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Henry Buck

Indiana Jones Unreleased Music Resource

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Just watched the production diary, and in addition to the alternate version of "The Departure," it sounds like there's also an extended/alternate version of "The Secret Revealed." There's a high string moment that's not on the CD, and the final statement of Irina's theme is different, going through more of the theme instead of switching into a variation after the first four notes.

Additionally, you can get a clean ending for "The Chamber"; it actually goes into a low tremolo section, not the muted brass note that is on the CD, so either that brass note is an alternate passage, or it's not from that cue--I suspect the latter. I'm really confused as to where that thing goes.

If you are using the DVD rip for a beginning to "Through Eyes and Tears," you can also get the moment when Indy says "It told me to" clean.

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Additionally, you can get a clean ending for "The Chamber"; it actually goes into a low tremolo section, not the muted brass note that is on the CD, so either that brass note is an alternate passage, or it's not from that cue--I suspect the latter. I'm really confused as to where that thing goes.

I've talked to John Takis about this and he believes that "Hidden Treasure and the City of Gold" is a composite of three cues. The section from 0:00-2:30 is "Hidden Treasure" and the section from 2:40-end is "The City of Gold." The part from 2:30-2:40 is in fact part of a third cue meant to serve as the segue between "Hidden Treasure" and "The Secret Revealed," which if it exists is dialled out in the film. So the mixing of "Hidden Treasure" and this third bridging cue, even though it only lasts for ten seconds, is correct.

However, my take on it is that 2:30-end is all "The City of Gold," and the first ten seconds in the film are alternative or tracked music. It matches perfectly. And thanks to the "Ants!" pre-viz sequence we have a clean beginning for it.

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I can see where he would think that. What do you mean the first ten seconds in the film are alternative or tracked, though? I mean, which cue are you referring to?

The more I go through this and the bonus features, the more unused, unheard stuff I find exists that I really want.  I don't know if this has been caught or mentioned, but in the "Adventure in Post-Production" feature when they're talking about Michael Kahn, the music playing underneath is an alternate of the last part of "The Jungle Chase," and it sounds amazing.  I want it so bad now.  So so far there are alternate versions/takes of at least the following cues: "Spell of the Skull," "The Jungle Chase" (at least the final segment), "The Secret Revealed," and "The Departure."  Man...I really want a complete release now.

Clean material found: for those using in-film DVD rips, you can get a clean beginning for "Knowledge Was Their Treasure" at the start of the "Team Indy" featurette. 

And call me crazy, but I'm thinking it's just possible that between the pre-viz, the in-film DVD rip, and the Post-Production doc, we MIGHT be able to salvage some dialogue-free form of "Over the Cliff."  I'll have to play with it, but if you guy were only using Pre-Viz and Post-Production material, we may find that, though it has some SFX, the DVD rip may be the key.

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I can see where he would think that. What do you mean the first ten seconds in the film are alternative or tracked, though? I mean, which cue are you referring to?

I'm referring to the shot of Spalko finding the tracking device by the waterfall which precedes Indy and company running up the steps of the temple ("City of Gold"). I believe that those ten seconds (a variation on Irina's theme) are an alternative insert for the beginning of "City of Gold" - which would be 2:30-2:40 on the OST. The beginning of the "Adventures in Post Production" documentary supports this.

And call me crazy, but I'm thinking it's just possible that between the pre-viz, the in-film DVD rip, and the Post-Production doc, we MIGHT be able to salvage some dialogue-free form of "Over the Cliff." I'll have to play with it, but if you guy were only using Pre-Viz and Post-Production material, we may find that, though it has some SFX, the DVD rip may be the key.

Unfortunately, you can't avoid Marion's "Yes, dear."

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I'm referring to the shot of Spalko finding the tracking device by the waterfall which precedes Indy and company running up the steps of the temple ("City of Gold"). I believe that those ten seconds (a variation on Irina's theme) are an alternative insert for the beginning of "City of Gold" - which would be 2:30-2:40 on the OST. The beginning of the "Adventures in Post Production" documentary supports this.

I like John's solution better, since I've already used it in my edit as a bridge between The Gift and The Secret Revealed, using the clean version for the second statement.

But your theory makes perhaps more sense; and since there's apparently a clean ending to "The Chamber" (= "The Gift", right?) according to Delorean90, we can go either way in our edits now.

