Lincoln SCORE Discussion thread

[publicist 4,643]

Honestly, the same could be said on the other way round, i.e. people who never miss the occasion to roll their eyes and put labels like "fanboy", "reactionary", "hypocritical", "blind enthusiast", whenever someone shows a kind of spontaneous joyful (and sometimes naive) reaction to Williams' new music.

I think it's rather you just want to read stuff like that and react allergic to any rain on the jubilant parade - thus, any takedown strikes a double or triple, while every 'it's brilliant' goes down like a coke on a hot summer day.

It's a discussion forum, after all, and from what i glanced at here, most posts, good or bad, do not really add much worthwile to discuss, so both sides are even for me.

What's about these that makes them better than, say, War Horse?

Why is something small like The Tree of Life fun in it's Desplat ways but something small like Lincoln in it's Williams ways, isn't, even if it's also really beautiful?

If 'beautiful' is the single measure for everything in music, we could have stopped at Bach.

My question is simply, are we not to criticize at a certain point of redundancy, the sheer point in itself? Again, what else is a discussion board for? People lining up to say 'I love it'?

[Brónach 1,302]

If 'beautiful' is the single measure for everything in music, we could have stopped at Bach.

I thnk we both can agree that there's much more than Bach and that is a good thing.

My question is simply, are we not to criticize at a certain point of redundancy, the sheer point in itself?

True.

But that gives me several questions, starting with: why is Lincoln redundant, and True Grit isn't?

Again, what else is a discussion board for? People lining up to say 'I love it'?

People lining up to say "I don't like it", maybe?

No? Then we can disagree? Then why do you even say that in the first place?

[publicist 4,643]

But that gives me several questions, starting with: why is Lincoln redundant, and True Grit isn't?

I get the distinct impression of child nagging here, but anyway: i'd say Burwell has the big advantage of not having to score the same genre 20 times and working with directors who aren't afraid to move beyond well-trodden clichés ain't a disadvantage, either.

But if you really did listen to LINCOLN and now need me to tell you, this will lead nowhere...

[Brónach 1,302]

But, it's not like I was crazy about a Lincoln film either. I much prefer ancient history, so mistreated in films. But I enjoy it as music. I wasn't thinking on the film.

I get the distinct impression of child nagging here

I feel kind of identified with this description of myself.

[Tom 4,660]

One of Williams's great gifts is the ability to compose engaging melodies. At this point in his film (though not necessarily in his concert) career, the basic framework for orchestrations seems set. Producers, directors, and even his own sensibilities are not going to allow him to re-invent the wheel. However, one the things I look forward to are his melodies, which tend to be original, and based on the samples of Lincoln seem to be original and engaging. To expect much more than this in terms of originality is just not reasonable, and, therefore, to be disappointed that Lincoln does not break the mold in the considered sense is just not reasonable.

However, if there is any doubt that Williams the artist can compose truly inventive music beyond just new melodies, I would recommend you listen to his concert works, particularly his La Jolla Quartet or even his piece for solo classical guitar.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

This score is pretty disappointing.

Yeah, no power anthem, no electric guitar there.

Fuck off. This score is gonna be hailed genius by the fanboys, while it might be more of a retread than Tintin was.

Sometimes I think your considerations of retread are completely aleatory, and in a way, fanboystic.

Even if something was indeed a retread, that isn't necesarily a bad thing. There's the possibility of improving, of seeing what an older, more experienced John Williams does, of making it better. Or of giving us more of something some happen to love. Haven't you ever had that feeling with music, that feeling of "I wish there was more music like this?". Because I've had it. Lots of times.

To me the samples sound gorgeous. I can't tell if the rest of the score will be as neat as the samples but if one openly dislikes such completely inoffensive, well sounding music, well, I don't know what to tell you. Does it make your head hurt of anything? Did they give you the Ludovico treatment with it?

No where did I say this was a bad score; and retread has a negative connotation so if I wanted to address an improvement over a previous stylistic composition I would have. Im not against that notion. Either way full details will be in my review.

[publicist 4,643]

To expect much more than this in terms of originality is just not reasonable, and, therefore, to be disappointed that Lincoln does not break the mold in the considered sense is just not reasonable.

One should expect not much, but at least a bit more...and that's not unreasonable, it just sounds like it because the level of endless repetition flooding out of Hollywood is so high.

Williams complete turnaround in his 'classical' mode is of course noted, but i a way, i wish he would confront Spielberg with such concepts more in his filmmusic. Popular entertainment is where advancement and innovation is needed, more than in concert halls.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Fuck off.

I just saw your age on Facebook(since we have mutual friends). Sorry, my bad.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Fuck off.

I just saw your age on Facebook(since we have mutual friends). Sorry, my bad.

What does that have to do with me liking Lincoln or not? I'd say I'm one of a very very small number of people my age that listens to this much film music. My vulgarity was in response to you insinuating that I only like 90s Media Ventures scores.

