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And then you listen to something like "The Train"


BLUMENKOHL

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Driving around running errands today I was listening to music from the Legend of Zorro, and you know you had your occasional groaner with the trademarked and well documented "Hornerisms" but then the bastard throws you a "The Train" which is 11:12 of fantastically fun, energetic, spirited, make you feel something music. And all of the sudden driving down the highway you kinda squirm uncomfortably as you realize what's going through your head "Well...if I do put him in my top 3...he does complete the triangle of J's....John...Jerry...James...nice ring to it---wait what am I saying?"

I have to hand it to Horner, even his repetition he manages to better himself (or others) more often than not. For example A Beautiful Mind is a more satisfying version of Bicentennial Man. And you know what, the notes he tweaked for the opening of "Stealing Enterprise" make it a more satisfying listen than Prokofiev's own original bit of music.

And of course he has his own distinct talent: of the composers of the 80s to this day, John and Jerry included, he has an unmatched gift when it comes to creating engaging and clear dramatic music (see "Four More Amps" Apollo 13, could any other composer write this? There is not an unnecessary note to be found). This likely because the one thing that is virtually guaranteed when you pop in most of Horner's scores: there is a clear sense of direction. The music rarely sounds like it just meanders about, often overdone, especially in the slow underscore/drama bits (looking at you older composers).

If you're not into Horner, don't let everyone's overreaction to his "lifting" deter you. The man still has a supreme amount of talent and skill.

John, Jerry, and James? Sounds about right.

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Driving around running errands today I was listening to music from the Legend of Zorro, and you know you had your occasional groaner with the trademarked and well documented "Hornerisms" but then the bastard throws you a "The Train" which is 11:12 of fantastically fun, energetic, spirited, make you feel something music. And all of the sudden driving down the highway you kinda squirm uncomfortably as you realize what's going through your head "Well...if I do put him in my top 3...he does complete the triangle of J's....John...Jerry...James...nice ring to it---wait what am I saying?"

I have to hand it to Horner, even his repetition he manages to better himself (or others) more often than not. For example A Beautiful Mind is a more satisfying version of Bicentennial Man. And you know what, the notes he tweaked for the opening of "Stealing Enterprise" make it a more satisfying listen than Prokofiev's own original bit of music.

And of course he has his own distinct talent: of the composers of the 80s to this day, John and Jerry included, he has an unmatched gift when it comes to creating engaging and clear dramatic music (see "Four More Amps" Apollo 13, could any other composer write this? There is not an unnecessary note to be found). This likely because the one thing that is virtually guaranteed when you pop in most of Horner's scores: there is a clear sense of direction. The music rarely sounds like it just meanders about, often overdone, especially in the slow underscore/drama bits (looking at you older composers).

If you're not into Horner, don't let everyone's overreaction to his "lifting" deter you. The man still has a supreme amount of talent and skill.

John, Jerry, and James? Sounds about right.

I think he got more original as his career went on. If you listen to his stuff in the 1980s, he really dug himself into a hole with the amount of self referencing/plagiarism that he did. Compared to the 1990s/2000s, the amount of lifting is in the minority.

My favourite film composer James Horner is.

Even if I'm not totally blown away by 'The Train'.

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Ah yes, the Triple J Trinity™.

I can remember thusly crowning that triumvirate even before I became an all out fan of film music.

Most of the earliest soundtracks I remember enjoying were from them:

Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Jurassic Park, The Patriot, Medicine Man, First Knight, Patton, The Rocketeer, Braveheart...

I definitely need more Horner. (And Goldsmith, and Williams, and...)

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I know the feeling you're describing, Blume. Horner is definitely an interesting creature. In some ways, I think his work represents the best and worst of film music. Emotionally direct and brilliantly constructed, yet endlessly derivative of his own work and others'. That means that when I hear a "Hornerism" for the first time, I'm typically blown away...but I start to roll my eyes when I hear it in every score. Then the brilliance hits me again, and my brain just can't decide whether to be annoyed and cynical or not.

