Is Close Encounters Of The Third Kind the greatest John Williams score of all time..?

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

When you get stuff like The Terminal coming suddenly and randomly out of nowhere in his oeuvre is when you end up truly sold on John Williams.

Yeah, that happened to me sometime about half way through side one of the first Star Wars LP.

[Brónach 1,302]

I mean, there's this and this and this masterpiece, but then there's... everything else

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

It's perfectly obvious that "CE3K" is JW's greatest score. Any old fart could tell that on their first listen!!!

O.k., o.k., that comment might have been a tad overblown, but I really did think that when I heard "CE3K", back in 1977. The score just grabbed me, and has never let go (I guess it helps that "CE3K" is also my favourite film). Iam at a loss to find a score to compare it with. Perhaps "The Abduction Of Barry" could sound a little like some of the more "out there" stuff from "Images" (probably JW's 2nd greatest score) but probably more than any score he has ever written, "CE3K" has a real progression from A to B to C, rather than being a collection of very-well-put-together pieces of music. The fact that the score starts out cold and impersonal, and unemotional, and then transforms into something warm-hearted and hopeful is evidence that the score is almost a living thing, that breathes, and moves. You might get the impression that I rather like this score. People are perfectly entitled to like or dislike whatever thay choose, and this post will, doutless fall on some deaf ears, but I don't really care. For me, JW has done (and simply cannot do) no better.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I don't know what some find so difficult about just listening to things! I remember he said he'd only listened to Mars out of the whole Planets, and I imagine that's because he used it on a video. Listen to the rest, man! You'll like it!

Yeah, especially Mercury, Venus and Jupiter. I find the rest to be a bit more ambient and less dramatic, but also sublime.

[Brónach 1,302]

Saturn and Neptune are my favourites, I think.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Poor Pluto!

[A24 4,338]

Poor Pluto!

[Uni 306]

. . . but probably more than any score he has ever written, "CE3K" has a real progression from A to B to C, rather than being a collection of very-well-put-together pieces of music.

That may be the most concise and accurate statement I've read on why this score works so well. I'm hard pressed to think of any other works, even from Williams, that evolve like this one does. The motifs are simple, but that just makes it easier to observe the process of evolution in action.

Well said.

I don't know what some find so difficult about just listening to things! I remember he said he'd only listened to Mars out of the whole Planets, and I imagine that's because he used it on a video. Listen to the rest, man! You'll like it!

Yeah, especially Mercury, Venus and Jupiter. I find the rest to be a bit more ambient and less dramatic, but also sublime.

I refuse to listen to this until they add a piece for LV-426.

- Uni

[wanner251 17]

JW scores ARE superior to LOTR

NOW it's corrected.

I'll say it again... I'm a big fan of LOTR... even a fan of the scores... but seriously I just don't find very much musical depth there. The dramatic depth is there on all accounts, but musically it's just uninteresting.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder if jwfan.com should have a "Let's Stroke Howard Shore's Ego" section. LOTR seems a bit too prominent for a JW fan thread.

[Quintus 5,399]

In your edit of Nick66 you need to insert "musically" in between Are and Superior in order for your subsequent statements to make better sense and sound a little less zealous. But even then you're on shaky ground.

[wanner251 17]

Zealous is kind of a bad word to describe it, I think. It is simply a difference of opinion with the enormous glut of Howard Shore LOTR worshippers on this board. I have listened whole-heartedly to some of the best arguments that some of these people have made in favor of the music. Some of these were even in response to my question, "What is so great about the LOTR scores that I am missing?" Still, I am not convinced, though I really tried to "see the light" as hard as I could. In my view, they are the ones who are zealous, probably adding merit to something that resonates with them merely because the story, or stigma inside the story, resonates with them. In turn, I believe they give too much credit to a score that, while it deserves credit, is no more than what any other mediocre film composer would have done when dealing with such an epic story. Shore surely steps up his abilities, but from what? I just think people let their emotional ties to the story interfere with their judgments about the score. Anyway, back to CE3K........

[King Mark 3,631]

wait this turned into a LotR comparison thread again

[wanner251 17]

It happens too often.... :-(

[JoeinAR 1,949]

yes, but John's Close Encounters of the Third Kind bitch slaps Lotr and makes it cry.