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there is a truckload of unreleased music in the documentaries themselves.

Are those in 5.1?

Nope. At least on the normal DVD they're in 2.0 at 192 kHz.

Standard DVD is indeed 2.0 but the BLU RAY has all of the special features in HD, so I assume the sound is as well. Anyone got the BLU RAY edition and willing to take a crack at it?

Just got the confirmation that the BluRay-docs are in 2.0 as well. Bummer.

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I didn't expect them to be - if they had been, it would have been quite a revelation.

Irritating thing is that it's pretty clear the entire score is properly mixed and available on a computer somewhere, and therefore would be easy to release. This strengthens my point of the advantages of unreleased music being available to download where a CD pressing would be too cost prohibitive.

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As far as clean DVD rips, aside from some tide sounds at the start, "Knowledge Was Their Treasure is completely clean.

I would like to thear that cue, and add it to the score, i want to have at least one rendition of Henry sr theme :)

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Just to drive us all even more insane, certain segments of 'The Secret Revealed' are alternate in the film to how they appear on the OST. The sprawling shot of Irina as the skulls begin shooting visions into her eyes is radically differently scored in the film itself. Of course, it's completely drowned up by sound effects, but if you listen to the scene without the centre channel it's pretty obvious.

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This strengthens my point of the advantages of unreleased music being available to download where a CD pressing would be too cost prohibitive.

The musicians still have to be paid.

Neil

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Just to drive us all even more insane, certain segments of 'The Secret Revealed' are alternate in the film to how they appear on the OST. The sprawling shot of Irina as the skulls begin shooting visions into her eyes is radically differently scored in the film itself. Of course, it's completely drowned up by sound effects, but if you listen to the scene without the centre channel it's pretty obvious.

In case anyone would like to hear this more clearly without removing channels, you can hear it at around 19 minutes on the "Effects of Indy" featurette.

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This strengthens my point of the advantages of unreleased music being available to download where a CD pressing would be too cost prohibitive.

The musicians still have to be paid.

Neil

Um, yes I know. But there are costs in producing a CD, and you're not committed to a fixed amount to sell.

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Could some kind soul please post how to create "They Stole The Children (Alternate)" using TD PANKOTSECRETS A QUI, TD PANKOTSECRETS B QUI, and TD_KALISTEMPLE_B_QUI? As in which sections to take from each, in which order?

Also, could somebody post how to combine the various pieces of the Bridge Percussion music into proper order? They are in TD BATTLEONTHEBRIDGE C QUI, TD BATTLEONTHEBRIDGE D QUI, TD BATTLEONTHEBRIDGE E QUI, and TD_KALISTEMPLE_B_QUI I believe....

It would be muchly appreciated, not just by me, but anyone looking to make a complete TOD set since it looks like the Concord set won't have these 2 tracks...

Thanks!

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I think I'm going to wait to edit those until we know for sure what's on the box set. But I'll gladly help with that later on.

If you are using the DVD rip for a beginning to "Through Eyes and Tears," you can also get the moment when Indy says "It told me to" clean.

Do you mean a clean beginning for "The Temple Ruins" from the album - or is that another cue entirely?

Additionally, you can get a clean ending for "The Chamber"; it actually goes into a low tremolo section, not the muted brass note that is on the CD, so either that brass note is an alternate passage, or it's not from that cue--I suspect the latter. I'm really confused as to where that thing goes.

Is that ending for The Gift in the production diary or on the DVD rear channels?

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Maybe, but the transition from the Raiders March to Irina's theme is awful. In fact, it's nonexistent.

That comes from "The Prequel School of End Title Composition". Do a reprise of a familiar theme from an older film then awkwardly stop so you can play the new stuff.

Neil

Technically, he did that in EMPIRE and JEDI end titles too, compositionally speaking - simply clunked from old material into new with no transitional material.

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Yes, ESB was more connected. I think what Henry is talking about, though, is the full-on stop. However, there is only one, which is between the Raiders March and Irina's Theme, but even that works well.

I think I'm going to wait to edit those until we know for sure what's on the box set. But I'll gladly help with that later on.
If you are using the DVD rip for a beginning to "Through Eyes and Tears," you can also get the moment when Indy says "It told me to" clean.

