'Hidden' statements of main themes that blow your mind when you discover them!

[crumbs 14,317]

I just had one! The music at the end of THE LOST WORLD, when Kelly's watching the television report with all the footage of the SS Venture out at sea, is actually the main theme from The Lost World, slowed down! It just blew my mind then when I sped it up and realised it's the exact same theme in a different key! Brilliant!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

augie's great municipal band

[MissPadmé 17]

The Raider's March Theme in the Track: "Main Title: Sout America, 1936"/ "In the Jungle" rigght after Indy disarms the guy with the whip. The heavy brassstatement - it is a rhythmic forshadowing variation of the Theme develops into a short motif on its own. Very Wagnerian - genius.

Dahh da daahhh daahhh, Daahh da Dahhhh

[Erik Woods 555]

I think it was pointed out to me here but the "Into The Trap" motif is actually first heard in the opening cue "Approaching the Death Star" I never put two and two together because of the slower tempo of "Approaching the Death Star" and the way the motif was spaced out in between statements of the Imperial March.

-Erik-

[MissPadmé 17]

I think it was pointed out to me here but the "Into The Trap" motif is actually first heard in the opening cue "Approaching the Death Star" I never put two and two together because of the slower tempo of "Approaching the Death Star" and the way the motif was spaced out in between statements of the Imperial March.

-Erik-

and THAT motif itself is a variation of the Imperial March's B Theme

also the "Yoda's Death" Theme, right after he disappeard is close related to "The Dark Side Beckons" Theme, which I always thought was cool

[Nick Parker 3,040]

The Jew Theme in "Immolation". I really did feel stupid when it took me a year to realize it.

[Datameister 2,044]

Jabba's theme in TPM, booming in the low brass during the fanfare that plays while he appears in the arena. I never noticed that until someone pointed it out, and now it's all I can think about when I hear that passage!

[John Takis 206]

The "Throne Room & Finale Theme" (the one that's NOT the "Force Theme") can be heard TWICE in Return of the Jedi. The more obvious instance is the end of the credits. The LESS obvious instance is "The Fleet Enters Hyperspace," where there are elaborate developments of it following the opening fanfares.

Shirley Walker was also great at this sort of things, as I pointed out in my multi-part review for Film Score Monthly. If you have La-La Land's Batman: The Animated Series set, you can check out these two mind-blowing examples from Disc 2: "Dent's Soap Box" is a heavily reworked version of Two-Face's theme, while "Harley's Party Source" is the Joker's theme in masquerade.

Oh ... and I should mention that I still remember being a teenager, listening to Goldsmith's Star Trek: The Motion Picture" and realizing that "Ilia's Theme" and "Vejur's Theme" are only a single half-step removed.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

The Imperial March in the Trade Federation Droid music in TPM, the aforementioned Approaching the Death Star/Into the Trap moment in ROTJ and Jabba's theme in the prepodrace fanfare

[King Mark 3,631]

when Kelly's watching the television report with all the footage of the SS Venture out at sea, is actually the main theme from The Lost World, slowed down!

Yes,JW was on to something...but it's too short then this segues into a so so re-recording of the JP theme .I be he could have orchestrated the LW theme to sound majestic like the JP theme

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Imperial March in the Trade Federation Droid music in TPM

Are you talking about the unreleased music that was used in TPM video game? Because that's awesome.

[MissPadmé 17]

when Kelly's watching the television report with all the footage of the SS Venture out at sea, is actually the main theme from The Lost World, slowed down!

Yes,JW was on to something...but it's too short then this segues into a so so re-recording of the JP theme .I be he could have orchestrated the LW theme to sound majestic like the JP theme

THis is really a great part! I sounds like the Jaws Endcredits speaking of style. It has the same feeling of peace and beauty

[tharpdevenport 4]

Shirley Walker was also great at this sort of things, as I pointed out in my multi-part review for Film Score Monthly. If you have La-La Land's Batman: The Animated Series set, you can check out these two mind-blowing examples from Disc 2: "Dent's Soap Box" is a heavily reworked version of Two-Face's theme, while "Harley's Party Source" is the Joker's theme in masquerade.