[Uni 306]

Wow . . . that was out of character. . . .

- Uni

[Quintus 5,399]

Looks like KM has found a kindred spirit in Wanner.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Wow . . . that was out of character. . . .

- Uni

I'm sorry but sometimes I lack inspiration, but there is nothing wrong with tried and true.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its why i love you!

[Uni 306]

Tried to no end, yes. True? Not so much so.

- Uni

[tedfud 38]

hi

i'm new here, and so will behave......but IMHO LOTR is a long way behind williams in pretty much all respects. The ring motif is however stunning......

e

[JoeinAR 1,949]

love your name.

[Quintus 5,399]

You missed a trick there Joey - you should have replied to Steef with, "I know."

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You missed a trick there Joey - you should have replied to Steef with, "I know."

I know....

see what I did there.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lee, You cannot get between me and Joe!

[Quintus 5,399]

Jesus that sounds like your idea of heaven

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't judge us!

[KK 3,307]

Saturn and Neptune are my favourites, I think.

Mars and Jupiter are mine (yes, that's pretty unheard of), followed by Neptune.

Zealous is kind of a bad word to describe it, I think. It is simply a difference of opinion with the enormous glut of Howard Shore LOTR worshippers on this board. I have listened whole-heartedly to some of the best arguments that some of these people have made in favor of the music. Some of these were even in response to my question, "What is so great about the LOTR scores that I am missing?" Still, I am not convinced, though I really tried to "see the light" as hard as I could. In my view, they are the ones who are zealous, probably adding merit to something that resonates with them merely because the story, or stigma inside the story, resonates with them. In turn, I believe they give too much credit to a score that, while it deserves credit, is no more than what any other mediocre film composer would have done when dealing with such an epic story. Shore surely steps up his abilities, but from what? I just think people let their emotional ties to the story interfere with their judgments about the score. Anyway, back to CE3K........

Sigh...

Honestly, I'm sick of all this LotR comparison. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But theres no need to go presuming things about why fans like it and try to is discredit the merits of the score. You essentially said we like the music because of the film when the music is really mediocre (while insulting the composer at that).

You know what I think? Some people just can't take the fact that there are folk who enjoy LotR more than some of JW's work and holds to his standards. So they just take every opportunity to put the score and its composer down in any way possible. And whenever they hear reasoning from such fans, they attempt to discredit or simply ignore it. There's no reason for it. Some of us love the incredible compositional and thematic depth in the score (of which there most certainly is). Some of us love for just being great music to listen to.

But there's no reason to be presumptuous and claim that fans don't love the music for the music, because that's not the case. People need to cool down with the whole JW vs. LotR debate. It's getting incredibly redundant.

[Uni 306]

Sigh...

Honestly, I'm sick of all this LotR comparison. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But theres no need to go presuming things about why fans like it and try to is credit the merits of the score. You essentially said we like the music because of the film when the music is really mediocre (while insulting the composer at that).

You know what I think? Some people just can't take the fact that there are folk who enjoy LotR more than some of JW's work and holds to his standards. So they just take every opportunity to put the score and its composer down in any way possible. And whenever they hear reasoning from such fans, they attempt to discredit or simply ignore it. There's no reason for it. Some of us love the incredible compositional and thematic depth in the score (of which there most certainly is). Some of us love for just being great music to listen to.

But there's no reason to be presumptuous and claim that fans don't love the music for the music, because that's not the case. People need to cool down with the whole JW vs. LotR debate. It's getting incredibly redundant.

"Redundant" isn't the word I'd use, but the rest of what you said is spot-on. I have yet to understand the level of angst against this particular work (since those who are angsting so hard have yet to field a rational, even-headed reason for their distaste, and choose instead to simply rant). If you don't like it, you don't. Your loss. My admiration for it, and enjoyment of it, increases each time I listen to it. That doesn't make me wrong, any more than the opinion of those who dislike it makes them wrong. Why the need to belittle the music, its composer, and its fans—unless you realize you have no intelligent argument to make, so you have no choice but to resort to personal shots?