Do you mean a clean beginning for "The Temple Ruins" from the album - or is that another cue entirely?

No, not a clean beginning. There is still a section totally unretrievable due to dialogue echoes. However, you can get the first part of the "The Temple Ruins" cue from a rear channel rip, albeit with some SFX. What I'm saying is that if you're going to use that, you can get the swell from when Indy says "It told me to" in the Post Production featurette.

Additionally, you can get a clean ending for "The Chamber"; it actually goes into a low tremolo section, not the muted brass note that is on the CD, so either that brass note is an alternate passage, or it's not from that cue--I suspect the latter. I'm really confused as to where that thing goes.

Is that ending for The Gift in the production diary or on the DVD rear channels?

It was in the production diary. Now, I haven't listened to the rear channels for the climax, but you can mostly get a cleaner ending from the production diary. There is some talking over part of that string ending, though.

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Maybe, but the transition from the Raiders March to Irina's theme is awful. In fact, it's nonexistent.

That comes from "The Prequel School of End Title Composition". Do a reprise of a familiar theme from an older film then awkwardly stop so you can play the new stuff.

Neil

Technically, he did that in EMPIRE and JEDI end titles too, compositionally speaking - simply clunked from old material into new with no transitional material.

Nothing from the Empire end titles is drawn from concert versions of pieces. It's all specifically arranged to form one cohesive composition, and yes, there is transition material. While Jedi has pretty simple transitions, they at least work.

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So do the ones in KOTCS.

And ESB is arguably the most original of his end credits suites; most of the others have utilized at least some concert suite material, so in that regard, nothing's really going to stand up to ESB. It's not exactly a fair fight.

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So do the ones in KOTCS.

Well, it's just my opinion that the transitions between the Raiders March and Irina's theme and between The Adventures of Mutt and Marion's theme are badly done. I mean, there aren't any transitions. The music just stops and starts again at a completely different tempo. This can work sometimes... but not here.

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2:48 - The Raiders March ends concert like and gives out to a long pick up note, which hesitantly leads into Irina's Theme. I think it works.

4:52 -The last note of the extended Russian Theme serves as one of the first notes of Mutt's Theme, same tempo

6:12 - Mutt's Theme ends dramatically, a couple moments of silence, before the gorgeous strings of Marion's Theme swell and crescendo into the final statement of the theme

And then there's the usual transition from Marion's Theme to Raiders March.

And on the subject of end credit transitions between themes:

I know the prequels are commonly bashed for a cut and paste end credit job (and rightfully so), but I must say that I love the transition between Leia's Theme and Battle of the Heroes. Starting at 3:57.

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I suppose that the cues transition, but I honestly think John Williams could have written a few more seconds to make "The Raiders March" really segue into "Irina's Theme". I have no problem with the other transitions, and I really like the transition from "The Russian March" to "Mutt's Theme".

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Sorry to ask again, but...

Could some kind soul please post how to create "Indy And The Villagers (Alternate)" using TD PANKOTSECRETS A QUI, TD PANKOTSECRETS B QUI, and TD_KALISTEMPLE_B_QUI? As in which sections to take from each, in which order?

Also, could somebody post how to combine the various pieces of the Bridge Percussion music into proper order? They are in TD BATTLEONTHEBRIDGE C QUI, TD BATTLEONTHEBRIDGE D QUI, TD BATTLEONTHEBRIDGE E QUI, and TD_KALISTEMPLE_B_QUI I believe....

It would be muchly appreciated, not just by me, but anyone looking to make a complete TOD set since we know now for sure that the Concord set won't have those 2 tracks...

THANKS!!

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Henry, you are doing GREAT WORK in this thread. I hope you don't mind if I post a few corrections / suggestions:

2. The Idol Temple / Escape from the Temple

Concord d1 t2

mix Concord d1 t3

4. The German Sub / Ride to the Nazi Hideout

Concord d1 t18

mix Concord d1 t19

This is wrong. These cues SHOULD be separated... the DCC release combined them, but the Concord release got it right.