She fooled me twice on "Batman: The Animated Series" with hiding the theme. I felt dumb discovering both them later on, especially after having written those reviews for my site (btasscores.150m.com).

These two genius examples of altering the tempo and orchestration to essentially "hide" the theme were both on the LLLR 2CD set:

The Penguin episode score "Birds of a Feather"; the soft romanitic music as he and his date leave the resturant (right before the attempted muggers) ... is actually the Penguin's theme.

"Perchance to Dream": this one especially since it was practically slapping me right in the face every time I listened to it, yet failed to recognize it off the bat (no pun intended). Around the end of the episode where Bruce is in the tower and Batman swings in and we hear this dramatic theme playing ... it's actually the Mad Hatter's theme. Walker had been letting us know before the reveal, who the villain was.

Peter Tomashek did some similar stuff with his score to "Robin's Reckoning -- Part 2" (not on the LLLR 2CD set).

I also found David Newman will often hide his themes and motifs in unusual ways in his scores, ways which make you think they're not even there.

[Romão 2,274]

Shirley Walker was also great at this sort of things, as I pointed out in my multi-part review for Film Score Monthly. If you have La-La Land's Batman: The Animated Series set, you can check out these two mind-blowing examples from Disc 2: "Dent's Soap Box" is a heavily reworked version of Two-Face's theme, while "Harley's Party Source" is the Joker's theme in masquerade.

"Perchance to Dream": this one especially since it was practically slapping me right in the face every time I listened to it, yet failed to recognize it off the bat (no pun intended). Around the end of the episode where Bruce is in the tower and Batman swings in and we hear this dramatic theme playing ... it's actually the Mad Hatter's theme. Walker had been letting us know before the reveal, who the villain was.

In that score and episode, when bruce realises he can't read the newspaper (0:58 of track My Life is a Dream, track 26 from the second cd), you can also hear a highly distorted version of the Mad Hatter's theme

[jacksparrow900 32]

or what about during the death star attack in new hope when they have that short note from horror of dracula

[Joe Brausam 214]

or what about during the death star attack in new hope when they have that short note from horror of dracula

He quotes his Dracula score in Star Wars...? Odd, considering Dracula came out two years later!

[jacksparrow900 32]

or what about during the death star attack in new hope when they have that short note from horror of dracula

He quotes his Dracula score in Star Wars...? Odd, considering Dracula came out two years later!

the theme to horror of dracula with christopher lee and peter cushing

[Joe Brausam 214]

Huh, okay, never heard that one!

[Jacob 0]

The Imperial March in the Trade Federation Droid music in TPM

Are you talking about the unreleased music that was used in TPM video game? Because that's awesome.

I must hear this...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The Imperial March in the Trade Federation Droid music in TPM

Are you talking about the unreleased music that was used in TPM video game? Because that's awesome.

I must hear this...

i still believe its somekind of naboo motif, since it plays several times in the battle and in underwater adveture.

it is similar to the imperial march, in that statement much more because its a militaristic march. in the other renditions you would not say it was the imperial march.

when Kelly's watching the television report with all the footage of the SS Venture out at sea, is actually the main theme from The Lost World, slowed down!

Yes,JW was on to something...but it's too short then this segues into a so so re-recording of the JP theme .I be he could have orchestrated the LW theme to sound majestic like the JP theme

that's what i think don davis should have done in jpIII, put TLW theme with JP theme orchestration or viceversa. it could have been cool. and maybe less critisized than changing the key or a pair of notes in classic JP themes...

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Yes,JW was on to something...but it's too short then this segues into a so so re-recording of the JP theme .I be he could have orchestrated the LW theme to sound majestic like the JP theme

"Fawkes the Phoenix" not enough for ya?

