" documentary

"The Mumakil Battle" demonstration / multi-angle interactive feature

Post Production: Journey's End:

"Editorial: Completing the Trilogy" documentary

"Music for Middle-earth" documentary

"The Soundscapes of Middle-earth" documentary

"The End of All Things" documentary

"The Passing of an Age" documentary

Cameron Duncan: The Inspiration for "Into the West":

"Cameron Duncan: The Inspiration for 'Into the West'" documentary

"DFK6498" short film

"Strike Zone" short film

DVD-ROM CONTENT: Includes access to exclusive online features

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

Anyone else thinks that Atalantë is kind of a wink to Atlantis.

No. Why?

Marian - :spiny:

The Secret of N.I.M.H. (Jerry Goldsmith)

[John Crichton 4]

Akallabeth. (With some stroke and dots on some letters perhaps, I don't have those memorized). Numenor is also known as Atalante (with two dots on the "e").

Yeah, that's it. And there are some characters over the letters that my keyboard could never reproduce. :spiny:

Marian - who thinks The Book of Lost Tales, even with the heavy editing and unfinished state of the stories, is in the same league as the Sil.

Those are the first two books in the History series, right? I do want to check those out sometime. But I really want to see the later history books. Supposedly they have some sketchings of Tolkien's thoughts on the far future, even the return of Morgoth.

Anyone else thinks that Atalantë is kind of a wink to Atlantis.  

Atlantis being the lost continent and Atalantë being the Downfallen isle?

Crazy talk. What an insane notion.

Thanks for the DVD specs dani. I hadn't seen those yet.

[John Crichton 4]

Cast commentary also features dialogue between split-personality characters Gollum and Smeagol (Andy Serkis)!

LOL

Andy Serkis is one funny guy, I bet this will be a riot.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Academy-Award® winning film now has 50 minutes of never-before-seen footage incorporated into the film for this highly-anticipated video release:  

Only 50 minutes, what will I do with the rest of my day?

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

Marian - who thinks The Book of Lost Tales, even with the heavy editing and unfinished state of the stories, is in the same league as the Sil.

Those are the first two books in the History series, right? I do want to check those out sometime.

You are right. What I meant was Unfinished Tales. I always keep confusing the two.

I once borrowed BoLT 1 & 2 from the library. Didn't get far, and it all seemed very un-Tolkien-ish to me. Of course, the roots are there. But all those gnomes and stuff I found really weird.

Marian - who will try again someday.

The Secret of N.I.M.H. (Jerry Goldsmith)

[John Crichton 4]

You are right. What I meant was Unfinished Tales. I always keep confusing the two.

Ah, I see. Yes, the Unifished Tales is a superb collection.

[John Crichton 4]

The Academy-Award® winning film now has 50 minutes of never-before-seen footage incorporated into the film for this highly-anticipated video release:  

Only 50 minutes, what will I do with the rest of my day?

Watch discs 3 and 4. I thought the MB Deity could figure these things out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Actually, it did take me DAYS to watch the extra's on the first 2 EE DVD's.

[Incanus 5,715]

I just browsed through the Theonering.net and this article from Hollywood Reporter caught my eye:

The limited collector's DVD edition of the "King" extended version includes a fifth disc that reveals a 52-minute feature titled "Howard Shore: Creating the Lord of the Rings Symphony -- A Composers Journey Through Middle-Earth," which includes excerpts of live concert footage of the Lord of the Rings Symphony recorded with the Montreal Symphony Orchestra.

If this is true it confirms that I'm buying the Collector's edition.

Wonderful that the music get's it's own Disc in the set.

Why doesn't Williams have one for the Star Wars trilogy or the whole hexalogy? Wait, I forgot we are dealing with Sony and Lucas when the Star Wars music is concerned and all the extras they put out is mediocre multimedia of posters and unreleased artwork. I hate Lucas (as if anybody did not know that already)!

[A24 4,338]

Because according to the polls Howard Shore is the greatest composer in the world.

What a world, what a world...I'm melting, I'm melting...

----------------

Alex Cremers

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No Alex, because unlike Lucas, the producers and director of LOTR genuinly acknowledge Shore's contribution to these films.

And the Symphony is a hot item filling concert halls and sports arena's all over the world.

The symphony is pretty good, even though it's for the most part a slimmed down version of the OST releases.

[A24 4,338]

No Alex, because unlike Lucas, the producers and director of LOTR genuinly acknowledge Shore's contribution to these films.

That's not true, Stefancos. Why the sudden naivety? They know it would make a strong selling point. Howard Shore is very popular with people who like the LOTR trilogy.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Because according to the polls Howard Shore is the greatest composer in the world.