I'm guessing the contradiction will never be resolved, at least for me. I'll continue to stand in awe of Horner's compositional chops and ability to stir genuine emotion in the listener...and I'll continue to shake my head at his shameless, unsubtle, continual reuse of material written by every composer under the sun, himself included.

By the way, I do think Bicentennial Man's opening credits were more effective, but yes, overall, Horner tends to improve upon whatever he's currently plagiarizing.

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Now that so many great composers have fallen away, James Horner is becoming more interesting, since he is one of the few left working in thd old school ways. As to The Train, I believe it was gohstwritten by Conrad Pope.

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I think he got more original as his career went on. If you listen to his stuff in the 1980s, he really dug himself into a hole with the amount of self referencing/plagiarism that he did. Compared to the 1990s/2000s, the amount of lifting is in the minority.

In dire need of a hearing aid? Horner just has stopped 'homaging' the classics, now he refrains mostly to sodomizing his own stuff. But that he does with a vengeance.

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Well, the guy composed Star Treks, All Systems Go, Casper's Lullaby and Death of Titanic. Frickin' awesome. I enjoy his work.

I listened to Titanic recently. I know a lot of people hate this score, and I can honestly understand the criticism. Sometimes I get fed up with parts of it if I'm not in the right frame of mind. But I like it. Now, I'm once again desiring the complete film score, not the album versions. Why is it that with a lot of these major scores that get various releases, it seems like it's never enough? Logic dictates we'd have the complete Titanic score by now given its popularity and two CD releases. Not music with dialogue (why don't I just watch the movie if I want that?), album alternates, music inspired by the movie rather than from it and the cruddy piano Portrait track...not to mention still missing the stuff when they explore the wreck at the beginning, which is phenomenal. My ranting is over. Someone please re-release Titanic!

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I think he got more original as his career went on. If you listen to his stuff in the 1980s, he really dug himself into a hole with the amount of self referencing/plagiarism that he did. Compared to the 1990s/2000s, the amount of lifting is in the minority.

In dire need of a hearing aid? Horner just has stopped 'homaging' the classics, now he refrains mostly to sodomizing his own stuff. But that he does with a vengeance.

But you are able to look through that when he's a favourite composer of yours. Seriously, when you listen to various JW scores, you don't hear when parts of them came from?

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Well-written thoughts, guys. Agreed with just about all of it. I prefer the vintage Horner sound. His new stuff doesn't seem to have the rawness of emotion, whether it be heartfelt, tearful, or jubilance. Of course, he had to evolve his style. 30 years of the vintage sound would've made even the general public roll their eyes by now. But despite all the controversy, his position of importance in the history of film music is very secure. He's one of the greats. John, Jerry, James? You bet.

But you are able to look through that when he's a favourite composer of yours. Seriously, when you listen to various JW scores, you don't hear when parts of them came from?

A good question, but for some reason, it's different with Williams. I can't really articulate why. I know it's true, that Williams has his own signature Williams-isms too, but for me, his music always sounds... normal. Like, it's the Standard against which all others are measured. He may have some textures that repeat, but they don't stick out like a sore thumb the way Horner does. There's never been a Williams repeat to the extreme of, say, the Genesis Project/Cocoon duplication. Like I said, I can't really explain it well. Williams' sound sounds just right, natural, and almost effortless. I just never picture him sitting at the piano, pulling out his last few hairs for lack of a new texture or musical idea. It's natural for him, and any similarity between scores would be because the subject matter is similar. Just imagine how similar Star Wars would sound like Raiders if Horner had composed both of them.

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A good question, but for some reason, it's different with Williams. I can't really articulate why. I

I surely can. Williams has his derivative tendencies (especially if he pulls out the old Prokoviev hat) and there is a certain 'same-iness' to his more somber efforts of late, but with Horner, whom i like a lot, it's just a different league. He beats the dead horse till it's either amusing (danger motif) or plain annoying (the synthesized choirs or certain americana figures, which turn up in alomst everything, say PERFECT STORM, WINDTALKERS or FOUR FEATHERS).