9. Indy Rides the Statue (alternative) - Concord boot t14

10. Indy Rides the Statue (alternative insert) - boot

Technically, I'd move the track from the "Concord boot" (aka the "fake leak") up into the body of the score... its not alternative, and is used in the film, and is the ACTUAL original "Indy Rides the Statue" track that JW wrote... the version we're getting on the official Concord CD is the re-score. And, the old-boot only version (which you list as "alternative insert") isn't an insert at all, it's an alternate version of the re-score.... hopefully this post explains it better than I just did

11. Searching for Dr. Jones - Concord d3 t7

12. Father and Son Reunited - boot

13. Don't Call Me "Junior"! - boot

14. Elsa's Betrayal - boot

It's a little strange to include both the original version and the re-scored version of the same cue in the body of the score... I'd move "Don't Call me Junior" to the end as a bonus track personally. Also, maybe rename "Father And Son Reunited" to something like "Escape Attempt" or "The Two Joneses" to avoid confusion with "Father And Son Reunited" from the Concord set... along those lines, rename "Searching For Dr. Jones" to "Father And Son Reunited" for consistency...

6. Death of Kasim - Concord d5 t10

7. The Other Jones - boot

Same comment as above, this way you'd have the original ending of the cue followed by the very similar re-score... I'd move the re-score to the end as a bonus track personally.

8. Belly of the Steel Beast

Concord d3 t15 beg-2:24

Concord d3 t14

Concord d3 t15 2:24-end

Technically, to make the track flow as one long piece you need to omit the first 11 (I believe) seconds of "On The Tank" to make the merge work...

15. Don't Call Me "Junior"! (alternative) - boot

We don't know for sure that the "Unused Indy Fanfare" (which I assume is what this is) is really an alternate version of that..... it could have been intended for some other scene....

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Same comment as above, this way you'd have the original ending of the cue followed by the very similar re-score... I'd move the re-score to the end as a bonus track personally.

But the Death of Kazim doesn't score that short sequence, or does it?

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Same comment as above, this way you'd have the original ending of the cue followed by the very similar re-score... I'd move the re-score to the end as a bonus track personally.

But the Death of Kazim doesn't score that short sequence, or does it?

Unless I'm remembering incorrectly (and I don't have the files at work here to verify).... Death Of Kazim is the cue the way JW originally wrote it, and then they recorded a slightly different version of the ending separately.

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I still think the ESB end credits is like the most perfect end credit suite around. The transition from "The Imperial March" to the love theme is absolute genius. And the final part is mind-blowing.

Not only is it the best End Credits ever written, I'd say it is one of the best cues ever written period.

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This is wrong. These cues SHOULD be separated... the DCC release combined them, but the Concord release got it right.

Hm, they are separate? I don't have the film with me to check. I assumed the DCC release represented the film mix alignments.

Technically, I'd move the track from the "Concord boot" (aka the "fake leak") up into the body of the score... its not alternative, and is used in the film, and is the ACTUAL original "Indy Rides the Statue" track that JW wrote... the version we're getting on the official Concord CD is the re-score. And, the old-boot only version (which you list as "alternative insert") isn't an insert at all, it's an alternate version of the re-score.... hopefully this post explains it better than I just did

I'm aware of how the cues were written... It's kind of a judgment call. I prefer 8M3 Fix to 8M3 Escape from the Pit (the only real misfire in scoring Raiders, I think), and it's the one represented on the official set. On the other hand, I suppose the second half of 8M3 Escape from the Pit should still be edited in - and at that point, it's better to present the original cue than to muck around with edits. Hmmm.

Good point on the insert; I think I mixed up terminology. It's an alternative... segment.

It's a little strange to include both the original version and the re-scored version of the same cue in the body of the score... I'd move "Don't Call me Junior" to the end as a bonus track personally. Also, maybe rename "Father And Son Reunited" to something like "Escape Attempt" or "The Two Joneses" to avoid confusion with "Father And Son Reunited" from the Concord set... along those lines, rename "Searching For Dr. Jones" to "Father And Son Reunited" for consistency...

Noted and renamed. But I didn't know "Don't Call Me Junior!" was a rescored cue. It's supposed to replace the end of "The Two Joneses" (or whatever, the previous cue that's only on the boot)?

Same comment as above, this way you'd have the original ending of the cue followed by the very similar re-score... I'd move the re-score to the end as a bonus track personally.