[John Takis 206]

Shirley Walker was also great at this sort of things, as I pointed out in my multi-part review for Film Score Monthly. If you have La-La Land's Batman: The Animated Series set, you can check out these two mind-blowing examples from Disc 2: "Dent's Soap Box" is a heavily reworked version of Two-Face's theme, while "Harley's Party Source" is the Joker's theme in masquerade.

"Perchance to Dream": this one especially since it was practically slapping me right in the face every time I listened to it, yet failed to recognize it off the bat (no pun intended). Around the end of the episode where Bruce is in the tower and Batman swings in and we hear this dramatic theme playing ... it's actually the Mad Hatter's theme. Walker had been letting us know before the reveal, who the villain was.

In that score and episode, when bruce realises he can't read the newspaper (0:58 of track My Life is a Dream, track 26 from the second cd), you can also hear a highly distorted version of the Mad Hatter's theme

It goes beyond that. Consider the Mad Hatter theme as three "layers" of elements: the underpinning chords; the quirky, "bouncy" accompanying figure; and the melody line. Walker breaks down these elements and uses them individually throughout the score. Furthermore, these elements are sometimes warped or distorted (e.g. dropping notes out of the melody, leaving only the theme's "bare bones") for even greater flexibility. The entire episode score, as I argue in my article, can be viewed as a musical dialogue between the Batman and Hatter themes. The construction of such layered, "three-dimensional" themes and their deconstruction and ingenious reapplication are hallmarks of Walker's compositional technique.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes,JW was on to something...but it's too short then this segues into a so so re-recording of the JP theme .I be he could have orchestrated the LW theme to sound majestic like the JP theme

"Fawkes the Phoenix" not enough for ya?

The Lost World theme was not meant to be majestic, although Williams gives it an uplifting finish.

[Romão 2,274]

Shirley Walker was also great at this sort of things, as I pointed out in my multi-part review for Film Score Monthly. If you have La-La Land's Batman: The Animated Series set, you can check out these two mind-blowing examples from Disc 2: "Dent's Soap Box" is a heavily reworked version of Two-Face's theme, while "Harley's Party Source" is the Joker's theme in masquerade.

"Perchance to Dream": this one especially since it was practically slapping me right in the face every time I listened to it, yet failed to recognize it off the bat (no pun intended). Around the end of the episode where Bruce is in the tower and Batman swings in and we hear this dramatic theme playing ... it's actually the Mad Hatter's theme. Walker had been letting us know before the reveal, who the villain was.

In that score and episode, when bruce realises he can't read the newspaper (0:58 of track My Life is a Dream, track 26 from the second cd), you can also hear a highly distorted version of the Mad Hatter's theme

It goes beyond that. Consider the Mad Hatter theme as three "layers" of elements: the underpinning chords; the quirky, "bouncy" accompanying figure; and the melody line. Walker breaks down these elements and uses them individually throughout the score. Furthermore, these elements are sometimes warped or distorted (e.g. dropping notes out of the melody, leaving only the theme's "bare bones") for even greater flexibility. The entire episode score, as I argue in my article, can be viewed as a musical dialogue between the Batman and Hatter themes. The construction of such layered, "three-dimensional" themes and their deconstruction and ingenious reapplication are hallmarks of Walker's compositional technique.

Where can I read your article, John?

[Maglorfin 196]

I remember that when realising that Johan de Meij in the 2nd movement of his The Lord of the Rings symphony for concert band actually quotes a phrase from the 2nd movement of Vaughan Williams' London Symphony, I was so shocked that I needed at least half an hour to remember where I heard it before ...

[John Takis 206]

Where can I read your article, John?

If you're a subscriber to FSM Online, the three-part article/review (which was inspired by La-La Land's essential releases) can be read in Vol. 14, Nos. 2, 3 & 4. Incidentally, Part 3 includes some exclusive scans related to "Mask of the Phantasm" -- including the handwritten backwards name chart -- which were provided by Shirley Walker herself, at the time of my 2006 interview with her (which can be read in Vol. 11, Nos. 10 & 11).