I am glad for every new Horner we get and now he works so infrequently that the plagiarism issues are hardly bothering me, but he's still an old copycat.

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I used to hate all his mannerisms, but, as the time goes by I mellowed towards his work. And I enjoy most of it a great deal these days. And yes, Legend of Zorro is very good indeed, much better than the first.

Karol

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And it's getting more and more frequent. But then Elfman does recycle a lot of his ideas verbatim, and yet few people seem to be bothered by this.

Karol

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I enjoy Horner's pre 90's work more than anything else he's done.

I purged a great deal of my Horner collection years ago. I'm down to abough 40 albums, most before the 90's. I find that's the best way to enjoy his work.

I don't care about him copying other composers, it's his self plagiarism that is more annoying than anything. And I have yet to hear any other composer do it as much as Horner has.

The Train is a good cue but the last 5 minutes or so sound like John Williams stepped in and finished it.

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A good question, but for some reason, it's different with Williams. I can't really articulate why. I know it's true, that Williams has his own signature Williams-isms too, but for me, his music always sounds... normal. Like, it's the Standard against which all others are measured. He may have some textures that repeat, but they don't stick out like a sore thumb the way Horner does. There's never been a Williams repeat to the extreme of, say, the Genesis Project/Cocoon duplication. Like I said, I can't really explain it well. Williams' sound sounds just right, natural, and almost effortless. I just never picture him sitting at the piano, pulling out his last few hairs for lack of a new texture or musical idea. It's natural for him, and any similarity between scores would be because the subject matter is similar. Just imagine how similar Star Wars would sound like Raiders if Horner had composed both of them.

Yep. Williams has certainly adapted old musical ideas for new uses on occasion, but his approach is fundamentally different from Horner's. With Williams, it's usually a momentary similarity in orchestration, or a melody that briefly follows the contour of another Williams melody, or something like that. (The exception would be COS, which sounds an awful lot like Williams pulling a Horner...but there were time constraints, and it was just one film.) And of course, there are general stylistic tendencies that can be found in most of Williams' work, and sometimes the director's temp love forces him to write something quite similar to a piece by another composer. But Horner will take a whole passage of his, even a whole cue, and make just the slightest changes to it before reusing it in a totally different film...and another...and another.

But as I said, clearly a talented guy. He's written a lot of great music. He's just written it too many times.

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Well-written thoughts, guys. Agreed with just about all of it. I prefer the vintage Horner sound. His new stuff doesn't seem to have the rawness of emotion, whether it be heartfelt, tearful, or jubilance. Of course, he had to evolve his style. 30 years of the vintage sound would've made even the general public roll their eyes by now. But despite all the controversy, his position of importance in the history of film music is very secure. He's one of the greats. John, Jerry, James? You bet.

But you are able to look through that when he's a favourite composer of yours. Seriously, when you listen to various JW scores, you don't hear when parts of them came from?

A good question, but for some reason, it's different with Williams. I can't really articulate why. I know it's true, that Williams has his own signature Williams-isms too, but for me, his music always sounds... normal. Like, it's the Standard against which all others are measured. He may have some textures that repeat, but they don't stick out like a sore thumb the way Horner does. There's never been a Williams repeat to the extreme of, say, the Genesis Project/Cocoon duplication. Like I said, I can't really explain it well. Williams' sound sounds just right, natural, and almost effortless. I just never picture him sitting at the piano, pulling out his last few hairs for lack of a new texture or musical idea. It's natural for him, and any similarity between scores would be because the subject matter is similar. Just imagine how similar Star Wars would sound like Raiders if Horner had composed both of them.

So when you listen to The Fury or Jaws 2, you surely hear virtually similar writing in The Empire Strikes Back?

Or Home Alone/Star Wars in Harry Potter?