[Incanus 5,715]

Jonathan Broxton joins the yea-sayers in MovieMusicUK review of Lincoln.

And my own small (and hopelessly fan-boyish) contribution will hopefully go online soon.

[crocodile 8,017]

I'm sure you'll drive us all diabetic with your fanboyisms.

Karol

[Incanus 5,715]

Too Much Sugar from Gods and Generals

[publicist 4,643]

Jonathan Broxton joins the yea-sayers in MovieMusicUK review of Lincoln.

And my own small (and hopelessly fan-boyish) contribution will hopefully go online soon.

Launching ye olde flowery-prose artillery, Incanus?

[crocodile 8,017]

It's better be longer than The Hobbit!

Karol

[Incanus 5,715]

Perhaps not so lengthy but twice as sugary and sweet. I will wax poetic in several paragraphs of the immortal virtues of this golden ambrosia that is the Lincoln soundtrack.

[alicebrallice 134]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

No I didn't plan to include any random feminine review paragraphs from a review of a made up score if that is what you mean?

[Jay 37,368]

Here's all my JWFan samples combined into one track by someone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBLiADALld8

[Koray Savas 2,251]

My review for those interested.

[Jay 37,368]

An odd review. You call it disappointing more then once, but then praise almost every aspect of it, and give it 3 out of 4 stars. Hmmm.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

My thoughts exactly.

But I agree with Koray, I would also like to have one more score with another film maker than SS before JW will retire.

[Jay 37,368]

Oh absolutely, that would be terrific! But that does not factor into whether or not Lincoln is a good score.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Is the score already available or why does everyone write a review already?

[Jay 37,368]

Sony sent me one to review for JWFan. Sony sent Koray one to review for Film Music Media. Sony sent many other copies to many other websites and magazines for review.

It goes on sale Tuesday, November 6th.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

An odd review. You call it disappointing more then once, but then praise almost every aspect of it, and give it 3 out of 4 stars. Hmmm.

It is disappointing. When it's all said and done it's just another John Williams score, just a little more quiet and lacking an emotional arc. It feels very distant. Still good, just not as good as I had hoped it would be. It'd probably rank around my 20-25th favorite Williams score. The last handful of cues are the only ones worth listening to, in my opinion.

I initially wanted to give it 2 and 1/2 but considering that's what I gave Tintin I decided to bump it up to 3.

[Jay 37,368]

!!!!!!!