- Uni

[skyy38 21]

I've never heard the original album. The only version I have is Collector's Edition. But given my recent infatuation with both Jaws and E.T. short albums, which work almost as concert pieces, I'd like to hear this one as well in such a form. Having said that, the album I have is great.

Karol

Most of us owned the OSTs to these scores early on (back when that's all there was to be had), and pined for the day when we'd get expanded or complete versions. When that day finally came, many of us switched to the newer versions and sent the OSTs to the back of the bin—for good, or so we thought.

I've come to have a new appreciation for those older versions. They may not be as faithful to the film, but they offer their own unique listening experiences. For instance, my cassette (!) copy of the OST for E.T. busted not long before the 20th Anniversary release of the expanded score. So it made for an easy, and welcome, transfer. But after a while I started longing to hear the pieces again as they were originally presented—and I couldn't, because I couldn't seem to find an OST copy of E.T. anywhere in the world. It's like they all vanished after the new one came out. When I finally tracked one down (and it took several years, believe it or not), I celebrated almost as much as when the expanded version hit the shelves. "E.T. and Me" is a piece that ranks near the top among Williams' most beautiful, but you can't get it on the newer release. It only exists on the OST . . . making that version a commodity I never imagined it would be.

It's the same with Close Encounters. It doesn't contain "concert versions" like E.T., but it edits together separate passages from different parts of the film. I used to look down my nose at that—back when that's all I had—but after listening to "The Mountain" a hundred times, I began missing how it used to move seamlessly into the latter half of "The Returnees" to create a listening experience that's euphoric in its granduer and grace. I now keep both versions on my player, since I never know which I'll be in the mood to hear.

It seems everything has come full circle to the point where all variations have their own unique value and charm. That's certainly the case for CE3K . . . and I certainly would recommend you give it a try.

- Uni

Yeah, I agree with this, and I think it's particularly true of William's scores. To this day when I hear the Main Title on the original Star Wars LP (before it was A New Hope), I keep expecting it to segue into that quasi-overture rather than Imperial Attack. And while I love and prefer the Special Edition Star Wars CD releases for their completeness, the original LP was sequenced and put together in such a thoughtful, masterful way at the time, and I still find myself going back to it occasionally.

On the LP it DOES segue into that "quasi-overture", which is part of the end titles (whenever they begin) attached to the Main Title.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the original CD release is the same as the album I believe.

[Ollie 1,059]

Star Wars? Yes.

So was Varese's release of the original CE3K album on CD, to include the disco / pop version of the theme, although Meco's version is much better than what Williams came up with.

[Marian Schedenig 8,198]

In my view, they are the ones who are zealous, probably adding merit to something that resonates with them merely because the story, or stigma inside the story, resonates with them. In turn, I believe they give too much credit to a score that, while it deserves credit, is no more than what any other mediocre film composer would have done when dealing with such an epic story. Shore surely steps up his abilities, but from what? I just think people let their emotional ties to the story interfere with their judgments about the score.

That's why it's a great *film score*. It fits PJ's vision of Tolkien's Middle-earth like a glove, probably better than what most composers' scores would have. On a purely abstract musical level, it's no match for Williams' scores (nor Rosenman's LOTR, for that matter). But on a conceptual level, the way it matches its leitmotifs to its source material, and works with them on a dramatic level, it's first rate.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

[wanner251 17]

That's why it's a great *film score*. It fits PJ's vision of Tolkien's Middle-earth like a glove, probably better than what most composers' scores would have. On a purely abstract musical level, it's no match for Williams' scores (nor Rosenman's LOTR, for that matter). But on a conceptual level, the way it matches its leitmotifs to its source material, and works with them on a dramatic level, it's first rate.

Correct! Utterly correct!

Does anyone think that the opening of CE3K completely rips off Richard Strauss? Or is it original enough to stand on its own? I'm a bit conflicted... (as you can probably tell)

[Uni 306]

That's why it's a great *film score*. It fits PJ's vision of Tolkien's Middle-earth like a glove, probably better than what most composers' scores would have. On a purely abstract musical level, it's no match for Williams' scores (nor Rosenman's LOTR, for that matter). But on a conceptual level, the way it matches its leitmotifs to its source material, and works with them on a dramatic level, it's first rate.

And is that not the point, after all?