No! You're lying! You're lying! No! What's next, Klaus Badelt?

[A24 4,338]

Because according to the polls Howard Shore is the greatest composer in the world.

No! You're lying! You're lying! No! What's next, Klaus Badelt?

No, ... I believe it was Hans .. Hans Zimmer, I don't remember.

In any case, listening to the masses it's a miracle that the Earth still revolves around the Sun.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Justin 2]

No Alex, because unlike Lucas, the producers and director of LOTR genuinly acknowledge Shore's contribution to these films.

That's not true, Stefancos. Why the sudden naivety? They know it would make a strong selling point. Howard Shore is very popular with people who like the LOTR trilogy.

And the Star Wars scores aren't a High selling point for fans of Star Wars?

Justin

[stewdog1 50]

And the Star Wars scores aren't a High selling point for fans of Star Wars?  

They used to be. Now, LOTR is all the rage of casual film score listeners. SW is so 10 minutes ago. Plus over used. If there was a SW symphony at play right now, LOTR would probably outsell it.

I can't believe the blasphemy of which I speak, but it is unfortunately true.

[John Crichton 4]

An LotR thread on the main board! Catastrophe! Red alert! Shut down the board until this problem can be corrected!!

On topic, it is very frustrating to have to hear so many people who are either casual fans or have no idea about film scores going on and on about how the LotR series are the greatest film scores ever. They're very good certainly, but not that good.

By the way, does anybody remember what was coming up consitently at or near #1 in these polls and such before LotR came out? Gladiator. So maybe we're better off right now.

[stewdog1 50]

That's the problem with Pop culture. It never goes for greatness. It loves the medicore to good. Most people in the world do not understand greatness and never will. That is why some of the best music ever produced will never be heard by 90% or more of the people.

That is why we should all feel blessed that we see/hear greatness when it is presented. Goldsmith haters not included, of course.

[diskobolus 3]

I have tried to find this out for a while, but is it known when the extended scores are coming out?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No.

[hoby12 0]

I recently read in the New York times poll:

the three greatest film scores

Lord of the Rings - HS

Gladiator - HZ

Star Wars - JW

in that order.

[Jeshopk 8]

HooHAH!

Funny that they just HAPPEN to be for 3 of the most popular films. Seriously, is Star Wars any better than most of Williams? I think not. He always keeps a similar standard of writing. But you can bet that one of his "unpopular" movies would NEVER be on that list. The people they polled can't seperate music from film.

[John Crichton 4]

Well they got one right.

In five years there will be another new "greatest film score of all time" according to the casual/non-film score fans. Those top two will probably always change depending on the flavor of the month. And through it all, Star Wars will always be there.

[Miz 139]

I know what I like, so it doesn't bother me that the masses are missing out on some good film score. I also know they only really like the music because of the novelty value of having it associated with a film they like - few pop-score listeners can appreciate such music on its own.

As for this documentary, I'm looking forward to it. I've held out on buying ROTK on DVD because I know the Extended Edition will be astounding, extra scenes, extra music, the amazing film I remember, the bonus discs and this documentary. It'll be good to hear some of the Symphony again (seen it, London, thank you ) - I hope it's not small snippets, but nice chunks to watch (I fear it'll be the former). The whole thing will also hype me up further for the sacred complete releases of the entire trilogy....

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

No Alex, because unlike Lucas, the producers and director of LOTR genuinly acknowledge Shore's contribution to these films.

Oh Lord, may I speak?

Well if Williams best friend has not done any DVD about him (he just keeps the scoring sessions footage for himself) the do not bash Lucas first. I thik the most suitable to do a DVD about Williams is Spielberg.

Though Spielberg has not done anything that requires so much music as SW or LOTR, his colaborations are far more large that those two...

[John Crichton 4]

If there's anyone here who doesn't visit the Other Topics forum (and if you don't, you should), there's a thread that just started about the complete score CDs, and our buddy Jim Ware posted this nice piece of info:

The music for the Return of the King Extended Edition was recorded back in the third week of March.  The box set is expected to be released at some point in 2005, accompanied by Doug Adams' book The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films.

[nihil 0]

personally, i would prefer to see minas morgul over minas tirith...but sigh, i do get the logic...my own logic is a different one...i would have the two towers and not gollum in the other edition...

as for the symphony dvd, i think it also makes perfect sense seeing as they did an extensive backtrack work of the artwork sketches, scenery, clothing (in the art of series) and weaponry (there's a separate book), so the music was the thing missing, and it does make sense that they waited for the rotk to publish...i'm looking forward to the boxset and the book...it was a choice of the whole enterprise early on to pay tribute to the people involved, which is something that i think is a good thing...

i agree with the comment that spielberg should be the one to make a dvd on williams...

as for who's better or worse, personally speaking there's room in my life for any music that moves me and/or inspires me, so there are a lot of composers lying about around here...and i'm just fine with that...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

On topic, it is very frustrating to have to hear so many people who are either casual fans or have no idea about film scores going on and on about how the LotR series are the greatest film scores ever. They're very good certainly, but not that good.