Your 20-25th favorite Williams score is "disappointing"???? This makes no sense!!

~~~~

In other news, Mikko's review is now on the main page!

http://www.jwfan.com/?p=5143

[Koray Savas 2,251]

What's not to understand? I had high hopes for this score, it didn't meet my expectations.

[Hlao-roo 389]

In other news, Mikko's review is now on the main page!

http://www.jwfan.com/?p=5143

!!!!!!!

Your 20-25th favorite Williams score is "disappointing"???? This makes no sense!!

Personally, I've always been disappointed that Williams's E.T. score didn't bring about world peace.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

In other news, Mikko's review is now on the main page!

http://www.jwfan.com/?p=5143

!!!!!!!

Your 20-20th favorite Williams score is "disappointing"???? This makes no sense!!

Personally, I've always been disappointed that Williams's E.T. score didn't bring about world peace.

perhaps, but 30 years later it is still his finest and most emotional score.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I think it's rather you just want to read stuff like that and react allergic to any rain on the jubilant parade - thus, any takedown strikes a double or triple, while every 'it's brilliant' goes down like a coke on a hot summer day.

So...how many metaphors do we want to mix here?

To expect much more than this in terms of originality is just not reasonable, and, therefore, to be disappointed that Lincoln does not break the mold in the considered sense is just not reasonable.

One should expect not much, but at least a bit more.

Speaking for myself, I think it speaks to how highly I regard Williams as a composer that I always expect, or at least hope for, greatness from him.

!!!!!!!

Your 20-20th favorite Williams score is "disappointing"???? This makes no sense!!

In other words, Koray had anticipated that Lincoln might be great, and found it merely good. Would you rather he be jaded and not expect anything from the Maestro at all?

[King Mark 3,631]

I think that loud main theme in the Trailer is pretty memorable. I can't get it out of my head

[Incanus 5,715]

It is actually difficult to say which theme is the main theme of the score. The one you refer to is heard only twice on the soundtrack album and sounds really like music for a dramatic moment, I would guess the passing of the 13th Amendment. The rest of the themes,at least 5 more distinctive ideas, share almost equal play time on the CD, which might of course not give the most accurate image of how they will be featured in the film but shows how Williams handles them quite democratically.

But to me With Malice Toward None feels like the main theme of the score, especially since it is given such prominence by featuring the specifically named string orchestra and solo piano versions on the album. Williams also chose to play With Malice Toward None in the 60 Minutes Overtime interview, when asked to play something from the score although it might be that it was just suitably striking for the moment. Bit it sounds to me that Williams is reflecting different aspects of Lincoln in his themes and With Malice Toward None is just one of them. The heroic and victorious Americana theme at the opening of the first track could have more presence in the film and it certainly is the biggest and boldest of the lot. Be that as it may, With Malice Toward None has been playing in my head for a good number of days now.

On the whole the album is very focused, there is very little or no dead air or noodling, the entire score very melodic and the soloist performances are emotional and constant. Clarinet is ubiquitous, the warm tone of the instrument utilized to the maximum effect, Williams often pairing it with bassoon and flute but also horn. There is something very American about its sound here as well, the first notes of the first track immediately evoking such connotations, the melody's countours themselves so strongly Americana to my mind. That is why I say in my review that this might be his most Americana score on the whole as it is just steeped in the familiar melodic progressions, orchestrations and modes of the idiom from the first note and not necessarily just familiar from Williamss earlier works but from the style American musical vernacular, but the inevitably encompasses Williams' regal "state and nation" Americana, the gentle familial and "down-on-the-farm" type nostalgic Americana and the rural folksy Americana all in one package.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I actually really like the "With Malice Toward None" melody -- I'm glad that it *may be* used more extensively in the score, and I look forward to hearing it fleshed out on the album.

[Brónach 1,302]

I think that loud main theme in the Trailer is pretty memorable. I can't get it out of my head

This happens to me as well.

[crumbs 14,317]

It's amazing how the man keeps inventing these beautiful, memorable themes after four decades of writing.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I don't remember the trailer music at all except that it had piano and choir.

[Erik Woods 555]

I think that loud main theme in the Trailer is pretty memorable. I can't get it out of my head

Absolutely! Instantly memorable and is featured quite a bit in the score!

-Erik-

[Incanus 5,715]

It's amazing how the man keeps inventing these beautiful, memorable themes after four decades of writing.

It is indeed amazing and time and time again his clarity in thematic writing shines through. He is really one of the few, who at the moment are allowed to write these long well developed melodies and he has a gift for making them highly reconizable and memorable, just from a few notes.

I think that loud main theme in the Trailer is pretty memorable. I can't get it out of my head

Absolutely! Instantly memorable and is featured quite a bit in the score!

-Erik-

Do you mean the opening melody of the soundtrack on The People's House? The track contains actually two different themes, the first one appearing only twice but the second one makes regular appearances in the score.

[publicist 4,643]

From listening to the selection on Erik's show i would agree that within Williams' canon it is among the most refined Americana entries and despite the shopworn musical devices, he cooks up quite delicious delicate folksy themes á la the pastoral love theme from THE PATRIOT (which this score mostly resembles). It helps that there are less static brass chorales and all-purpose americana weapons like in AMISTAD or SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and more simple folk melodies (or maybe Erik just cut the boring stuff off).

Solo work is great, as usual - i'm more convinced that the film will suck, though.

[Brónach 1,302]

I love the warm clarinet solos.

[crocodile 8,017]

From listening to the selection on Erik's show i would agree that within Williams' canon it is among the most refined Americana entries and despite the shopworn musical devices, he cooks up quite delicious delicate folksy themes á la the pastoral love theme from THE PATRIOT (which this score mostly resembles). It helps that there are less static brass chorales and all-purpose americana weapons like in AMISTAD or SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and more simple folk melodies (or maybe Erik just cut the boring stuff off).

Solo work is great, as usual - i'm more convinced that the film will suck, though.

Yes, that is exactly what I like about the score.

Karol

[Brónach 1,302]

The strings in this score have Williamsisms, but also remind me of other composers every now and then.

[Hlao-roo 389]

It helps that there are less static brass chorales and all-purpose americana weapons like in AMISTAD or SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and more simple folk melodies (or maybe Erik just cut the boring stuff off).

Exactly.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

It helps that there are less static brass chorales like in SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

What? Static brass? Brilliantly written and performed brass chorales is one thing, among the many others, which make SPR so great.

Same can be said about the Lincoln. This time the performance goes even further.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Love the part at the end of The Peterson House where the remembrance them is played on piano.

[filmmusic 1,829]

Sony sent me one to review for JWFan. Sony sent Koray one to review for Film Music Media. Sony sent many other copies to many other websites and magazines for review.

That means if I start a film music review site/blog I will get Free Soundtracks?

GREAT!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Err, no. You need to establish connections with PR groups and composers. Also being a good reviewer helps. If no one reads your blog, no one's gonna send you promos to review.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Also being a good reviewer helps.

Is that what clinched it for you?

[BTR1701 59]

AotC isn't underrated, it is overrated.

Nixon on the other hand is a good score. At least I don't feel the urge to punctuate my ears while listening to it like in AotC.

How does one go about punctuating one's ears?

Do you shove commas and semicolons into them or how does that work?

"It's mostly bathed in reverential, Coplandesque Americana."

Why do people keep saying this like it's a bad thing? Copland wrote some fantastic music. Appalachian Spring, Rodeo, Danzon Cubano (admittedly not much Americana in that last one) are amazing.