I remember that when realising that Johan de Meij in the 2nd movement of his The Lord of the Rings symphony for concert band actually quotes a phrase from the 2nd movement of Vaughan Williams' London Symphony, I was so shocked that I needed at least half an hour to remember where I heard it before ...

Thanks for the tip! I'll have to look that one up. I quite enjoy the de Meij symphony, especially in its original concert band orchestration.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

The Imperial March in the Trade Federation Droid music in TPM

Are you talking about the unreleased music that was used in TPM video game? Because that's awesome.

1:35 to 1:40 of The Sith Spacecraft and The Droid Battle

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

I remember that when realising that Johan de Meij in the 2nd movement of his The Lord of the Rings symphony for concert band actually quotes a phrase from the 2nd movement of Vaughan Williams' London Symphony, I was so shocked that I needed at least half an hour to remember where I heard it before ... ;)

Thanks for the tip! I'll have to look that one up. I quite enjoy the de Meij symphony, especially in its original concert band orchestration.

The funny thing is: As far as I remember, the quoted bit was cut from the final version of the symphony and only popularly resurfaced with Hickox's recording of the original version.

[Maglorfin 196]

I remember that when realising that Johan de Meij in the 2nd movement of his The Lord of the Rings symphony for concert band actually quotes a phrase from the 2nd movement of Vaughan Williams' London Symphony, I was so shocked that I needed at least half an hour to remember where I heard it before ...

Thanks for the tip! I'll have to look that one up. I quite enjoy the de Meij symphony, especially in its original concert band orchestration.

I'm a huge fan of it, know every note by heart and own several recordings of it, including the LSO one, but I must also admit that the original concert band orchestration Rules Them All. ^_^

The funny thing is: As far as I remember, the quoted bit was cut from the final version of the symphony and only popularly resurfaced with Hickox's recording of the original version.

That's funny, I've never heard that before. It hasn't been cut in any of the recordings I own and from neither of both the study and full-size score that I have. Where did you ever hear that, Marian? There's also no reason to cut it really, I seriously doubt de Meij wrote it in intentionally, unless its meant as a tribute to RVW, but I'm sure de Meij would have mentioned it, were that the case ... I can ask him sometime though.

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

I meant cut from RVW's symphony. There's the shortened regular version that's been performed for decades, and there's the rare original version (favoured by Herrmann, among others) which I think was only recorded by Hickox, several years ago. I'm under the impression that the bit de Meij quotes (and it's such a direct quote that it can't be unintentional) only shows up in the original, uncut version.

[Maglorfin 196]

Yes, now I can also see on the Wikipedia: The symphony went through several revisions before reaching its final form. Vaughan Williams revised it for a performance in March 1918, and again in 1919–20. This second revision became the first published version and was recorded ... [...] Slow movement: 52 bars of the 1914 score were cut in 1933/36, chiefly from the quiet coda. Luckily, I've got Haitink's 1987 recording with the London Philharmonic Orchestra and no cuts.

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

Chandos claims that the 2001 Hickox recording is the first recording of the original version... so the Haitink would be the regular version (cut from the originally performed one). I just put in the Davis/BBC recording to see if the passage in question shows up there. That's an excellent set of all the symphonies that cost just about €20 when I picked it up - also includes an awesome recording of the Tallis fantasia (Gramophone called it the best).

My bad, it seems that passage has always been part of the symphony.

It's one of my favourite bits about both symphonies (RVW's and de Meij's) by the way. And I just noticed that I have both by the LSO (I still don't have the original band version of the de Meij piece).

[Romão 2,274]

Where can I read your article, John?