Is it? The film seems to have some tracking and editing involved. I honestly can't remember. Again, though, I don't hear what at the end of "Death of Kasim" was superseded by "The Other Jones."

Technically, to make the track flow as one long piece you need to omit the first 11 (I believe) seconds of "On The Tank" to make the merge work...

Is that how it's arranged in the film? To me omitting ten seconds just to be faithful to the way the scene was rescored (repeatedly) isn't worth it.

We don't know for sure that the "Unused Indy Fanfare" (which I assume is what this is) is really an alternate version of that..... it could have been intended for some other scene....

Just an assumption on my part, but it's pretty much the same as "Don't Call Me Junior!" in length and accentuation.

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Hm, they are separate? I don't have the film with me to check. I assumed the DCC release represented the film mix alignments.

Nope... absolutely should be separate. No idea why they combined them for the DCC release. I mean, for example, there are minutes of scenes between when "The German Sub" ends and "To The Nazi Hideout" begins.

In fact, there are almost no cues from Raiders that are supposed to be joined together. Only "The Well Of Souls" -> "Uncovering The Ark" (which WAS properly combined in the DCC LP... another step backwards in the Concord set), the 3 cues that make up "Desert Chase", and "Washington Ending" -> "End Credits" (which was of course messed up in the final film).

Noted and renamed. But I didn't know "Don't Call Me Junior!" was a rescored cue. It's supposed to replace the end of "The Two Joneses" (or whatever, the previous cue that's only on the boot)?

Correct. "The Two Joneses" is William's full original version of the cue, which is supposed to flow directly into "Elsa's Betrayal" ("Put Down The Gun"). It sounds great when you combine them, flows very nicely. However, somebody wanted Indy's Theme to play over the sequence where Indy shoots the Nazi guards, so they recorded a new ending to the cue (which sadly doesn't flow as nicely into "Elsa's Betrayal", as you can hear in the film). This newly recorded alternate ending was called "Don't Call Me Junior" on the boot.

Same comment as above, this way you'd have the original ending of the cue followed by the very similar re-score... I'd move the re-score to the end as a bonus track personally.

Is it? The film seems to have some tracking and editing involved. I honestly can't remember. Again, though, I don't hear what at the end of "Death of Kasim" was superseded by "The Other Jones."

Nope, it's the same situation as above. "Death Of Kazim" is William's original cue, which employed non-thematic material for Vogel's entrance into the tank, and a different fanfare as Indy rides by the tank on the horses. It also featured a reprise of the "Keeping Up With The Joneses" theme as Sallah tells Indy that the Nazis have his father "In the belly of that steel beast".

For the final film, the recorded as insert of the Nazi Theme for Vogel's entrance (which has never been bootlegged), and once again, pumped up the end of the scene with a newly recorded Indy Fanfare for Indy's ride-by on the horses. This new ending was called "The Other Jones" on the boot.

Technically, to make the track flow as one long piece you need to omit the first 11 (I believe) seconds of "On The Tank" to make the merge work...

Is that how it's arranged in the film? To me omitting ten seconds just to be faithful to the way the scene was rescored (repeatedly) isn't worth it.

Well, I suppose it's a matter that's up for debate. To me, it sounds as though the first 11 seconds of the recording are just like an overture, something to get the orchestra into gear before kicking into the cue itself... It sounds funny if you keep those 11 seconds in, but sounds great if you go right from 2:24 of Belly into :11 into On The Tank and then finish up with the rest of Belly. Of course, the cue sounds better on its own with the opening left in. Luckily in this day and age, it's easy for us to do both :)

We don't know for sure that the "Unused Indy Fanfare" (which I assume is what this is) is really an alternate version of that..... it could have been intended for some other scene....

Just an assumption on my part, but it's pretty much the same as "Don't Call Me Junior!" in length and accentuation.

I don't think it's similar enough to think it's another version of the same thing. I think it was another case that they were going to replace JW's original music with an Indy Fanfare, but in the end decided not to. I've just never bothered to examine all the cues and the movie that closely to figure out which.

By the way, don't forget all this information in compiled here as well:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pcw...Go2U0GCQLDFCKPA

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Okay, good to know about those TLC cues. Thanks. (Frankly, I'm glad I can take those silly fanfares out of the main body of the score.)