In terms of self-referencing or developing sound out of previous scores, Williams does almost as much as Horner. It's just that people are willing to accept it more.

A good question, but for some reason, it's different with Williams. I can't really articulate why. I

I surely can. Williams has his derivative tendencies (especially if he pulls out the old Prokoviev hat) and there is a certain 'same-iness' to his more somber efforts of late, but with Horner, whom i like a lot, it's just a different league. He beats the dead horse till it's either amusing (danger motif) or plain annoying (the synthesized choirs or certain americana figures, which turn up in alomst everything, say PERFECT STORM, WINDTALKERS or FOUR FEATHERS).

I am glad for every new Horner we get and now he works so infrequently that the plagiarism issues are hardly bothering me, but he's still an old copycat.

See above.

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I've decided that his self plagarism is not a problem, at least not when he is able to do something new with an old tune (ie A Beautiful Man v. Bicentennial Man). The lifts from other composers, however, is something to dislike Horner for, because it's dishonest. He's taking credit for something he didn't write. And I know he's not one to deny his lifts, but it's not like he puts the composers' names in the movie credits when he steals from them.

That said, he is one of my favorite composers, and his original ideas can be fantastic.

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So when you listen to The Fury or Jaws 2, you surely hear virtually similar writing in The Empire Strikes Back?

I don't know Jaws 2, but The Fury and ESB are very different scores. (Although AOTC does borrow that ascending/descending motif from The Fury. But that's just two films, separated by several decades, and the scores are otherwise quite different.)

Or Home Alone/Star Wars in Harry Potter?

Harry Potter shares the use of darkly playful, Tchaikovsky-esque synth celeste with Home Alone, and there's the use of sleigh bells to evoke Christmastime, and they're generally fairly innocent and childlike.

In terms of self-referencing or developing sound out of previous scores, Williams does almost as much as Horner. It's just that people are willing to accept it more.

As I described above, their approaches to reusing material are very, very different. Williams almost never lifts an entire passage or cue verbatim, and when he does, it's usually so brief and out-of-the-ordinary that it's indeed easier to accept. The similarities between his scores are generally shorter, less frequent, and less direct. With Horner, it would be a shock to listen to a score in which there are NOT multiple direct lifts from other Horner scores, some of which may go on for half a minute or longer, with barely any change to the orchestration, voicing, etc. Unless you can demonstrate that the vast majority of Williams scores do the same thing, they're still going to be very different.

With Williams, I look forward to listening to scores I haven't heard because I know roughly what to expect stylistically, but most of the content will be new and unique and different. With Horner, I actually avoid listening to scores I haven't heard because I'm afraid that they'll undermine my enjoyment of the scores I already know.

Anyway, I know this wasn't intended to be a Horner-bashing thread, and again, if you can get past this issue, his work really can be very compelling and impressive.

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In terms of self-referencing or developing sound out of previous scores, Williams does almost as much as Horner. It's just that people are willing to accept it more.

Ha, brilliant satire!

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For the love of god, do we really have this discussion? :blink:

Can a free man not love Horner without having him size-wrestle with JW? Can a free man not love Dolly-Parton songs without being excluded from Gramophone's mailing list?

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For the love of god, do we really have this discussion? :blink:

Never underestimate the passion, repetitiveness, and irrelevance of Internet debates like these! That's what makes 'em fun. :D

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The Fury was Williams emulating Herrmann's Vertigo arpeggio (Goldsmith also did it in Star Trek: TMP). I think he just flipped around the Vertigo prelude. And yeah, he did compose a completely similar bit of music for Attack of the Clones.

For the record, Williams' music for fantasies and blockbusters has been very similar since the late 80s. You can trace the genesis of Harry Potter from Phantom Menace and through Hook, Home Alone and Witches of Eastwick. It could confuse a casual listener who is not very familiar with these scores. A fun game is to play music from these various scores for casual listeners. For instance, play Hook-napped and tell them they're listening to Harry Potter, then see if they believe you.