They're very good certainly??? I object. I don't think that bland pedal points, simple 5-finger melodies played over long held chords, and a complete lack of counterpoint (or anything else that might add a little sophistication) are all it takes to write a "good" piece of music, film score or otherwise. Although for the most part I enjoyed the LOTR trilogy (well, the second and third films at any rate, I was disappointed by the first) I found the music to be tedious and overly simplistic. Far from adding to the film or drawing me into a scene I found it so poor as to be distracting. So for me it failed on every level. The LOTR scores are NOT "very good certainly". In fact I think they demonstrate perfectly the level to which film music has sunk since it's 50-year "hayday" (the 30s to the 80s).

I sometimes wonder whether the "cut and paste" mentality of the computer generation of composers has something to do with this trend. Composers are no longer required to posess the skill to hear their music in their head while writing orchestrations. They simply have to press play on their version of Finale or Sibelius and the computer plays it for them. Then if they like it they can cut-and-paste it a few times and hey presto, 20 seconds has become a minute of music. A couple of extra notes here and there to disguise the cut-and-paste job and all's well. If Howard Shore really had the ability to hear his music away from the computer I doubt whether all his scores would revolve around extended pedal points.

John Williams on the other hand was a born improviser. His ability to play jazz showed how his mind was always a step ahead of the music. His mind dictated where the music would go to (Shore's music rarely goes anywhere, there is no sense of direction...) not his (Williams') response to hearing the computer playback on Finale. Don't get me wrong, I think Sibelius and Finale are excellent tools for producing scores, and certainly the playback function can give a good indication as to whether the pacing of a piece works (and helps the composer to find elusive typing mistakes!). I just don't think these programmes should be used while actually composing the music. Compose a good length chunk of music, put it on the computer, and THEN hit playback to see if it works.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Well they got one right.

In five years there will be another new "greatest film score of all time" according to the casual/non-film score fans. Those top two will probably always change depending on the flavor of the month. And through it all, Star Wars will always be there.  

To make up for my last post I agree with you here!!!! It's like movie polls. The top 10 changes all the time (Will Pulp Fiction still even be in the top 100 in another 10 years? In the mid 90s it was number 1!) but you can bet that Citizen Kane, Raging Bull, Godfather, Lawrence of Arabia and Jaws will all still be pretty high on the list. And guess what, they all have stonking music!

[A24 4,338]

They're very good certainly??? I object. I don't think that bland pedal points, simple 5-finger melodies played over long held chords, and a complete lack of counterpoint (or anything else that might add a little sophistication) are all it takes to write a "good" piece of music, film score or otherwise. Although for the most part I enjoyed the LOTR trilogy (well, the second and third films at any rate, I was disappointed by the first) I found the music to be tedious and overly simplistic. Far from adding to the film or drawing me into a scene I found it so poor as to be distracting. So for me it failed on every level. The LOTR scores are NOT "very good certainly". In fact I think they demonstrate perfectly the level to which film music has sunk since it's 50-year "hayday" (the 30s to the 80s).  

I sometimes wonder whether the "cut and paste" mentality of the computer generation of composers has something to do with this trend. Composers are no longer required to posess the skill to hear their music in their head while writing orchestrations. They simply have to press play on their version of Finale or Sibelius and the computer plays it for them. Then if they like it they can cut-and-paste it a few times and hey presto, 20 seconds has become a minute of music. A couple of extra notes here and there to disguise the cut-and-paste job and all's well. If Howard Shore really had the ability to hear his music away from the computer I doubt whether all his scores would revolve around extended pedal points.  

John Williams on the other hand was a born improviser. His ability to play jazz showed how his mind was always a step ahead of the music. His mind dictated where the music would go to (Shore's music rarely goes anywhere, there is no sense of direction...) not his (Williams') response to hearing the computer playback on Finale. Don't get me wrong, I think Sibelius and Finale are excellent tools for producing scores, and certainly the playback function can give a good indication as to whether the pacing of a piece works (and helps the composer to find elusive typing mistakes!). I just don't think these programmes should be used while actually composing the music. Compose a good length chunk of music, put it on the computer, and THEN hit playback to see if it works.