If you're a subscriber to FSM Online, the three-part article/review (which was inspired by La-La Land's essential releases) can be read in Vol. 14, Nos. 2, 3 & 4. Incidentally, Part 3 includes some exclusive scans related to "Mask of the Phantasm" -- including the handwritten backwards name chart -- which were provided by Shirley Walker herself, at the time of my 2006 interview with her (which can be read in Vol. 11, Nos. 10 & 11).

That was fascinating. Great article, John

[Maglorfin 196]

My bad, it seems that passage has always been part of the symphony.

Yes, seems that way. OK, I'm ordering the 2001 Hickox recording with my next Amazon batch, I've got to hear that famous original version.

It's one of my favourite bits about both symphonies (RVW's and de Meij's) by the way. And I just noticed that I have both by the LSO (I still don't have the original band version of the de Meij piece).

Indeed it's great, although it may seem small and insignificant at first listen, it sure leaves a lasting impression! Hell, it's only a little 11-note oboe solo phrase!

[John Takis 206]

It's one of my favourite bits about both symphonies (RVW's and de Meij's) by the way. And I just noticed that I have both by the LSO (I still don't have the original band version of the de Meij piece).

Haven't I been on your case regarding this before, Marian?

In seriousness, the LSO version was NOT orchestrated by the composer! It's essentially a "cover version." In my personal opinion, there's not much to recommend the LSO version when compared to the original. I own both, but after several attempts to warm up to the former, I only ever listen to the latter. But since you've been living with (and enjoying) the LSO version for so long, I'd be curious to hear your take. You just have to get a copy of the wind band version first!

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

We probably have been over this, yes. For whatever reason, I'm kinda wary of wind bands. That doesn't mean I don't want to hear this, I really do, I just never got around to it (and it's not the sort of thing you just happen to come across at a nice price in stores, unlike the LSO version, which I picked up for cheap in London).

[Maglorfin 196]

In seriousness, the LSO version was NOT orchestrated by the composer! It's essentially a "cover version." In my personal opinion, there's not much to recommend the LSO version when compared to the original. I own both, but after several attempts to warm up to the former, I only ever listen to the latter.

True, the symphony orchestra version was orchestrated by Henk de Vlieger (and conducted by David Warble). I also share an opinion that the LSO version is not exactly a masterpiece. Not that I want to take anything away from it - it's well played and interpreted, but the brass is often overblown and, truth to say, sometimes the LSO doesn't even sound like itself to me on this one (while on many other soundtracks and classical recordings, it's instantly recognisable). I think the whole recording job is somewhat weird and unusual (perhaps because of a limited budget?), and it was recorded at Golder's Green Hippodrome in London, which I've never heard of as a recording location before. I also think the end result would have been better, had de Meij both orchestrated the symphonic version and conducted the LSO in recording.

All in all, I do listen to it from time to time (and the L'apprenti sorcier is a welcome addition ), but the original wind version definitely remains The One to Rule Them All and is thus warmly recommended, Marian.

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

All in all, I do listen to it from time to time (and the L'apprenti sorcier is a welcome addition )

What?

[Maglorfin 196]

That doesn't mean I don't want to hear this, I really do, I just never got around to it (and it's not the sort of thing you just happen to come across at a nice price in stores, unlike the LSO version, which I picked up for cheap in London).

You mean this CD, don't you? In addition to 5 tracks of de Meij's symphony, there's a 6th track on it, which is Paul Dukas' L'apprenti sorcier (Sorcerer's Apprentice). It should be on your copy too?

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

Guess I got the budget release:

[Maglorfin 196]

Guess I got the budget release:

Oh, interesting. I've seen this cover before, but somehow thought it was just another wind band version. Well, you've been deprived of a fine L'apprenti sorcier performance!

[cactusjac2000 0]

I just had to post and say that, as a fan of nearly all the music mentioned in this thread, you guys have blown my mind with these observations! I'm sitting here trying to play these tunes out in my head and now I've got a renewed interest in pulling out my soundtracks.

Thanks for this thread, fellas!