The "plagiarism" and general similarity in scores is fine as long as the music's good. That's how I've always felt. People also seem to have a knack for pointing out these similarities, so it gives you something extra to do.

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I've read again and again that Williams' fantasy blockbusters are very similar but I find again and again many little things in tone and other stuff exclusive to each one. It's not like they sound as if they are from the same score.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've always enjoyed Horner. Bicentennial Man (I heard bicentennial man first, which might explain why i prefer it over a beautiful mind, and i secretly prefer the movie too) and Avatar have been in my top ten since I first heard them.

I'm about to listen to Legend of Zorro on your recommendation Blumenkohl, thanks.

Gary.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Speaking of Apollo 13, I don't think any score has had an influence on REAL space music more than Apollo 13.

The smooth bass synths (that sound like smooth blaster beams) you hear throughout Apollo 13 are basically staples of movies/documentaries of NASA now.

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Apollo 13 is good stuff. Ripe with Hornerisms, certainly, but I think they serve the film very well, and I was exposed to this score relatively early, so it feels less derivative to my biased ears. Bicentennial Man was an early one for me, too. That one is SUPER derivative, but I still love it. Then there's TWOK, which I've always loved.

Regarding ETAndElliot4Ever's post from late March, there's no denying that strong stylistic tendencies can be traced through certain Williams scores. That's usually fine. The problem is when musical ideas start getting consistently reused in a pretty direct way, a crime of which Horner has been guilty for decades. Even TWOK, which will probably always be my favorite Horner score, borrows some very significant material from Battle Beyond the Stars. Williams' oeuvre as a whole doesn't have that repetitive flavor to it. Can you find striking examples of it? Sure. Indy trying to climb the vine out of the pit near the beginning of Raiders is music right out of the Death Star trench. "Across the Stars" is a distorted version of themes from Hook. Half of COS sounds like a temp track. But these are so relatively uncommon in Williams' work that they feel like the exception, not the rule.

Anyway, I was feeling very positive about Horner when I started writing this post, and I got sidetracked with a rant. :P My point is that Horner gets picked on for a reason. But he's also written some really brilliant music.

Over and over again.

;)

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Oh, Williams has certainly drawn not-too-indirect inspiration from a lot of classical (to use the term broadly) composers, too. That usually doesn't bother me unless I feel like it's somehow being done in a...dishonest way, whatever that means. :P Usually, I have some sense that it's either an intentional, respectful homage or a necessary evil prompted by the director's temp love. Or I just don't catch it at all, my knowledge of classical music being what it is. ;) Anyway, I've never been one to complain about this with Horner, mostly for that last reason. My issue is mostly with him repeating himself inappropriately.

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Of course, the first two excerpts are from the same score, the last is from a score in the same saga from just three years prior, and the others are from two scores in another saga, one of which was written the year before and the other of which was written the year after. Not exactly the broadest sample of his work. Most of these also score very conceptually similar moments in their respective films - a character is falling, or in danger of falling.

Now, if the B theme from the Star Wars main title were adapted directly from The Cowboys, and if Williams used the theme from Jaws in nearly every one of his scores, and if the main title to Catch Me If You Can were lifted directly from Cantina Band, comparisons to Horner would be sadly warranted. As it is, I can forgive him sometimes lapsing into similar tonalities for similar cinematic moments, and the occasional direct lift isn't going to kill my fandom. It's only a problem if it becomes a defining characteristic of the man's work.

EDIT: And people say his work all sounds the same because many of his most popular scores do have a fair amount in common stylistically. Personally, I like that he has a distinctive voice. I like Horner's distinctive voice, too. I just wish he would learn a larger vocabulary.

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I think really, the only difference between Williams and Horner is that Williams slices out 5-15 seconds at most for reuse, where areas Horner has been known to slice out 1:00-3:00 minutes of material for reuse.

;)

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That's one difference. And when you look at the average Horner score in terms of running time, the original-to-reused ratio is generally a lot lower than in the average Williams score. There tends to be a certain verbatim quality in many of Horner's reuses, too, whereas Williams tends to be more subtle. Again, there are exceptions, but they do very much feel like exceptions.