That's not the real problem, pixie twinkle, film music doesn't have to be technically complicated, but Shore, and here lies the real problem, doubles or duplicates every emotion the audience already received from the image. In fact, he makes his own music redundant. You get the same information twice! Emotionally, Howard Shore is telling us, the audience, what we already know. The striking thing is that when you present such a straightforward message, an emotion so pantently obvious it can't miss its objective, the reaction from the modern-day audience is extremely positive.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's not the real problem, pixie twinkle, film music doesn't have to be technically complicated, but Shore, and here lies the real problem, doubles or duplicates every emotion the audience already received from the image.

Like Williams is not guilty of that?

[A24 4,338]

Like Williams is not guilty of that?

That's why we need Michael Jackson, warden Stefancos.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

These days the only emotion Michael duplicates is nausea, revultion, scorn or grief.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Excuse me? LotR scores don't have counterpoint? Listen to the first track of RotK, there you have an excellent demonstration of counterpoint.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Well, speaking of LOTR, has anyone already heard the City of Prague's 2CD compilation? Outside of a few tragic renditions of vocal material, the orchestral themes are played very well (!) and since the compilation is just out and available practically for a dime, it's a way to hear (again - however WELL performed by the ensemble) how that compilation either ordered cues in unfortunate order or somewhere there lies an evidence that the themes don't work together very well when set bare from "underscore" material they're accompanied by on regular albums, which actually puts original albums highs above this compilation material listening experience-wise.

I would really like to hear the symphonic work Shore scored and you all talk about just for this reason how well he managed stretch the themes from all three installments into separate movements and how well they work when put together.

Maybe I'm biased and I won't object to anyone who says I am.

[Miz 139]

Excuse me? LotR scores don't have counterpoint? Listen to the first track of RotK, there you have an excellent demonstration of counterpoint.

I'd cite The White Tree.

Seriously, pixie twinkle, these are hardly 'below-par' scores - especially when you consider there's ten hours of material (with very little straight repetition). Though I do see what's being said with 'duplication of emotion', but what else would you have?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The fact that these scores are not considered "below par" by today's standards is precisely my point. I agree that they are probably better than most scores appearing these days, and I find that incredibly sad.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I'm sorry, but if you even consider RotK "below par" by your standards, then there's something wrong with your standards (IMHO). That score has amazingly diverse writing, and intelligently complex composition (think "A Storm is coming", "The White Tree", "Shelob's Lair", ...)

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I thought that Jackson was supposed to come out with this in like May or June since he no longer had to focus on releasing the next LOTR film.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I'm sorry, but if you even consider RotK "below par" by your standards, then there's something wrong with your standards (IMHO). That score has amazingly diverse writing, and intelligently complex composition (think "A Storm is coming", "The White Tree", "Shelob's Lair", ...)

I have never listened to these scores on CD, only with the movie. That's what I'm basing my opinion on. I agree with you that Return of the King was a significantly better score than the first two. I'll also admit that I like the "history of the ring" theme very much. My reaction to these scores may have seemed excessive, and it probably was (I know they're not THAT bad!). But I feel my reaction is in direct proportion with the those in favour of these scores. It amazes me that there are so many people out there who hold these scores to be the best ever written. I sometimes wonder what standard of music these people consider to be "normal" if the LOTR scores are the best. I really wasn't trying to be quite as argumentative as I appeared, I just feel strongly about this. I also strongly believe that composing at a computer can have an adverse effect on the quality of music produced.

[TIEfighter 0]

I just don't think these programmes should be used while actually composing the music. Compose a good length chunk of music, put it on the computer, and THEN hit playback to see if it works.

yeah, but that way horner couldn´t have scored troy in 2 weeks

[Henry B 50]

In five years there will be another new "greatest film score of all time" according to the casual/non-film score fans.

Pirates of the Caribean 3.

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

I thought that Jackson was supposed to come out with this in like May or June since he no longer had to focus on releasing the next LOTR film.

That's exactly the reason why it's taking longer this time. Jackson, cast and crew are busy with other projects now, so it takes a little longer to get all the extra features together. Or so I've read.

Marian - hoping to have enough money by December.

[John Crichton 4]

In five years there will be another new "greatest film score of all time" according to the casual/non-film score fans.

Pirates of the Caribean 3.

Like I said in another thread, it's scary how many people out there thought PotC was a good score and wanted Badelt to do Goblet of Fire based on that.

John- who enjoyed PotC the movie, but never wants to be subjected to listening to that score on CD.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

"PLZ GET KLAUS BAEDLT 2 DO SONGS FOR GOF!111111! LOL HED B SO MUCH BTER THAN TAHT O WILIMSON DUDA1!1!! OMG WTF"