I've always found it a fine listening experience apart from the films as well (better, in my view, than Rosenman's contribution—but that's just personal taste talking). So it works as a score, and works as stand-alone entertainment. I'm sure the musicologists can find numerous flaws through their various processes of vivisection, but it does enough for me as is.

This is just me talking here, but we ought to be careful about setting our standards too high. If a score is required to best the best of Williams in order to be worthy of our attention, we'll wind up having to dump most of our libraries for not measuring up.

- Uni

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Star Wars? Yes.

So was Varese's release of the original CE3K album on CD, to include the disco / pop version of the theme, although Meco's version is much better than what Williams came up with.

no the original CE3K album, but you confirmed what I thought.

[KK 3,307]

That's why it's a great *film score*. It fits PJ's vision of Tolkien's Middle-earth like a glove, probably better than what most composers' scores would have. On a purely abstract musical level, it's no match for Williams' scores (nor Rosenman's LOTR, for that matter). But on a conceptual level, the way it matches its leitmotifs to its source material, and works with them on a dramatic level, it's first rate.

And is that not the point, after all?

I've always found it a fine listening experience apart from the films as well (better, in my view, than Rosenman's contribution—but that's just personal taste talking). So it works as a score, and works as stand-alone entertainment. I'm sure the musicologists can find numerous flaws through their various processes of vivisection, but it does enough for me as is.

This is just me talking here, but we ought to be careful about setting our standards too high. If a score is required to best the best of Williams in order to be worthy of our attention, we'll wind up having to dump most of our libraries for not measuring up.

- Uni

People here seem to undermine the compositional merits of the work as well IMHO.

It works as a great film score, great listen and generally a great piece of music. It's how Shore crafts his leitmotifs around each other and lays out the work as a large symphony that continues to impress me from a musicological perspective. You can hear Shore's operatic structures in the music and his keen ability to work around varying musical colours (something Rosenman's couldn't compete with in diversity). I think its detractors aren't fond of the filler material (which I understand) or perhaps his style, but that doesn't make it any less great music in my opinion. People here seem to dismiss those wonderful facets that makes LotR a great stand-alone composition (when taking out the filler music of course).

And I'd certainly put it above Rosenman's work. I was never his biggest fan, and while his LotR score has its moments, it's often just too ridiculously silly. The music is one of the things I cringed at in Bhakshi's film. I never thought Rosenman was a very good film composer imho, but I do like some of his atonal material.

Does anyone think that the opening of CE3K completely rips off Richard Strauss? Or is it original enough to stand on its own? I'm a bit conflicted... (as you can probably tell)

Using atonality like that isn't anything particularly new, but it definitely doesn't classify as a "Strauss rip-off".

[Brónach 1,302]

LOTR is a lot of fun as a standalone composition.

[wanner251 17]

Using atonality like that isn't anything particularly new, but it definitely doesn't classify as a "Strauss rip-off".

Ok... I just wanted to make sure I wasn't hearing things that weren't there....

[Quintus 5,399]

LOTR is a lot of fun as a standalone composition.

A lot of fun? I'd be more inclined to call it a sublime listening experience, magnificent musical storytelling.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Very involving!

[KK 3,307]

LOTR is a lot of fun as a standalone composition.

A lot of fun? I'd be more inclined to call it a sublime listening experience, magnificent musical storytelling.

I always consider the LotR scores to be one of the finest of examples of musical storytelling in film scores.

[Faleel 5,350]

I always consider the LotR scores to be one of the finest of examples of musical storytelling in film scores.

Which you will almost never have with the RC "Band of Brothers" approach.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Band of Brothers is a great score!

[Delorean90 42]

Using atonality like that isn't anything particularly new, but it definitely doesn't classify as a "Strauss rip-off".

Ok... I just wanted to make sure I wasn't hearing things that weren't there....

What Strauss would you be comparing it with?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Didn't he only do the theme?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

As far as I know, he composed it all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He only did the theme (and pilot, i think) for From The Earth To The Moon. that other Spielberg/Hanks mini series.

For Band Of Brothers he was the only composer (apart from source music, obviously)

[Quintus 5,399]

Poor Kamen, so young...

I really liked his sound, his harmonies were the sort that sent shivers.