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But then, during any given year back in the day Horner was scoring 2-3x as many movies as...just about every other composer out there. That probably plays a big role in helping yourself to your own material.

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Except I've heard a lot fewer Horner scores than Williams scores, and I can still identify a lot more instances of direct self-plagiarism. He reuses certain ideas almost compulsively - it's not just a result of having to create massive amounts of music and inevitably reusing a few bits. Obviously, the more you write, the more you run the risk of reusing material, especially in consecutive scores...but with Horner, you can trace certain ideas cropping up over and over again as the years pass. That's another thing that makes Williams different - when he reuses material, it's not usually material he's already reused on numerous occasions, unless it's something really basic and flexible.

Just because there's always some risk of sounding like a fanboy in discussions like these, I'll reiterate that I adore a lot of what Horner's written, and it does bother me when Williams commits Horner-style offenses. There's a reason it took me, like, seven years to buy the COS OST, even though I knew that the album does a decent job of downplaying the directly copied material.

EDIT: Also, to be fair, my opinion might be somewhat different if I'd heard every single score by both composers, or if Horner (rather than Williams) had been my first love in the film score world. But I think I've heard enough to make reasonably well-informed judgments, and I try to weaken my biases by simply being aware of them.

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As sucky Horner sometimes is, he often betters his ideas in subsequent outings. When i started listening to soundtracks, i heard MASTER ALARM form APOLLO 13 and thought, gee, what great piece. As i slowly delved into his catalogue, i found, to my then-astonished disbelief, the same MASTER ALARM in scores like PELICAN BRIEF and SNEAKERS. But the best manifestation of that idea still is in APOLLO 13.

There are other examples, like the interlocking pianos from SNEAKERS, which found a new home in a BEAUTIFUL MIND or the synth choruses from TITANIC and and and. But so what, i stopped listening to the first(s) of those a long time ago.

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As sucky Horner sometimes is, he often betters his ideas in subsequent outings. When i started listening to soundtracks, i heard MASTER ALARM form APOLLO 13 and thought, gee, what great piece. As i slowly delved into his catalogue, i found, to my then-astonished disbelief, the same MASTER ALARM in scores like PELICAN BRIEF and SNEAKERS. But the best manifestation of that idea still is in APOLLO 13.

There are other examples, like the interlocking pianos from SNEAKERS, which found a new home in a BEAUTIFUL MIND or the synth choruses from TITANIC and and and. But so what, i stopped listening to the first(s) of those a long time ago.

Very well put. For me, the same thinking applies to the idea of Bicentennial Man main titles, which is much more greatly developed in A Beautiful Mind.

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You ought to lay all three of them on top of each other. You would have, what I call, the Horner Symphony.

That's why I've spaced my Horner collection out. I do have most of his pre-90's works but after that it's fewer works.

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I have his two superb Zorro scores, and while I downloaded the Avatar sessions, I'm not motivated to clean it up or listen to it. That's about the only recent Horner I have.

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Very well put. For me, the same thinking applies to the idea of Bicentennial Man main titles, which is much more greatly developed in A Beautiful Mind.

That's one case in which I greatly prefer the earlier version. The robotic percussion and pianos and everything work really well together, whereas in A Beautiful Mind, it just sounds like an inferior knockoff to my ear.

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Since the 90's began, I only have 14 of Horner's scores.

Post-Titanic Horner scores I like:

1998 The Mask Of Zorro

2000 The Perfect Storm

2003 The Missing

2004 Troy

2005 Flightplan

2005 The Legend Of Zorro

2005 The New World

2006 Apocalypto

2006 All The King's Men

2007 The Spiderwick Chronicles

2008 The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas

2009 Avatar

2010 The Karate Kid

And I also liked the horsemen suite.

Karol - who listened to his 3-hour Avatar playlist lately.

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