Technically, to make the track flow as one long piece you need to omit the first 11 (I believe) seconds of "On The Tank" to make the merge work...

Is that how it's arranged in the film? To me omitting ten seconds just to be faithful to the way the scene was rescored (repeatedly) isn't worth it.

Well, I suppose it's a matter that's up for debate. To me, it sounds as though the first 11 seconds of the recording are just like an overture, something to get the orchestra into gear before kicking into the cue itself... It sounds funny if you keep those 11 seconds in, but sounds great if you go right from 2:24 of Belly into :11 into On The Tank and then finish up with the rest of Belly. Of course, the cue sounds better on its own with the opening left in. Luckily in this day and age, it's easy for us to do both :)

Yeah, I feel it can work without cutting anything. Maybe if you cover the edit to "On the Tank" with a lot of reverb.

We don't know for sure that the "Unused Indy Fanfare" (which I assume is what this is) is really an alternate version of that..... it could have been intended for some other scene....

Just an assumption on my part, but it's pretty much the same as "Don't Call Me Junior!" in length and accentuation.

I don't think it's similar enough to think it's another version of the same thing. I think it was another case that they were going to replace JW's original music with an Indy Fanfare, but in the end decided not to. I've just never bothered to examine all the cues and the movie that closely to figure out which.

Same length, same unresolved sort of ending... it seems like a match to me. I mean, how many other scenes could it fit?

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I can see how in the film right before the film part of "On the Tank" starts there's a shot that can be scored by the opening of "On the Tank" - this is just guessing on my part though. So perhaps in the film they cut some more things and they had to cut out the Raiders March statement, or perhaps they felt it didn't work I don't know. But I think the film version is very effective, and the transition in the film from Belly to On the Tank has always been one of my favorites, so I'm going to edit it myself in that way.

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You're going to want to do "Indy Negotiates" into "Nightclub Brawl" into "Fast Streets" into "Map" into "Slalom" as well.... it will sound so awkward to have the music repeatedly end on a loud note... fade... silence... new cue starts.... instead of flowing the way Williams intended

Same with Saving Willie into Slave Children's Crusade into Short Round Helps... and many others.

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You're going to want to do "Indy Negotiates" into "Nightclub Brawl" into "Fast Streets" into "Map" into "Slalom" as well.... it will sound so awkward to have the music repeatedly end on a loud note... fade... silence... new cue starts.... instead of flowing the way Williams intended

Same with Saving Willie into Slave Children's Crusade into Short Round Helps... and many others.

With gapless playback, you could join the cues but still have them separate from one another.

That's what I plan on doing with my set...having them run into each other but still be separate at the same time.

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You're going to want to do "Indy Negotiates" into "Nightclub Brawl" into "Fast Streets" into "Map" into "Slalom" as well.... it will sound so awkward to have the music repeatedly end on a loud note... fade... silence... new cue starts.... instead of flowing the way Williams intended

You're right. But keep in mind that Williams intended his music to flow this way NOT for pure listening pleasure, but for underscoring a motion picture. It's a capital difference imho and that's the reason why the cues are presented separated. That being said, all of us have personal preferences about this and today's technology makes us able to create our own preferred listening version.

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With gapless playback, you could join the cues but still have them separate from one another.

That's what I plan on doing with my set...having them run into each other but still be separate at the same time.

Yes, that's what I will do as well....

You will still need to use a WAV editor to overlap the next cue over the last note of the previous cue.... but then you can make track separations wherever you want.

Sounds great w/ winamp or ipod, but I've had a problem when burning them to CDR after doing that... sometimes a little blip can be heard between tracks... anyone ever solved that mystery?

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You're going to want to do "Indy Negotiates" into "Nightclub Brawl" into "Fast Streets" into "Map" into "Slalom" as well.... it will sound so awkward to have the music repeatedly end on a loud note... fade... silence... new cue starts.... instead of flowing the way Williams intended

Same with Saving Willie into Slave Children's Crusade into Short Round Helps... and many others.

I'm planning to update it when the set comes out and we know exact track times for mixes.

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I am pretty sure JWFan crumbs made a clean DVD rip of that cue, as well as many other cues woefully absent from the original album. I believe crumbs said that he will send Personal Messages to those who want the "Expanded Edition" when the Indiana Jones Box Set is released.

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